Re: Ancel Keys Minnesota Starvation Experiment

[Guest guest]

Quick response

http://gunpowder.quaker.org/StarvationStudysummary.html

jeff

--- Rodney <perspect1111@...> wrote:

> Hi folks:

>

> Quick request:

>

> I remember seeing posted somewhere, I am fairly sure

> it was here a

> couple of years ago, a link to photographs of the

> subjects of Ancel

> Keys' starvation experiment.

>

> Can anyone recall where those pictures came from? I

> have tried

> seaching here, and via Google, without success.

>

> Help would be much appreciated. TIA.

>

> Rodney.

>

>

Jeff Novick, MS, RD, LD/N

Join The Revolution!

www.JeffNovick.com

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Thank you Jeff! I now find those pictures more interesting than I

had previously, when all I thought on seeing them was something

like: " OK fine, but if people are starved they get thin, right? "

However, I see a little more in them now. For a start I have

determined that the note immediately below the pictures says: " After

five months of starvation diet conscientious objectors Legg

(left) and Cowles have lost 36 and 30 pounds respectively. "

What I now find interesting is that while the man on the right still

does not have what anyone would describe as an " emaciated waist line "

the waist of the man on the left is extraordinarily small. This

latter presumably reflecting the loss of a great deal of visceral

fat. Both men are showing plenty of ribs, but the man on the left

seems closer to starvation in this respect also. They had been

eating 1800 calories a day and burning off about 3000, which included

a compulsory weekly exercise requirement.

I am now looking at these pictures to get some hints about when and

how visceral fat is lost. Simply from the information in the

pictures one might speculate that visceral fat is lost last. Which,

if correct, means we cannot really reduce visceral fat a lot without

getting much closer to real starvation than any of us would want to

go ............... the Minnesota experiment lasted for six months

and the subjects were considered, according to some sources, within

one month of dying at the time re-feeding was started. The pictures

were taken one month before re-feeding.

Dr. Jimmy Bell's MRIs of body fat has raised the issue of visceral

fat. Does anyone have other thoughts about visceral fat? Or other

things we can learn from these pictures?

The free full text of the 2005 paper can be seen here:

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/6/1347

Rodney.

>

> > Hi folks:

> >

> > Quick request:

> >

> > I remember seeing posted somewhere, I am fairly sure

> > it was here a

> > couple of years ago, a link to photographs of the

> > subjects of Ancel

> > Keys' starvation experiment.

> >

> > Can anyone recall where those pictures came from? I

> > have tried

> > seaching here, and via Google, without success.

> >

> > Help would be much appreciated. TIA.

> >

> > Rodney.

> >

> >

>

>

> Jeff Novick, MS, RD, LD/N

>

> Join The Revolution!

> www.JeffNovick.com

>

[Guest guest]

Rodney, I think visceral fat was the easiest for me to lose.

It's the subcutaneous fat that won't come off.

Recall that in the "old" days people weren't as fat as now, as in very few compared to today.

We didn't have fast foods or many prepared foods. Things like wheaties had no sugar added. Transportation was walking a lot, carrying things on a bus. People who had cars considered them a luxury - not for driving to work. Some guys had bicycles.

Guys went into the military and gained weight in 6 weeks to a football class (today) physique. Guys who played high school football did not beef up.

These guys were probably already relatively thin, and they weren't drafted from the older men (<26 yo, I recall).

Regards

[ ] Re: Ancel Keys Minnesota Starvation Experiment

Hi folks:Thank you Jeff! I now find those pictures more interesting than I had previously, when all I thought on seeing them was something like: "OK fine, but if people are starved they get thin, right?"However, I see a little more in them now. For a start I have determined that the note immediately below the pictures says: "After five months of starvation diet conscientious objectors Legg (left) and Cowles have lost 36 and 30 pounds respectively."What I now find interesting is that while the man on the right still does not have what anyone would describe as an "emaciated waist line" the waist of the man on the left is extraordinarily small. This latter presumably reflecting the loss of a great deal of visceral fat. Both men are showing plenty of ribs, but the man on the left seems closer to starvation in this respect also. They had been eating 1800 calories a day and burning off about 3000, which included a compulsory weekly exercise requirement.I am now looking at these pictures to get some hints about when and how visceral fat is lost. Simply from the information in the pictures one might speculate that visceral fat is lost last. Which, if correct, means we cannot really reduce visceral fat a lot without getting much closer to real starvation than any of us would want to go ............... the Minnesota experiment lasted for six months and the subjects were considered, according to some sources, within one month of dying at the time re-feeding was started. The pictures were taken one month before re-feeding.Dr. Jimmy Bell's MRIs of body fat has raised the issue of visceral fat. Does anyone have other thoughts about visceral fat? Or other things we can learn from these pictures?The free full text of the 2005 paper can be seen here:http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/135/6/1347Rodney.--- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...> wrote:>> Quick response> > http://gunpowder.quaker.org/StarvationStudysummary.html> > > > jeff> >

..

[Guest guest]

If this be true then how do bodybuilders without the use of steroids

lose fat without losing muscle mass? These fellas were on a exercise

program. You would think they would have maintained muscle mass.

What were their diets? A high protein diet or a low protein diet? I

feel a person should try to maintain muscle mass but maybe I am wrong

in my approach to this related to CR. Maybe there is no equilibrium

or balance to this approach.

I really am interested in the answer to the question of losing fat

and losing muscle mass. We have found in our personal experience

that the Higher carb less protein approach to CR causes loss of

muscle mass. Thanks for comment in advance if others have any ideas

on this.

Bob

> >

> > > Hi folks:

> > >

> > > Quick request:

> > >

> > > I remember seeing posted somewhere, I am fairly sure

> > > it was here a

> > > couple of years ago, a link to photographs of the

> > > subjects of Ancel

> > > Keys' starvation experiment.

> > >

> > > Can anyone recall where those pictures came from? I

> > > have tried

> > > seaching here, and via Google, without success.

> > >

> > > Help would be much appreciated. TIA.

> > >

> > > Rodney.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Jeff Novick, MS, RD, LD/N

> >

> > Join The Revolution!

> > www.JeffNovick.com

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Rodney,

Losing fat requires physical activity and lowering the calories below

those required by BMR+exercise. The lowering of calories must be

accomplished by reducing the carbohydrates in the diet, which if not

burned immediately by exercise get stored first as glycogen and then

as fat. The diet must be high in protein and include essential fatty

acids.

You may find it surprising, but about 80% of body fat is subcutaneous

adipose tissue, and 10% is abdominal fat. This is better visualized

by looking at the pictures that have come from the National Library of

Medicine's Visible Human Project. The following web page has a

cross-section of an obese female:

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/fitness/weight1.html

There are many internet applications that enable you to examine

interactively the " visible " man and woman (e.g.,

http://vhp.med.umich.edu/browsers/female.html).

Bodybuilders, who are interested in losing fat while preserving

muscle, combine high protein diets (Zone-like) with vigorous exercise

to burn off the fat. They also eat several small meals per day to

keep a positive nitrogen balance and avoid muscle loss. Here are some

typical articles:

Commandments for dieting:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catcommand2.htm

Many articles on losing fat:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bbinfo.php?page=cuttingupdiets

You have to be aware that fat weight is lost through the lungs as

carbon dioxide. This is why exercise is important for losing fat --

it raises your breathing rate.

Tony

> >

> > > Hi folks:

> > >

> > > Quick request:

> > >

> > > I remember seeing posted somewhere, I am fairly sure

> > > it was here a

> > > couple of years ago, a link to photographs of the

> > > subjects of Ancel

> > > Keys' starvation experiment.

> > >

> > > Can anyone recall where those pictures came from? I

> > > have tried

> > > seaching here, and via Google, without success.

> > >

> > > Help would be much appreciated. TIA.

> > >

> > > Rodney.

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Jeff Novick, MS, RD, LD/N

> >

> > Join The Revolution!

> > www.JeffNovick.com

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Body builders are not on CR.

No one will maintain muscle mass with a delta of 1200 kcals.

Studies show we lose both muscle and fat when dieting, which is to say anyone eating less than that required to maintain weight is dieting.

My first attempt to lose weight was at the gym, and I gained weight, non CR.

My goal was to lose weight not necessarily fat, but I logically concluded I would lose fat. Well the % BF went down - my weight only about 5#. I used 300 kcals of REAL work.

As I recall from references to the study since I can't afford the book, they were fed what they expected the Germans to be feeding their prisoners - high carb - oatmeal.

If I eat a high protein diet, I will burn that if carbs are not available to satisfy energy requirements.

So a balance is required for a minimum calorie diet.

Consider:

Appl Physiol Nutr Metab. 2007 Jun;32(3):512-22.

Links

Physical activity in the treatment of obesity: beyond body weight reduction.

Janiszewski PM, Ross R.

School of Kinesiology and Health Studies, Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada.

The prevalence of obesity is high and continues to increase. Obesity is a leading risk factor for premature mortality and numerous chronic health conditions. The role of physical activity as a treatment and (or) preventive strategy for combating obesity has been the subject of substantial research. Most of this research has focused solely on reductions in total body weight and (or) fat mass as the indicator of treatment success. Because the deposition of fat in the abdomen and nonadipose tissues of the liver and muscle plays a major role in the development of obesity-related health risk, these depots have emerged as alternative targets for obesity treatment. Absent from previous reviews is a detailed consideration of the influence of physical activity on these treatment outcomes. The purpose of this review is to evaluate the independent role of physical activity in the treatment of obesity in a broader context; that is, through its effects on abdominal obesity and liver and muscle fat, in addition to its established effects on body weight and (or) total fat mass. Consideration is also given to the utility of physical activity with minimal or no weight loss in the treatment of obesity.PMID: 17510691

Regards

[ ] Re: Ancel Keys Minnesota Starvation Experiment

If this be true then how do bodybuilders without the use of steroids lose fat without losing muscle mass? These fellas were on a exercise program. You would think they would have maintained muscle mass. What were their diets? A high protein diet or a low protein diet? I feel a person should try to maintain muscle mass but maybe I am wrong in my approach to this related to CR. Maybe there is no equilibrium or balance to this approach.I really am interested in the answer to the question of losing fat and losing muscle mass. We have found in our personal experience that the Higher carb less protein approach to CR causes loss of muscle mass. Thanks for comment in advance if others have any ideas on this.

..

[Guest guest]

A point of clarification... bodybuilders don't, and can't 'avoid'

total muscle loss while losing weight, they make the less strong claim

of MINIMIZING muscle loss with high protein/reduced carbs esp simple

carbs. They cannot prevent all muscle loss but experience LESS muscle

loss as they lose weight (or so they claim). To my knowledge their

claims are anecdotal and have never been substantiated. Also, i think

you must distinquish between 'pro' bodybuilders that take steroids and

natural bodybuilders. Steroids may help minimize loss too or even be

the significant factor in their successful muscle preservation.

http://www.baye.com/articles/getting_lean.php

> > >

> > > > Hi folks:

> > > >

> > > > Quick request:

> > > >

> > > > I remember seeing posted somewhere, I am fairly sure

> > > > it was here a

> > > > couple of years ago, a link to photographs of the

> > > > subjects of Ancel

> > > > Keys' starvation experiment.

> > > >

> > > > Can anyone recall where those pictures came from? I

> > > > have tried

> > > > seaching here, and via Google, without success.

> > > >

> > > > Help would be much appreciated. TIA.

> > > >

> > > > Rodney.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Jeff Novick, MS, RD, LD/N

> > >

> > > Join The Revolution!

> > > www.JeffNovick.com

> > >

> >

>