Re: Becoming a vegetarian

[Guest guest]

Hi Ulf:

One issue the methionine example seems to raise is: " how many of the

other essential nutrients, besides calories and methionine, need to

be restricted to no more than their RDA? "

If anyone has evidence for others, needless to say, please post.

Rodney.

[PS: Just a reminder about something completely different for those

residing in the more northerly part of the northern hemisphere: time

to start taking vitamin D supplements again.]

>

> Calorie Restriction/Optimum NutritionExtreme flatulence made it

difficult for me to shift to being a vegetarian. The problem is

becoming manageable by first rinsing the legumes in water, than

soaking them in water for 6-8 hours, discarding the water and then

boiling them, intensely the first 10 minutes or so. I am now

experimenting by adding kombu algae in the boiling phase.

>

> I want to acknowledge the helpful, generous postings by Rodney on

methionine. It was his pedagogical, thorough and logically compelling

essay on it quite some time ago that finally got me to take action.

This, combined with the devastating environmental consequences of

meat (greenhouse gas emissions), is causing me to give up my life-

long love affair with (lean) meat. I'm not becoming a full

vegetarian; I will still eat fat fish, and the occasional lean meat

dish when offered at some private place or when travelling.

> Ulf

>

[Guest guest]

Ulf and everyone: bear in mind that there are studies that don’t quite jibe with Rod’s hypothesis (for example vegans and vegetarians don’t live any longer than health conscious meat/fish eaters – this is all in our files). So we need to keep searching for more answers. Becoming vegetarian doesn’t seem to guarantee a long life.

Recently a famous vegetarian, Sri Chinmoy, known for his message of world peace and his promotion of meditation died. He was only 76. I took a meditation course just this past June given by one of his disciples. I was pretty shocked that he died younger than the average age for men in the U.S. (he had emigrated to Brooklyn, NY from India many years ago). He had a huge following. Supposedly he was in great shape all his life. Of course he was only one mouse......but this is disappointing nevertheless.

That said, I second your “thanks” on behalf of everyone to Rod who is one of our best contributors.

From: Ulf Rasmusson <ulf.rasmusson@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:05:09 +0200

< >

Subject: [ ] Becoming a vegetarian

Extreme flatulence made it difficult for me to shift to being a vegetarian. The problem is becoming manageable by first rinsing the legumes in water, than soaking them in water for 6-8 hours, discarding the water and then boiling them, intensely the first 10 minutes or so. I am now experimenting by adding kombu algae in the boiling phase.

I want to acknowledge the helpful, generous postings by Rodney on methionine. It was his pedagogical, thorough and logically compelling essay on it quite some time ago that finally got me to take action. This, combined with the devastating environmental consequences of meat (greenhouse gas emissions), is causing me to give up my life-long love affair with (lean) meat. I'm not becoming a full vegetarian; I will still eat fat fish, and the occasional lean meat dish when offered at some private place or when travelling.

Ulf

[Guest guest]

I might also point to others: I recently posted about my relative, a young man in his 30’s who has been a vegan for the past 3 years and has been scrupulous about his health who is now quite sick with vasculitis, a serious auto-immune disorder.

I recall many years ago another famous vegetarian, Eastman McCartney ( McCartney’s first wife) who died of breast cancer in her 50’s.

OTOH, my husband’s uncle keeps going like the energizer bunny. He will be 97 this December, now lives alone in a two story house, mows the lawn himself, drives, cooks, and takes care of all his other needs including complex mental activities such as all bill paying, handling his finances, etc. He is not a vegetarian and is not especially vigilant about his health. He eats virtually the same meal every night (baked chicken, mashed potatoes and a cooked green veggie) and rarely eats raw fruits and veggies due to the loss of almost all his teeth. And fiercely independent in spite of my pleas to have him come and live with us for his remaining years.

Of course these are all isolated examples, nevertheless, makes one wonder..............

From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 09:04:32 -0400

support group < >

Conversation: [ ] Becoming a vegetarian

Subject: Re: [ ] Becoming a vegetarian

Recently a famous vegetarian, Sri Chinmoy, known for his message of world peace and his promotion of meditation died. He was only 76. I took a meditation course just this past June given by one of his disciples. I was pretty shocked that he died younger than the average age for men in the U.S. (he had emigrated to Brooklyn, NY from India many years ago). He had a huge following. Supposedly he was in great shape all his life. Of course he was only one mouse......but this is disappointing nevertheless.

From: Ulf Rasmusson <ulf.rasmusson@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:05:09 +0200

< >

Subject: [ ] Becoming a vegetarian

Extreme flatulence made it difficult for me to shift to being a vegetarian. The problem is becoming manageable by first rinsing the legumes in water, than soaking them in water for 6-8 hours, discarding the water and then boiling them, intensely the first 10 minutes or so. I am now experimenting by adding kombu algae in the boiling phase.

I want to acknowledge the helpful, generous postings by Rodney on methionine. It was his pedagogical, thorough and logically compelling essay on it quite some time ago that finally got me to take action. This, combined with the devastating environmental consequences of meat (greenhouse gas emissions), is causing me to give up my life-long love affair with (lean) meat. I'm not becoming a full vegetarian; I will still eat fat fish, and the occasional lean meat dish when offered at some private place or when travelling.

Ulf

[Guest guest]

> I recall many years ago another famous vegetarian,

> Eastman McCartney

> ( McCartney¹s first wife) who died of breast

> cancer in her 50¹s.

was a lacto veg, who consumed lots of dairy

products, a mistake many vegetarians make.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

I became a vegetarian on December 12, 1977, when I got on a PanAm

flight that eventually got me to Bombay, India, where I spent six

weeks two hours to the north in an ashram. I was a Hindu-style

vegetarian for about five years, then worked eggs back into the mix,

still eschewing the yolks. After 23 years, I reintroduced fish, and

in the last couple of years, birds. Works for me. Looking back, I

think it was probably good for me to have been a vegetarian for so

long, but sane consumption of fish and modest amounts of lean fowl,

together with dairy products, seems to me the soundest way to get

good nutrition without making eating an almost full-time job.

I'm convinced that veganism is a head trip that has no net

physiological benefits; rather the opposite, especially for women.

But that's just me.

;-)

Maco

[Guest guest]

He also endorsed marathoning, if memory serves.

Maco

At 07:04 AM 10/26/2007, you wrote:

Ulf and everyone: bear in mind

that there are studies that don’t quite jibe with Rod’s hypothesis (for

example vegans and vegetarians don’t live any longer than health

conscious meat/fish eaters – this is all in our files). So we need

to keep searching for more answers. Becoming vegetarian doesn’t

seem to guarantee a long life.

Recently a famous vegetarian, Sri Chinmoy, known for his message of world

peace and his promotion of meditation died. He was only 76. I

took a meditation course just this past June given by one of his

disciples. I was pretty shocked that he died younger than the

average age for men in the U.S. (he had emigrated to Brooklyn, NY from

India many years ago). He had a huge following. Supposedly he

was in great shape all his life. Of course he was only one

mouse......but this is disappointing nevertheless.

That said, I second your “thanks” on behalf of everyone to Rod who is one

of our best contributors.

From: Ulf Rasmusson <ulf.rasmusson@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:05:09 +0200

< >

Subject: [ ] Becoming a vegetarian

Extreme flatulence made it difficult for me to shift to being a

vegetarian. The problem is becoming manageable by first rinsing the

legumes in water, than soaking them in water for 6-8 hours, discarding

the water and then boiling them, intensely the first 10 minutes or so. I

am now experimenting by adding kombu algae in the boiling phase.

I want to acknowledge the helpful, generous postings by Rodney on

methionine. It was his pedagogical, thorough and logically compelling

essay on it quite some time ago that finally got me to take action. This,

combined with the devastating environmental consequences of meat

(greenhouse gas emissions), is causing me to give up my life-long love

affair with (lean) meat. I'm not becoming a full vegetarian; I will still

eat fat fish, and the occasional lean meat dish when offered at some

private place or when travelling.

Ulf

[Guest guest]

Jeff, do you know if her dairy was " full fat? " Or are you suggesting

low-fat dairy poses a risk too?

bill4cr

>

>

> > I recall many years ago another famous vegetarian,

> > Eastman McCartney

> > ( McCartney¹s first wife) who died of breast

> > cancer in her 50¹s.

>

> was a lacto veg, who consumed lots of dairy

> products, a mistake many vegetarians make.

>

> Regards

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

I also rationalize and look to make sense of these individual “failures” as much as Jeff (“ Eastman ate dairy”) or Maco (“Sri Chinmoy ran marathons”).

But if methionine (or restriction thereof) was ultra important, and it’s a fair assumption that these people ate none of it (or in Eastman’s case some, but perhaps less than the typical American) shouldn’t that have offered them at least some protection? Shouldn’t they at least have reached the “average” age at death and not die even younger than average? Something is wrong at least in their cases. And the study cited earlier (that vegans/vegetarians die at the same rate as health conscious “others) bears that out.

My husband’s uncle btw, smothers his nightly Chicken in canned cream of mushroom soup (which contains cream, salt, trans-fat (?) and lord knows what crap). My mother was also independent til an advanced age 97 1/2) but she had occasional flare-ups of arthritis. Uncle Bep has no such problems – an occasional upset stomach is his only complaint.

From: Maco <mstewart@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 10:16:47 -0600

< >

Subject: Re: [ ] Becoming a vegetarian

He also endorsed marathoning, if memory serves.

Maco

At 07:04 AM 10/26/2007, you wrote:

Ulf and everyone: bear in mind that there are studies that don’t quite jibe with Rod’s hypothesis (for example vegans and vegetarians don’t live any longer than health conscious meat/fish eaters – this is all in our files). So we need to keep searching for more answers. Becoming vegetarian doesn’t seem to guarantee a long life.

Recently a famous vegetarian, Sri Chinmoy, known for his message of world peace and his promotion of meditation died. He was only 76. I took a meditation course just this past June given by one of his disciples. I was pretty shocked that he died younger than the average age for men in the U.S. (he had emigrated to Brooklyn, NY from India many years ago). He had a huge following. Supposedly he was in great shape all his life. Of course he was only one mouse......but this is disappointing nevertheless.

That said, I second your “thanks” on behalf of everyone to Rod who is one of our best contributors.

[Guest guest]

An important comment, which I make to the vegans/vegetarians all the time, including the professional ones..the terms vegan and/or vegetarian do not in any way imply ANY health criteria. They are more philosophical terms and not health guidelines.They are both exclusionary terms and not inclusionary terms. They only tell me what someone doesn't eat and not what someone does it.I just had a long debate this week with the head of PCRM and their lead researcher over this. I said that claiming the benefit in the last 2 studies of theirs is due to a "vegan" diet is misleading, as it is not the "vegan" component that made the vegan group have the health advantage. To me, it is no different than saying someone is "kosher" and trying to claim kosher is healthier. While I can create an extremely health diet that is kosher, I can also create one that isnt. The kosher aspect would not be the deciding factor in the health

benefit. Kosher does not imply healthy criteria.Sadly, the terms vegan and vegetarian have been promoted over the years as being "healthier", and the main reason why people become vegan/vegetarian is for health reasons. Yet many of the followers have consumed diets and led lifestyles that are anything but healthy. Just look at all the vegan and vegetarian junk food in the stores and restaurants. And, I know first hand, as I have seen many of them as patients over the years who do not understand why they are not healthy since they have been vegan/vegetarian. They struggle, with diabetes, heart disease, cancers, obesity, etc. And, I have spoken at almost every large vegan/vegetarian conference in the last 10 years and see many overweight unhealthy vegans/vegetarians. I just came back from the Boston Veg Food Fest where they estimate 10K were there. The demographics were no different that of

typical Americans. They longtime head of the group is morbidly obese.It is for these reasons why vegans and vegetarians will never, in and of itself, show any health advantages. In and of itself, it isnt healthier. There are certain dietary and lifestyle principles that we know lead to health and longevity. Can someone incorporate those principle and be a vegan/vegetarian? yes. Does that mean every vegan/vegetarian does so? no. If these people died earlier and suffered from disease from an early age, there are reasons. Being vegan/vegetarian is not the reason why, nor is the reason why they shouldnt have. ThanksJeff

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

As far back as 1968 it had been noticed that liver cancer seemed to

be associated with high protein diets: PMID 4294825.

In response to those findings, quite a few years later experiments

were done with casein, a leading protein in milk, and a very strong

association was found between percent protein intake and liver cancer

incidence in rats exposed to aflatoxin, PMID: 2886567.

This was an interesting study because it found that no matter how

large the (toxic) aflatoxin dose, there was little cancer if protein

intake was held below 10% of calories. But above that protein intake

level, cancer incidence accelerated dramatically in a protein-dose

response curve.

Similar associations were found between protein intake and liver

cancer in humans in epidemiological studies in the Philippines.

I am not aware whether this applies to cancers other than liver

cancer.

I know I have said before (possibly here) that I have spent quite a

bit of time trying to figure out how to reduce my protein intake -

especially methionine. (IIRC 30% of the calories in spinach are from

protein!)

Of course if you reduce intake of fats and protein as much as is

reasonably practical ................... ; ^ )))

Rodney.

--- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...>

wrote:

>

> Her recipes in her book inlcuded butter, eggs, full fat dairy, etc

>

> But in my opinion, it doesnt matter if it is full fat or not as fat

is only one of the concerns with cancer. So is the protein. So

is " excess " . In our cancer studies, we make the experimental

groups, dairy free.

>

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

Well if you look at the survival curves of fully fed and restricted

rats, some of the restricted rats die at an early age, while a few of

the fully fed rats live to a *comparatively* great age.

So we have to look at hundreds of individuals in each group we wish

to define to get a fair impression of what the benefits or risks for

such a group are. And we also need to try to control for numerous

other factors many of which we probably don't yet even know what they

are! And, even then, there are no guarantees, or else all the

restricted mice would die at exactly the same age, and we would not

have a 'survival curve', but a 'survival dot' instead!

Rodney.

>

> > Ulf and everyone: bear in mind that there are studies that don¹t

quite jibe

> > with Rod¹s hypothesis (for example vegans and vegetarians don¹t

live any

> > longer than health conscious meat/fish eaters ­ this is all in our

files). So

> > we need to keep searching for more answers. Becoming vegetarian

doesn¹t seem

> > to guarantee a long life.

> >

> > Recently a famous vegetarian, Sri Chinmoy, known for his message

of world

> > peace and his promotion of meditation died. He was only 76. I

took a

> > meditation course just this past June given by one of his

disciples. I was

> > pretty shocked that he died younger than the average age for men

in the U.S.

> > (he had emigrated to Brooklyn, NY from India many years ago). He

had a huge

> > following. Supposedly he was in great shape all his life. Of

course he was

> > only one mouse......but this is disappointing nevertheless.

> >

> > That said, I second your ³thanks² on behalf of everyone to Rod

who is one of

> > our best contributors.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Re: Becoming a vegetarian

Posted by: " Jeff Novick " chefjeff40@... chefjeff40

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:21 am (PST)

Sadly, the terms vegan and vegetarian have been promoted over the years as being

" healthier " , and the main reason why people become vegan/vegetarian is for

health reasons. Yet many of the followers have consumed diets and led lifestyles

that are anything but healthy. Just look at all the vegan and vegetarian junk

food in the stores and restaurants.

And, I know first hand, as I have seen many of them as patients over the years

who do not understand why they are not healthy since they have been

vegan/vegetarian. They struggle, with diabetes, heart disease, cancers, obesity,

etc. And, I have spoken at almost every large vegan/vegetarian conference in the

last 10 years and see many overweight unhealthy vegans/vegetarians. I just came

back from the Boston Veg Food Fest where they estimate 10K were there. The

demographics were no different that of typical Americans. They longtime head of

the group is morbidly obese.

-------------------------

All

Which is why, a vegan or vegetarian that follows calorie restriction is likely

to be eating a healthier diet than the normal vegan or vegetarian person. I'm

primarily vegan but sometimes consume cheese as my only ocassional dairy. My

reasons for being vegetarian at different times of my life have always been

spiritual, not for health - I was going to be a monk in my 20s; I picked up yoga

in my 40s. Both activities involve being vegetarian. I know several monks that

are vegetarian and overweight, but less so than the huge people roaming the

streets. The yoga tradition I follow encourages consumption of dairy, but I

can't digest dairy too well, so I consume it very sparingly. Just sharing my

personal experience with vegetarianism. To avoid flatulence, I consume

Beane-zime twice daily. I go to the bathroom more often than the average person

(2- 3 times daily) since my consumption of dietary fiber is really high.

Cheers

Arturo

[Guest guest]

For obvious reasons, anecdotal evidence is of limited use, so here are

a couple of classic scientific studies, of which many of you may be

aware. The first compares a prudent vegetarian diet with a prudent

omnivorous one:

Cardiovascular disease risk factors in free-living men: comparison of

two prudent diets, one based on lactoovovegetarianism and the other

allowing lean meat

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 50, 280-287

M Kestin, IL Rouse, RA Correll and PJ Nestel

CSIRO Division of Human Nutrition, Adelaide, Australia.

In general, vegetarians have lower serum lipids and blood pressures

than omnivores have. We tested the blood pressure and serum lipid

lowering effects of two fat-modified diets differing primarily in

their source of protein. Twenty-six men were randomized in an

incomplete block design to two of three diets: a high-fat diet, a

fat-modified lactoovovegetarian diet (LOV) and a diet in which 60% of

plant protein in the LOV was replaced with lean meat (LM). Compared

with the high-fat diet both prudent diets significantly lowered blood

pressure, serum total cholesterol (TC), and LDL cholesterol but

significantly increased serum triglycerides. The LOV diet had a

significantly greater cholesterol-lowering effect than did the LM diet

(10% vs 5% decrease) but blood pressure reductions were similar. The

partial substitution of lean meat for plant protein in a fat-modified

diet did not negate the overall cardiovascular-risk lowering of the

lactoovovegetarian diet.

.. . .And here is a study on animal product consumption and mortality:

Animal product consumption and mortality because of all causes

combined, coronary heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and cancer in

Seventh-day Adventists

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 48, 739-748

DA Snowdon

Division of Epidemiology, School of Public Health, University of

Minnesota, Minneapolis.

This report reviews, contrasts, and illustrates previously published

findings from a cohort of 27,529 California Seventh-day Adventist

adults who completed questionnaires in 1960 and were followed for

mortality between 1960 and 1980. Within this population, meat

consumption was positively associated with mortality because of all

causes of death combined (in males), coronary heart disease (in males

and females), and diabetes (in males). Egg consumption was positively

associated with mortality because of all causes combined (in females),

coronary heart disease (in females), and cancers of the colon (in

males and females combined) and ovary. Milk consumption was positively

associated with only prostate cancer mortality, and cheese consumption

did not have a clear relationship with any cause of death. The

consumption of meat, eggs, milk, and cheese did not have negative

associations with any of the causes of death investigated.

-Dave

>

> I might also point to others: I recently posted about my relative,

a young

> man in his 30¹s who has been a vegan for the past 3 years and has been

> scrupulous about his health who is now quite sick with vasculitis, a

serious

> auto-immune disorder.

>

> I recall many years ago another famous vegetarian, Eastman

McCartney

> ( McCartney¹s first wife) who died of breast cancer in her 50¹s.

>

> OTOH, my husband¹s uncle keeps going like the energizer bunny. He

will be

> 97 this December, now lives alone in a two story house, mows the lawn

> himself, drives, cooks, and takes care of all his other needs including

> complex mental activities such as all bill paying, handling his

finances,

> etc. He is not a vegetarian and is not especially vigilant about his

> health. He eats virtually the same meal every night (baked chicken,

mashed

> potatoes and a cooked green veggie) and rarely eats raw fruits and

veggies

> due to the loss of almost all his teeth. And fiercely independent

in spite

> of my pleas to have him come and live with us for his remaining years.

>

> Of course these are all isolated examples, nevertheless, makes one

> wonder..............

>

>

> From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>

> Reply-< >

> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 09:04:32 -0400

> support group < >

> Conversation: [ ] Becoming a vegetarian

> Subject: Re: [ ] Becoming a vegetarian

>

> Recently a famous vegetarian, Sri Chinmoy, known for his message of

world

> peace and his promotion of meditation died. He was only 76. I took a

> meditation course just this past June given by one of his disciples.

I was

> pretty shocked that he died younger than the average age for men in

the U.S.

> (he had emigrated to Brooklyn, NY from India many years ago). He

had a huge

> following. Supposedly he was in great shape all his life. Of

course he was

> only one mouse......but this is disappointing nevertheless.

>

>

>

>

> From: Ulf Rasmusson <ulf.rasmusson@...>

> Reply-< >

> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 12:05:09 +0200

> < >

> Subject: [ ] Becoming a vegetarian

>

>

>

>

>

> Extreme flatulence made it difficult for me to shift to being a

vegetarian.

> The problem is becoming manageable by first rinsing the legumes in

water,

> than soaking them in water for 6-8 hours, discarding the water and then

> boiling them, intensely the first 10 minutes or so. I am now

experimenting

> by adding kombu algae in the boiling phase.

>

> I want to acknowledge the helpful, generous postings by Rodney on

> methionine. It was his pedagogical, thorough and logically

compelling essay

> on it quite some time ago that finally got me to take action. This,

combined

> with the devastating environmental consequences of meat (greenhouse gas

> emissions), is causing me to give up my life-long love affair with

(lean)

> meat. I'm not becoming a full vegetarian; I will still eat fat fish,

and the

> occasional lean meat dish when offered at some private place or when

> travelling.

> Ulf

>

[Guest guest]

Posted by: " Jeff Novick " chefjeff40@... chefjeff40

>>>Which is why, a vegan or vegetarian that follows calorie restriction is

likely to be eating a healthier diet than the normal vegan or vegetarian person.

Arturo

Could you explain this? You copied my post, where I said, that

vegans/vegetarians consume diets that are as unhealthy as typical Americans, not

healthier. So, why would a vegan/vegetarian following CRON be more likely to eat

a healthier diet?

Thanks

Jeff

--------------------

Hi Jeff

Sorry, I meant to address my comment to you. I always find your posts and

comments helpful. I was only reacting to two things. One is that from my one-rat

perspective, I turned to vegetarianism for spiritual reasons. Most of the people

I know who are vegetarian turned to it for similar reasons, such as joining a

spiritual practice that encouraged vegetarianism. I don't have a scientific post

with statistics of how many people choose it for ethical grounds, how many for

health. The other thing I was reacting to is that participation in calorie

restriction groups has educated me on nutrition in general. Since my style of

eating is vegetarian, because I observe the guidlines offered here, it is a

healthy vegetarian style. Dennis pointed this out well. I'm not comparing a CRON

vegetarian diet to a CRON meat eating diet. But logic would tell you that a CRON

vegetarian diet is healthier than the average American meat eating diet.

Dame developed a healthy vegan cookbook. The benefits of his cookbook is

that if offers recipes that are low fat, low sodium, gluten free, low calories.

That sounds like healthier than the fare in a standard cookbook.

Cheers,

Arturo

[Guest guest]

How does a vegan or vegetarian get enough zinc and copper in a CRON diet?

The RDA is 10 mg of zinc (

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/cc/zinc.html )and 2mg of copper per day.

If you exercise the requirements are higher. As far as I can tell, a vegan

either needs to use supplements or eat oysters (as recommended in 120-year

Diet book). So far the supplements I have found are not sufficiently

bio-available as measured using the zinc taste test (

http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T291481.html ).

Also are there recommendations to measure optimum zinc and copper levels in

our body?

Any suggestions?

Ken

[Guest guest]

Wheat germ is an excellent source of zinc and copper. Many vegan

foods are high in mineral content. Check your CRONometer or a website

such as nutritiondata.com for nutrient levels.

-Dave

>

> How does a vegan or vegetarian get enough zinc and copper in a CRON

diet?

> The RDA is 10 mg of zinc (

> http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/cc/zinc.html )and 2mg of copper per

day.

> If you exercise the requirements are higher. As far as I can tell,

a vegan

> either needs to use supplements or eat oysters (as recommended in

120-year

> Diet book). So far the supplements I have found are not sufficiently

> bio-available as measured using the zinc taste test (

> http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T291481.html ).

>

> Also are there recommendations to measure optimum zinc and copper

levels in

> our body?

>

> Any suggestions?

>

> Ken

>