Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Hi folks: It has only just now occurred to me (lol) that there may be an important question not answered by this paper. Does anyone know of research which did answer the following question, for any type of mammal (but with the calorie data, below, expressed in humans terms for convenience). Here is the question: If 100 sedentary human males on CRON eating 1800 calories were compared with 100 identical but exercising human males on CRON eating 1800 calories - with the latter group accordingly having a lower body weight because of their exercise - how would the average and maximal lifespans of the two groups compare? Rodney. >> Hi folks: A couple of weeks ago the question came up whether exercise> with CRON is better than CRON alone. We know exercise increases> average lifespan, as of course does CRON. We know that exercise does> not increase maximal lifespan (generally defined as the average lifespan> of the longest-lived 10% of the individuals studied) whereas CRON does.> It is hypothetically possible that exercise + CRON might further> rectangularize the survival curve, a bit better than that for CRON> alone. But it is also possible that the extra calories processed in> order to permit the exercise might actually shorten lifespan. The> following paper, Holloszy JO 1997, may be the most recent solid> information on the subject. The link below provides the full text. If> I understand it the gist is that in rats: ".... survival curves [of> wheel-running restricted rats] were virtually identical to those of> sedentary animals that were food restricted so as to keep their body> weights the same as those of the runners. " , and: "....... exercise> does not interfere with the extension of maximal life span by food> restriction, and the beneficial effects of food restriction and exercise> on survival are not additive or synergistic. " In other words, if> these results apply also to humans, exercise will have no effect either> positive or negative for lifespan when added on top of CRON. If anyone> has more up-to-date information, please post. > http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> <http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> Rodney.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Rodney, I think that your 1800-calorie experiment would be similar to what they found in the earlier study mentioned in the paper where " The food-restricted runners showed the same increase in maximal life span as food-restricted sedentary rats but had an increased mortality rate during the first one-half of their mortality curve. " However, the new experiment was NOT isocaloric. The calories of the sedentary controls were reduced to match the weights of the runners, i.e., " the food-restricted wheel-running rats in this study showed no increase in early mortality, and their survival curves were virtually identical to those of sedentary animals that were food restricted so as to keep their body weights the same as those of the runners. " To me, this means that after choosing a healthy BMI of say 22, you can eat the number of calories to maintain that BMI, and if you increase your exercise, the number of calories can be INCREASED in order to maintain that BMI. The extra calories required to offset the calories burned by exercise and maintain your BMI will NOT decrease your maximal life span. In other words, if you are a 65-year old, 5'8 " male weighing 150 pounds eating 1800 calories who is lightly active, your percent restriction is 7.5%CR. If you increased your activity and became moderately active, while still eating 1800 calories, your percent restriction would be 18%CR and you probably would lose weight. However, you could increase your diet by 230 calories (Total 2030 calories) to offset the calories burned by the extra activity and remain at an effective %CR of 7.5% while retaining your weight. In the final analysis, your percent of calorie restriction is the difference between the energy that you ingest and the energy that you spend on BMR plus physical activity. Tony Zamora Calorie Restriction Calculator: http://scientificpsychic.com/health/cron1.html > > > > Hi folks: A couple of weeks ago the question came up whether exercise > > with CRON is better than CRON alone. We know exercise increases > > average lifespan, as of course does CRON. We know that exercise does > > not increase maximal lifespan (generally defined as the average > lifespan > > of the longest-lived 10% of the individuals studied) whereas CRON > does. > > It is hypothetically possible that exercise + CRON might further > > rectangularize the survival curve, a bit better than that for CRON > > alone. But it is also possible that the extra calories processed in > > order to permit the exercise might actually shorten lifespan. The > > following paper, Holloszy JO 1997, may be the most recent solid > > information on the subject. The link below provides the full text. If > > I understand it the gist is that in rats: " .... survival curves [of > > wheel-running restricted rats] were virtually identical to those of > > sedentary animals that were food restricted so as to keep their body > > weights the same as those of the runners. " , and: " ....... exercise > > does not interfere with the extension of maximal life span by food > > restriction, and the beneficial effects of food restriction and > exercise > > on survival are not additive or synergistic. " In other words, if > > these results apply also to humans, exercise will have no effect > either > > positive or negative for lifespan when added on top of CRON. If anyone > > has more up-to-date information, please post. > > http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399 > > <http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> Rodney. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Tony: To be perfectly clear, are you stating that the additional exercise (with respect to the burning of calories) is equivalent to an additional restriction of calories for the sedentary individual, as supported by the study cited by Rodney? Since greater calorie restriction (up to some point) generally results in greater maximum lifespan you are stating that, given the same number of calories consumed, the exercising individual is likely to have a longer lifespan than the sedentary individual. Correct? -Dave > > > > > > Hi folks: A couple of weeks ago the question came up whether exercise > > > with CRON is better than CRON alone. We know exercise increases > > > average lifespan, as of course does CRON. We know that exercise does > > > not increase maximal lifespan (generally defined as the average > > lifespan > > > of the longest-lived 10% of the individuals studied) whereas CRON > > does. > > > It is hypothetically possible that exercise + CRON might further > > > rectangularize the survival curve, a bit better than that for CRON > > > alone. But it is also possible that the extra calories processed in > > > order to permit the exercise might actually shorten lifespan. The > > > following paper, Holloszy JO 1997, may be the most recent solid > > > information on the subject. The link below provides the full text. If > > > I understand it the gist is that in rats: " .... survival curves [of > > > wheel-running restricted rats] were virtually identical to those of > > > sedentary animals that were food restricted so as to keep their body > > > weights the same as those of the runners. " , and: " ....... exercise > > > does not interfere with the extension of maximal life span by food > > > restriction, and the beneficial effects of food restriction and > > exercise > > > on survival are not additive or synergistic. " In other words, if > > > these results apply also to humans, exercise will have no effect > > either > > > positive or negative for lifespan when added on top of CRON. If anyone > > > has more up-to-date information, please post. > > > http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399 > > > <http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> Rodney. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Hi folks: LOL. To refine my question slightly: I wish I could find a straight answer (accompanied by apparently unambiguous evidence) to the following straightforward question, or its equivalent for some other mammalian group: ********** If the survival curve of 100 sedentary human males eating 1800 calories daily was compared with that of their identical twins eating 1800 calories of the identical foods and walking three miles a day, how would the curves compare? ********** Surely the answer to this simple question must be out there somewhere using wording that is sufficiently unconvoluted that we can all comprehend it? : ^ ))) Rodney. > > > >> > > > Hi folks: A couple of weeks ago the question came up whether> exercise> > > > with CRON is better than CRON alone. We know exercise increases> > > > average lifespan, as of course does CRON. We know that exercise does> > > > not increase maximal lifespan (generally defined as the average> > > lifespan> > > > of the longest-lived 10% of the individuals studied) whereas CRON> > > does.> > > > It is hypothetically possible that exercise + CRON might further> > > > rectangularize the survival curve, a bit better than that for CRON> > > > alone. But it is also possible that the extra calories processed in> > > > order to permit the exercise might actually shorten lifespan. The> > > > following paper, Holloszy JO 1997, may be the most recent solid> > > > information on the subject. The link below provides the full> text. If> > > > I understand it the gist is that in rats: ".... survival curves [of> > > > wheel-running restricted rats] were virtually identical to those of> > > > sedentary animals that were food restricted so as to keep their body> > > > weights the same as those of the runners. " , and: "....... exercise> > > > does not interfere with the extension of maximal life span by food> > > > restriction, and the beneficial effects of food restriction and> > > exercise> > > > on survival are not additive or synergistic. " In other words, if> > > > these results apply also to humans, exercise will have no effect> > > either> > > > positive or negative for lifespan when added on top of CRON. If> anyone> > > > has more up-to-date information, please post.> > > > http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> > > > <http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> Rodney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Hi folks: Does this paper have relevance to this discussion? "Eat less, live longer? New insights into the role of caloric restriction in the brain." Levenson CW, Rich NJ. Florida State University, Program in Neuroscience, Department of Nutrition, Food and Exercise Sciences, 237 Biomedical Research Facility, Tallahassee, FL 32306-4340, USA. levenson@... "Caloric restriction has wide-ranging health benefits and may offer protection against age-related neuronal loss and neurodegenerative disorders such as Alzheimer's disease, possibly via enhanced adult neurogenesis. While a variety of interventions such as exercise increase neurogenesis, recent work suggests that exercise and caloric restriction may work to enhance neurogenesis by different neurobiological mechanisms, suggesting a role for both diet and exercise in disease prevention." PMID: 17958208 Rodney. > > > > >> > > > > Hi folks: A couple of weeks ago the question came up whether> > exercise> > > > > with CRON is better than CRON alone. We know exercise increases> > > > > average lifespan, as of course does CRON. We know that exercise> does> > > > > not increase maximal lifespan (generally defined as the average> > > > lifespan> > > > > of the longest-lived 10% of the individuals studied) whereas> CRON> > > > does.> > > > > It is hypothetically possible that exercise + CRON might further> > > > > rectangularize the survival curve, a bit better than that for> CRON> > > > > alone. But it is also possible that the extra calories processed> in> > > > > order to permit the exercise might actually shorten lifespan.> The> > > > > following paper, Holloszy JO 1997, may be the most recent solid> > > > > information on the subject. The link below provides the full> > text. If> > > > > I understand it the gist is that in rats: ".... survival curves> [of> > > > > wheel-running restricted rats] were virtually identical to those> of> > > > > sedentary animals that were food restricted so as to keep their> body> > > > > weights the same as those of the runners. " , and: ".......> exercise> > > > > does not interfere with the extension of maximal life span by> food> > > > > restriction, and the beneficial effects of food restriction and> > > > exercise> > > > > on survival are not additive or synergistic. " In other words,> if> > > > > these results apply also to humans, exercise will have no effect> > > > either> > > > > positive or negative for lifespan when added on top of CRON. If> > anyone> > > > > has more up-to-date information, please post.> > > > > http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> > > > > <http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> Rodney.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Hi Rodney. Given the common knowledge that greater calorie restriction (up to a point; see Walford and others) leads to greater maximum lifespan, I think that this question has already been answered by the aforementioned study that you posted. The group that ate more but burned off those extra calories had the same longevity as the more calorie-restricted sedentary group. Hence, the study shows that burning calories mimics greater calorie restriction and therefore should increase lifespan. Extrapolating to humans, if you compare the 1800 cal/day sedentary group to an 1800 cal/day exercising group that burns 200 calories per day, the latter would mimic a 1600-calorie sedentary group. Agreed? -Dave > > > > > > > > > > Hi folks: A couple of weeks ago the question came up whether > > exercise > > > > > with CRON is better than CRON alone. We know exercise increases > > > > > average lifespan, as of course does CRON. We know that exercise > does > > > > > not increase maximal lifespan (generally defined as the average > > > > lifespan > > > > > of the longest-lived 10% of the individuals studied) whereas > CRON > > > > does. > > > > > It is hypothetically possible that exercise + CRON might further > > > > > rectangularize the survival curve, a bit better than that for > CRON > > > > > alone. But it is also possible that the extra calories processed > in > > > > > order to permit the exercise might actually shorten lifespan. > The > > > > > following paper, Holloszy JO 1997, may be the most recent solid > > > > > information on the subject. The link below provides the full > > text. If > > > > > I understand it the gist is that in rats: " .... survival curves > [of > > > > > wheel-running restricted rats] were virtually identical to those > of > > > > > sedentary animals that were food restricted so as to keep their > body > > > > > weights the same as those of the runners. " , and: " ....... > exercise > > > > > does not interfere with the extension of maximal life span by > food > > > > > restriction, and the beneficial effects of food restriction and > > > > exercise > > > > > on survival are not additive or synergistic. " In other words, > if > > > > > these results apply also to humans, exercise will have no effect > > > > either > > > > > positive or negative for lifespan when added on top of CRON. If > > anyone > > > > > has more up-to-date information, please post. > > > > > http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399 > > > > > <http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> Rodney. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Hi Dave: Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. That is why I ask the question. And I will not feel confident about it until I see a couple of studies that specifically checked *it*. There is the argument, after all, that increased exercise generates more nasty by-products. So if this issue is clear to you, it isn't clear to me. And I would like to know the answer. It is not a complicated question. And there are two components to it: what happens to the middle of the survival curve? And what happens to the end of it, compared with sedentaries, with equal caloric intake? I do wish someone would post a study (or two) that did what needs to be done to settle the matter! : ^ ))) Rodney. > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi folks: A couple of weeks ago the question came up whether> > > exercise> > > > > > with CRON is better than CRON alone. We know exercise increases> > > > > > average lifespan, as of course does CRON. We know that exercise> > does> > > > > > not increase maximal lifespan (generally defined as the average> > > > > lifespan> > > > > > of the longest-lived 10% of the individuals studied) whereas> > CRON> > > > > does.> > > > > > It is hypothetically possible that exercise + CRON might further> > > > > > rectangularize the survival curve, a bit better than that for> > CRON> > > > > > alone. But it is also possible that the extra calories processed> > in> > > > > > order to permit the exercise might actually shorten lifespan.> > The> > > > > > following paper, Holloszy JO 1997, may be the most recent solid> > > > > > information on the subject. The link below provides the full> > > text. If> > > > > > I understand it the gist is that in rats: ".... survival curves> > [of> > > > > > wheel-running restricted rats] were virtually identical to those> > of> > > > > > sedentary animals that were food restricted so as to keep their> > body> > > > > > weights the same as those of the runners. " , and: ".......> > exercise> > > > > > does not interfere with the extension of maximal life span by> > food> > > > > > restriction, and the beneficial effects of food restriction and> > > > > exercise> > > > > > on survival are not additive or synergistic. " In other words,> > if> > > > > > these results apply also to humans, exercise will have no effect> > > > > either> > > > > > positive or negative for lifespan when added on top of CRON. If> > > anyone> > > > > > has more up-to-date information, please post.> > > > > > http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> > > > > > <http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/82/2/399> Rodney.> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.