Re: Yoga helps us keep fit

[Guest guest]

Rodney,

Yes, the known effects of CRON are earth-shaking (and am I a happy

camper for that!) but as earth-shaking as it is it's interesting you

do some exercise not relying exclusively on CRON to satisfy all your

body's mechanical needs.

Many different kinds of arthritis exist.. rheumatic, osteo etc. A few

years back an new medical term was coined, " osteoarthOSIS " , to include

a form of degeneration that didn't seem to have the inflammatory

component of an " arthrITIS. ('itis " implies inflammation). You seem to

want to lump them altogether, well maybe they all do have an

inflammatory component in common related to CRP, but from what I

gather from looking over your search terms, the relationship of

inflammatory markers (CRP is only ONE, there are others) to the joint

remain hypothetical. And the pathways are ill-defined or unknown at

present. I think we should be careful not to make sweeping

generalizations of the effects of CRON on specific medical

conditions, as many of the " new-age' groups do, without definitive

evidence. Yes, I think there is a connection too but I don't know it's

nature or extent.

What I am referring to with stretching is more related to maintaining

the proper muscle and connective tissue lengths around our joints.

Restrict or immobilize these joints will result in a shortening of

muscle length and increased cross-linking. Well known phenomenon, and

will occur even in CRON because the signal are mechanical in nature.

(I urge you to do a pubmed search)

My contention is that activities of daily living do not place most

joints, esp those of the spinal column, through a full range of

movement. As a result movement becomes progressively more rigid and

painstaking. The end result of a lack of sufficient movement at a

joint also has been hypothesized as a possible mechanism for

degeneration, sufficient in itself.

Mechanical signals to tissue are important too as are the biochemical

pathways. You don't rely on CRON pathways exclusively for bone health

and mass do you? In fact,indications are that some aspects of CRON may

be detrimental to bone mechanical properties which you offset with

exercise, which is simply " mechanical stress/strain/signal " . Why rely

on CRON exclusively for the connective tissue health? Perhaps one

potentates the other? CRON delays aging in tissue and gentle

stretching/yoga/exercise provides the necessary mechanical needs.

>

> > Rodney I'm not making any earth-shaking claim here.

>

> XXXXX OK. Of course the claims that are made about the benefits of

> CRON on health and lifespan, frankly ARE earth-shaking to anyone the

> first time they hear them. XXXXX

>

> > I want to maintain

> > a certain " athleticism " into advancing age. For example, with regard

> > to my stretching, I wish to maintain a youthful gait. To be able to

> > continue to bend over to place the palm of my hands flat on the

> floor.

> > Reaching above my head i want full shoulder extension, not a 40

> > degrees less that I invariably see in most seniors. I want to be

> able

> > to bend and twist at the waist with ease, not move like there is a

> > rigid pole up my spine as most seniors do. Apparently, the

> mechanical

> > aspects of life are much less significant to you. You don't seem to

> > care how you move from place to place just that you stay alive to

> > get there

> >

> > You seem to think CRON is enough?

>

> XXXXX Not quite accurate. Please note that I said I support the

> suggestions regarding exercise that are in the files here. XXXXX

>

> > You made some vague reference to CRP

> > and mechanical joint health. You ask for definitive evidence ...

>

> XXXXX LOL. I see you are prone to exaggeration! I did not ask

> for " definitive evidence " as you claim, what I actually asked was

> (cut and pasted): " Are there studies that seem to suggest such

> benefits? " I notice also that you didn't provide any, even in

> response to that very mild request : ^ ))) XXXXX

>

> > ...... of the benefits of exercise (stretching, yoga) on the

> > mechanical function of joints, which it directly accesses, but on

> > the other hand you are so willing to accept the effects of CRON

> > pathways on the joint which are much more vague and ill-defined.

> > Would you post the study(s) demonstrating the effect of CRON on

> > preservation of mechanical joint function into aging? I'd like to

> > read them.

>

> XXXXX Yes, my reference to this was vague, because for anyone who

> has been reading here the past couple of years I would have expected

> this to be common knowledge, so that supplying the references would

> hardly be necessary. XXXXX

>

> XXXXX But since you ask, here is the argument I was referring to

> which has been discussed here in the past: arthritis is very closely

> associated with inflammation; the most well known biomarker used for

> assessing inflammation is c-reactive protein (CRP); CRP in those on

> CRON has been shown to be 81.2%, yes 81.2%, less than in fully fed

> controls. XXXXX

>

> XXXXX As regards the first part of the argument, if you search

> PubMed using the terms " arthritis inflammation " you will find 12,769

> references. As regards the second part of the argument, searching

> using " CRP inflammation " you will find another 4,168. Of those, 339

> are found in response to a search specific for " CRP inflammation

> arthritis " . XXXXX

>

> XXXXX For the third part please consult what is known around here as

> the WUSTL study, PMID 15096581, you will find it is referenced in the

> files. It is where I got the 81.2% number. The WUSTL study also

> measured fasting insulin, another marker for inflammation. It was

> reduced by 72.5% in CRON subjects compared with fully fed controls.

> You might wish to search PubMed using the terms " insulin marker

> inflammation " . When I did it gave me 598 references relating to that

> part of the argument. XXXXX

>

> XXXXX You might also want to take a look at PMID: 17684461 regarding

> CRP and inflammation. XXXXX

>

> XXXXX You will also note that another paper, which has just been

> published, and which I posted yesterday, found that: " These

> [benefits of CRON] include a very low level of inflammation as

> evidenced by low circulating levels of c-reactive protein and TNF-

> alpha, serum triiodothyronine levels at the low end of the normal

> range, and ........ " . TNF-alpha is of course another major marker

> for inflammation, which IIRC was not measured in the original WUSTL

> study. XXXXX

>

> XXXXX Now I know you prefer to read the full texts rather than

> abstracts, as you have previously indicated, so I look forward to

> hearing from you again when you have finished reading the full texts

> of all the papers to be found above, and can tell us what more you

> have found out about the likely effects of CRON on risk of arthritis

> and other joint problems ;; ^ ))) XXXXX

>

> > At 90, I want the movement of a dancer many years younger. I want

> > their flexibility, their balance, their strength of posture. How my

> > body moves through space is important to me. To manipulate my body

> > thru space with ease, I don't want the stiff movement dynamics of a

> > " zombie " . (For want of a better word LOL ) ................

>

> See yer in a couple of years : ^ )))

>

> Rodney.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

This recent discussion has raised for me the question as to whether I

should be doing some yoga. I have previously not considered it

for 'preventive maintenance'. So that is a new insight for me.

I do not have a good enough grasp of the subject to be able to make

what is an obviously (to me) good decision. But several of the posts

have focussed, for me at least, more clearly what the issues are.

The more discussion we have the better, imo, as regards what is

involved, especially in terms of time, and what are the benefits?

Perhaps it may be a good idea to have some additional athletic

objectives, beyond simply playing a round of golf on one's 100th

birthday, etc.. (Of course I need to get there first!).

Rodney.

> From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

> Reply-< >

> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:35:45 -0000

> < >

> Subject: [ ] Re: Yoga helps us keep fit

>

> Rod: nobody is suggesting that you take up yoga. To each his own,

or hedge

> your bets as you so often say.

>

> I know that you meditate. And we have often discussed that too on

this

> list.

>

> For those of us who choose to do yoga (for either physical, mental

or other

> benefits), the topic is of interest. (Just as we so often discuss

other

> types of exercise).

>

> CRON does not offer any mental health benefits. To the contrary,

the more

> extreme practitioners are often described as short tempered and

irritable.

> And CRON does nothing for those who have a tendency towards

depression. Who

> wants to go through life that way? For some at least, yoga seems

to

> ameliorate that problem.

>

>

>

> Hi Lela, or Bill, or anyone:

>

> Is there an argument here for using yoga as preventive medicine,

> including for people who are not aware of having any issues that the

> physical aspects of yoga might benefit? Are there studies that seem

> to suggest such benefits?

>

> There are only so many hours in a day. By the standards of the

> overwhleming majority of the population I already devote a grossly

> excessive amount of time to health matters. So I am reluctant to

> increase this by spending more time on something the benefits of

> which I am quite uncertain about.

>

[Guest guest]

For me the most immediate and simple advantage that comes from regular,

modest hatha yoga practice is retained spinal flexibility. To get dizzy

when you turn your next to look out of the rear window when backing up is

not a useful thing, and the spinal twists in particular that are

integrated into most yoga routines address that kind of inflexibility

well. Similarly with touching-the-floor type

stiffness/flexibility.

Maco

At 09:21 AM 8/14/2007, you wrote:

Hi Francesca:

This recent discussion has raised for me the question as to whether I

should be doing some yoga. I have previously not considered it

for 'preventive maintenance'. So that is a new insight for me.

I do not have a good enough grasp of the subject to be able to make

what is an obviously (to me) good decision. But several of the posts

have focussed, for me at least, more clearly what the issues

are.

The more discussion we have the better, imo, as regards what is

involved, especially in terms of time, and what are the

benefits?

Perhaps it may be a good idea to have some additional athletic

objectives, beyond simply playing a round of golf on one's 100th

birthday, etc.. (Of course I need to get there first!).

Rodney.

> From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

> Reply-To:

<

>

> Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:35:45 -0000

> To:

<

>

> Subject: [ ] Re: Yoga helps us keep fit

>

> Rod: nobody is suggesting that you take up yoga. To each his own,

or hedge

> your bets as you so often say.

>

> I know that you meditate. And we have often discussed that too on

this

> list.

>

> For those of us who choose to do yoga (for either physical, mental

or other

> benefits), the topic is of interest. (Just as we so often discuss

other

> types of exercise).

>

> CRON does not offer any mental health benefits. To the contrary,

the more

> extreme practitioners are often described as short tempered and

irritable.

> And CRON does nothing for those who have a tendency towards

depression. Who

> wants to go through life that way? For some at least, yoga seems

to

> ameliorate that problem.

>

>

>

> Hi Lela, or Bill, or anyone:

>

> Is there an argument here for using yoga as preventive

medicine,

> including for people who are not aware of having any issues that

the

> physical aspects of yoga might benefit? Are there studies that

seem

> to suggest such benefits?

>

> There are only so many hours in a day. By the standards of the

> overwhleming majority of the population I already devote a

grossly

> excessive amount of time to health matters. So I am reluctant

to

> increase this by spending more time on something the benefits

of

> which I am quite uncertain about.

>

[Guest guest]

Maco wrote:

"Except for people who buy in to the entire yogic belief system, there is no real need to expend a vast amount of time practicing yoga, and the benefit/time-cost in terms of maintaining mobility and flexibility probably maxes out, in this one mouse's experience, at well under 15 minutes per day.Having practiced the full gamut of yoga practices across more than 35 years, a straightforward routine of less than thirty seconds per posture through the surya namaskar series, some sitting spinal twists, sholder stand for x seconds, fish pose for 1/2-x seconds, and then lying-down spinal twists with a final set of deep-breathing repetitions seems sufficient to get 95% of the benefits of yoga practice, which are considerable, in terms of reduced tension in the body and the metrics that the yoga enthusiast posted (hands on floor, full upward stretching, etc.).So the time cost doesn't need to be much for the physical benefits of yoga practice".

Maco: For a long time I´ve been thinking of starting yoga, to supplement my other exercises (more aiming at strength-training) and meditation, for a similar kind of flexibility that you are aiming at. Only time has prevented me from doing the research to find the optimal yoga for over-all mobility that I can do regularly at home with minimum time. When I see what you write I grap the opportunity since the time may not come to do the research myself: Might you have any on-line program to direct me to, or could you expand on what you write above on surya namaskar, sitting spinal twists etc? I am male, 60 years old, on CR, and with no known health problems, if that has any importance. // Ulf

[Guest guest]

--- In , " Rodney " <perspect1111@...>

wrote:

>

> Hi Francesca:

>

> This recent discussion has raised for me the question as to whether

I

> should be doing some yoga. I have previously not considered it

> for 'preventive maintenance'. So that is a new insight for me.

>

> I do not have a good enough grasp of the subject to be able to make

> what is an obviously (to me) good decision. But several of the

posts

> have focussed, for me at least, more clearly what the issues are.

>

> The more discussion we have the better, imo, as regards what is

> involved, especially in terms of time, and what are the benefits?

What I find really interesting is when I used to practice yoga

seriously in college, I was spending two hours a day on it. Yet,

this time period in my university studies was my most stress free and

productive. The latter of these two benefits, of course, being the

more " surprising. " I actually felt like I had *more* time, due in

part, I'm sure, to improved concentration and relaxation. My Mom

used to do yoga with my sister and I as kids too. A great family

activity. We used the book Yoga For Americans:

http://www.zenpawn.com/amazon/?item=B000JV7YLI

by Indra Devi ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra_Devi ),

a classic of the sixties. Later, Mom handed it down to me, so aside

from a once-a-week class, I was using that book on my own. Whenever

I start things back up on occasion, this well-worn book is once again

the one to which I turn.

-

p.s. - I can still bend forward and put my palms flat on the floor.

> Perhaps it may be a good idea to have some additional athletic

> objectives, beyond simply playing a round of golf on one's 100th

> birthday, etc.. (Of course I need to get there first!).

>

> Rodney.