Re: Re: Soluble versus Insoluble fiber calories

[Guest guest]

>Or does

> this study refer either to soluble or insoluble

> fiber specifically?

> It is not clear to me.

Its an NAS report, not a study. They listed 2

references, which were actual studies.

Here they are with a few more..

J Nutr. 1987 Feb;117(2):267-73. Links

Metabolizable energy in humans in two diets containing

different sources of dietary fiber. Calculations and

analysis.Goranzon H, Forsum E.

The metabolizable energy (ME) of two high fiber diets,

providing between 33 and 74 g dietary fiber (DF) per

day, was calculated by application of Atwater's

general factors (4, 9 and 4 kcal/g protein, fat and

carbohydrate, respectively), Merrill and Watt's

specific factors, and the British approach in which ME

from carbohydrates is calculated by multiplication of

the monosaccharide equivalent by 3.75 kcal/g. These

factors were applied to the intakes of fat, protein

and carbohydrate of 20 human subjects in two balance

experiments. ME estimated by Merrill and Watt's

factors agreed better with ME estimated in the balance

experiment than did ME calculated by Atwater's factors

or by the British approach. It was calculated that the

DF in diet A, derived mainly from cereals, contributed

2.5 +/- 1.4 kcal/g to ME of the diet. The

corresponding figure for DF in diet B, derived mainly

from beans, vegetables and fruits, was 3.1 +/- 1.2

kcal/g. It was concluded that Merrill & Watt's factors

represent the best system in current use for

calculation of ME in DF-rich diets.

PMID: 3031253

Am J Clin Nutr. 1990 Apr;51(4):617-37. Links

Energy values of unavailable carbohydrate and diets:

an inquiry and analysis.Livesey G.

AFRC Institute of Food Research, Norwich Laboratory,

UK.

To determine digestible-energy values (DEVs) for

unavailable carbohydrate (UC), an analysis was made of

published data on 29 human diets with UC from several

sources and intakes ranging from 4 to 93 g/d. A

distinction was made between apparent DEVs, derived

from UC intake and fecal loss, and partial DEVs,

derived from energy intake and fecal loss. By use of a

proposed calculation, partial DEVs ranged from -20 to

+10 kJ/g (-4.8 to +2.4 kcal/g) in different diets; all

values were below the corresponding apparent DEVs.

Factors explaining this range, including analytical

problems, are considered. Rather than finding

discrepancies, both the partial DEVs and the energy

available from the whole diet were found to be related

to the apparent digestibility of UC (r = 0.88), the

proportion of the diet estimated as UC (r = 0.73), and

both combined (r = 0.98). Several food-energy

evaluation systems are also assessed for accuracy and

the implications of these observations for food-energy

evaluation are discussed.

PMID: 2138862

Am J Clin Nutr. 1998 Oct;68(4):802-19. Links

Energy balance and thermogenesis in rats consuming

nonstarch polysaccharides of various

fermentabilities. T, Brown JC, Livesey G.

Institute of Food Research, Norwich Laboratory,

Colney, United Kingdom.

BACKGROUND: The equivalents of dietary protein, fat,

and available carbohydrate as fuels for maintenance

(kJ apparent metabolizable energy/kJ maintenance

requirement) are known from classical experiments and

are similar across species; that for nonstarch

polysaccharide (NSP) is undetermined. OBJECTIVES: Our

objectives were to determine the energy equivalent of

NSP and the thermic responses to NSP. DESIGN: In a

randomized block design, 120 rats were treated in

groups of 10 for 28 d with a basal diet (control)

supplemented with starch and 10 different NSP

treatments in amounts between 38 and 92 g/kg basal

diet. Cellulose and starch were references. Thermic

responses, deduced from body-composition changes and

modeling of energy disposition, and energy and

substrate excretion were determined. RESULTS: NSP had

fermentabilities between 0.01 and 0.93 g/g intake.

Fermentability, partial digestible energy, and net

metabolizable energy values of NSP were closely

related. Generally, 51% of apparent metabolizable

energy from NSP (fermentable gross energy) met

maintenance requirements. Diet (energy)-induced

thermogenesis (DIT) was evident from whole diets.

Fermentable NSP supplied net metabolizable energy and

caused DIT. After DIT and fermentation were accounted

for, NSP-induced thermogenesis was generally -2+/-4%

(x+/-SEM) of gross NSP energy, except for an outlying

pectic preparation, which was 33% (P< 0.1).

CONCLUSIONS: The energy equivalent of NSP was 196

(100/51) kJ/kJ, compared with 128, 105, and 100 for

protein, fat, and glucose, respectively, from the

classical experiments. With the exception of pectic

NSP, NSP does not induce thermogenesis in excess of

that associated with DIT and fermentation.

PMID: 9771857

Eur J Clin Nutr. 1991 Jan;45(1):1-12. Links

Calculating the energy values of foods: towards new

empirical formulae based on diets with varied intakes

of unavailable complex carbohydrates.Livesey G.

AFRC Institute of Food Research, Norwich Laboratory,

UK.

A statistical analysis has been made by generalised

linear regression of the relationship between the

availability of digestible energy (DE) and the intakes

of dietary gross energy (E) and of dietary 'fibre' or

unavailable complex carbohydrate (U), for published

observations on 43 human diets with varied intakes and

sources of U (2-93 g daily) and varied intakes of E

(7598-15104 kJ or 1816-3610 kcal daily). Simple

formulae were devised also for the availability of

metabolizable energy (ME) assuming urinary energy

losses of 30 kJ or 7 kcal/g nitrogen (N) intake. For

the calculation of DE and ME in mixed human diets with

accuracy greater than obtained with previously

published methods, the following linear formulae are

proposed and their limitations discussed: DE (kJ) =

0.96E(kJ)-9U(g) ME (kJ) = 0.96E(kJ)-9U(g)-30N(g) DE

(kcal) = 0.96E(kcal)-2U(g) ME (kcal) =

0.96E(kcal)-2U(g)-7N(g) The equations devised are used

to identify atypical observations on faecal energy

excretion, and their possible causes are considered.

In particular diets high in whole-grain cereal cause

faecal energy losses greater than predicted by these

equations which is possibly explained by more

carbohydrate reaching the colon than expected from

current compositional analytical methods.

PMID: 1649754

[Guest guest]

> I also meant to state that your numbers (below) for

> total fiber

> calories consumed appear to be on the low side for

> CRONies, at least

> for me. According to the Cron-o-meter, I'm

> consuming 65-70 grams of

> fiber per day on an 1800 calorie diet. Perhaps I

> consume far more

> vegetables than most, but were talking significant

> fiber calories

> here -- not something to ignore with respect to an

> accurate calorie

> count.

I was just using some averages, but your right, in

regard to total fiber, if we are talking a truly

healthy diet.

However, from my perspective, I dont see the relevance

to this in regard to weight.

The reason is, as some have discussed here, to

calculate CR by calories is extremely difficult

because there are lots of variables involved, beyond

the one you mention. Calorie values given for foods

in the common databases can have lots of variance in

them. Calorie values given for foods on nutrition

labels can have a 20% lee way up or down. So, this

doesnt negate the validity of attempting to count

calories, it just means we have to accept that we dont

have the greates tools to do it with.

Personally, I think using weight is a much better way

to determine adherence. I shoot for a BMI between

18.5 - 22 as being the healthiest. So, i adjust my

food, up or down, so i am there.

If I ate 75 grams of fiber everday, and if the studies

are correct, it could be an extra 150 calories. but,

if I was counting calories and I was (unknowingly) off

in my calculations by 150 calories, it would start

showing up on my scale pretty soon. I can then make

the appropriate adjustments.

By the numbers, that would be about a 10-15 lb weight

gain in a year. Something that would be much easier

for me to accurately know, than how many calories is

yielded by fiber as fermentation in the colon.

Anyway, if you do find better numbers, let us know.

Thanks

Regards

Jeff