Re: Doctors: Thin People May Be Fat on Inside

[Guest guest]

Hence the utility of the tape measure applied to the midsection (the poor

person's MRI).

Maco

At 12:17 PM 5/11/2007, you wrote:

http://feed.insnews.org/v-cgi/feeds.cgi?feedid=150 & story_id=2929158

When seeing this newspaper article in my local newspaper (no I'm not

from Australia) I immediately thought of ya'all, my Cronie cousins.

:-) Actually I'm not even that thin on the outside - don't like to

think of what my insides must look like. Back to my CRON lifestyle

he thinks. :-)

From the article,

" When it comes to being fit, experts say there is no short-cut.

" If

you just want to look thin, then maybe dieting is enough, " Bell

said. " But if you want to actually be healthy, then exercise has to

be an important component of your lifestyle. "

Naturally this article probably does not apply to all of you of the

CRONie Ubermensch. (Also, please don't take this too seriously.)

a=z

[Guest guest]

Hi A=Z:

That is very interesting.

If you cannot tell who these fat-on-the-inside people are from simply

looking at them, then what other markers are there that can warn us

if we are among them?

I am wondering about blood pressure; body metric ratios; lipids;

fasting blood sugar or insulin; CRP; etc..

Anyone know? Or able to find out? I couldn't find a Jimmy Bell (or

even a Bell J.) listed in the Imperial Collge medical faculty.

Rodney.

--- In , " aequalsz " <aequalsz@...>

wrote:

>

>

> http://feed.insnews.org/v-cgi/feeds.cgi?feedid=150 & story_id=2929158

>

> When seeing this newspaper article in my local newspaper (no I'm

not

> from Australia) I immediately thought of ya'all, my Cronie

cousins.

> :-) Actually I'm not even that thin on the outside - don't like to

> think of what my insides must look like. Back to my CRON lifestyle

> he thinks. :-)

>

> From the article,

>

> " When it comes to being fit, experts say there is no short-cut. " If

> you just want to look thin, then maybe dieting is enough, " Bell

> said. " But if you want to actually be healthy, then exercise has to

> be an important component of your lifestyle. "

>

> Naturally this article probably does not apply to all of you of the

> CRONie Ubermensch. (Also, please don't take this too seriously.)

>

>

> a=z

>

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi A=Z:

>

> That is very interesting.

>

> If you cannot tell who these fat-on-the-inside people are from

simply

> looking at them, then what other markers are there that can warn us

> if we are among them?

>

> I am wondering about blood pressure; body metric ratios; lipids;

> fasting blood sugar or insulin; CRP; etc..

>

> Anyone know? Or able to find out? I couldn't find a Jimmy Bell

(or

> even a Bell J.) listed in the Imperial Collge medical faculty.

>

> Rodney.

>

Hi Rodney,

My practical suggestion is to hedge your bets by getting sufficient

exercise. The following sounds effective, " A Healthy Mix of Rest

and Motion. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/fashion/03Fitness.html?

ex=1178942400 & en=2df52e2521f40157 & ei=5070 & emc=eta1

http://tinyurl.com/32tk9t

" But new evidence suggests that a workout with steep peaks and

valleys can dramatically improve cardiovascular fitness and raise the

body's potential to burn fat.

Best of all, the benefits become evident in a matter of weeks. "

a=z

[Guest guest]

Certainly I am an " exerciser " -weighttraining & aerobic- but can we be

sure that burning more calories through exercise will access these fat

stores and reduce them? Obviously moderation in food consumption

doesn't seem to work because these are thin (lean?) people on the

outside. This is a remarkable discovery and perplexing to me. What is

preserving these fat stores? I would like to see what CRON'ers look

like on the inside.

Thin people may be obese on the inside

Medical Research News

Published: Monday, 14-May-2007

British researchers have found that those who control their weight

through diet rather than exercise are more likely to have major

deposits of internal fat, even if they are otherwise slim.

The researchers from Imperial College, London say whether a person is

thin or fat is really determined by how they appear from the inside

and is not based on external appearance.

Doctors believe that the internal fat surrounding such vital organs as

the heart, liver or pancreas, which cannot be seen from the naked eye,

could be as deadly to health as the more obvious external fat that is

easily seen.

The study which was funded by the Medical Research Council involved

800 people who were scanned using MRI devices and Dr. Jimmy Bell, a

professor of molecular imaging at Imperial College, says being thin

does not automatically mean a person is not fat.

Dr. Bell's " fat maps " taken since 1994 which were created from the

scans, show where excess fat was stored and it was found that people

who were thin were not necessarily trim; as many as 60 percent of men

and 45 percent of the women with normal BMI scores (20 to 25) screened

who were externally thin had dangerous deposits of internal fat.

The researchers believe that the " concept of being fat needs to be

redefined " as people who are thin outside, but fat inside are hovering

on the verge of being obese.

Experts say that it is at present unclear what the exact dangers of

internal fat are but many believe that it contributes to the risk of

heart disease and diabetes.

They say internal fat disrupts the body's communication systems by

sending mistaken chemical signals to the body to store fat inside

organs such as the liver or pancreas.

On a more reassuring note however the researchers add that internal

fat can be easily burned off through exercise or even by improving the

diet and they recommend cutting down on the calories and beginning a

physical exercise programme to ensure a healthy life free from heart

diseases.

> >

> > Hi A=Z:

> >

> > That is very interesting.

> >

> > If you cannot tell who these fat-on-the-inside people are from

> simply

> > looking at them, then what other markers are there that can warn us

> > if we are among them?

> >

> > I am wondering about blood pressure; body metric ratios; lipids;

> > fasting blood sugar or insulin; CRP; etc..

> >

> > Anyone know? Or able to find out? I couldn't find a Jimmy Bell

> (or

> > even a Bell J.) listed in the Imperial Collge medical faculty.

> >

> > Rodney.

> >

>

> Hi Rodney,

>

> My practical suggestion is to hedge your bets by getting sufficient

> exercise. The following sounds effective, " A Healthy Mix of Rest

> and Motion. "

>

> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/fashion/03Fitness.html?

> ex=1178942400 & en=2df52e2521f40157 & ei=5070 & emc=eta1

>

> http://tinyurl.com/32tk9t

>

> " But new evidence suggests that a workout with steep peaks and

> valleys can dramatically improve cardiovascular fitness and raise the

> body's potential to burn fat.

>

> Best of all, the benefits become evident in a matter of weeks. "

>

> a=z

>

[Guest guest]

A DEXA scan not only tells someone their percent body

fat but it also shows them the location of their body

fat.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

More on this..

Just because someone is lean doesn't make them immune to diabetes or

other risk factors for heart disease, " said Dr. Louis Teichholz, chief

of cardiology at Hackensack University Medical Center in New Jersey,

who was not involved in Bell's research.

Even people with normal Body Mass Index scores — a standard obesity

measure that divides your weight by the square of your height — can

have surprising levels of fat deposits inside.

Of the women scanned by Bell and his colleagues, as many as 45% of

those with normal BMI scores (20 to 25) actually had excessive levels

of internal fat. Among men, the percentage was nearly 60%.

Relating the news to what Bell calls " TOFIs " — people who are " thin

outside, fat inside " — is rarely uneventful. " The thinner people are,

the bigger the surprise, " he said, adding the researchers even found

TOFIs among people who are professional models.

According to Bell, people who are fat on the inside are essentially on

the threshold of being obese. They eat too many fatty, sugary foods —

and exercise too little to work it off — but they are not eating

enough to actually be fat. Scientists believe we naturally accumulate

fat around the belly first, but at some point, the body may start

storing it elsewhere.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-05-10-thin-fat-people_N.htm?csp=34

More..

According to the data, people who maintain their weight through diet

rather than exercise are likely to have major deposits of internal

fat, even if they are otherwise slim. " The whole concept of being fat

needs to be redefined, " said Bell, whose research is funded by

Britain's Medical Research Council.

http://news./s/ap/20070511/ap_on_he_me/thin_fat_people

[Guest guest]

I'm sure all of this is very interesting, but I hope that people aren't thinking this is applicable to CRONies. In a way, this is like talking about Chevys on a Ford list. Especially, statements like this:

"people who maintain their weight through diet rather than exercise are likely to have major deposits of internal fat, even if they are otherwise slim. "

This is not because they are "maintaining their weight through diet", it's because they are eating junk food, just not enough of it to put on weight. Typically, the *source* of calories is not addressed.

::sigh:: Infotainment for the increasingly massive masses...

chris

More on this.. Just because someone is lean doesn't make them immune to diabetes or other risk factors for heart disease," said Dr. Louis Teichholz, chief of cardiology at Hackensack University Medical Center in New Jersey, who was not involved in Bell's research. Even people with normal Body Mass Index scores — a standard obesity measure that divides your weight by the square of your height — can have surprising levels of fat deposits inside. Of the women scanned by Bell and his colleagues, as many as 45% of those with normal BMI scores (20 to 25) actually had excessive levels of internal fat. Among men, the percentage was nearly 60%. Relating the news to what Bell calls "TOFIs" — people who are "thin outside, fat inside" — is rarely uneventful. "The thinner people are, the bigger the surprise," he said, adding the researchers even found TOFIs among people who are professional

models. According to Bell, people who are fat on the inside are essentially on the threshold of being obese. They eat too many fatty, sugary foods — and exercise too little to work it off — but they are not eating enough to actually be fat. Scientists believe we naturally accumulate fat around the belly first, but at some point, the body may start storing it elsewhere. More.. According to the data, people who maintain their weight through diet rather than exercise are likely to have major deposits of internal fat, even if they are otherwise slim. "The whole concept of being fat needs to be redefined," said Bell, whose research is funded by Britain's Medical Research Council. http://news. / s/ap/20070511/ ap_on_he_ me/thin_fat_ people

[Guest guest]

what does the source of a calorie have to do with fat deposits?

A calorie is a calorie, is it not? Whether I consume too many calories

from chocolate or an equal # from spinach, what difference does it

make? Many of these people have normal BMI, and many a CRON'er have

normal BMI's (20-25).

Seems to me that those lean people with normal BMI, including those

who CRON, that discover they have these fat deposits will have to get

a LOT leaner to get rid of them. Am i missing smthg?

>

> I'm sure all of this is very interesting, but I hope that people

aren't thinking this is applicable to CRONies. In a way, this is like

talking about Chevys on a Ford list. Especially, statements like this:

> " people who maintain their weight through diet

> rather than exercise are likely to have major deposits of internal

> fat, even if they are otherwise slim. "

>

> This is not because they are " maintaining their weight through

diet " , it's because they are eating junk food, just not enough of it

to put on weight. Typically, the *source* of calories is not addressed.

>

> ::sigh:: Infotainment for the increasingly massive masses...

>

> chris

>

>

>

>

> More on this..

>

> Just because someone is lean doesn't make them immune to diabetes or

> other risk factors for heart disease, " said Dr. Louis Teichholz, chief

> of cardiology at Hackensack University Medical Center in New Jersey,

> who was not involved in Bell's research.

>

> Even people with normal Body Mass Index scores — a standard obesity

> measure that divides your weight by the square of your height — can

> have surprising levels of fat deposits inside.

>

> Of the women scanned by Bell and his colleagues, as many as 45% of

> those with normal BMI scores (20 to 25) actually had excessive levels

> of internal fat. Among men, the percentage was nearly 60%.

>

> Relating the news to what Bell calls " TOFIs " — people who are " thin

> outside, fat inside " — is rarely uneventful. " The thinner people are,

> the bigger the surprise, " he said, adding the researchers even found

> TOFIs among people who are professional models.

>

> According to Bell, people who are fat on the inside are essentially on

> the threshold of being obese. They eat too many fatty, sugary foods —

> and exercise too little to work it off — but they are not eating

> enough to actually be fat. Scientists believe we naturally accumulate

> fat around the belly first, but at some point, the body may start

> storing it elsewhere.

>

>

> More..

>

> According to the data, people who maintain their weight through diet

> rather than exercise are likely to have major deposits of internal

> fat, even if they are otherwise slim. " The whole concept of being fat

> needs to be redefined, " said Bell, whose research is funded by

> Britain's Medical Research Council.

> http://news. / s/ap/20070511/ ap_on_he_ me/thin_fat_ people

>

[Guest guest]

Hi All, When I switched from ad libitum eating to a Pritikin diet, my blood lipids responded most favorably, without CR. I had a BMI of 22.4 before the Pritikin diet, and no change of significance before CR. I ate sweets and grains to attempt to prevent CR. Therefore, yes, the source of the calories matters. I would also suggest that it is not "Infotainment for the increasingly massive masses", but is rather "Infotainment for the pro-exercise lobby".bill4cr <bill4cr@...> wrote: what does the source of a calorie have to do with fat deposits?A calorie is a calorie, is it not? Whether I consume too many caloriesfrom chocolate or an equal # from spinach, what difference does itmake? Many of these people have normal BMI, and many a CRON'er havenormal BMI's (20-25).Seems to me that those lean people with normal BMI, including thosewho CRON, that discover they have these fat deposits will have to geta LOT leaner to get rid of them. Am i missing smthg?>> I'm sure all of this is very interesting, but I hope that peoplearen't thinking this is applicable to CRONies. In a way, this is liketalking about Chevys on a Ford list. Especially, statements like this:> "people who

maintain their weight through diet > rather than exercise are likely to have major deposits of internal > fat, even if they are otherwise slim. "> > This is not because they are "maintaining their weight throughdiet", it's because they are eating junk food, just not enough of itto put on weight. Typically, the *source* of calories is not addressed.> > ::sigh:: Infotainment for the increasingly massive masses...> > chris> > > > > More on this.. > > Just because someone is lean doesn't make them immune to diabetes or > other risk factors for heart disease," said Dr. Louis Teichholz, chief > of cardiology at Hackensack University Medical Center in New Jersey, > who was not involved in Bell's research. > > Even people with normal Body Mass Index scores — a standard obesity > measure that divides your weight by the square of

your height — can > have surprising levels of fat deposits inside. > > Of the women scanned by Bell and his colleagues, as many as 45% of > those with normal BMI scores (20 to 25) actually had excessive levels > of internal fat. Among men, the percentage was nearly 60%. > > Relating the news to what Bell calls "TOFIs" — people who are "thin > outside, fat inside" — is rarely uneventful. "The thinner people are, > the bigger the surprise," he said, adding the researchers even found > TOFIs among people who are professional models. > > According to Bell, people who are fat on the inside are essentially on > the threshold of being obese. They eat too many fatty, sugary foods — > and exercise too little to work it off — but they are not eating > enough to actually be fat. Scientists believe we naturally accumulate > fat around the belly first, but at some point, the

body may start > storing it elsewhere. > > > More.. > > According to the data, people who maintain their weight through diet > rather than exercise are likely to have major deposits of internal > fat, even if they are otherwise slim. "The whole concept of being fat > needs to be redefined," said Bell, whose research is funded by > Britain's Medical Research Council. > http://news. / s/ap/20070511/ ap_on_he_ me/thin_fat_ people>-- Al Pater, PhD; email: Alpater@...

Luggage? GPS? Comic books?

Check out fitting gifts for grads at Search.

[Guest guest]

bill4cr wrote: what does the source of a calorie have to do with fat deposits?

Well, it *could* have a lot to do with it, but the possibility isn't even considered in the article. The study doesn't seem to differentiate between healthy and non-healthy eaters. I know people who don't *look* fat. In fact, they look quite lean, but "optimal nutrition" is not in their vocabularies. These are the types of people that the article is about (IMO).

A calorie is a calorie, is it not? Whether I consume too many calories from chocolate or an equal # from spinach, what difference does it make?

Well, as soon as we meet someone who is gaining weight from eating too much spinach, we'll ask him!

Seems to me that those lean people with normal BMI, including those who CRON, that discover they have these fat deposits will have to get a LOT leaner to get rid of them. Am i missing smthg?

I don't know. The thing that really got up my nose about the article was that it (once again) glorified exercise at the expense of careful eating. The fact that it seemed to draw its conclusion without taking into consideration *what* was being eaten, to me, means incomplete data, which, in turn, means a questionable conclusion.

CRONies rarely rely on BMI, anyway, as the measure of their health. If the point of the article was that BMI is a blunt tool, then I agree wholeheartedly. That's not what they said, though.

best regards,

chris

[Guest guest]

According to the data, people who maintain their

> weight through diet

> rather than exercise are likely to have major

> deposits of internal

> fat, even if they are otherwise slim. " The whole

> concept of being fat

> needs to be redefined, " said Bell, whose research is

> funded by

> Britain's Medical Research Council.

This may be saying the exact opposite.

Web address:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070513075041.htm

Source: University Of Alabama At Birmingham

Date: May 14, 2007

More on: Diet and Weight Loss, Dieting and Weight

Control, Fitness, Obesity, Nutrition Research, Men's

Health

Cutting Calories, Not Exercise, Plays Bigger Role In

Maintaining Weight Loss

Science Daily — The weight loss mantra of UAB’s

(University of Alabama at Birmingham) EatRight Weight

Management system is ‘reduce calories and increase

exercise’. But new research from EatRight suggests

that for those who have been successful at losing

weight, reducing calories is an effective way to keep

weight off, especially when it is difficult to find

time to exercise. In findings published in the May

issue of Obesity, the researchers report that 80

percent of EatRight participants maintain their weight

loss during two years of follow up, and most do it

primarily by sticking to a low calorie, low energy

density diet.

“Our results show that individuals who successfully

maintain body weight after completing EatRight consume

fewer calories and have a lower energy density dietary

pattern than those who do not maintain body weight,”

said Jamy Ard, M.D., assistant professor of nutrition

sciences and medical director of EatRight Weight

Management Services. “This calorie control led to

successful weight maintenance despite the fact that

these individuals did not meet recommended exercise

levels.”

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

What really irks me about this article is that it pontificates about

a whole load of stuff but provides no information that would convince

me of the validity of any of it. Whether that is the fault of the

journalist, or the researchers, or the fact there isn't any evidence,

I cannot tell from what was written. And, as previously noted, there

is no " Jimmy Bell " of " Bell J " listed in the faculty of medicine at

Imperial College London. Was he very recently fired, I wonder?

More ............... below:

> Thin people may be obese on the inside

> Medical Research News

> Published: Monday, 14-May-2007

>

> British researchers have found that those who control their weight

> through diet rather than exercise are more likely to have major

> deposits of internal fat, even if they are otherwise slim.

What did they do that caused them to come to this conclusion - that

exercise has a different effect from diet?

> The researchers from Imperial College, London say whether a person

is

> thin or fat is really determined by how they appear from the inside

> and is not based on external appearance.

>

> Doctors believe that the internal fat surrounding such vital organs

as

> the heart, liver or pancreas, which cannot be seen from the naked

eye,

> could be as deadly to health as the more obvious external fat that

is

> easily seen.

They say " could be " ??????? The moons of Mars " could be " made of

cream cheese. But it doesn't seem very likely. So what is their

evidence for the above, about which they say " could be " ?

> The study which was funded by the Medical Research Council involved

> 800 people who were scanned using MRI devices and Dr. Jimmy Bell, a

> professor of molecular imaging at Imperial College, says being thin

> does not automatically mean a person is not fat.

>

> Dr. Bell's " fat maps " taken since 1994 which were created from the

> scans, show where excess fat was stored and it was found that people

> who were thin were not necessarily trim; as many as 60 percent of

men

> and 45 percent of the women with normal BMI scores (20 to 25)

screened

> who were externally thin had dangerous deposits of internal fat.

By what criterion did they determine that these fat deposits are

dangerous in these thin people? It might have been more persuasive

if they had told us.

> The researchers believe that the " concept of being fat needs to be

> redefined " as people who are thin outside, but fat inside are

hovering

> on the verge of being obese.

>

> Experts say that it is at present unclear what the exact dangers of

> internal fat are but many believe that it contributes to the risk of

> heart disease and diabetes.

" it is at present unclear .......... " . Seems to me that in plain

english that means they don't have a clue whether it is dangerous or

not.

" ... but many believe ...... " careful now, whenever people start

using the word " believe " it looks like religion is beginning to be

relied on in order to get around the fact they don't have any

evidence. I wonder which religion it is in this case?

> They say internal fat disrupts the body's communication systems by

> sending mistaken chemical signals to the body to store fat inside

> organs such as the liver or pancreas.

>

> On a more reassuring note however the researchers add that internal

> fat can be easily burned off through exercise or even by improving

the

> diet and they recommend cutting down on the calories and beginning a

> physical exercise programme to ensure a healthy life free from heart

> diseases.

Again, WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THIS ?????? Both as regards

exercise and what they call " improving the diet " .

I'd like to invite the journalist, and perhaps the researchers also,

to go back and start again. If they are hoping anyone will take this

stuff seriously based on what they have written the first time round.

Rodney.

[Guest guest]

At 04:07 AM 5/15/2007, Rodney wrote:

>I cannot tell from what was written. And, as previously noted, there

>

>is no " Jimmy Bell " of " Bell J " listed in the faculty of medicine at

>Imperial College London. Was he very recently fired, I wonder?

Jimmy Bell is the head of the Molecular Imaging Group, Medical

Research Council Clinical Sciences Centre, Faculty of Medicine,

Imperial College London.

http://www.csc.mrc.ac.uk/ResearchGroups/MolecularImaging/MolecularImagingResearc\

h.html

Jimmy Bell, as " JD Bell " has published, along with his group, 85

articles in peer-reviewed medical science journals, most of them on

the use of NMR (MRI) to measure adipose tissue. He's been working in

the field for 12 years and his most recent publication came out a few

weeks ago. His work is widely cited by other scientists working in

his field.

Here is a list of his publications:

http://www.csc.mrc.ac.uk/ResearchGroups/MolecularImaging/MolecularImagingPublica\

tions.html

> > On a more reassuring note however the researchers add that

> internal

> > fat can be easily burned off through exercise or even by

> improving

>the

> > diet and they recommend cutting down on the calories and

> beginning a

> > physical exercise programme to ensure a healthy life free from

> heart

> > diseases.

>

>Again, WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THIS ?????? Both as regards

>exercise and what they call " improving the diet " .

I can't quote all 85 of his articles, but here is some of the

evidence he has published on exercise, diet and adipose tissue:

Diabetologia. 2007 Feb;50(2):404-413. Epub 2006 Dec 6. Exercise

training reduces fatty acid availability and improves the insulin

sensitivity of glucose metabolism. Shojaee-Moradie F, Baynes KC,

Pentecost C, Bell JD, EL, NC, Stolinski M, Whyte M,

Lovell D, Bowes SB, Gibney J, RH, Umpleby AM. Department of

Diabetes, Endocrinology and Internal Medicine, GKT School of

Medicine, King's College London, London, UK. AIMS/HYPOTHESIS: It is

not known whether the beneficial effects of exercise training on

insulin sensitivity are due to changes in hepatic and peripheral

insulin sensitivity or whether the changes in insulin sensitivity can

be explained by adaptive changes in fatty acid metabolism, changes in

visceral fat or changes in liver and muscle triacylglycerol content.

We investigated the effects of 6 weeks of supervised exercise in

sedentary men on these variables. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: We randomised

17 sedentary overweight male subjects (age 50 +/- 2.6 years, BMI 27.6

+/- 0.5 kg/m(2)) to a 6-week exercise programme (n = 10) or control

group (n = 7). The insulin sensitivity of palmitic acid production

rate (Ra), glycerol Ra, endogenous glucose Ra (EGP), glucose uptake

and glucose metabolic clearance rate were measured at 0 and 6 weeks

with a two-step hyperinsulinaemic-euglycaemic clamp [step 1, 0.3 (low

dose); step 2, 1.5 (high dose) mU kg(-1) min(-1)]. In the exercise

group subjects were studied >72 h after the last training session.

Liver and skeletal muscle triacylglycerol content was measured by

magnetic resonance spectroscopy and visceral adipose tissue by

cross-sectional computer tomography scanning. RESULTS: After 6 weeks,

fasting glycerol, palmitic acid Ra (p = 0.003, p = 0.042) and NEFA

concentration (p = 0.005) were decreased in the exercise group with

no change in the control group. The effects of low-dose insulin on

EGP and of high-dose insulin on glucose uptake and metabolic

clearance rate were enhanced in the exercise group but not in the

control group (p = 0.026; p = 0.007 and p = 0.04). There was no

change in muscle triacylglycerol and liver fat in either group.

CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION: Decreased availability of circulating

NEFA may contribute to the observed improvement in the insulin

sensitivity of EGP and glucose uptake following 6 weeks of moderate

exercise.

Lipids. 2000 Jul;35(7):769-76. Preferential loss of visceral fat

following aerobic exercise, measured by magnetic resonance imaging.

EL, Brynes AE, McCarthy J, Goldstone AP, Hajnal JV, Saeed N,

Frost G, Bell JD. The Steiner MR Unit, MRC Clinical Sciences

Centre, Imperial College School of Medicine, Hammersmith Hospital,

London, England. louise.thomas@... The aim of this study was to

use whole-body magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) together with

biochemical and anthropometric measurements to study the influence of

regular moderate exercise with no dietary intervention on adipose

tissue distribution in nonobese healthy women. We found significant

decreases in both total (28.86+/-2.24 vs. 27.00+/-2.27 liters, P <

0.05) and regional fat depots (visceral fat: 1.68+/-0.21 vs.

1.26+/-0.18 liters, P < 0.01) using whole-body MRI despite no

significant change in body weight, body mass index, or the

waist-to-hip ratio. Interestingly, no changes in body fat content

were found using anthropometry or impedance. There was a significant

increase in high density lipoprotein cholesterol (1.58+/-0.06 vs.

1.66+/-0.08 mmol/L P < 0.02) following exercise although there were

no changes in other blood lipids such as triglycerides. In summary,

moderate aerobic exercise over a period of 6 mon resulted in a

preferential loss in visceral fat in nonobese healthy women, and this

may help to explain some of the health benefits associated with

regular and moderate physical activity.

Lipids. 1996 Feb;31(2):145-51. An in vivo 13C magnetic resonance

spectroscopic study of the relationship between diet and adipose

tissue composition. EL, Frost G, Barnard ML, DJ,

- SD, Simbrunner J, Coutts GA, Burl M, Bloom SR, Sales

KD, Bell JD. Steiner MRI Unit, Hammersmith Hospital, London,

United Kingdom. 13C magnetic resonance spectroscopy (MRS) is a

noninvasive technique used in the study of lipids. We applied 13C MRS

to assess the effects of long-term dietary variation on adipose

tissue composition in humans. In vivo 13C MRS was used to analyze the

fatty acid composition of adipose tissue in 88 healthy volunteers

with significantly different diets (38 vegans, 11 vegetarians, and 39

omnivores) assessed by analysis of dietary records. Results were

compared with the serum lipid profile. 13C MRS revealed clear

differences in the adipose tissue composition of vegans, which

contained more unsaturated (P < 0.01) and fewer saturated fatty acids

(P < 0.01) compared with omnivores and vegetarians. The vegan

subjects had a significantly lower intake of saturated fatty acids

and higher intake of polyunsaturated fatty acids than either the

omnivore or the vegetarian groups (P < 0.01). These findings were

associated with significantly lower levels of serum total cholesterol

and low density lipoprotein-cholesterol in the vegan group compared

with the omnivores. Our results demonstrate the use of 13C MRS for

the noninvasive study of adipose tissue composition and its

application to the study of the interaction between long-term dietary

and metabolic risk factors in humans.

>I'd like to invite the journalist, and perhaps the researchers also,

>

>to go back and start again. If they are hoping anyone will take this

>

>stuff seriously based on what they have written the first time

>round.

Perhaps the journalist could have been more specific in citing the

scientific literature. But as for Jimmy Bell, I would take his work

very seriously.

Fadden

[Guest guest]

Thank you . Now that I have an email address for the department

concerned I have emailed them for clarification of the points I

raised about the article, and a few others also.

If I get a reply I will post it.

This may be an important issue.

Rodney.

> >I cannot tell from what was written. And, as previously noted,

there

> >

> >is no " Jimmy Bell " of " Bell J " listed in the faculty of medicine at

> >Imperial College London. Was he very recently fired, I wonder?

>

> Jimmy Bell is the head of the Molecular Imaging Group, Medical

> Research Council Clinical Sciences Centre, Faculty of Medicine,

> Imperial College London.

>

>

http://www.csc.mrc.ac.uk/ResearchGroups/MolecularImaging/MolecularImag

ingResearch.html

>

> Jimmy Bell, as " JD Bell " has published, along with his group, 85

> articles in peer-reviewed medical science journals, most of them on

> the use of NMR (MRI) to measure adipose tissue. He's been working

in

> the field for 12 years and his most recent publication came out a

few

> weeks ago. His work is widely cited by other scientists working in

> his field.

>

> Here is a list of his publications:

>

>

http://www.csc.mrc.ac.uk/ResearchGroups/MolecularImaging/MolecularImag

ingPublications.html

>

> > > On a more reassuring note however the researchers add that

> > internal

> > > fat can be easily burned off through exercise or even by

> > improving

> >the

> > > diet and they recommend cutting down on the calories and

> > beginning a

> > > physical exercise programme to ensure a healthy life free from

> > heart

> > > diseases.

> >

> >Again, WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THIS ?????? Both as regards

> >exercise and what they call " improving the diet " .

>

> I can't quote all 85 of his articles, but here is some of the

> evidence he has published on exercise, diet and adipose tissue:

>

> Diabetologia. 2007 Feb;50(2):404-413. Epub 2006 Dec 6. Exercise

> training reduces fatty acid availability and improves the insulin

> sensitivity of glucose metabolism. Shojaee-Moradie F, Baynes KC,

> Pentecost C, Bell JD, EL, NC, Stolinski M, Whyte M,

> Lovell D, Bowes SB, Gibney J, RH, Umpleby AM. Department of

> Diabetes, Endocrinology and Internal Medicine, GKT School of

> Medicine, King's College London, London, UK. AIMS/HYPOTHESIS: It is

> not known whether the beneficial effects of exercise training on

> insulin sensitivity are due to changes in hepatic and peripheral

> insulin sensitivity or whether the changes in insulin sensitivity

can

> be explained by adaptive changes in fatty acid metabolism, changes

in

> visceral fat or changes in liver and muscle triacylglycerol

content.

> We investigated the effects of 6 weeks of supervised exercise in

> sedentary men on these variables. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: We

randomised

> 17 sedentary overweight male subjects (age 50 +/- 2.6 years, BMI

27.6

> +/- 0.5 kg/m(2)) to a 6-week exercise programme (n = 10) or control

> group (n = 7). The insulin sensitivity of palmitic acid production

> rate (Ra), glycerol Ra, endogenous glucose Ra (EGP), glucose uptake

> and glucose metabolic clearance rate were measured at 0 and 6 weeks

> with a two-step hyperinsulinaemic-euglycaemic clamp [step 1, 0.3

(low

> dose); step 2, 1.5 (high dose) mU kg(-1) min(-1)]. In the exercise

> group subjects were studied >72 h after the last training session.

> Liver and skeletal muscle triacylglycerol content was measured by

> magnetic resonance spectroscopy and visceral adipose tissue by

> cross-sectional computer tomography scanning. RESULTS: After 6

weeks,

> fasting glycerol, palmitic acid Ra (p = 0.003, p = 0.042) and NEFA

> concentration (p = 0.005) were decreased in the exercise group with

> no change in the control group. The effects of low-dose insulin on

> EGP and of high-dose insulin on glucose uptake and metabolic

> clearance rate were enhanced in the exercise group but not in the

> control group (p = 0.026; p = 0.007 and p = 0.04). There was no

> change in muscle triacylglycerol and liver fat in either group.

> CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION: Decreased availability of circulating

> NEFA may contribute to the observed improvement in the insulin

> sensitivity of EGP and glucose uptake following 6 weeks of moderate

> exercise.

>

> Lipids. 2000 Jul;35(7):769-76. Preferential loss of visceral fat

> following aerobic exercise, measured by magnetic resonance imaging.

> EL, Brynes AE, McCarthy J, Goldstone AP, Hajnal JV, Saeed N,

> Frost G, Bell JD. The Steiner MR Unit, MRC Clinical Sciences

> Centre, Imperial College School of Medicine, Hammersmith Hospital,

> London, England. louise.thomas@... The aim of this study was to

> use whole-body magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) together with

> biochemical and anthropometric measurements to study the influence

of

> regular moderate exercise with no dietary intervention on adipose

> tissue distribution in nonobese healthy women. We found significant

> decreases in both total (28.86+/-2.24 vs. 27.00+/-2.27 liters, P <

> 0.05) and regional fat depots (visceral fat: 1.68+/-0.21 vs.

> 1.26+/-0.18 liters, P < 0.01) using whole-body MRI despite no

> significant change in body weight, body mass index, or the

> waist-to-hip ratio. Interestingly, no changes in body fat content

> were found using anthropometry or impedance. There was a

significant

> increase in high density lipoprotein cholesterol (1.58+/-0.06 vs.

> 1.66+/-0.08 mmol/L P < 0.02) following exercise although there were

> no changes in other blood lipids such as triglycerides. In summary,

> moderate aerobic exercise over a period of 6 mon resulted in a

> preferential loss in visceral fat in nonobese healthy women, and

this

> may help to explain some of the health benefits associated with

> regular and moderate physical activity.

>

> Lipids. 1996 Feb;31(2):145-51. An in vivo 13C magnetic resonance

> spectroscopic study of the relationship between diet and adipose

> tissue composition. EL, Frost G, Barnard ML, DJ,

> - SD, Simbrunner J, Coutts GA, Burl M, Bloom SR,

Sales

> KD, Bell JD. Steiner MRI Unit, Hammersmith Hospital, London,

> United Kingdom. 13C magnetic resonance spectroscopy (MRS) is a

> noninvasive technique used in the study of lipids. We applied 13C

MRS

> to assess the effects of long-term dietary variation on adipose

> tissue composition in humans. In vivo 13C MRS was used to analyze

the

> fatty acid composition of adipose tissue in 88 healthy volunteers

> with significantly different diets (38 vegans, 11 vegetarians, and

39

> omnivores) assessed by analysis of dietary records. Results were

> compared with the serum lipid profile. 13C MRS revealed clear

> differences in the adipose tissue composition of vegans, which

> contained more unsaturated (P < 0.01) and fewer saturated fatty

acids

> (P < 0.01) compared with omnivores and vegetarians. The vegan

> subjects had a significantly lower intake of saturated fatty acids

> and higher intake of polyunsaturated fatty acids than either the

> omnivore or the vegetarian groups (P < 0.01). These findings were

> associated with significantly lower levels of serum total

cholesterol

> and low density lipoprotein-cholesterol in the vegan group compared

> with the omnivores. Our results demonstrate the use of 13C MRS for

> the noninvasive study of adipose tissue composition and its

> application to the study of the interaction between long-term

dietary

> and metabolic risk factors in humans.

>

> >I'd like to invite the journalist, and perhaps the researchers

also,

> >

> >to go back and start again. If they are hoping anyone will take

this

> >

> >stuff seriously based on what they have written the first time

> >round.

>

> Perhaps the journalist could have been more specific in citing the

> scientific literature. But as for Jimmy Bell, I would take his

work

> very seriously.

>

> Fadden

>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

I emailed these people for several clarifications two weeks ago and

have not so far received a reply.

Via their references I have located the following, which seems in

conflict with their claim that exercise is the only way to reduce

visceral fat.

Especially notable is the part which says that: " In agreement with

previous studies in overweight premenopausal women, postmenopausal

women, and men, in this study, the addition of aerobic or resistance

exercise to the energy-restrictive diet did not enhance the changes

in the lipid profile. Common to these studies, diet and exercise

combined was not associated with an increase in weight loss compared

with diet alone. .......... it is not unreasonable to assume that

the inability of exercise to induce an added benefit is at least

partially explained by the inability of exercise to increase the

reduction in total or abdominal adiposity. "

Here the above quote is placed in its larger context:

" .... weight loss was associated with reduced levels of total and

LDL cholesterol, apolipoprotein B, and fasting insulin. This is

noteworthy because these variables are independent predictors of

ischemic heart disease (46,47) and thus reinforce the importance of

weight loss in the treatment of dyslipidemia and hyperinsulinemia.

That weight loss had no effect on plasma triglycerides, HDL

cholesterol, or glucose variables may be explained by the relatively

normal lipid and glucose tolerance levels for most subjects before

treatment. Indeed, the reductions observed for many of the metabolic

variables were positively correlated with pretreatment values (data

not shown), a finding in agreement with previous studies wherein the

effectiveness of weight loss as a therapeutic strategy was

particularly useful for individuals with dyslipidemia and/or glucose

intolerance (3,48).

In agreement with previous studies in overweight premenopausal women

(13–15,49), postmenopausal women (17,50), and men (15,51), in this

study, the addition of aerobic or resistance exercise to the energy-

restrictive diet did not enhance the changes in the lipid profile.

Common to these studies, diet and exercise combined was not

associated with an increase in weight loss compared with diet alone.

Given the importance of weight and/or fat loss in the treatment of

disturbances in plasma lipids and lipoproteins, it is not

unreasonable to assume that the inability of exercise to induce an

added benefit is at least partially explained by the inability of

exercise to increase the reduction in total or abdominal adiposity.

This is consistent with the observation that exercise in the absence

of weight loss has little or no effect on the plasma lipid profile

(12,15,52,53). In this way, it is suggested that improvement in

obesity-related dyslipidemias may best be accomplished by the

prescription of prolonged (30–60 min/day) low-intensity (50–60%

V2max) exercise on all or most days of the week (24,54–56). In as

much as weight loss contributes to improvements in lipid profile, a

regimen of this nature is more likely to result in exercise-induced

weight loss that is associated with reduction in obesity and related

comorbidities (24,55). "

From: http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/3/431?

ijkey=a58de6365596e077a740b04c0b5d0bb34a503e84

http://snipurl.com/1my46

So you might say the issue is 'controversial'!

It would be nice to get clarification of the problems I have with the

journalist-written article which started this discussion.

Rodney.

> > >I cannot tell from what was written. And, as previously noted,

> there

> > >

> > >is no " Jimmy Bell " of " Bell J " listed in the faculty of medicine

at

> > >Imperial College London. Was he very recently fired, I wonder?

> >

> > Jimmy Bell is the head of the Molecular Imaging Group, Medical

> > Research Council Clinical Sciences Centre, Faculty of Medicine,

> > Imperial College London.

> >

> >

>

http://www.csc.mrc.ac.uk/ResearchGroups/MolecularImaging/MolecularImag

> ingResearch.html

> >

> > Jimmy Bell, as " JD Bell " has published, along with his group, 85

> > articles in peer-reviewed medical science journals, most of them

on

> > the use of NMR (MRI) to measure adipose tissue. He's been

working

> in

> > the field for 12 years and his most recent publication came out a

> few

> > weeks ago. His work is widely cited by other scientists working

in

> > his field.

> >

> > Here is a list of his publications:

> >

> >

>

http://www.csc.mrc.ac.uk/ResearchGroups/MolecularImaging/MolecularImag

> ingPublications.html

> >

> > > > On a more reassuring note however the researchers add that

> > > internal

> > > > fat can be easily burned off through exercise or even by

> > > improving

> > >the

> > > > diet and they recommend cutting down on the calories and

> > > beginning a

> > > > physical exercise programme to ensure a healthy life free

from

> > > heart

> > > > diseases.

> > >

> > >Again, WHAT IS THE EVIDENCE FOR THIS ?????? Both as regards

> > >exercise and what they call " improving the diet " .

> >

> > I can't quote all 85 of his articles, but here is some of the

> > evidence he has published on exercise, diet and adipose tissue:

> >

> > Diabetologia. 2007 Feb;50(2):404-413. Epub 2006 Dec 6. Exercise

> > training reduces fatty acid availability and improves the insulin

> > sensitivity of glucose metabolism. Shojaee-Moradie F, Baynes KC,

> > Pentecost C, Bell JD, EL, NC, Stolinski M, Whyte

M,

> > Lovell D, Bowes SB, Gibney J, RH, Umpleby AM. Department of

> > Diabetes, Endocrinology and Internal Medicine, GKT School of

> > Medicine, King's College London, London, UK. AIMS/HYPOTHESIS: It

is

> > not known whether the beneficial effects of exercise training on

> > insulin sensitivity are due to changes in hepatic and peripheral

> > insulin sensitivity or whether the changes in insulin sensitivity

> can

> > be explained by adaptive changes in fatty acid metabolism,

changes

> in

> > visceral fat or changes in liver and muscle triacylglycerol

> content.

> > We investigated the effects of 6 weeks of supervised exercise in

> > sedentary men on these variables. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: We

> randomised

> > 17 sedentary overweight male subjects (age 50 +/- 2.6 years, BMI

> 27.6

> > +/- 0.5 kg/m(2)) to a 6-week exercise programme (n = 10) or

control

> > group (n = 7). The insulin sensitivity of palmitic acid

production

> > rate (Ra), glycerol Ra, endogenous glucose Ra (EGP), glucose

uptake

> > and glucose metabolic clearance rate were measured at 0 and 6

weeks

> > with a two-step hyperinsulinaemic-euglycaemic clamp [step 1, 0.3

> (low

> > dose); step 2, 1.5 (high dose) mU kg(-1) min(-1)]. In the

exercise

> > group subjects were studied >72 h after the last training

session.

> > Liver and skeletal muscle triacylglycerol content was measured by

> > magnetic resonance spectroscopy and visceral adipose tissue by

> > cross-sectional computer tomography scanning. RESULTS: After 6

> weeks,

> > fasting glycerol, palmitic acid Ra (p = 0.003, p = 0.042) and

NEFA

> > concentration (p = 0.005) were decreased in the exercise group

with

> > no change in the control group. The effects of low-dose insulin

on

> > EGP and of high-dose insulin on glucose uptake and metabolic

> > clearance rate were enhanced in the exercise group but not in the

> > control group (p = 0.026; p = 0.007 and p = 0.04). There was no

> > change in muscle triacylglycerol and liver fat in either group.

> > CONCLUSIONS/INTERPRETATION: Decreased availability of circulating

> > NEFA may contribute to the observed improvement in the insulin

> > sensitivity of EGP and glucose uptake following 6 weeks of

moderate

> > exercise.

> >

> > Lipids. 2000 Jul;35(7):769-76. Preferential loss of visceral fat

> > following aerobic exercise, measured by magnetic resonance

imaging.

> > EL, Brynes AE, McCarthy J, Goldstone AP, Hajnal JV, Saeed

N,

> > Frost G, Bell JD. The Steiner MR Unit, MRC Clinical

Sciences

> > Centre, Imperial College School of Medicine, Hammersmith

Hospital,

> > London, England. louise.thomas@ The aim of this study was to

> > use whole-body magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) together with

> > biochemical and anthropometric measurements to study the

influence

> of

> > regular moderate exercise with no dietary intervention on adipose

> > tissue distribution in nonobese healthy women. We found

significant

> > decreases in both total (28.86+/-2.24 vs. 27.00+/-2.27 liters, P

<

> > 0.05) and regional fat depots (visceral fat: 1.68+/-0.21 vs.

> > 1.26+/-0.18 liters, P < 0.01) using whole-body MRI despite no

> > significant change in body weight, body mass index, or the

> > waist-to-hip ratio. Interestingly, no changes in body fat content

> > were found using anthropometry or impedance. There was a

> significant

> > increase in high density lipoprotein cholesterol (1.58+/-0.06 vs.

> > 1.66+/-0.08 mmol/L P < 0.02) following exercise although there

were

> > no changes in other blood lipids such as triglycerides. In

summary,

> > moderate aerobic exercise over a period of 6 mon resulted in a

> > preferential loss in visceral fat in nonobese healthy women, and

> this

> > may help to explain some of the health benefits associated with

> > regular and moderate physical activity.

> >

> > Lipids. 1996 Feb;31(2):145-51. An in vivo 13C magnetic resonance

> > spectroscopic study of the relationship between diet and adipose

> > tissue composition. EL, Frost G, Barnard ML, DJ,

> > - SD, Simbrunner J, Coutts GA, Burl M, Bloom SR,

> Sales

> > KD, Bell JD. Steiner MRI Unit, Hammersmith Hospital,

London,

> > United Kingdom. 13C magnetic resonance spectroscopy (MRS) is a

> > noninvasive technique used in the study of lipids. We applied 13C

> MRS

> > to assess the effects of long-term dietary variation on adipose

> > tissue composition in humans. In vivo 13C MRS was used to analyze

> the

> > fatty acid composition of adipose tissue in 88 healthy volunteers

> > with significantly different diets (38 vegans, 11 vegetarians,

and

> 39

> > omnivores) assessed by analysis of dietary records. Results were

> > compared with the serum lipid profile. 13C MRS revealed clear

> > differences in the adipose tissue composition of vegans, which

> > contained more unsaturated (P < 0.01) and fewer saturated fatty

> acids

> > (P < 0.01) compared with omnivores and vegetarians. The vegan

> > subjects had a significantly lower intake of saturated fatty

acids

> > and higher intake of polyunsaturated fatty acids than either the

> > omnivore or the vegetarian groups (P < 0.01). These findings were

> > associated with significantly lower levels of serum total

> cholesterol

> > and low density lipoprotein-cholesterol in the vegan group

compared

> > with the omnivores. Our results demonstrate the use of 13C MRS

for

> > the noninvasive study of adipose tissue composition and its

> > application to the study of the interaction between long-term

> dietary

> > and metabolic risk factors in humans.

> >

> > >I'd like to invite the journalist, and perhaps the researchers

> also,

> > >

> > >to go back and start again. If they are hoping anyone will take

> this

> > >

> > >stuff seriously based on what they have written the first time

> > >round.

> >

> > Perhaps the journalist could have been more specific in citing

the

> > scientific literature. But as for Jimmy Bell, I would take his

> work

> > very seriously.

> >

> > Fadden

> >

>