Re: Maintaining muscle on CR diets

[Guest guest]

Hi,

In my experience, muscle loss is minimal as long as you keep up your weight training and have fat to lose. Your muscles might "shrink", but that is just them leaning out. I wouldn't worry about it until you start getting to a BF% of less than 8. Then, if you are still very restricted, you could run into unwanted muscle loss. OTOH, there have been very few who have tried it. If you keep up your training, I would expect you to continue to get lighter and leaner, but very ripped, as the body would try to maintain muscle mass.

Also, I wouldn't listen to anyone who says that you won't get a CR effect unless you reach a certain weight. There is data to suggest that even 10% restriction is plenty to get a CR effect. Plus, you should never take somebody else's target (e.g. 1800 kcal) for yourself without verification that it is appropriate for you personally. First, figure out where your balance point is, where you don't gain or lose weight, and start restricting gradually from there. Watch your progress and adjust if necessary. Especially at your age there is no need to rush it.

regards,

chris

[ ] Maintaining muscle on CR diets

Hi Im a 23 year old male currently 6'0" 240lbs and into weightlifting.I like my size and strength but would like to begin a CR diet toprolong life. Problem is that 1800kcal/day is very little for me andwill have a detrimental impact on my athletic endeavors. I can standto lose some fat and could even live with losing some muscle but Ivebeen told that to get the CR effect Id have to drop to 130-140lbs.Thats a 100lbs drop for me! At the weight I would look like aholocaust victim. I know that the body has a "set point" that keepones weight within a reasonable range. Is it possible that even at1800kcal/day my body will be able to keep me at a very lean180-185lbs? I currently have about 20% bf so that puts me a 190lbslean anyway for what im asking is whether this diet will have theeffect of stripping away most of my fat yet retaining my muscle if Ikeep my protein intake and muscle-building stimulus

high?thanks

[Guest guest]

And that data is in our files!!

> From: chris <ucla_mishka@...>

> Reply-< >

> Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 08:22:23 -0700 (PDT)

> < >

> Subject: Re: [ ] Maintaining muscle on CR diets

>

> Hi,

>

> Also, I wouldn't listen to anyone who says that you won't get a CR effect

> unless you reach a certain weight. There is data to suggest that even 10%

> restriction is plenty to get a CR effect. ......

> regards,

>

> chris

>

> [ ] Maintaining muscle on CR diets

>

> Hi Im a 23 year old male currently 6'0 " 240lbs and into weightlifting.

> I like my size and strength but would like to begin a CR diet to

> prolong life. Problem is that 1800kcal/day is very little for me and

> will have a detrimental impact on my athletic endeavors. I can stand

> to lose some fat and could even live with losing some muscle but Ive

> been told that to get the CR effect Id have to drop to 130-140lbs.

> Thats a 100lbs drop for me! At the weight I would look like a

> holocaust victim. I know that the body has a " set point " that keep

> ones weight within a reasonable range. Is it possible that even at

> 1800kcal/day my body will be able to keep me at a very lean

> 180-185lbs? I currently have about 20% bf so that puts me a 190lbs

> lean anyway for what im asking is whether this diet will have the

> effect of stripping away most of my fat yet retaining my muscle if I

> keep my protein intake and muscle-building stimulus high?

> thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

Also, it's been suggested that you can achieve a CR or CR-similar effect

(in terms of improved biomarkers) by alternate day fasting or a

modification of that (google the QOD diet, for example), wherein you

don't necessarily lose weight/lean-body-mass although you're consuming

fewer net calories.

Maco

At 10:58 PM 5/3/2007, you wrote:

Hi Im a 23 year old male

currently 6'0 " 240lbs and into weightlifting.

I like my size and strength but would like to begin a CR diet to

prolong life. Problem is that 1800kcal/day is very little for me and

will have a detrimental impact on my athletic endeavors. I can stand

to lose some fat and could even live with losing some muscle but Ive

been told that to get the CR effect Id have to drop to 130-140lbs.

Thats a 100lbs drop for me! At the weight I would look like a

holocaust victim. I know that the body has a " set point " that

keep

ones weight within a reasonable range. Is it possible that even at

1800kcal/day my body will be able to keep me at a very lean

180-185lbs? I currently have about 20% bf so that puts me a 190lbs

lean anyway for what im asking is whether this diet will have the

effect of stripping away most of my fat yet retaining my muscle if I

keep my protein intake and muscle-building stimulus high?

thanks

[Guest guest]

I think alot depends on your existing body fat. I felt that dropping

to 142#, I was feeling weak and beginning to lose muscle also and I'm

5'10 " . But I have always been lean and muscular. You may perhaps

choose, as I have, to adapt a moderate or modified CR and maintain more

weight. Take your weight down to 162, slowly as per diet and procedures

as recommended elsewhere on this site and see how you feel. Proceed

lower from there. The process gave me some consternation over time but

it is a decision not a demand, in my case, tempered by being blessed

with long-lived family members on both sides.

[Guest guest]

All

I think also that perceptions of what is attractive changes over

time. The muscle bound gym bunnies that where the envy of society

in South Beach when I lived there look to me to be overweight and

unhealthy now. By practicing yoga and CR, I have a lean body with

strong, defined lean muscles, something I didn't have pre-CR.

cheers,

Arturo

Re: Maintaining muscle on CR diets

Posted by: " Ron Corselli " rcors rcorselli

Fri May 4, 2007 7:12 pm (PST)

I think alot depends on your existing body fat. I felt that dropping

to 142#, I was feeling weak and beginning to lose muscle also and I'm

5'10 " . But I have always been lean and muscular. You may perhaps

choose, as I have, to adapt a moderate or modified CR and maintain more

weight. Take your weight down to 162, slowly as per diet and procedures

as recommended elsewhere on this site and see how you feel. Proceed

lower from there. The process gave me some consternation over time but

it is a decision not a demand, in my case, tempered by being blessed

with long-lived family members on both sides.

[Guest guest]

When I was young I was living in a culture and environment where being very,

and I mean very unhealthy skinny was the rule, from that time and that

country I have 4 anorexic (clinically anorexic) friends.

I am new here, but one think I did learn is that this is not about " having a

great body " or " being skynny " so being attractive is something that

shouldn't even come to mind.

I honestly like my current body very much, (128lbs 5'7) .

We must care about ourselves before thinking what others will think about

our bodies or our practices.

----Original Message Follows----

From: Arturo Veve <volae@...>

Reply-

< >

Subject: [ ] Re: Maintaining muscle on CR diets

Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 04:11:46 -0700 (GMT-07:00)

All

I think also that perceptions of what is attractive changes over

time. The muscle bound gym bunnies that where the envy of society

in South Beach when I lived there look to me to be overweight and

unhealthy now. By practicing yoga and CR, I have a lean body with

strong, defined lean muscles, something I didn't have pre-CR.

cheers,

Arturo

Re: Maintaining muscle on CR diets

Posted by: " Ron Corselli " rcors rcorselli

Fri May 4, 2007 7:12 pm (PST)

I think alot depends on your existing body fat. I felt that dropping

to 142#, I was feeling weak and beginning to lose muscle also and I'm

5'10 " . But I have always been lean and muscular. You may perhaps

choose, as I have, to adapt a moderate or modified CR and maintain more

weight. Take your weight down to 162, slowly as per diet and procedures

as recommended elsewhere on this site and see how you feel. Proceed

lower from there. The process gave me some consternation over time but

it is a decision not a demand, in my case, tempered by being blessed

with long-lived family members on both sides.

[Guest guest]

Over the years, my weight has ranged from the upper 130s to the upper

170s. Of course, I'm at the low end now, due to CR. I used to have

a lot more muscle on my frame, but also significantly more fat. I

now have well-defined muscle and good vascularity. However, I will

say that, with respect to lifting weights, I am *much* weaker than I

used to be. The poundages I am able to lift have dropped faster than

my bodyweight (proportionally). This is illustrated well by the fact

that I cannot do as many pullups at my current low bodyweight as I

could do at a much higher bodyweight. Stamina is also an issue. I

simply cannot spend as long in the gym as I used to. I become tired

much more quickly. None of this is necessarily so bad. After all, I

never had any aspirations to be a serious powerlifter. I am fit,

healthy (my diet is better than it ever has been), and extending my

life is far more important to me than being a strong guy in the gym!

CRON is not *ideal* for bodybuilding, though it would be much worse

for triathlon!

-Dave

--- In , " raisachud " <g.getman@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Im a 23 year old male currently 6'0 " 240lbs and into

weightlifting.

> I like my size and strength but would like to begin a CR diet to

> prolong life. Problem is that 1800kcal/day is very little for me and

> will have a detrimental impact on my athletic endeavors. I can stand

> to lose some fat and could even live with losing some muscle but Ive

> been told that to get the CR effect Id have to drop to 130-140lbs.

> Thats a 100lbs drop for me! At the weight I would look like a

> holocaust victim. I know that the body has a " set point " that keep

> ones weight within a reasonable range. Is it possible that even at

> 1800kcal/day my body will be able to keep me at a very lean

> 180-185lbs? I currently have about 20% bf so that puts me a 190lbs

> lean anyway for what im asking is whether this diet will have the

> effect of stripping away most of my fat yet retaining my muscle if I

> keep my protein intake and muscle-building stimulus high?

> thanks

>

[Guest guest]

i've been lifting, using free weights, consistently for a while. i'm 30, 5'8, 148, and prolly max around 245, maybe slightly less. been on CR for about 7 months. i probably could have maxed around 275 at before starting CR, so a slight drop off. but, i've been running more to try to get my Resting Heart Rate down instead of lifting the last month, so CR has probably only a little to part of the drop off. pull ups for example, have gone from 12-15 a set, to 25 due to the lighter weight. i don't think i'm missing much in the way of muscle.my weight has dropped from 163 to 148, but has stabilized for a month and it appears i'm not losing anymore.using an Omron handheld, my body fat reading ranges from 6.4% to 7.7% down from 12%-14%. BMI 22 down from 24. am a little concerned, as others with similar frames appear to get down to the 130-135 range, but i think with the extra 10-15 lbs of muscle is the reason i'm not losing anymore. it's only been 7 months, so my

weight could drop more, but no one would be able to tell that i'm on CR by looking at me right now, unlike my wife, who honestly looks waaaaay too thin (it's caused family issues). i certainly don't look like the others around the net. i feel bad for women since they can't do CR, counteract the wafe look by lifting a lot and look good. for me, i actually look quite ripped. veins popping out everywhere that i never had with the road map look (on most days), up and down my stomach, biceps, across the chest and shoulders. now if i could just fill out my back and get some veins there . just today in the locker room some large chunky guy was talking about his diet, and said 'if i eat 5 small meals, lots of protein, etc, i'll look like that guy (as i was stepping on the scale). more importantly, my resting heart rate has dropped from 58 last summer to 38. bp is 105 over 55. body temp 97.0. i'm wondering if i need to go to 1600 to get the bp and body temp down to where

some of the others have theirs. i actually was at 143 when eating 1600, so that's probably better. but i'm only 30, so figure i might as well stay here for a while and see how it goes. based on your body fat and weight numbers, i'd guess you'll get down to the 180-190 range and stay there, lose maybe 30 lbs on your bench after a year or so and look like a ripped freak as long as you continue to lift. you'll obviously have much better speed and endurance numbers. and of course, be much healthier with likely longer lifespan.chris <ucla_mishka@...> wrote: Hi, In my experience, muscle loss is minimal as long as you keep up your weight training and have fat to lose. Your muscles might "shrink", but that is just them leaning out. I wouldn't worry about it until you start getting to a BF% of less than 8. Then, if you are still very restricted, you could run into unwanted muscle loss. OTOH, there have been very few who have tried it. If you keep up your training, I would expect you to continue to get lighter and leaner, but very ripped, as the body would try to maintain muscle mass. Also, I wouldn't listen to anyone who says that you won't get a CR effect unless you reach a certain weight. There is data to suggest that even 10% restriction is plenty to get a CR effect. Plus, you should never take somebody else's target (e.g. 1800 kcal) for yourself without verification that it is appropriate for you personally. First, figure out where your balance point is, where you don't gain or lose weight, and start restricting gradually from there. Watch your progress and adjust if necessary. Especially at your age there is no need to rush it. regards, chris [ ] Maintaining muscle on CR diets Hi Im a 23 year old male currently 6'0" 240lbs and into weightlifting.I like my size and strength but would like to begin a CR diet toprolong life. Problem is that 1800kcal/day is very little for me andwill have a detrimental impact on my athletic endeavors. I can standto lose some fat and could even live with losing some muscle but Ivebeen told that to get the CR effect Id have to drop to 130-140lbs.Thats a 100lbs drop for me! At the weight I would look like aholocaust victim. I know that the

body has a "set point" that keepones weight within a reasonable range. Is it possible that even at1800kcal/day my body will be able to keep me at a very lean180-185lbs? I currently have about 20% bf so that puts me a 190lbslean anyway for what im asking is whether this diet will have theeffect of stripping away most of my fat yet retaining my muscle if Ikeep my protein intake and muscle-building stimulus high?thanks

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check out

new cars at Autos.

[Guest guest]

ops!

Now I am confused ;-)

Is there any truth to this statement:

" . i feel bad for women since they can't do CR " ????

Thanks!

----Original Message Follows----

From: bdorn 77 <bdorn77@...>

Reply-

Subject: Re: [ ] Maintaining muscle on CR diets

Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 23:22:29 -0700 (PDT)

i've been lifting, using free weights, consistently for a while. i'm 30,

5'8, 148, and prolly max around 245, maybe slightly less. been on CR for

about 7 months. i probably could have maxed around 275 at before starting

CR, so a slight drop off. but, i've been running more to try to get my

Resting Heart Rate down instead of lifting the last month, so CR has

probably only a little to part of the drop off. pull ups for example, have

gone from 12-15 a set, to 25 due to the lighter weight. i don't think i'm

missing much in the way of muscle.

my weight has dropped from 163 to 148, but has stabilized for a month and it

appears i'm not losing anymore.using an Omron handheld, my body fat reading

ranges from 6.4% to 7.7% down from 12%-14%. BMI 22 down from 24. am a little

concerned, as others with similar frames appear to get down to the 130-135

range, but i think with the extra 10-15 lbs of muscle is the reason i'm not

losing anymore.

it's only been 7 months, so my weight could drop more, but no one would be

able to tell that i'm on CR by looking at me right now, unlike my wife, who

honestly looks waaaaay too thin (it's caused family issues). i certainly

don't look like the others around the net. i feel bad for women since they

can't do CR, counteract the wafe look by lifting a lot and look good. for

me, i actually look quite ripped. veins popping out everywhere that i never

had with the road map look (on most days), up and down my stomach, biceps,

across the chest and shoulders. now if i could just fill out my back and get

some veins there . just today in the locker room some large chunky guy

was talking about his diet, and said 'if i eat 5 small meals, lots of

protein, etc, i'll look like that guy (as i was stepping on the scale).

more importantly, my resting heart rate has dropped from 58 last summer to

38. bp is 105 over 55. body temp 97.0. i'm wondering if i need to go to 1600

to get the bp and body temp down to where some of the others have theirs. i

actually was at 143 when eating 1600, so that's probably better. but i'm

only 30, so figure i might as well stay here for a while and see how it

goes. based on your body fat and weight numbers, i'd guess you'll get down

to the 180-190 range and stay there, lose maybe 30 lbs on your bench after a

year or so and look like a ripped freak as long as you continue to lift.

you'll obviously have much better speed and endurance numbers. and of

course, be much healthier with likely longer lifespan.

chris <ucla_mishka@...> wrote:

Hi,

In my experience, muscle loss is minimal as long as you keep up your

weight training and have fat to lose. Your muscles might " shrink " , but that

is just them leaning out. I wouldn't worry about it until you start getting

to a BF% of less than 8. Then, if you are still very restricted, you could

run into unwanted muscle loss. OTOH, there have been very few who have

tried it. If you keep up your training, I would expect you to continue to

get lighter and leaner, but very ripped, as the body would try to maintain

muscle mass.

Also, I wouldn't listen to anyone who says that you won't get a CR effect

unless you reach a certain weight. There is data to suggest that even 10%

restriction is plenty to get a CR effect. Plus, you should never take

somebody else's target (e.g. 1800 kcal) for yourself without verification

that it is appropriate for you personally. First, figure out where your

balance point is, where you don't gain or lose weight, and start restricting

gradually from there. Watch your progress and adjust if necessary.

Especially at your age there is no need to rush it.

regards,

chris

[ ] Maintaining muscle on CR diets

Hi Im a 23 year old male currently 6'0 " 240lbs and into weightlifting.

I like my size and strength but would like to begin a CR diet to

prolong life. Problem is that 1800kcal/day is very little for me and

will have a detrimental impact on my athletic endeavors. I can stand

to lose some fat and could even live with losing some muscle but Ive

been told that to get the CR effect Id have to drop to 130-140lbs.

Thats a 100lbs drop for me! At the weight I would look like a

holocaust victim. I know that the body has a " set point " that keep

ones weight within a reasonable range. Is it possible that even at

1800kcal/day my body will be able to keep me at a very lean

180-185lbs? I currently have about 20% bf so that puts me a 190lbs

lean anyway for what im asking is whether this diet will have the

effect of stripping away most of my fat yet retaining my muscle if I

keep my protein intake and muscle-building stimulus high?

thanks

---------------------------------

Ahhh...imagining that irresistible " new car " smell?

Check outnew cars at Autos.

_________________________________________________________________

MSN Messenger: instale grátis e converse com seus amigos.

http://messenger.msn.com.br

[Guest guest]

You didn't read the whole sentence. He said, " i feel bad for women since they

can't do CR, counteract the wafe look by lifting a lot and look good. "

BTW, it's spelled " waif " .

He just meant, IMO, that a woman who does CRON will be very thin, and can't use

weightlifting to keep her muscle mass. I'm not sure this is true. He may just

like the look of big muscles. I think thin women look *very* good, and very

healthy.

chris

*********

ops!

Now I am confused ;-)

Is there any truth to this statement:

" . i feel bad for women since they can't do CR " ????

Thanks!

[Guest guest]

At 12:17 PM 5/7/2007, you wrote:

>ops!

>

>Now I am confused ;-)

>

>Is there any truth to this statement:

>

> " . i feel bad for women since they can't do CR " ????

>

>No.

Maco

[Guest guest]

Hello Dave

I am sorry to hear that you have decreased your muscle

mass, although the proportion of fat - muscle is the

important thing.

Decreased muscle mass is a sign of aging, and

conversely, increased muscle mass, is what you need to

live longer and be healthier.

What we need to do is to decrease the fat, without

losing muscle.

The book which shows the research that supports my

comments is called:-

Age Power by Lesley Kenton.

In her research she shows how important muscle mass is

for your health.

I am concerned if the CR diet has made you less

strong.

--- orb85750 <orb85750@...> wrote:

> Over the years, my weight has ranged from the upper

> 130s to the upper

> 170s. Of course, I'm at the low end now, due to CR.

> I used to have

> a lot more muscle on my frame, but also

> significantly more fat. I

> now have well-defined muscle and good vascularity.

> However, I will

> say that, with respect to lifting weights, I am

> *much* weaker than I

> used to be. The poundages I am able to lift have

> dropped faster than

> my bodyweight (proportionally). This is illustrated

> well by the fact

> that I cannot do as many pullups at my current low

> bodyweight as I

> could do at a much higher bodyweight. Stamina is

> also an issue. I

> simply cannot spend as long in the gym as I used to.

> I become tired

> much more quickly. None of this is necessarily so

> bad. After all, I

> never had any aspirations to be a serious

> powerlifter. I am fit,

> healthy (my diet is better than it ever has been),

> and extending my

> life is far more important to me than being a strong

> guy in the gym!

> CRON is not *ideal* for bodybuilding, though it

> would be much worse

> for triathlon!

>

> -Dave

>

>

> >

> > Hi Im a 23 year old male currently 6'0 " 240lbs and

> into

> weightlifting.

> > I like my size and strength but would like to

> begin a CR diet to

> > prolong life. Problem is that 1800kcal/day is very

> little for me and

> > will have a detrimental impact on my athletic

> endeavors. I can stand

> > to lose some fat and could even live with losing

> some muscle but Ive

> > been told that to get the CR effect Id have to

> drop to 130-140lbs.

> > Thats a 100lbs drop for me! At the weight I would

> look like a

> > holocaust victim. I know that the body has a " set

> point " that keep

> > ones weight within a reasonable range. Is it

> possible that even at

> > 1800kcal/day my body will be able to keep me at a

> very lean

> > 180-185lbs? I currently have about 20% bf so that

> puts me a 190lbs

> > lean anyway for what im asking is whether this

> diet will have the

> > effect of stripping away most of my fat yet

> retaining my muscle if I

> > keep my protein intake and muscle-building

> stimulus high?

> > thanks

> >

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

___

How would you spend $50,000 to create a more sustainable environment in

Australia? Go to 7 Answers and share your idea.

http://advision.webevents./aunz/lifestyle/answers/y7ans-babp_reg.html

[Guest guest]

Hi :

I just googled Lesley Kenton. I don't know if it is the same Lesley

Kenton you have in mind, but it says the credentials of the one I

found are:

" ...... writer, novelist, broadcaster, lecturer, social activist

and shamanic practitioner, daughter of jazz musician Stan

Kenton, ...... "

If this is the same one, do you know of any reason we should be

paying attention to her views about health?

But the muscle mass issue is certainly an interesting one for people

on CR. And I am certainly interested to hear the views of serious

sources on this.

Rodney.

> > >

> > > Hi Im a 23 year old male currently 6'0 " 240lbs and

> > into

> > weightlifting.

> > > I like my size and strength but would like to

> > begin a CR diet to

> > > prolong life. Problem is that 1800kcal/day is very

> > little for me and

> > > will have a detrimental impact on my athletic

> > endeavors. I can stand

> > > to lose some fat and could even live with losing

> > some muscle but Ive

> > > been told that to get the CR effect Id have to

> > drop to 130-140lbs.

> > > Thats a 100lbs drop for me! At the weight I would

> > look like a

> > > holocaust victim. I know that the body has a " set

> > point " that keep

> > > ones weight within a reasonable range. Is it

> > possible that even at

> > > 1800kcal/day my body will be able to keep me at a

> > very lean

> > > 180-185lbs? I currently have about 20% bf so that

> > puts me a 190lbs

> > > lean anyway for what im asking is whether this

> > diet will have the

> > > effect of stripping away most of my fat yet

> > retaining my muscle if I

> > > keep my protein intake and muscle-building

> > stimulus high?

> > > thanks

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

_____________

> How would you spend $50,000 to create a more sustainable

environment in Australia? Go to 7 Answers and share your idea.

> http://advision.webevents./aunz/lifestyle/answers/y7ans-

babp_reg.html

>

[Guest guest]

OK, well I certainly should reply to this one! Yes, my muscle mass

has decreased, but my fat mass has too. Even professional

bodybuilders (yes, those monstrous steroid users) lose plenty of

muscle mass along with fat mass when they prepare for their stage

contests and get that 'ripped' look. Along with muscle mass loss

comes a loss in strength too. To be clear, I'm certainly no

weakling, and I venture to say that I'm much stronger than most 137-

lb. men and more muscular than the vast majority of men my age (36).

-Dave

> > >

> > > Hi Im a 23 year old male currently 6'0 " 240lbs and

> > into

> > weightlifting.

> > > I like my size and strength but would like to

> > begin a CR diet to

> > > prolong life. Problem is that 1800kcal/day is very

> > little for me and

> > > will have a detrimental impact on my athletic

> > endeavors. I can stand

> > > to lose some fat and could even live with losing

> > some muscle but Ive

> > > been told that to get the CR effect Id have to

> > drop to 130-140lbs.

> > > Thats a 100lbs drop for me! At the weight I would

> > look like a

> > > holocaust victim. I know that the body has a " set

> > point " that keep

> > > ones weight within a reasonable range. Is it

> > possible that even at

> > > 1800kcal/day my body will be able to keep me at a

> > very lean

> > > 180-185lbs? I currently have about 20% bf so that

> > puts me a 190lbs

> > > lean anyway for what im asking is whether this

> > diet will have the

> > > effect of stripping away most of my fat yet

> > retaining my muscle if I

> > > keep my protein intake and muscle-building

> > stimulus high?

> > > thanks

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

_____________

> How would you spend $50,000 to create a more sustainable

environment in Australia? Go to 7 Answers and share your idea.

> http://advision.webevents./aunz/lifestyle/answers/y7ans-

babp_reg.html

>