Guest guest Posted June 23, 2007 Report Share Posted June 23, 2007 Great study, Jeff, thanks. One has to wonder if the RAW PLANT FOOD diet isn't best.. why cook ANYTHING.. other than the little meat one might eat? Or legumes to make them safer to eat. Most plants should be eaten raw, and the majority of the diet should comprise RAW plants, don't you agree? Predominately raw veggies, raw fruit. Cook a little meat and fish, and cook legumes to reduce lectins. Isn't this the best nutritional science has to offer at present? Bioavailability one might argue, but this really isn't an issue if you eat enough plants. And ANY cooking increases AGE byproducts. So, cook meat to make it safe, cook lugumes to make them safe (and any other's that i may have missed) BUT generally eat your plants raw and in abundance. Are we agreed? bill4cr > > The only difference in the two meals was the cooking > type and temperatue. Everything else was the same. > I have included the description of the 2 meals below. > > Jeff > > > American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 85, No. > 5, 1236-1243, May 2007 > > > Effects of low- and high-advanced glycation endproduct > meals on macro- and microvascular endothelial function > and oxidative stress in patients with type 2 diabetes > mellitus1,2,3 > > Negrean, Alin Stirban, Bernd Stratmann, > Gawlowski, Tina Horstmann, Christian Götting, Knut > Kleesiek, a Mueller-Roesel, Theodor Koschinsky, > Uribarri, Helen Vlassara and Diethelm Tschoepe > 1 From the Diabetes Clinic, Heart and Diabetes Centre > NRW Bad Oeynhausen (MN, AS, BS, TG, TH, MM-R, and DT), > and Institute for Laboratory and Transfusion Medicine > (CG and KK), Ruhr University Bochum, Germany; > Heinrich-Heine University Duesseldorf, Germany (TK); > and the Division of Diabetes and Aging, Mount Sinai > School of Medicine, New York, NY (JU and HV) > > > Background: An advanced glycation endproducts > (AGEs)–rich diet induces significant increases in > inflammatory and endothelial dysfunction markers in > type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM). > > Objective: The aim was to investigate the acute > effects of dietary AGEs on vascular function in T2DM > patients. > > Design: Twenty inpatients with T2DM [ (±SEM) age: 55.4 > ± 2.2 y; glycated hemoglobin: 8.8 ± 0.5%] were > investigated. In a randomized crossover design, the > effects of a low-AGE (LAGE) and high-AGE (HAGE) meal > on macrovascular [by flow-mediated dilatation (FMD)] > and microvascular (by Laser-Doppler flowmetry) > function, serum markers of endothelial dysfunction > (E-selectin, intracellular adhesion molecule 1, and > vascular cell adhesion molecule 1), oxidative stress, > and serum AGE were assessed. The meals had identical > ingredients but different AGE amounts (15.100 compared > with 2.750 kU AGE for the HAGE and LAGE meals, > respectively), which were obtained by varying the > cooking temperature and time. The measurements were > performed at baseline and 2, 4, and 6 h after each > meal. > > Results: After the HAGE meal, FMD decreased by 36.2%, > from 5.77 ± 0.65% (baseline) to 3.93 ± 0.48 (2 h), > 3.70 ± 0.42 (4 h), and 4.42 ± 0.54% (6 h) (P < 0.01 > for all compared with baseline). After the LAGE meal, > FMD decreased by 20.9%, from 6.04 ± 0.68% (baseline) > to 4.75 ± 0.48% (2 h), 4.69 ± 0.51% (4 h), and 5.62 ± > 0.63% (6 h), respectively (P < 0.01 for all compared > with baseline; P < 0.001 for all compared with the > HAGE meal). This impairment of macrovascular function > after the HAGE meal was paralleled by an impairment of > microvascular function (–67.2%) and increased > concentrations of serum AGE and markers of endothelial > dysfunction and oxidative stress. > > Conclusions: In patients with T2DM, a HAGE meal > induces a more pronounced acute impairment of vascular > function than does an otherwise identical LAGE meal. > Therefore, chemical modifications of food by means of > cooking play a major role in influencing the extent of > postprandial vascular dysfunction. > > From the study..... > > > HAGE and LAGE meals > The 2 meals were isocaloric, had identical > ingredients, and > differed only by the temperature and time of cooking. > Each meal > consisted of 200 g chicken breast, 250 g potatoes, 100 > g carrots, > 200 g tomatoes, and 15 g vegetable oil and provided > 580 kcal, > 54 g protein, 17 g fat, 48 g carbohydrates, 60 mg > cholesterol, and > 10 g fibers. The HAGE meal (15.100 kU AGE) was > prepared by > frying or broiling at 230 °C for 20 min, whereas the > LAGE meal > (2750 kU AGE) was prepared by steaming or boiling at > 100 °C > for 10 min. The subjects were instructed to eat the > test meal > within 30 min. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Hi Bill: Well for me there is an issue with safety/hygiene for all foods, both plant and animal. My understanding is that cooking a food to water simmer temperature for a few seconds will kill all pathogens except mad cow disease. (and except stuff like, say, hamburger where the problem may be in the middle, not on the surface, and so need much longer at 100°C for sterilization). If yer hope to live to 100 it may be worth remembering that food pathogens - salmonella, E-coli and so on - are famous for killing off elderly people. So while I don't quite yet classify myself in that category I think it advisable to cook just about everything (including romaine, in soup) except fruit, which I usually rinse pretty thoroughly. If someone posted studies done in mammals showing that those fed raw foods live longer than those eating the identical foods lightly cooked, I would certainly pay attention. But until then I cook most of the stuff I eat. Rodney. > > Great study, Jeff, thanks. One has to wonder if the RAW PLANT FOOD > diet isn't best.. why cook ANYTHING.. other than the little meat one > might eat? Or legumes to make them safer to eat. Most plants should be > eaten raw, and the majority of the diet should comprise RAW plants, > don't you agree? Predominately raw veggies, raw fruit. Cook a little > meat and fish, and cook legumes to reduce lectins. Isn't this the best > nutritional science has to offer at present? > > Bioavailability one might argue, but this really isn't an issue if you > eat enough plants. And ANY cooking increases AGE byproducts. So, cook > meat to make it safe, cook lugumes to make them safe (and any other's > that i may have missed) BUT generally eat your plants raw and in > abundance. Are we agreed? > > bill4cr > > > --- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@> wrote: > > > > The only difference in the two meals was the cooking > > type and temperatue. Everything else was the same. > > I have included the description of the 2 meals below. > > > > Jeff > > > > > > American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 85, No. > > 5, 1236-1243, May 2007 > > > > > > Effects of low- and high-advanced glycation endproduct > > meals on macro- and microvascular endothelial function > > and oxidative stress in patients with type 2 diabetes > > mellitus1,2,3 > > > > Negrean, Alin Stirban, Bernd Stratmann, > > Gawlowski, Tina Horstmann, Christian Götting, Knut > > Kleesiek, a Mueller-Roesel, Theodor Koschinsky, > > Uribarri, Helen Vlassara and Diethelm Tschoepe > > 1 From the Diabetes Clinic, Heart and Diabetes Centre > > NRW Bad Oeynhausen (MN, AS, BS, TG, TH, MM-R, and DT), > > and Institute for Laboratory and Transfusion Medicine > > (CG and KK), Ruhr University Bochum, Germany; > > Heinrich-Heine University Duesseldorf, Germany (TK); > > and the Division of Diabetes and Aging, Mount Sinai > > School of Medicine, New York, NY (JU and HV) > > > > > > Background: An advanced glycation endproducts > > (AGEs)–rich diet induces significant increases in > > inflammatory and endothelial dysfunction markers in > > type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM). > > > > Objective: The aim was to investigate the acute > > effects of dietary AGEs on vascular function in T2DM > > patients. > > > > Design: Twenty inpatients with T2DM [ (±SEM) age: 55.4 > > ± 2.2 y; glycated hemoglobin: 8.8 ± 0.5%] were > > investigated. In a randomized crossover design, the > > effects of a low-AGE (LAGE) and high-AGE (HAGE) meal > > on macrovascular [by flow-mediated dilatation (FMD)] > > and microvascular (by Laser-Doppler flowmetry) > > function, serum markers of endothelial dysfunction > > (E-selectin, intracellular adhesion molecule 1, and > > vascular cell adhesion molecule 1), oxidative stress, > > and serum AGE were assessed. The meals had identical > > ingredients but different AGE amounts (15.100 compared > > with 2.750 kU AGE for the HAGE and LAGE meals, > > respectively), which were obtained by varying the > > cooking temperature and time. The measurements were > > performed at baseline and 2, 4, and 6 h after each > > meal. > > > > Results: After the HAGE meal, FMD decreased by 36.2%, > > from 5.77 ± 0.65% (baseline) to 3.93 ± 0.48 (2 h), > > 3.70 ± 0.42 (4 h), and 4.42 ± 0.54% (6 h) (P < 0.01 > > for all compared with baseline). After the LAGE meal, > > FMD decreased by 20.9%, from 6.04 ± 0.68% (baseline) > > to 4.75 ± 0.48% (2 h), 4.69 ± 0.51% (4 h), and 5.62 ± > > 0.63% (6 h), respectively (P < 0.01 for all compared > > with baseline; P < 0.001 for all compared with the > > HAGE meal). This impairment of macrovascular function > > after the HAGE meal was paralleled by an impairment of > > microvascular function (–67.2%) and increased > > concentrations of serum AGE and markers of endothelial > > dysfunction and oxidative stress. > > > > Conclusions: In patients with T2DM, a HAGE meal > > induces a more pronounced acute impairment of vascular > > function than does an otherwise identical LAGE meal. > > Therefore, chemical modifications of food by means of > > cooking play a major role in influencing the extent of > > postprandial vascular dysfunction. > > > > From the study..... > > > > > > HAGE and LAGE meals > > The 2 meals were isocaloric, had identical > > ingredients, and > > differed only by the temperature and time of cooking. > > Each meal > > consisted of 200 g chicken breast, 250 g potatoes, 100 > > g carrots, > > 200 g tomatoes, and 15 g vegetable oil and provided > > 580 kcal, > > 54 g protein, 17 g fat, 48 g carbohydrates, 60 mg > > cholesterol, and > > 10 g fibers. The HAGE meal (15.100 kU AGE) was > > prepared by > > frying or broiling at 230 °C for 20 min, whereas the > > LAGE meal > > (2750 kU AGE) was prepared by steaming or boiling at > > 100 °C > > for 10 min. The subjects were instructed to eat the > > test meal > > within 30 min. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2007 Report Share Posted June 24, 2007 Hi Rodney and All, The free full-text paper: Key TJ, Thorogood M, Appleby PN, Burr ML. Dietary habits and mortality in 11,000 vegetarians and health conscious people: results of a 17 year follow up.BMJ. 1996 Sep 28;313(7060):775-9. PMID: 8842068 http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/313/7060/775 Table 3 suggests that raw fruit significantly reduces all-cause death, and raw salads probably would also, if they were they eaten as frequently (Table 1). Notice that the wholemeal bread was the other food significantly predicting survival (Table 3). Legumes were not considered. Rodney <perspect1111@...> wrote: Hi Bill: Well for me there is an issue with safety/hygiene for all foods, both plant and animal. My understanding is that cooking a food to water simmer temperature for a few seconds will kill all pathogens except mad cow disease. (and except stuff like, say, hamburger where the problem may be in the middle, not on the surface, and so need much longer at 100°C for sterilization). If yer hope to live to 100 it may be worth remembering that food pathogens - salmonella, E-coli and so on - are famous for killing off elderly people. So while I don't quite yet classify myself in that category I think it advisable to cook just about everything (including romaine, in soup) except fruit, which I usually rinse pretty thoroughly. If someone posted studies done in mammals showing that those fed raw foods live longer than those eating the identical foods lightly cooked, I would certainly pay attention. But until then I cook most of the stuff I eat. Rodney. > >> > The only difference in the two meals was the cooking> > type and temperatue. Everything else was the same. > > I have included the description of the 2 meals below.> > > > Jeff> > > > > > American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 85, No.> > 5, 1236-1243, May 2007> > > > > > Effects of low- and high-advanced glycation endproduct> > meals on macro- and microvascular endothelial function> > and oxidative stress in patients with type 2 diabetes> > mellitus1,2,3> > > > Negrean, Alin Stirban, Bernd Stratmann, > > Gawlowski, Tina Horstmann, Christian Götting, Knut> > Kleesiek, a Mueller-Roesel, Theodor Koschinsky,> > Uribarri, Helen Vlassara and Diethelm Tschoepe> > 1 From the Diabetes Clinic, Heart and Diabetes Centre> > NRW Bad Oeynhausen (MN, AS, BS, TG, TH, MM-R, and DT),> > and Institute for Laboratory and Transfusion Medicine> > (CG and KK), Ruhr University Bochum, Germany;> > Heinrich-Heine University Duesseldorf, Germany (TK);> > and the Division of Diabetes and Aging, Mount Sinai> > School of Medicine, New York, NY (JU and HV)> > > > > > Background: An advanced glycation endproducts> > (AGEs)–rich diet induces significant increases in> > inflammatory and endothelial dysfunction markers in> > type 2 diabetes mellitus (T2DM).> > > > Objective: The aim was to investigate the acute> > effects of dietary AGEs on vascular function in T2DM> > patients.> > > > Design: Twenty inpatients with T2DM [ (±SEM) age: 55.4> > ± 2.2 y; glycated hemoglobin: 8.8 ± 0.5%] were> > investigated. In a randomized crossover design, the> > effects of a low-AGE (LAGE) and high-AGE (HAGE) meal> > on macrovascular [by flow-mediated dilatation (FMD)]> > and microvascular (by Laser-Doppler flowmetry)> > function, serum markers of endothelial dysfunction> > (E-selectin, intracellular adhesion molecule 1, and> > vascular cell adhesion molecule 1), oxidative stress,> > and serum AGE were assessed. The meals had identical> > ingredients but different AGE amounts (15.100 compared> > with 2.750 kU AGE for the HAGE and LAGE meals,> > respectively), which were obtained by varying the> > cooking temperature and time. The measurements were> > performed at baseline and 2, 4, and 6 h after each> > meal.> > > > Results: After the HAGE meal, FMD decreased by 36.2%,> > from 5.77 ± 0.65% (baseline) to 3.93 ± 0.48 (2 h),> > 3.70 ± 0.42 (4 h), and 4.42 ± 0.54% (6 h) (P < 0.01> > for all compared with baseline). After the LAGE meal,> > FMD decreased by 20.9%, from 6.04 ± 0.68% (baseline)> > to 4.75 ± 0.48% (2 h), 4.69 ± 0.51% (4 h), and 5.62 ±> > 0.63% (6 h), respectively (P < 0.01 for all compared> > with baseline; P < 0.001 for all compared with the> > HAGE meal). This impairment of macrovascular function> > after the HAGE meal was paralleled by an impairment of> > microvascular function (–67.2%) and increased> > concentrations of serum AGE and markers of endothelial> > dysfunction and oxidative stress.> > > > Conclusions: In patients with T2DM, a HAGE meal> > induces a more pronounced acute impairment of vascular> > function than does an otherwise identical LAGE meal.> > Therefore, chemical modifications of food by means of> > cooking play a major role in influencing the extent of> > postprandial vascular dysfunction.> > > > From the study.....> > > > > > HAGE and LAGE meals > > The 2 meals were isocaloric, had identical> > ingredients, and > > differed only by the temperature and time of cooking.> > Each meal > > consisted of 200 g chicken breast, 250 g potatoes, 100> > g carrots, > > 200 g tomatoes, and 15 g vegetable oil and provided> > 580 kcal, > > 54 g protein, 17 g fat, 48 g carbohydrates, 60 mg> > cholesterol, and > > 10 g fibers. The HAGE meal (15.100 kU AGE) was> > prepared by > > frying or broiling at 230 °C for 20 min, whereas the> > LAGE meal > > (2750 kU AGE) was prepared by steaming or boiling at> > 100 °C > > for 10 min. The subjects were instructed to eat the> > test meal > > within 30 min. Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with FareChase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Hi Al: Many thanks for posting the link to this paper. I think it may have been posted here previously, but it seems to have important information that I, at least, need to be reminded about. It seems to me the tables are not well formatted for reading on a computer screen. So here is my brief summary of what it seems to me are the key points of the paper. Please add to or correct this if anyone thinks I have missed something important: A. All the subjects were 'health conscious' people, recruited from health food stores, vegetarian groups and health magazines. B. The group as a whole was much healthier and had much lower mortality than the general population. C. Smoking is harmful to health (!) D. Those in this health-conscious group who described themselves as vegetarians were no healthier than the non-vegetarians. E. By far the greatest beneficial food behaviour in this group was eating fresh fruit daily. F. For most of the other foods which had been expected to be healthy, while usually having some benefit, either the benefit was rather small or not statistically significant. In the case of eating raw salad daily, for example, while there was a statistically insignificant reduction in overall mortality - after adjustment for age, sex and smoking - it appeared to raise (also statistically insignificant) the odds of stroke and breast cancer. [My personal bias is that, with this or any other study, the benefits of CRON for protection against CVD are so large there is probably not much more to be gained in that regard from additional efforts beyond CRON. Better perhaps to concentrate on behaviours expected to provide protection against other causes of morbidity and mortality?] As noted, corrections welcome. Rodney. > Hi Bill: > Well for me there is an issue with safety/hygiene for all foods, both > plant and animal. > My understanding is that cooking a food to water simmer temperature > for a few seconds will kill all pathogens except mad cow disease. > (and except stuff like, say, hamburger where the problem may be in > the middle, not on the surface, and so need much longer at 100°C for > sterilization). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2007 Report Share Posted June 28, 2007 All My diet is primarily raw food vegetarian. I'm aware of the unhealthiness of the high fat content in most raw foodist diets. I rarely eat at a raw food vegetarian restaurant, and in any case there are very few of them. I prefer preparing my own meals. I have never met any raw foodist who said they eat 100% raw foods, not even those who work at raw food restaurants. An aim in raw foodism is about not adding excessive heat to food, as for example to vegetable soups. I haven't bought Dr. Graham's book, yet , but isn't the topic primarily fruitarian? Cheers, Arturo Cooking, AGEs and FMD Posted by: " " truepatriot@... cronzen Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:03 am (PST) In that case, we are in 100% agreement. According to Dr. Graham, author of The 80/10/10 Diet ( http://snipurl.com/1mbfx ), the standard raw food diet is often worse than the SAD in terms of fat levels. When I first started investigating raw foodism, I had come to the same conclusion and decided it was not for me. Revisiting it more recently, via this and other books, it dawned on me that such was not a requirement of the diet itself (which seems exceedingly obvious in hindsight!). - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2007 Report Share Posted June 29, 2007 He prefers to call it frugarian. It predominantly consists of fruits, including cucumbers and tomatoes, with the addition of " tender " greens. As you can imagine, nuts/seeds are very limited to keep under his 10% fat, as are avocados. And you won't find grains or even root vegetables in his plan. - > > All > My diet is primarily raw food vegetarian. > I'm aware of the unhealthiness of the > high fat content in most raw foodist diets. > I rarely eat at a raw food vegetarian > restaurant, and in any case there are > very few of them. I prefer preparing > my own meals. I have never met any raw > foodist who said they eat 100% raw foods, > not even those who work at raw food > restaurants. An aim in raw foodism > is about not adding excessive heat > to food, as for example to vegetable > soups. I haven't bought Dr. Graham's > book, yet , but isn't the topic > primarily fruitarian? > Cheers, > Arturo > > Cooking, AGEs and FMD > Posted by: " " truepatriot@... cronzen > Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:03 am (PST) > In that case, we are in 100% agreement. > > According to Dr. Graham, author of > The 80/10/10 Diet ( http://snipurl.com/1mbfx ), > the standard raw food diet is often worse than > the SAD in terms of fat levels. > > When I first started investigating raw foodism, > I had come to the same conclusion and decided > it was not for me. Revisiting it more recently, > via this and other books, it dawned on me that > such was not a requirement of the diet itself > (which seems exceedingly obvious in hindsight!). > > - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2007 Report Share Posted June 29, 2007 Hi folks: Of course, as always, the question we need to see an answer to is: " what is the evidence of benefit? " So is there a history of published papers reporting on experiments in mammals with health concerns similar to ours showing better health, or longer average or maximum lifespans for the recommended regimen? For most apparently 'faddish' diets, the answer is there are no studies at all! But I will not argue with the proposition that there are appreciable health benefits to be had from the consumption of the more nutrient-dense fruits. And with 10% total protein it does seem likely he is not overdosing on methionine! Rodney. > > > > All > > My diet is primarily raw food vegetarian. > > I'm aware of the unhealthiness of the > > high fat content in most raw foodist diets. > > I rarely eat at a raw food vegetarian > > restaurant, and in any case there are > > very few of them. I prefer preparing > > my own meals. I have never met any raw > > foodist who said they eat 100% raw foods, > > not even those who work at raw food > > restaurants. An aim in raw foodism > > is about not adding excessive heat > > to food, as for example to vegetable > > soups. I haven't bought Dr. Graham's > > book, yet , but isn't the topic > > primarily fruitarian? > > Cheers, > > Arturo > > > > Cooking, AGEs and FMD > > Posted by: " " truepatriot@ cronzen > > Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:03 am (PST) > > In that case, we are in 100% agreement. > > > > According to Dr. Graham, author of > > The 80/10/10 Diet ( http://snipurl.com/1mbfx ), > > the standard raw food diet is often worse than > > the SAD in terms of fat levels. > > > > When I first started investigating raw foodism, > > I had come to the same conclusion and decided > > it was not for me. Revisiting it more recently, > > via this and other books, it dawned on me that > > such was not a requirement of the diet itself > > (which seems exceedingly obvious in hindsight!). > > > > - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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