Re: Re: Becoming a vegetarian

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure how we would justify using the RDA. Those numbers for aminos were not calculated with the idea in mind we should restrict methionine for longevity.

[ ] Re: Becoming a vegetarian

Hi Ulf:One issue the methionine example seems to raise is: "how many of the other essential nutrients, besides calories and methionine, need to be restricted to no more than their RDA?"If anyone has evidence for others, needless to say, please post.Rodney.[PS: Just a reminder about something completely different for those residing in the more northerly part of the northern hemisphere: time to start taking vitamin D supplements again.]>> Calorie Restriction/Optimum NutritionExtreme flatulence made it difficult for me to shift to being a vegetarian. The problem is becoming manageable by first rinsing the legumes in water, than soaking them in water for 6-8 hours, discarding the water and then boiling them, intensely the first 10 minutes or so. I am now experimenting by adding kombu algae in the boiling phase. > > I want to acknowledge the helpful, generous postings by Rodney on methionine. It was his pedagogical, thorough and logically compelling essay on it quite some time ago that finally got me to take action. This, combined with the devastating environmental consequences of meat (greenhouse gas emissions), is causing me to give up my life-long love affair with (lean) meat. I'm not becoming a full vegetarian; I will still eat fat fish, and the occasional lean meat dish when offered at some private place or when travelling. > Ulf>

[Guest guest]

Her recipes in her book inlcuded butter, eggs, full fat dairy, etcBut in my opinion, it doesnt matter if it is full fat or not as fat is only one of the concerns with cancer. So is the protein. So is "excess". In our cancer studies, we make the experimental groups, dairy free.Jeff

[Guest guest]

There are certain populations that eat lots of protein.

Eskimos (at least they used to) eat whale meat for example and hardly anything else. (Perhaps that has changed in modern times). There are tribes in Africa that drink lots of milk. (Of course cannibals are an extreme example :-)).

It would be interesting to see if the below studies hold true for such populations.

From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 21:10:19 -0000

< >

Subject: [ ] Re: Becoming a vegetarian

Hi folks:

As far back as 1968 it had been noticed that liver cancer seemed to

be associated with high protein diets: PMID 4294825.

In response to those findings, quite a few years later experiments

were done with casein, a leading protein in milk, and a very strong

association was found between percent protein intake and liver cancer

incidence in rats exposed to aflatoxin, PMID: 2886567.

This was an interesting study because it found that no matter how

large the (toxic) aflatoxin dose, there was little cancer if protein

intake was held below 10% of calories. But above that protein intake

level, cancer incidence accelerated dramatically in a protein-dose

response curve.

Similar associations were found between protein intake and liver

cancer in humans in epidemiological studies in the Philippines.

I am not aware whether this applies to cancers other than liver

cancer.

I know I have said before (possibly here) that I have spent quite a

bit of time trying to figure out how to reduce my protein intake -

especially methionine. (IIRC 30% of the calories in spinach are from

protein!)

Of course if you reduce intake of fats and protein as much as is

reasonably practical ................... ; ^ )))

Rodney.

--- In <mailto: %40> , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...>

wrote:

>

> Her recipes in her book inlcuded butter, eggs, full fat dairy, etc

>

> But in my opinion, it doesnt matter if it is full fat or not as fat

is only one of the concerns with cancer. So is the protein. So

is " excess " . In our cancer studies, we make the experimental

groups, dairy free.

>

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

Rodney: I make that very caveat with all (or at least most) of my postings. That these are only one rat anecdotes.

And that is why I point to the study we have in the files where vegans and vegetarians lived no longer that health conscious “others”. We still have yet to see a study where those who restricted protein drastically (any in animals, perhaps?) fared better than health conscious meat/fish eaters.

From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 21:34:22 -0000

< >

Subject: [ ] Re: Becoming a vegetarian

Hi Francesca:

Well if you look at the survival curves of fully fed and restricted

rats, some of the restricted rats die at an early age, while a few of

the fully fed rats live to a *comparatively* great age.

So we have to look at hundreds of individuals in each group we wish

to define to get a fair impression of what the benefits or risks for

such a group are. And we also need to try to control for numerous

other factors many of which we probably don't yet even know what they

are! And, even then, there are no guarantees, or else all the

restricted mice would die at exactly the same age, and we would not

have a 'survival curve', but a 'survival dot' instead!

Rodney.

>

> > Ulf and everyone: bear in mind that there are studies that don’t

quite jibe

> > with Rod’s hypothesis (for example vegans and vegetarians don’t

live any

> > longer than health conscious meat/fish eaters – this is all in our

files). So

> > we need to keep searching for more answers. Becoming vegetarian

doesn’t seem

> > to guarantee a long life.

> >

> > Recently a famous vegetarian, Sri Chinmoy, known for his message

of world

> > peace and his promotion of meditation died. He was only 76. I

took a

> > meditation course just this past June given by one of his

disciples. I was

> > pretty shocked that he died younger than the average age for men

in the U.S.

> > (he had emigrated to Brooklyn, NY from India many years ago). He

had a huge

> > following. Supposedly he was in great shape all his life. Of

course he was

> > only one mouse......but this is disappointing nevertheless.

> >

> > That said, I second your “thanks” on behalf of everyone to Rod

who is one of

> > our best contributors.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>>>>Eskimos (at least they used to) eat whale meat for example and hardly anything else. (Perhaps that has changed in modern times). Their life expectancy, depending on which Eskimos is said to be in the 40shttp://www.eki.ee/books/redbook/asiatic_eskimos.shtmlhttp://www.trivia-library.com/b/people-races-ethnicity-in-the-u-s-eskimos-americans.htm

[Guest guest]

The Masai, an African tribe that is one that lives soley on Animal protein, and said to have "adapted" have a life expectancy in the 40s also.When you look at long lived populations, a plant based diet, is one of the common denominatorshttp://www.bluezones.com/live-longer-better/longevity-secrets/(Blue Zones™ is an ongoing project that is part of Quest Network, Inc. funded by the National Institute on Aging and National Geographic. Blue Zones studies the world’s longest-lived populations around the world for information and lifestyle characteristics that can help people live longer, better lives.)

[Guest guest]

Agreed. A plant based diet is what Walford originally wrote about and what most of us follow (or at least should be following). But Rod’s hypothesis is that severely restricting protein (or methionine) will lead to longer life.

This is a different shade of gray.

From: Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:49:44 -0700 (PDT)

< >

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Becoming a vegetarian

When you look at long lived populations, a plant based diet, is one of the common denominators

http://www.bluezones.com/live-longer-better/longevity-secrets/

(Blue Zones™ is an ongoing project that is part of Quest Network, Inc. funded by the National Institute on Aging and National Geographic. Blue Zones studies the world’s longest-lived populations around the world for information and lifestyle characteristics that can help people live longer, better lives.)

[Guest guest]

>>>Which is why, a vegan or vegetarian that follows calorie restriction is likely to be eating a healthier diet than the normal vegan or vegetarian person.ArturoCould you explain this? You copied my post, where I said, that vegans/vegetarians consume diets that are as unhealthy as typical Americans, not healthier. So, why would a vegan/vegetarian following CRON be more likely to eat a healthier diet?ThanksJeff

[Guest guest]

Hi Arturo Veve

Thanks.

I personally tend to agree with you, as my personal

experience wasn't much different.

I first went vegetarian in 1973 as part of my

involvement in yoga, meditation and also saw it from a

philosophical (spiritual) perspective. I was allergic

to dairy though so became vegan.

And, if we look at what it was like back then, I would

again agree with you. There was few if any

vegan/vegetarian junk food, or processed foods around.

So, being vegetarian meant you tended to eat

healthier. I do think one of the big mistakes that was

made was many vegetarians cut out all the animal

protein and over loaded up with dairy. They would have

been better off if they cut out all the dairy (or most

of it) and left in a little fish, as far as health

reasons.

But in the last decade or two, the amount of

vegetarian junk food has proliferated and many

vegetarians live on highly refined and processed

diets, that were never around in the 70s or earlier.

Thanks

jeff