Re: Selenium Supplements May Raise Diabetes Risk by 50%

[Guest guest]

Hi:

If taking 200 mcg of digestible selenium daily in essentially pure

form in a supplement increases risk of diabetes, by what logic would

consuming 200 mcg of digestible selenium daily not increase risk of

diabetes when it happens to be mixed up with other stuff, in a nut,

for example?

I would guess that the effect would not be materially different.

As I understand the whole foods argument, it is that there may be

additional nutrients in whole foods which we do not know about, which

are not in the supplement, and may confer other benefits. Not that

200 units of some nutrient is harmful on its own but not when mixed in

with food. Otherwise, surely, all you would have to do to get the

alleged benefit would be to mix the supplement in with some food you

happen to be eating. Right? In the case of selenium, eat the

supplement along with some almonds, perhaps?

Rodney.

>

> http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?id=3360328 & page=1

>

> ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that may be better to

> supplement

>

> Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in their natural

> package

>

> " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants from the study who

> were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-microgram selenium

> supplement daily for an average of nearly eight years, while half

> received a placebo pill over the same duration.

>

> What researchers found was that those taking the actual selenium

> supplements actually increased their risk of developing type II

> diabetes by about 50 percent. "

>

[Guest guest]

You could make the same argument to justify taking a larger dose of

any vitamin, couldn't you? Just take the pill with food...

It's interesting the tolerable upper intake level (UL) for selenium is

set at 400 micrograms per day for adults to prevent the risk of

developing selenosis. The RDA for an adult is 55mcg. ONE Brazil nut

kernal contains 96mcg! Would eating two kernals per day increase one's

risk of diabetes? hard to believe it would

> >

> > http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?id=3360328 & page=1

> >

> > ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that may be better to

> > supplement

> >

> > Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in their natural

> > package

> >

> > " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants from the study who

> > were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-microgram selenium

> > supplement daily for an average of nearly eight years, while half

> > received a placebo pill over the same duration.

> >

> > What researchers found was that those taking the actual selenium

> > supplements actually increased their risk of developing type II

> > diabetes by about 50 percent. "

> >

>

[Guest guest]

oops i wanted to include this fact sheet regarding selenium:

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/selenium.asp

hard to believe 2 or 3 Brazil nuts every day over years would be a

risk for diabetes but i guess it is possible because the nuts are such

a concentrated source of the potential risk factor in question

-selenium :|

> > >

> > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?id=3360328 & page=1

> > >

> > > ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that may be better to

> > > supplement

> > >

> > > Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in their natural

> > > package

> > >

> > > " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants from the

study who

> > > were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-microgram selenium

> > > supplement daily for an average of nearly eight years, while half

> > > received a placebo pill over the same duration.

> > >

> > > What researchers found was that those taking the actual selenium

> > > supplements actually increased their risk of developing type II

> > > diabetes by about 50 percent. "

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill:

Not sure I understand your first point. It seems to me that *if*

selenium is toxic it is toxic whether it is eaten as a supplement or

comes from food - unless the problem derives from something specific

about the particular compound of which the supplement containing the

selenium is made. (For another example: none of potassium, carbon or

nitrogen are dangerous, yet a compound composed of one atom of each

is absolutely deadly, as Rommel realized).

The issue with vitamins, if I understand your point, is not that they

are toxic as supplements but not toxic in food, but instead that the

benefit in many cases seems to come from something else in the food,

as yet not understood, not the vitamin which happens to also be in

it. Which if true is essentially saying the vitamin is inert in

either form.

Second, as regards the risk of selenium to those on CR: since the

biomarkers of people on CRON suggest our diabetes risk is low, a 50%

increase in risk may be insignificant.

Rodney.

> > >

> > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?

id=3360328 & page=1

> > >

> > > ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that may be

better to

> > > supplement

> > >

> > > Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in their natural

> > > package

> > >

> > > " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants from the

study who

> > > were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-microgram selenium

> > > supplement daily for an average of nearly eight years, while

half

> > > received a placebo pill over the same duration.

> > >

> > > What researchers found was that those taking the actual selenium

> > > supplements actually increased their risk of developing type II

> > > diabetes by about 50 percent. "

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I thought it was YOUR point to mix the selenium supplement in with

food like almonds to get the additional potential benefit of whatever

else is in the natural " package " that might offset any negative effect

of too much of the supplement?

As for " insignificant " risk.. isn't the point of the " ON " part of CRON

to discover the optimum nutritional plan. Now maybe consuming daily

several hundred % above the RDA's for selenium imparts other benefits

that tip the balance of the scale in favor of accepting the additional

risk of diabetes, and therefore would be consistent with ON, but what

would those benefits be? a 50% risk, assuming it exists is still a

risk that may be unnecessary.

If i recall correctly you have been taking 200 mcg of seleniumdaily

for many years now? Correct me if i am wrong.

> > > >

> > > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?

> id=3360328 & page=1

> > > >

> > > > ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that may be

> better to

> > > > supplement

> > > >

> > > > Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in their natural

> > > > package

> > > >

> > > > " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants from the

> study who

> > > > were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-microgram selenium

> > > > supplement daily for an average of nearly eight years, while

> half

> > > > received a placebo pill over the same duration.

> > > >

> > > > What researchers found was that those taking the actual selenium

> > > > supplements actually increased their risk of developing type II

> > > > diabetes by about 50 percent. "

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill:

I think we are talking cross purposes. I did not advocate taking a

selenium supplement with almonds. By giving that example I had

intended to communicate that if it was true that taking selenium on

its own is harmful, but not harmful if eaten as a part of a food, as

you seemed to be suggesting, then one could make any harmless

substance useful simply by eating it with some other food - any other

food. Which plainly doesn't seem likely to be true. This is what I

said, asterisks added for emphasis:

" As I understand the whole foods argument, it is that there may be

additional nutrients in whole foods which we do not know about, which

are not in the supplement, and may confer other benefits. ***Not that

200 units of some nutrient is harmful on its own but not when mixed in

with food. Otherwise, surely, all you would have to do to get the

alleged benefit would be to mix the supplement in with some food you

happen to be eating. Right?*** In the case of selenium, eat the

supplement along with some almonds, perhaps? "

My point is that IF selenium is dangerous then eating it with

almonds, or anything else, including brazils, is not going to make it

healthy. Any more than eating arsenic would have health benefits if

eaten with pistachios.

So IF selenium is dangerous, it is dangerous, no matter how it is

eaten. (While noting the point that compounds containing harmless

individual elements may have characteristics very different from

those of the individual elements of which they are composed.)

However, even if this latest study implicating selenium with diabetes

is subsequently confirmed, how dangerous is selenium? I

think/hope/believe my chances of getting diabetes are negligible. I

have no relatives of any kind who ever suffered from it. Nor did I

have any signs of it when I weighed 35 pounds more than I do now.

Nor do close relatives of mine show any signs of it who weigh 65

pounds more than I do currently. So, imo, 50% higher than negligible

is still negligible.

However, there are cases of cancer among my ancestors. So for me an

anti-cancer benefit, attibuted to selenium, seems worth the effort.

I plan to continue eating a couple of brazils a day most days, as I

have been doing for some years.

I hope this clarifies my position. Naturally, persuasive evidence

from future studies may cause me to change my views in the future.

Rodney.

> > > >

> > > > Hi:

> > > >

> > > > If taking 200 mcg of digestible selenium daily in essentially

> > pure

> > > > form in a supplement increases risk of diabetes, by what

logic

> > would

> > > > consuming 200 mcg of digestible selenium daily not increase

risk

> > of

> > > > diabetes when it happens to be mixed up with other stuff, in

a

> > nut,

> > > > for example?

> > > >

> > > > I would guess that the effect would not be materially

different.

> > > >

> > > > As I understand the whole foods argument, it is that there

may be

> > > > additional nutrients in whole foods which we do not know

about,

> > which

> > > > are not in the supplement, and may confer other benefits.

Not

> > that

> > > > 200 units of some nutrient is harmful on its own but not when

> > mixed in

> > > > with food. Otherwise, surely, all you would have to do to

get

> > the

> > > > alleged benefit would be to mix the supplement in with some

food

> > you

> > > > happen to be eating. Right? In the case of selenium, eat

the

> > > > supplement along with some almonds, perhaps?

> > > >

> > > > Rodney.

> > > >

> > > > --- In , " bill4cr " <bill4cr@>

wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?

> > id=3360328 & page=1

> > > > >

> > > > > ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that may be

> > better to

> > > > > supplement

> > > > >

> > > > > Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in their

natural

> > > > > package

> > > > >

> > > > > " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants from the

> > study who

> > > > > were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-microgram

selenium

> > > > > supplement daily for an average of nearly eight years,

while

> > half

> > > > > received a placebo pill over the same duration.

> > > > >

> > > > > What researchers found was that those taking the actual

selenium

> > > > > supplements actually increased their risk of developing

type II

> > > > > diabetes by about 50 percent. "

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

What % of CR'd mice or monkeys (or other animal models) develop

diabetes despite doing everything " right " , does anyone know?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?

> > > id=3360328 & page=1

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that may be

> > > better to

> > > > > > supplement

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in their

> natural

> > > > > > package

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants from the

> > > study who

> > > > > > were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-microgram

> selenium

> > > > > > supplement daily for an average of nearly eight years,

> while

> > > half

> > > > > > received a placebo pill over the same duration.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What researchers found was that those taking the actual

> selenium

> > > > > > supplements actually increased their risk of developing

> type II

> > > > > > diabetes by about 50 percent. "

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill:

" The Genetics of Diabetes " :

http://www.diabetes.org/genetics.jsp

Rodney.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?

> > > > id=3360328 & page=1

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that may

be

> > > > better to

> > > > > > > supplement

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in

their

> > natural

> > > > > > > package

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants from

the

> > > > study who

> > > > > > > were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-microgram

> > selenium

> > > > > > > supplement daily for an average of nearly eight years,

> > while

> > > > half

> > > > > > > received a placebo pill over the same duration.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What researchers found was that those taking the actual

> > selenium

> > > > > > > supplements actually increased their risk of developing

> > type II

> > > > > > > diabetes by about 50 percent. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill:

It seems that the following are the major risk factors for diabetes.

I have not been able to find data that ranks them for importance.

But I have put them in an order that seems may make some sense (at

least to me):

*** Ethnicity (being caucasian seems best)

*** Age (15% of people over 70 have diabetes mellitus)

*** Family history (especially parents or siblings)

*** Obesity (perhaps especially as measured by waist to hip

ratio? " 80% to 90% of those with type 2 diabetes are obese. " )

*** Sedentary

*** Impaired glucose tolerance

*** Impaired fasting glucose

*** High blood pressure

*** High cholesterol or triglycerides

----------

*** Females who have had a baby weighing over nine pounds at birth

*** Females who have had gestational diabetes

If anyone can find better information than the above, especially data

showing how incidence varies for varying levels of each of the above

criteria, please post it.

Rodney.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?

> > > > > id=3360328 & page=1

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that

may

> be

> > > > > better to

> > > > > > > > supplement

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in

> their

> > > natural

> > > > > > > > package

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants

from

> the

> > > > > study who

> > > > > > > > were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-

microgram

> > > selenium

> > > > > > > > supplement daily for an average of nearly eight

years,

> > > while

> > > > > half

> > > > > > > > received a placebo pill over the same duration.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What researchers found was that those taking the

actual

> > > selenium

> > > > > > > > supplements actually increased their risk of

developing

> > > type II

> > > > > > > > diabetes by about 50 percent. "

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

More info:

Selenium Supplements May Increase The Risk Of Type 2 Diabetes

Science Daily — Selenium, an antioxidant included in multivitamin

tablets thought to have a possible protective effect against the

development of type 2 diabetes, may actually increase the risk of

developing the disease, an analysis by researchers at the University

at Buffalo has shown.

Results of a randomized clinical trial using 200 micrograms of

selenium alone showed that 55 percent more cases of type 2 diabetes

developed among participants randomized to receive selenium than in

those who received a placebo pill.

Results will appear in print in the August 2007 issue of ls of

Internal Medicine and were posted online on July 10.

Self-reported diagnosis of type 2 diabetes was a secondary endpoint in

a clinical trial designed to test the benefit of selenium

supplementation in prevention of non-melanoma skin cancer in areas in

the Eastern U.S. where selenium levels are lower than the national

average. Selenium is a trace mineral that is an essential component of

proteins involved in antioxidant activity.

Saverio Stranges, M.D., Ph.D., first author on the diabetes prevention

study, conducted the analysis while at UB, in cooperation with

colleagues from Roswell Park Cancer Institute. He now is affiliated

with the Clinical Sciences Research Institute, Warwick Medical School,

Coventry, UK.

Stranges said the findings are very interesting, but should be

considered cautiously.

" Among participants taking selenium supplementation, those who had the

highest levels of selenium in their circulation at the beginning of

the study had the highest risk of developing type 2 diabetes over the

average 7.7 years of follow-up, " he said, " and the increase in risk is

unlikely to be a result of chance.

" However, in the general population, very few people, if any, take

selenium supplements only, every day, for nearly eight years, so we

can't be sure that these findings apply to the public at large.

" Perhaps the more important message is that a large proportion of the

U.S. population, about 50 percent, takes multivitamins, even though

there is no evidence that taking multivitamins helps prevent chronic

disease among healthy people. In this country, we can get all the

antioxidants we need in fruits and vegetables, but it's easier to take

a vitamin than to eat a more healthy diet. "

The selenium and diabetes study involved 1,202 people who did not have

type 2 diabetes when they entered the cancer clinical trial at Roswell

Park. Participants had been recruited for the main study between 1983

and 1991, and they were involved for an average of 7.7 years. The

supplementation study was completed in February 1996.

Analysis for this diabetes study involved data from 600 persons who

had taken selenium and 602 who were randomized to receive placebo pills.

Results showed that 97 participants developed type 2 diabetes during

the study period, 58 in the selenium group and 39 in the placebo

group. There was no difference in the findings when age, sex, smoking

status and body mass index were included in the analysis.

" At the moment we don't know what mechanism or mechanisms account for

this finding, " said Stranges. " We have very little understanding of

the possible biological pathways involved. In addition, our findings

need to be replicated in larger clinical trials before conclusive

evidence can be drawn on whether high doses of selenium supplements

increase the risk of type 2 diabetes, as our study suggests.

" With selenium, which is a trace element, it may be the case that a

little bit is essential, but more can cause detrimental effects, at

least in well-nourished populations such as the U.S. It's possible

that taking extra selenium overcomes the natural balance. Perhaps

excess selenium has a negative effect on the endocrine system. "

Additional authors are R. Marshal, Ph.D., Raj Natarajan, and

E. Reid, Ph.D., from Roswell Park; P. Donahue, Ph.D., and

Maurizio Trevisan, M.D, from the UB School of Public Health and Health

Professions; Gerald F. Combs, Ph.D., from the Human Nutrition Research

Center, Grand Forks, N.D.; and Francesco P. Cappuccio, M.D., and

Ceriello, M.D., from Warwick Medical School, UK.

Note: This story has been adapted from a news release issued by

University at Buffalo.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/Diabetes/story?

> > > > > > id=3360328 & page=1

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ..and here i thought selenium was one of a few that

> may

> > be

> > > > > > better to

> > > > > > > > > supplement

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Once again, seems best to consume your vitamins in

> > their

> > > > natural

> > > > > > > > > package

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " Researchers selected more than 1,200 participants

> from

> > the

> > > > > > study who

> > > > > > > > > were initially diabetes-free. Half took a 200-

> microgram

> > > > selenium

> > > > > > > > > supplement daily for an average of nearly eight

> years,

> > > > while

> > > > > > half

> > > > > > > > > received a placebo pill over the same duration.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What researchers found was that those taking the

> actual

> > > > selenium

> > > > > > > > > supplements actually increased their risk of

> developing

> > > > type II

> > > > > > > > > diabetes by about 50 percent. "

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

That Vemma product is sold through a multi level marketing organization. That

means that the product, although it may be useful, is expensive, since it has to

pay a lot of royalties for the distribution chain. When a product is sold

through multi level marketing associations, what is being sold to you is

primarily the business of selling, the opportunity to sell a unique product

until it is no longer unique or price competitive. In other words, the pitch is

always, " join this organization and sell this unique product. " All of the

benefits are presented to you by testimonials, not by clinical tests, as for

example " I used to have pain, be low in energy, and I started taking this

product and I'm a changed person. My wife/child/significant other cannot believe

it (yawn). "

Take it from someone who has " been there, done that. " A childhood friend became

a millionarie seling a product that boosted one's energy, so I became a

distributor of it in 1991. I gave it a run of a year and a half. Another friend

criticised me for selling cookies for weight loss, a good and funny observation.

At least the experience got me interested in health and nutrition. That

childhood friend moved on to a new MLM and recently tried to expose me to a new

product that was going to increase my longevity, if I took some " enzymes in a

bottle that were sure to boost my immune system. " I guess I should have bitten,

eh?

Cheers,

Arturo

Re: Selenium Supplements May Raise Diabetes Risk by 50%

Posted by: " martin sladek " martinsldk@... martinsldk

Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:21 pm (PST)

The source of Selenium also should skew the results reported. Selenium present

in multivitamin tablets is present as a salt with other mineral salts. Plant

sourced Selenium is acceptable from fruits and vegetables because it is in a

bio-ready ionic form.

There is a liquid multivitamin, with essential minerals(plant sourced

phytonutrients) in ionic form combined with mangosteen and aloe. It is called

Vemma.

For info link

www.vemma.com

Thank me later,