Re: Acidic/Alkaline and Oxidant/Antioxidant

[Guest guest]

The issue of pH is still scientifically controversial.

I have seen a number of papers that indicate that

increasing pH (alkalinization) of body fluids may

reduce the incidence of cancer. The Mayo clinic

discounts this alternative therapy:

" Alkaline diet. A diet rich in certain alkaline foods,

meaning foods that aren't acidic, won't cure cancer.

Proponents of this diet claim foods such as soft

drinks and meats make your body acidic, allowing

cancer to flourish. They suggest eating mainly

alkaline foods, such as fruits and vegetables, and

restricting acidic foods. The theory that acid causes

cancer isn't true, and it isn't clear that what you

eat has any impact on your body's overall acidity or

alkalinity. " [1]

However, there seems to be new research that offers an

explanation about why alkalinity could prevent cancer

by enhancing the mechanism for apoptosis:

" A novel signaling pathway triggered by DNA damage

leads to the upregulation of the NHE-1 antiport,

increased intracellular pH, Bcl-xL deamidation, and

finally apoptosis. " [2]

It is possible that pH is another factor that we have

to consider in our quest for Optimum Nutrition.

Tony

[1]

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cancer-treatment/CM00002

[2]

http://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pbio.0050010

PLoS Biol. 2007 January; 5(1): e10.

Published online 2006 December 19. doi:

10.1371/journal.pbio.0050010.

Manipulating Cellular pH Suggests Novel Anticancer

Therapy

Liza Gross

" In the 1920s, when the genetic theory of cancer was

taking root, German biochemist Otto Warburg (winner of

the 1931 Nobel prize in physiology or medicine)

proposed that abnormal energy metabolism caused

cancer. Cells can generate energy either through

oxidative respiration in mitochondria or through

glycolysis in the cytoplasm. Warburg showed that

tumors have an acidic extracellular environment, and

he argued that a switch from oxidative respiration to

glycolysis—which produces lactic acid—sets the cell

down the path to cancer.

Though most cancer researchers think this glycolytic

shift is a by-product rather than a cause of cancer,

Warburg's work stimulated interest in the possibility

that there was some kind of link between pH and

cancer. And now, a new study by Rui Zhao, Denis

, and colleagues shows why manipulating the

intracellular pH of tumor cells may indeed turn out to

be a promising anticancer strategy.

[... snip...]

Though Warburg's metabolic theory of cancer never

gained traction, his work highlighted a possible

connection between pH and cancer—and now, 70 years

later, that link is receiving experimental support.

Many different tumor types appear to use Bcl-xL to

bypass apoptosis, rendering some cancer cells

resistant to therapy. This suggests that inducing

alkalinization—possibly by enhancing NHE-1 expression

or increasing its activity—to promote Bcl-xL

deamidation and thus apoptosis may prove an effective

strategy to treat a range of cancers. "

>

> Given that pH is actually a measure of positive ion concentration

> (inverse logarithmic), do acid-forming foods (i.e. high concentration

> of positive ions) act biologically as as oxidants, while alkaline

> foods act as antioxidants? This would seem to be a scientific basis

> for the philosophy of eating alkaline foods and largely avoiding

> acidic foods, in spite of the fact that the human body is capable of

> maintaining a relatively narrow range in pH. Does anyone have a more

> detailed knowledge of this issue?

>

> Thanks,

> -Dave

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Tony,

Just a question, How would I know my PH - where measured?

Regards

[ ] Re: Acidic/Alkaline and Oxidant/Antioxidant

It is possible that pH is another factor that we haveto consider in our quest for Optimum Nutrition.Tony

[Guest guest]

Saliva and urine are the fluids normally tested for pH. Many

pharmacies carry pH test strips. You can also buy them over the

Internet, e.g.,

http://www.ph-ion.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS & Category=205

The website above has a lot of statements about alkaline diet which do

not have much scientific support. Caveat lector.

Tony

>

> Thanks, Tony,

> Just a question, How would I know my PH - where measured?

>

> Regards

>

> [ ] Re: Acidic/Alkaline and Oxidant/Antioxidant

>

>

>

> It is possible that pH is another factor that we have

> to consider in our quest for Optimum Nutrition.

>

> Tony

>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

And since the environment in the stomach is quite strongly acidic -

in the form of hydrochloric acid, presumably in the interests of

effective digestion - it seems doubtful to me that when the food

exits the stomach it makes any difference what its pH had been

originally.

Rodney.

...........................................

> The website above has a lot of statements about alkaline diet

which do

> not have much scientific support. Caveat lector.

>

> Tony

>

> --- In , " jwwright " <jwwright@>

wrote:

> >

> > Thanks, Tony,

> > Just a question, How would I know my PH - where measured?

> >

> > Regards

> >

> > Re: Acidic/Alkaline and Oxidant/Antioxidant

> >

> > It is possible that pH is another factor that we have

> > to consider in our quest for Optimum Nutrition.

> >

> > Tony

[Guest guest]

Rodney,

You are right that stomach acid will change the pH of the food that

you eat. However, the buffering capacity of the body is eventually

affected by what is ingested and the pH of the body fluids will shift.

Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and other alkalinization agents have

been used to shift the pH of the urine and promote the elimination of

uric acid which causes stones, tophi, and gout when it crystallizes in

the tissues.[1]

Tony

[1] Marangella M., Uric acid elimination in the urine.

Pathophysiological implications. Contrib Nephrol. 2005;147:132-48.

Uric acid nephrolithiasis results from supersaturation, strongly

influenced by low urine pH, rather than altered urate turnover. Alkali

and fluid intake prove successful in managing uric acid stones. PMID:

15604613

More information about gout:

http://scientificpsychic.com/health/gout.html

> > >

> > > Thanks, Tony,

> > > Just a question, How would I know my PH - where measured?

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> > > Re: Acidic/Alkaline and Oxidant/Antioxidant

> > >

> > > It is possible that pH is another factor that we have

> > > to consider in our quest for Optimum Nutrition.

> > >

> > > Tony

>

[Guest guest]

Rodney:

If this were true, would it not also nullify

the beneficial effects of antioxidants? In other

words, would it matter at all whether we consume

foods high in oxidants vs. antioxidants?

-Dave

> > >

> > > Thanks, Tony,

> > > Just a question, How would I know my PH - where measured?

> > >

> > > Regards

> > >

> > > Re: Acidic/Alkaline and Oxidant/Antioxidant

> > >

> > > It is possible that pH is another factor that we have

> > > to consider in our quest for Optimum Nutrition.

> > >

> > > Tony

>

[Guest guest]

HCL is a strong oxidizer and yes a lot of stuff gets changed, into chlorides.

That's why many of your medications end in a hydrochloride - designed to get thru the digestion.

Regards

[ ] Re: Acidic/Alkaline and Oxidant/Antioxidant

Rodney:If this were true, would it not also nullifythe beneficial effects of antioxidants? In otherwords, would it matter at all whether we consumefoods high in oxidants vs. antioxidants?-Dave>> Hi folks:> > And since the environment in the stomach is quite strongly acidic - > in the form of hydrochloric acid, presumably in the interests of > effective digestion - it seems doubtful to me that when the food > exits the stomach it makes any difference what its pH had been > originally.> > Rodney.>

..

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave:

Clearly when the food that enters the digestive tract is deluged by

all kinds of chemicals and microbes in the mouth, the stomach and

the gut in order to make it absorbable, the stuff that gets absorbed

will not be identical to what was originally put in the mouth.

Presumably this varies for each ingested component. Some will

remain unchanged through this process, while others will not. In

addition, different individuals have different processing capability

for different nutrients, lactose intolerance for example. And also

different absorption rates .... one person here reported having a

low serum 25(OH)D level while consuming substantial amounts of it.

So I like to look at the data from *empirical* studies which try to

assess the effects of consumption of different foods/nutrients. If

the studies show that a given food helps then I try to pay attention

to it. But since we are all different, the findings may not, of

course, apply to me. I am not sure there is a better way, as yet,

but I am 'all ears' to suggestions.

This is a reason why blood tests for nutrient adequacy are helpful.

Rodney.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks, Tony,

> > > > Just a question, How would I know my PH - where measured?

> > > >

> > > > Regards

> > > >

> > > > Re: Acidic/Alkaline and Oxidant/Antioxidant

> > > >

> > > > It is possible that pH is another factor that we have

> > > > to consider in our quest for Optimum Nutrition.

> > > >

> > > > Tony

> >

>

[Guest guest]

While I certainly won't ignore the fact that nutritional needs,

nutrient absorption, etc. vary from person to person, clearly general

nutritional recommendations have come to light through a combination

of theoretical & experimental work, and epidemiological, and

controlled studies. For example, we know that it is a good idea to

avoid too much saturated fat, sodium, trans fatty acids, etc. If

acidic foods biologically act as oxidants, then would it not be a good

idea to limit consumption of those as well? So the question remains:

Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks, Tony,

> > > > > Just a question, How would I know my PH - where measured?

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: Acidic/Alkaline and Oxidant/Antioxidant

> > > > >

> > > > > It is possible that pH is another factor that we have

> > > > > to consider in our quest for Optimum Nutrition.

> > > > >

> > > > > Tony

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave:

I dunno, and it may vary from one acidic food to another. I

personally rely on the results of large studies that have found

benefits from a specific food for the majority of study subjects. But

as we know, not infrequently the results of one study are contradicted

by the next. And what applies to the majority sometimes will not

apply to you or me as individuals. This remains a very inexact

science.

But is there reason to believe, for example, that those who use larger

than average amounts of vinegar, lemon juice, vitamin C or wine have

problems related to lack of anti-oxidants ............ cancer,

maybe? Not that I know of, but has anyone checked?

Rodney.

..........................................

> Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

[Guest guest]

Rodney:

Yet another complication is the differentiation between acidity of the

food itself and the acid-producing effects when utilized by our

digestive system. For example, lemon juice and Vitamin C are not acid

forming, while other more acidic foods, such as fermented ones, and

many animal products, are.

Then there is also the complication of some acidic foods, such as

wine, having enormous amounts of antioxidants. Yes, certainly heavy

wine drinking has been correlated with increased cancer risk, but that

is true of alcohol in general.

So, I should clarify: I am referring to acid-forming foods being

unhealthy (not mildly acidic foods that are not acid-forming).

-Dave

>

> .........................................

> > Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

>

[Guest guest]

Dave,

What you are saying does not make sense. I think that you need to

brush up on your chemistry and biochemistry. Your statement that

" Vitamin C is not acid forming " is hogwash. Vitamin C itself is an

acid (ascorbic acid).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascorbic_acid

Here is a page with a basic chemistry glossary:

http://scientificpsychic.com/health/chemistry.html

The biochemistry of metabolism is quite complex. Many aspects of

metabolism are described in the Medical Biochemistry Page:

http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/home.html

For example, the metabolism of glucose (glycolysis) is described here:

http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/glycolysis.html

This page describes what happens when you eat carbohydrates.

Your statements that fermented foods and animal products are more

acidic has no basis whatsoever in science.

If you really want to know how the body really works, please read the

Medical Biochemistry Page from start to finish.

Tony Zamora

> >

> > .........................................

> > > Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony.

I suggest that you research which foods are acid-FORMING. For

example, lemons are not acid-forming, although coffee is. The end

result after the interaction with our digestive system is what is

important. There are many sources and charts of alkaline/acidic foods

all over the internet and elsewhere. Here is one from Life Extension

Magazine (you'll need to scroll down some to get to the chart)

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-017a.shtml

Thanks,

-Dave

> > >

> > > .........................................

> > > > Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dave,

The reference that you provide in lef.org lists the same kind of

information that is being advocated by some popular books like the

" The pH Miracle: Balance Your Diet, Reclaim Your Health " , " The

Acid-Alkaline Food Guide: A Quick Reference to Foods & Their Effect on

pH Levels " , and other books now in vogue.

I don't think that the claims made by any of these books have been

substantiated. If you are so sure that this information is valid

please provide some references from reputable scientific journals.

As a starter, just provide ONE reference from PubMed that shows that

lemons are not acid-forming or that shows that olive oil is an

acidifying food.

If you are able to produce such references, I will consider this more

seriously, otherwise I will continue to contend that most of the

advice about pH is just baloney.

Here is just one of the statements in your lef.org citation that makes

me dubious: " Allergic reactions and other forms of stress tend to

produce acids in the body. "

Really? In what part of the body? By what mechanism? What are the

chemical reactions involved?

People make up all kinds of stuff to sell books and worthless

nutritional supplements. This is not science. This is

pseudoscientific mythology.

Tony

> > >

> > > Rodney:

> > >

> > > Yet another complication is the differentiation between acidity

of the

> > > food itself and the acid-producing effects when utilized by our

> > > digestive system. For example, lemon juice and Vitamin C are

not acid

> > > forming, while other more acidic foods, such as fermented ones, and

> > > many animal products, are.

> > >

> > > Then there is also the complication of some acidic foods, such as

> > > wine, having enormous amounts of antioxidants. Yes, certainly heavy

> > > wine drinking has been correlated with increased cancer risk,

but that

> > > is true of alcohol in general.

> > >

> > > So, I should clarify: I am referring to acid-forming foods being

> > > unhealthy (not mildly acidic foods that are not acid-forming).

> > >

> > > -Dave

> > >

> > > --- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@>

wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi Dave:

> > > >

> > > > I dunno, and it may vary from one acidic food to another. I

> > > > personally rely on the results of large studies that have found

> > > > benefits from a specific food for the majority of study subjects.

> > But

> > > > as we know, not infrequently the results of one study are

> > contradicted

> > > > by the next. And what applies to the majority sometimes will not

> > > > apply to you or me as individuals. This remains a very inexact

> > > > science.

> > > >

> > > > But is there reason to believe, for example, that those who use

> > larger

> > > > than average amounts of vinegar, lemon juice, vitamin C or wine

> have

> > > > problems related to lack of anti-oxidants ............ cancer,

> > > > maybe? Not that I know of, but has anyone checked?

> > > >

> > > > Rodney.

> > > >

> > > > --- In , " orb85750 " <orb85750@>

wrote:

> > > >

> > > > .........................................

> > > > > Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave and Tony:

This raises a million questions in my mind.

If this issue is for real what does it mean? Does it mean that if

you eat olive oil your blood and/or urine will be more acidic than

if you don't? And if it does mean that, where is the evidence? And

if there is evidence for it, then what is the evidence that having

higher or lower blood or urine pH is beneficial or harmful?

Who did the tests of all these foods to determine if they are " acid-

forming " or " alkali-forming " ? And how were the tests conducted?

There is a fair amount of research about the measurement of the

glycemic index of various foods, for example, which has been posted

here more than once. And even with that evidence there remains far

from full agreement about the usefulness of GI! So where is the

equivalent research documenting the claimed " acid-forming " effects

of the ingestion of different foods? Clearly, without such

references one has to ask on the basis of what information were the

lists of foods you linked compiled?

This SOUNDS to me like a lot of " baloney " as Tony suggested,

propogated in the interests of selling snake oil. I am willing to

change my mind if shown the type of information which around here is

regarded as " serious evidence " . But without it I will continue to

consider it to be snake oil.

Rodney.

> > > > >

> > > > > .........................................

> > > > > > Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Tony:

It is important to note that in the FDA list of food

pH levels, shown here

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html

most of the fruits (and even many vegetables) are much more acidic

than most of the animal/meat products listed. However,

please see this study from PubMed that shows opposite results with

respect to resulting urine pH of test subjects:

-----------

" Urine pH is an indicator of dietary acid-base load, fruit and

vegetables and meat intakes: results from the European Prospective

Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC)-Norfolk population study. "

Welch AA, Mulligan A, Bingham SA, Khaw KT.

Department of Public Health and Primary Care, University of Cambridge,

Strangeways Site, Wort's Causeway, Cambridge CB1 8RN, UK.

Evidence exists that a more acidic diet is detrimental to bone health.

Although more precise methods exist for measurement of acid-base

balance, urine pH reflects acid-base balance and is readily measurable

but has not been related to habitual dietary intake in general

populations. The present study investigated the relationship between

urine pH and dietary acid-base load (potential renal acid load; PRAL)

and its contributory food groups (fruit and vegetables, meats, cereal

and dairy foods). There were 22 034 men and women aged 39-78 years

living in Norfolk (UK) with casual urine samples and dietary intakes

from the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition

(EPIC)-Norfolk FFQ. A sub-study (n 363) compared pH in casual samples

and 24 h urine and intakes from a 7 d diary and the FFQ. A more

alkaline diet (low PRAL), high fruit and vegetable intake and lower

consumption of meat was significantly associated with a more alkaline

urine pH before and after adjustment for age, BMI, physical activity

and smoking habit and also after excluding for urinary protein,

glucose, ketones, diagnosed high blood pressure and diuretic

medication. In the sub-study the strongest relationship was found

between the 24 h urine and the 7 d diary. In conclusion, a more

alkaline diet, higher fruit and vegetable and lower meat intake were

related to more alkaline urine with a magnitude similar to

intervention studies. As urine pH relates to dietary acid-base load

its use to monitor change in consumption of fruit and vegetables, in

individuals, warrants further investigation.

PMID: 18042305 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

-----------

*Higher* fruit and vegetable intake relative

to meat consumption clearly resulted in *less* acidic

urine in test subjects. So, a more acidic food clearly can be

less acid-forming than a less-acidic food once the digestive

system has acted on it, right?

-Dave

> > > > >

> > > > > .........................................

> > > > > > Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave:

Thank you for that paper. It agrees with your view that urine pH

will vary depending on foods eaten. And that the acidity of the

food is not well correlated with the resulting acidity of urine.

This is the first information I have seen about this issue. So it

would be nice, if possible, to see data from studies done by other

investigators that confirm this.

The investigators do not conclude that there are major health

consequences. Rather they seem to be speculating that testing urine

pH might be a good way to confirm the validity of stated food

intakes of study subjects.

Assuming this is confirmed, the remaining issue is the health

implications. The only consequence they mention is lower bone mass

in females, but not males, with higher urine pH. According to the

following paper, by many of the same authors, the bone mass effect

is not large. It appears to be 2% different for extreme quintiles

of urine pH. As previously noted here, the 'normal' seasonal

variation in bone mass at higher latitudes appears to be more than

four times greater than this. Nevertheless that is an interesting

finding.

PMID: 17413116

" More acidic dietary acid-base load is associated with reduced

calcaneal broadband ultrasound attenuation in women but not in men:

results from the EPIC-Norfolk cohort study. "

Welch AA, Bingham SA, Reeve J, Khaw KT.

" CONCLUSION: PRAL (potential renal acid load) was inversely

associated with bone ultrasound measures in women, but the magnitude

of the association was relatively small compared with other known

risk factors. Further longitudinal studies are required to establish

whether, in the long term, these small effects are important in

overall fracture risk in populations. "

If there are additional health consequences of more, or less, acidic

urine, beyond bone mass effects, it would be interesting to know

what they are. It would also be helpful to know the source of the

data for the 'acid-forming' foods contained in the links you had

posted earlier.

My impression is that most people on CRON eat a predominantly plant-

based diet. So this is another encouraging piece of information

supporting what many of us regard as the 'ON' part of CRON.

Rodney.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > .........................................

> > > > > > > Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave:

I just checked my most recent lab results and see that my urinary pH

was 7·5, against a reference range of 5·0 to 8·0.

Makes sense since I am not totally vegetarian.

Rodney.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > .........................................

> > > > > > > > Do acidic foods act as oxidants??

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Quick correction:

Where I said " higher urine pH " , below, I of course meant " lower

urine pH " .

Oooops. Sorry about that.

Rodney.

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@...>

wrote:

> Hi Dave:

> ............................................

> Assuming this is confirmed, the remaining issue is the health

> implications. The only consequence they mention is lower bone

> mass in females, but not males, with higher urine pH.

.................................

[Guest guest]

Dave,

PMID 18042305 is the type of reference that helps to understand the

topic better. The abstract defines an alkaline diet as a low PRAL

(potential renal acid load) diet. Foods that increase the [uric] acid

load on the kidneys are considered " acid " foods. This would include

nitrogen-containing foods (proteins and nucleic acids), but not oils

or carbohydrates because they have no nitrogen. Using this definition

is how fruits and vegetables which have a lower pH (more acidic) end

up in the " alkaline " category, whereas meat, dairy, and legumes which

are protein-rich are categorized as " acidic " . The categorization of

oils, such as olive oil, as " acid foods " in the lef.org web site still

does not make sense since oils do not increase renal acid load.

Item related to bone loss:

I recently saw a forensic anthropology program where they discovered

some remains with bones that showed a lot of demineralization. The

investigation concluded that the people died of scurvy. It turns out

that ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) mediates collagen synthesis[1], and

collagen is the protein that holds the bone minerals, mostly calcium

phosphate crystals, together.

Tony

[1] PMID: 15951132

Med Hypotheses. 2005;65(3):426-32. Osteoporosis, a unitary hypothesis

of collagen loss in skin and bone. Shuster S.

> >

> > Tony:

> >

> > It is important to note that in the FDA list of food

> > pH levels, shown here

> >

> > http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html

> >

> > most of the fruits (and even many vegetables) are much more acidic

> > than most of the animal/meat products listed. However,

> > please see this study from PubMed that shows opposite results with

> > respect to resulting urine pH of test subjects:

> > -----------

> > " Urine pH is an indicator of dietary acid-base load, fruit and

> > vegetables and meat intakes: results from the European Prospective

> > Investigation into Cancer and Nutrition (EPIC)-Norfolk population

> study. "

> > Welch AA, Mulligan A, Bingham SA, Khaw KT.

> >

> > Department of Public Health and Primary Care, University of

> Cambridge,

> > Strangeways Site, Wort's Causeway, Cambridge CB1 8RN, UK.

> >

> > Evidence exists that a more acidic diet is detrimental to bone

> health.

> > Although more precise methods exist for measurement of acid-base

> > balance, urine pH reflects acid-base balance and is readily

> measurable

> > but has not been related to habitual dietary intake in general

> > populations. The present study investigated the relationship

> between

> > urine pH and dietary acid-base load (potential renal acid load;

> PRAL)

> > and its contributory food groups (fruit and vegetables, meats,

> cereal

> > and dairy foods). There were 22 034 men and women aged 39-78 years

> > living in Norfolk (UK) with casual urine samples and dietary

> intakes

> > from the European Prospective Investigation into Cancer and

> Nutrition

> > (EPIC)-Norfolk FFQ. A sub-study (n 363) compared pH in casual

> samples

> > and 24 h urine and intakes from a 7 d diary and the FFQ. A more

> > alkaline diet (low PRAL), high fruit and vegetable intake and lower

> > consumption of meat was significantly associated with a more

> alkaline

> > urine pH before and after adjustment for age, BMI, physical

> activity

> > and smoking habit and also after excluding for urinary protein,

> > glucose, ketones, diagnosed high blood pressure and diuretic

> > medication. In the sub-study the strongest relationship was found

> > between the 24 h urine and the 7 d diary. In conclusion, a more

> > alkaline diet, higher fruit and vegetable and lower meat intake

> were

> > related to more alkaline urine with a magnitude similar to

> > intervention studies. As urine pH relates to dietary acid-base load

> > its use to monitor change in consumption of fruit and vegetables,

> in

> > individuals, warrants further investigation.

> > PMID: 18042305 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

> > -----------

> >

> > *Higher* fruit and vegetable intake relative

> > to meat consumption clearly resulted in *less* acidic

> > urine in test subjects. So, a more acidic food clearly can be

> > less acid-forming than a less-acidic food once the digestive

> > system has acted on it, right?

> >

> > -Dave

> >

> >