Re: Relative effect of fats on cholesterol levels

[Guest guest]

[...]

> I applied the Hegsted equation to the fatty acid ratios of several

> fats and summarized this information in my web page:

>

> http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/fattyacids2.html

>

> Relative effect on blood cholesterol of several common dietary fats

> when included as 10% of the total calories. This corresponds to 200

> Calories of a 2000-Calorie diet, which is approximately 22 grams or

> slightly less than 2 Tablespoons of fat.

>

> Butterfat 1788

> Coconut oil 1674

> Lard 630

> Olive oil 89

> Canola oil -514

> Corn oil -870

> Soybean oil -908

> Sunflower oil* -1142

> Grape seed oil -1196

> Safflower oil* -1310

> * Not high-oleic

If you should get the time (or should I), it would be great

to see the various nut butters on here: tahini, peanut, almond,

cashew, etc..

Thanks,

-

[Guest guest]

Could the presence of MCTs in unrefined tropical oils, such as

coconut, have a mitigating effect with respect to raising

cholesterol? Producers, such as Nutiva, market their virgin coconut

oil as 'healthy.' Of course, there has to be some bias here, but

they also point to the fact that the older studies showing

deleterious effects of coconut oil consumption used partially

hydrogenated coconut oil! They claim that virgin coconut oil is a

completely different story. Any thoughts? For details from Nutiva,

see:

http://nutiva.com/cocoinfo/healthy.php

-Dave

> > >

> > > This chart is in our �links� section:

> > >

> > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-table.html

> > >

> > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>

> > > Reply-< >

> > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000

> > > < >

> > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood fats

> > >

> > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very small amounts--

far

> > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of sunflower oil,

> > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds, peanuts,

and

> > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)

> > >

> > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil and palm

kernal

> > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm oil and

olive

> > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood cholesterol/lipid

profile).

> > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are aware?

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > -Dave

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave:

Thoughts? Here are mine:

This has been discussed here before when someone said they took a

tablespoon of coconut oil every day. I replied that coconut oil was

100% fat and of that fat ~85% (I forget the exact number) was

saturated fat.

I was then informed offlist that coconut fat was different, and I was

told to read a long article promoting coconut. Although it went on

for pages and pages in essence the only claim made in the article was

(not joking here) that if you were marooned on a desert island and

needed intravenous fluids, had the equipment to administer it, but

not the fluids themselves, coconut milk would do as a substitute in a

pinch (!!!)

So, my question for these people who say coconut oil is healthy, is

WHAT IS THEIR EVIDENCE? I do not anticipate I will be needing to

take coconut intravenously any time soon.

Besides, as we all know, all oils are loaded with calories, and

pretty much nothing in the way of micronutrients - the antithesis of

nutrient density!

I calculated once that beef fat (which most people believe is not

healthy) has only a very small (IIRC 5%) percentage of myristic and

lauric acids. But for coconut fat it is ~60%!

Everyone here is a free agent to do whatever they want, of course.

But they had better be sure of their ground that the fats in coconut

are healthy. Remember, probably the worst location in the world for

heart disease is not north America, but south Asia - India, Sri

Lanka, etc.. And they use a lot of coconut products.

I believe the InterHeart people are trying to establish the reason

for this, so far unexplained, CVD in south Asia, and they have told

me it will be some years before they figure it out.

So, are there any SERIOUS sources (not Enig, or Weston Price, or the

Coconut Producers ative) who have done studies, available on

PubMed, that support the views these people hold? If so, let's see

them, please.

Rodney.

> > > >

> > > > This chart is in our �links� section:

> > > >

> > > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-table.html

> > > >

> > > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>

> > > > Reply-< >

> > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000

> > > > < >

> > > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood fats

> > > >

> > > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very small

amounts--

> far

> > > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of sunflower

oil,

> > > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds,

peanuts,

> and

> > > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)

> > > >

> > > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil and palm

> kernal

> > > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm oil and

> olive

> > > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood cholesterol/lipid

> profile).

> > > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are aware?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > -Dave

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I do not believe that there is enough (or any?) good evidence to show

that even virgin tropical oils, such as coconut, are healthy.

*However*, nor have I found studies indicating that virgin tropical

oils are more unhealthy than most other commonly used oils. Given

that the old studies of decades ago used partially hydrogenated

coconut oil, it is not at all surprising that the result was a raised

cholesterol level. Certainly, the same could be said for partially

hydrogenated soybean oil, cottonseed oil, etc. Can anyone refer us

to a study showing unrefined, nonhydrogenated, virgin tropical oils

to be deleterious to one's blood profile? Perhaps if such studies

existed, then companies such as Nutiva would be forced by the FTC (or

FDA) to stop promoting virgin coconut oil as healthy?

-Dave

> > > >

> > > > This chart is in our �links� section:

> > > >

> > > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-table.html

> > > >

> > > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>

> > > > Reply-< >

> > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000

> > > > < >

> > > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood fats

> > > >

> > > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very small

amounts--

> far

> > > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of sunflower

oil,

> > > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds,

peanuts,

> and

> > > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)

> > > >

> > > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil and palm

> kernal

> > > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm oil and

> olive

> > > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood cholesterol/lipid

> profile).

> > > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are aware?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > -Dave

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave:

First, the internet is full of literally millions of websites making

any number of claims about all kinds of things. Most of us regard

obscure websites as not worth visiting.

Second, any website that is telling us how healthy various food

products are, is not supplying serious evidence for their claims, and

at the same time is trying to sell those foods to website visitors,

is NOT considered a source worth posting here. That includes your

Nutiva link. You are aware I think of the kind of sources that are

considered acceptable.

Third, 70% of coconut oil is lauric, myristic and palmitic acids.

The remaining 30% is other fats.

Fourth, take a look at the following papers found in a PubMed search:

PMID: 16477803. The abstract starts by saying:

" More than 40 years ago, saturated FA with 12, 14, and 16 carbon

atoms (lauric acid, myristic acid, and palmitic acid) were

demonstrated to be " hypercholesterolemic saturated FA " . " and:

PMID: 8475888, the abstract of which contains the following:

" This suggest that the cholesterol-raising properties of saturated

fatty acids should be attributed solely to lauric acid (12:0),

myristic acid (14:0), and palmitic acid (16:0). "

To repeat, these fats account for 70% of coconut oil!

If people make claims that a food is healthy it is not up to us to

prove it isn't. It is up to them to provide references which support

their claims. Why not write to Nutiva and ask them if they have any

serious evidence?

Rodney.

> > > > >

> > > > > This chart is in our �links� section:

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-table.html

> > > > >

> > > > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>

> > > > > Reply-< >

> > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000

> > > > > < >

> > > > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood fats

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very small

> amounts--

> > far

> > > > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of sunflower

> oil,

> > > > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds,

> peanuts,

> > and

> > > > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)

> > > > >

> > > > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil and

palm

> > kernal

> > > > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm oil

and

> > olive

> > > > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood cholesterol/lipid

> > profile).

> > > > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are aware?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > -Dave

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave:

And for good measure throw in this one too:

" We conclude both lauric and palmitic acids are hypercholesterolemic

compared with oleic acid. Lauric acid raises total cholesterol

concentrations more than palmitic acid, which is partly due to a

stronger rise in HDL cholesterol. "

And stuff has been posted here in the past year which suggests oleic

acid, apparently used as the measurement base in this paper, is

hypercholesterolemic also, although not to the same extent as lauric,

palmitic and myristic. This includes a post by Tony in the past few

days.

(From: PMID 8644684)

Rodney.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This chart is in our �links� section:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-table.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>

> > > > > > Reply-< >

> > > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000

> > > > > > < >

> > > > > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood fats

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very small

> > amounts--

> > > far

> > > > > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of

sunflower

> > oil,

> > > > > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds,

> > peanuts,

> > > and

> > > > > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil and

> palm

> > > kernal

> > > > > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm oil

> and

> > > olive

> > > > > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood cholesterol/lipid

> > > profile).

> > > > > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are aware?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > -Dave

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Rodney,I am so glad that you wrote this reply.  Without any disrespect to the previous poster, I think we all need to take a deep breath and consider the sources of so much of the information found on the internet.As a nurse anesthetist who tries to keep current in her field, I always ask a couple questions when I read a paper on my field. (1) is this information peer reviewed and evidence based? (2) who has an interest (usually financial) in this information and (3) does it make sense, or is it just fulfilling someone's need to publish for tenure and (4) is it practical and useful?These same questions and many more need to be asked regarding all of the "stuff" on the internet in regards to the aging process.  It is becoming very confusing to try to separate the anecdotes from real science and to come up with something that actually is workable.For me, I am working on restricting calories and maintaining nutrition by eating a wide variety of good tasting, mostly organic and in-season local food.  I enjoy meat and fish and eat some at least 3-4 times a week.  I hope we soon see some really good scientific human studies on this way of eating.  While I was negative about anecdotal information, I will offer a personal perspective that has made a difference for me.  Exercise (yoga, light weights and walking) and sleeping better.  Hopefully those two topics will be part of major longevity studies.Thanks for all of the good information and encouraging a quest for more knowledge.MJ ManninoOn Oct 12, 2007, at 4:19 PM, Rodney wrote:Hi Dave:First, the internet is full of literally millions of websites making any number of claims about all kinds of things. Most of us regard obscure websites as not worth visiting.Second, any website that is telling us how healthy various food products are, is not supplying serious evidence for their claims, and at the same time is trying to sell those foods to website visitors, is NOT considered a source worth posting here. That includes your Nutiva link. You are aware I think of the kind of sources that are considered acceptable.Third, 70% of coconut oil is lauric, myristic and palmitic acids. The remaining 30% is other fats.Fourth, take a look at the following papers found in a PubMed search:PMID: 16477803. The abstract starts by saying:"More than 40 years ago, saturated FA with 12, 14, and 16 carbon atoms (lauric acid, myristic acid, and palmitic acid) were demonstrated to be "hypercholesterolemic saturated FA". " and:PMID: 8475888, the abstract of which contains the following: "This suggest that the cholesterol-raising properties of saturated fatty acids should be attributed solely to lauric acid (12:0), myristic acid (14:0), and palmitic acid (16:0)."To repeat, these fats account for 70% of coconut oil!If people make claims that a food is healthy it is not up to us to prove it isn't. It is up to them to provide references which support their claims. Why not write to Nutiva and ask them if they have any serious evidence? Rodney. > > > > >> > > > > This chart is in our �links� section:> > > > > > > > > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-table.html> > > > > > > > > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>> > > > > Reply-< >> > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000> > > > > < >> > > > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood fats> > > > > > > > > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very small > amounts--> > far> > > > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of sunflower > oil,> > > > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds, > peanuts, > > and> > > > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)> > > > > > > > > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil and palm > > kernal> > > > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm oil and > > olive> > > > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood cholesterol/lipid > > profile).> > > > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are aware?> > > > > > > > > > Thanks,> > > > > -Dave> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Though the points you make below are sensible, it is not completely

clear with whom the burden of proof lies, given that the the primary

component of virgin coconut oil is lauric acid, which raises *both*

the good HDL cholesterol and the bad LDL cholesterol (American

Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 63, 897-903). To dismiss lauric

acid outright as " unhealthy " may require more proof of a clinical

nature. Such ambiguity may allow for both pro and con claims.

Obviously those trying to sell virgin coconut oil will have nothing

but positive statements to make about it and lauric acid. . . . But,

contrast this situation with that of trans fats, shown in several

studies to *lower* good HDL and raise LDL (a much more clear-cut

case, indeed).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This chart is in our �links� section:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-table.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>

> > > > > > Reply-< >

> > > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000

> > > > > > < >

> > > > > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood fats

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very small

> > amounts--

> > > far

> > > > > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of

sunflower

> > oil,

> > > > > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds,

> > peanuts,

> > > and

> > > > > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil and

> palm

> > > kernal

> > > > > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm oil

> and

> > > olive

> > > > > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood cholesterol/lipid

> > > profile).

> > > > > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are aware?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > -Dave

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi :

You, and of course everyone else also, are free to eat whatever you

wish.

But if the people who make these claims, and are trying to sell us

these products, are unable to provide serious evidence to support

their assertions, then on the basis of WHAT did they come to their

conclusions in the first place? Answer this question for me, please.

Or, put another way, tell us specifically what their evidence is. By

this I mean supply the peer-reviewed references on which they rely

for their recommendations, preferably from PubMed. Then we will each

be able to give thought to whether we consider that evidence worth

paying attention to. Some of us may, others may not. Which is, of

course, fine ......... we must each base our own decisions on the,

incomplete, evidence we personally consider worth listening to.

And hopefully we have all read and understood the section in 'Beyond

the 120-Year Diet' devoted to the question of which types of evidence

are well worth paying serious attention to, and which are best

discarded in the trash without reading.

Please, what is their evidence?

Rodney.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This chart is in our �links� section:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-table.html

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>

> > > > > > > Reply-< >

> > > > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000

> > > > > > > < >

> > > > > > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood fats

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very small

> > > amounts--

> > > > far

> > > > > > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of

> sunflower

> > > oil,

> > > > > > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds,

> > > peanuts,

> > > > and

> > > > > > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil

and

> > palm

> > > > kernal

> > > > > > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm

oil

> > and

> > > > olive

> > > > > > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood

cholesterol/lipid

> > > > profile).

> > > > > > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are aware?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > -Dave

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

To be clear, I am certainly not advocating use of coconut

oil, but I am trying to make the point that it may

neither be very healthy or very unhealthy. I personally

do not use it. (I don't even have any in the house.)

It is clearly not as unhealthy as trans fatty acids,

so occasional use may be acceptable. As I stated

in my previous post, I am unable to find *any* hard scientific

journal-level proof that coconut oil is healthy, despite

claims made by producers. I'm consuming about 1700 calories

per day, consisting almost entirely of low-fat whole foods.

I'll be sticking with EFAs, not coconut, soybean, or olive oil!

-Dave

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This chart is in our �links� section:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-

table.html

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>

> > > > > > > > Reply-< >

> > > > > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000

> > > > > > > > < >

> > > > > > > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood

fats

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very

small

> > > > amounts--

> > > > > far

> > > > > > > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of

> > sunflower

> > > > oil,

> > > > > > > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds,

> > > > peanuts,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil

> and

> > > palm

> > > > > kernal

> > > > > > > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm

> oil

> > > and

> > > > > olive

> > > > > > > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood

> cholesterol/lipid

> > > > > profile).

> > > > > > > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are

aware?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > > -Dave

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

People will believe anything. I recently had an heated exchange on a local community type list in my neighborhood. A woman was offering cooking courses and touted coconut oil as a healthy way to cook.. After I questioned this she quoted Mercola, (who is being investigated by the FDA for his false claims).

From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:19:41 -0000

< >

Subject: [ ] Re: Relative effect of fats on cholesterol levels

Hi Dave:

First, the internet is full of literally millions of websites making

any number of claims about all kinds of things. Most of us regard

obscure websites as not worth visiting.

Second, any website that is telling us how healthy various food

products are, is not supplying serious evidence for their claims, and

at the same time is trying to sell those foods to website visitors,

is NOT considered a source worth posting here. That includes your

Nutiva link. You are aware I think of the kind of sources that are

considered acceptable.

Third, 70% of coconut oil is lauric, myristic and palmitic acids.

The remaining 30% is other fats.

Fourth, take a look at the following papers found in a PubMed search:

PMID: 16477803. The abstract starts by saying:

" More than 40 years ago, saturated FA with 12, 14, and 16 carbon

atoms (lauric acid, myristic acid, and palmitic acid) were

demonstrated to be " hypercholesterolemic saturated FA " . " and:

PMID: 8475888, the abstract of which contains the following:

" This suggest that the cholesterol-raising properties of saturated

fatty acids should be attributed solely to lauric acid (12:0),

myristic acid (14:0), and palmitic acid (16:0). "

To repeat, these fats account for 70% of coconut oil!

If people make claims that a food is healthy it is not up to us to

prove it isn't. It is up to them to provide references which support

their claims. Why not write to Nutiva and ask them if they have any

serious evidence?

Rodney.

> > > > >

> > > > > This chart is in our ï¿∏linksï¿∏ section:

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.manitobaharvest.com/nutrition/comp-table.html

> > > > >

> > > > > And there are plenty of others on the internet.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > From: orb85750 <orb85750@>

> > > > > Reply-< <mailto: %40> >

> > > > > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:58:06 -0000

> > > > > < <mailto: %40> >

> > > > > Subject: [ ] Re: Palm oil lowers blood fats

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, even vegetables contain some fat, but very small

> amounts--

> > far

> > > > > less than most whole foods. But your examples of sunflower

> oil,

> > > > > peanut oil, and soybean oil are from sunflower seeds,

> peanuts,

> > and

> > > > > soybeans. (Those foods are not vegetables.)

> > > > >

> > > > > I would like to ask how nonhydrogentated coconut oil and

palm

> > kernal

> > > > > oil compare quantitatively with respect to both palm oil

and

> > olive

> > > > > oil (in terms of their effect on blood cholesterol/lipid

> > profile).

> > > > > Are there any quantitative data of which you are aware?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > -Dave

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>