Re: My Cholesterol changes in 3 weeks of CRON

[Guest guest]

Congrats.

This is not atypical to what we see here on a regular

basis, even before there is much weight loss (about

20-33%)

I think i recently posted a study we published on the

same thing.

Again, congrats

Jeff

--- Regina i <juliascotti@...>

wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> I am very very happy!

>

> At the 19. Apr I started CRONing, at the 24.April I

> got my cholesterol

> tested and found out it was 252!!! (HDL=68).

>

> Since then, I changed my diet (based on all the

> papers and emails I read in

> this list) from the low fat almost vegan to a zoned

> omnivorous (but not

> much) 1493 kcals-average >100% RDA diet.

>

> And today I measured 165 !!!!! And this reduction

> happened in 2 weeks!

>

> And I am so happy that I am sure I am going to be

> CRed for 100 more years (I

> am 26 hehehe)

>

> I lost a little more than one pound in this three

> weeks. Is this ok or do

> you think I should decrease the calories?

>

> Thank you all very much,

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

> MSN Messenger: instale grátis e converse com seus

> amigos.

> http://messenger.msn.com.br

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am a little confused by your statement Jeff, are you saying that,

before weightloss, you often see large increases in cholesterol with

the Pritikin plan (which is predominately a plant food diet)? I

thought it was the opposite? What would happens to their cholesterol

after one's weight stabilizes and no more weight loss is forthcoming?

Would you clarify, thank you.

>

> > Hi All,

> >

> > I am very very happy!

> >

> > At the 19. Apr I started CRONing, at the 24.April I

> > got my cholesterol

> > tested and found out it was 252!!! (HDL=68).

> >

> > Since then, I changed my diet (based on all the

> > papers and emails I read in

> > this list) from the low fat almost vegan to a zoned

> > omnivorous (but not

> > much) 1493 kcals-average >100% RDA diet.

> >

> > And today I measured 165 !!!!! And this reduction

> > happened in 2 weeks!

> >

> > And I am so happy that I am sure I am going to be

> > CRed for 100 more years (I

> > am 26 hehehe)

> >

> > I lost a little more than one pound in this three

> > weeks. Is this ok or do

> > you think I should decrease the calories?

> >

> > Thank you all very much,

> >

> >

> >

> >

> _________________________________________________________________

> > MSN Messenger: instale grátis e converse com seus

> > amigos.

> > http://messenger.msn.com.br

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> I am a little confused by your statement Jeff, are

> you saying that,

> before weightloss, you often see large increases in

> cholesterol with

> the Pritikin plan (which is predominately a plant

> food diet)? I

> thought it was the opposite? What would happens to

> their cholesterol

> after one's weight stabilizes and no more weight

> loss is forthcoming?

> Would you clarify, thank you.

We see large decreases in cholesterol (and most all

lipid numbers) even before there is a huge or

sometimes even any weight loss.

Hope that clarifies

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Ok. I am confused because her cholesterol INCREASED while on a CRON

plant-based diet but decreased substantially after she modified her

diet to include meat protein.

>

> > I am a little confused by your statement Jeff, are

> > you saying that,

> > before weightloss, you often see large increases in

> > cholesterol with

> > the Pritikin plan (which is predominately a plant

> > food diet)? I

> > thought it was the opposite? What would happens to

> > their cholesterol

> > after one's weight stabilizes and no more weight

> > loss is forthcoming?

> > Would you clarify, thank you.

>

> We see large decreases in cholesterol (and most all

> lipid numbers) even before there is a huge or

> sometimes even any weight loss.

>

> Hope that clarifies

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

> Ok. I am confused because her cholesterol INCREASED

> while on a CRON

> plant-based diet but decreased substantially after

> she modified her

> diet to include meat protein.

Your correct. I misread her email.

However, I would want to see the details of both

diets. There is much more to these issues then just

being vegan or not. You can easily create a zone type

diet that is healthier than a vegan type diet, but

that doesnt reinforce or negate either type of diet.

What we need to know are the specifics including fat,

saturated fat, cholesterol, fiber, soluble fiber,

EFAs, etc for both diets.

I just finished a debate with one of the PCRM people

as they put out a bunch of PR saying their vegan diet

lowered diabetes. That is misleading. The components

of the diet that made it healthy were mostly contained

in the plants, but it wasnt just the " vegan " aspect of

it. Adding a small amount of animal protein wouldnt

have made it worse and, there are plenty of vegan

diets that would make diabetes worse. So, its not the

vegan aspect but that was their promo on it. Thats

promoting an agenda, not a health message.

BTW, I only had this debate because a week earlier

they blasted some other PR in the news promoting fish,

saying it wasnt the fish, it was the total diet. I

agree.

But, Fair is fair.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

Am I reading the right message? This is what I see:

----------

" At the 19. Apr I started CRONing, at the 24.April I got my

cholesterol tested and found out it was 252!!! (HDL=68).

Since then, I changed my diet (based on all the papers and emails I

read in this list) from the low fat almost vegan to a zoned

omnivorous (but not much) 1493 kcals-average >100% RDA diet.

And today I measured 165!!!! And this reduction happened in 2 weeks! "

----------

It does **not** say cholesterol **increased** on a CRON diet. It

says, as I understand it, that five days after starting a CRON diet

cholesterol was HIGH - NOT increased.

Indeed, logically, after five days, it was very probably already down

somewhat from from where it had been before CRON was started?

It then says that on 8th May - 19 days after starting CRON - total

cholesterol had dropped to 165 - well below where it had been after

five days.

So my guess is that what this is saying is that CRON has reduced

total cholesterol from 270 (for a number) to 165. Not bad. And not

out of the ordinary in the light of the recent UCLA/Pritikin paper

referenced here, which showed dramatic improvements in CVD risk

factors within just three weeks of starting a CRON/Pritikin diet.

Or is there some other message I didn't see?

Rodney.

--- In , Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...>

wrote:

>

> > Ok. I am confused because her cholesterol INCREASED

> > while on a CRON

> > plant-based diet but decreased substantially after

> > she modified her

> > diet to include meat protein.

>

> Your correct. I misread her email.

>

> However, I would want to see the details of both

> diets. There is much more to these issues then just

> being vegan or not. You can easily create a zone type

> diet that is healthier than a vegan type diet, but

> that doesnt reinforce or negate either type of diet.

> What we need to know are the specifics including fat,

> saturated fat, cholesterol, fiber, soluble fiber,

> EFAs, etc for both diets.

>

> I just finished a debate with one of the PCRM people

> as they put out a bunch of PR saying their vegan diet

> lowered diabetes. That is misleading. The components

> of the diet that made it healthy were mostly contained

> in the plants, but it wasnt just the " vegan " aspect of

> it. Adding a small amount of animal protein wouldnt

> have made it worse and, there are plenty of vegan

> diets that would make diabetes worse. So, its not the

> vegan aspect but that was their promo on it. Thats

> promoting an agenda, not a health message.

>

> BTW, I only had this debate because a week earlier

> they blasted some other PR in the news promoting fish,

> saying it wasnt the fish, it was the total diet. I

> agree.

>

> But, Fair is fair.

>

> Regards

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I am sorry for not explaining correctly. I also don't believe it was the

meat protein, but the amount of (vegetable) fat.

For example, the first day that I used CRON-o-Meter.

19 April (measurements estimated) - this day represents my previous diet

Tomato sauce, no salt added 100 g 37,0

Eggplant, raw 100 g 24,0

Soybeans, mature seeds, sprouted, raw 100 g 122,0

Onions, raw 100 g 40,0

Garlic, raw 10 g 14,9

Cucumber, with peel, raw 100 g 15,0

Vinegar, balsamic 10 g 5,3

Strawberries, raw 100 g 32,0

Milk, producer, fluid, 3.7% milkfat 100 g 64,0

Lemon juice, raw 15 g 3,8

Optiwell Control 100 g 43,0 -> Yogurt

Alcoholic beverage, beer, regular, all 500 g 215,0

Peas, green, raw 150 g 121,5

Optiwell Control 100 g 43,0

Alcoholic beverage, beer, regular, all 500 g 215,0

pasta integral barilla raw 40 g 134,8 -> whole wheat spagetti

Today:

Brot viva vital 50 g 88,2 -> high protein bread

Salt, table 3 g 0,0

calcium das gesunde plus 1 Serving 7,5

Quorn wurst de 100 g 102,0

Onions, raw 90 g 36,0

Tomatoes, red, ripe, raw, year round average 180 g 32,4

Squash, zucchini, baby, raw 149 g 31,3

Carrots, raw 147 g 60,3

Milk, producer, fluid, 3.7% milkfat 180 g 115,2

Garlic, raw 5 g 7,4

Tofu, extra firm, Sunrise 30 g 45,9

frishkäse no fat 34 g 13,3

Vegetable oil, canola 3 g 26,5

Oil, olive, salad or cooking 3 g 26,5

Carrots, raw 195 g 80,0

Tomatoes, red, ripe, raw, year round average 150 g 27,0

Spinach, raw 90 g 20,7

Spinach, raw 70 g 16,1

Tofu, extra firm, Sunrise 20 g 30,6

Garlic, raw 3 g 4,5

Vegetable oil, canola 3 g 26,5

Seeds, flaxseed alemao 5 g 18,8

Oil, olive, salad or cooking 3 g 26,5

Fish, salmon, Atlantic, farmed, raw 100 g 183,0

Broccoli, raw 187 g 63,6

;-)

----Original Message Follows----

From: Jeff Novick <chefjeff40@...>

Reply-

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: My Cholesterol changes in 3 weeks of CRON

Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 12:29:38 -0700 (PDT)

> Ok. I am confused because her cholesterol INCREASED

> while on a CRON

> plant-based diet but decreased substantially after

> she modified her

> diet to include meat protein.

Your correct. I misread her email.

However, I would want to see the details of both

diets. There is much more to these issues then just

being vegan or not. You can easily create a zone type

diet that is healthier than a vegan type diet, but

that doesnt reinforce or negate either type of diet.

What we need to know are the specifics including fat,

saturated fat, cholesterol, fiber, soluble fiber,

EFAs, etc for both diets.

I just finished a debate with one of the PCRM people

as they put out a bunch of PR saying their vegan diet

lowered diabetes. That is misleading. The components

of the diet that made it healthy were mostly contained

in the plants, but it wasnt just the " vegan " aspect of

it. Adding a small amount of animal protein wouldnt

have made it worse and, there are plenty of vegan

diets that would make diabetes worse. So, its not the

vegan aspect but that was their promo on it. Thats

promoting an agenda, not a health message.

BTW, I only had this debate because a week earlier

they blasted some other PR in the news promoting fish,

saying it wasnt the fish, it was the total diet. I

agree.

But, Fair is fair.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff

By PCRM I take it your mean Physician's Committee

for Responsible Medicine. I just googled the

acronym and got to their page.

Not to confuse further. I'm aware of the Zone diet,

which is meat based and higher in protein and fat.

But there are also zoned vegans - at least that is

where I'm at, with PFC ratio of 30 25 45 (protein,

fats, carbohydrates). I think the source of fat

in my diet is from nuts and flaxseed crackers,

in my particular case. I supplement with flaxseed

oil pills. My sources of protein are vegetarian.

My cholesterol is very low on my vegan diet

Cholesterol 100

Triglycerides 61

HDL 50

VLDL 12

LDL 38

Cheers,

Arturo

Re: My Cholesterol changes in 3 weeks of CRON

Posted by: " Jeff Novick " chefjeff40@... chefjeff40

Tue May 8, 2007 12:30 pm (PST)

> Ok. I am confused because her cholesterol INCREASED

> while on a CRON

> plant-based diet but decreased substantially after

> she modified her

> diet to include meat protein.

Your correct. I misread her email.

However, I would want to see the details of both

diets. There is much more to these issues then just

being vegan or not. You can easily create a zone type

diet that is healthier than a vegan type diet, but

that doesnt reinforce or negate either type of diet.

What we need to know are the specifics including fat,

saturated fat, cholesterol, fiber, soluble fiber,

EFAs, etc for both diets.

I just finished a debate with one of the PCRM people

as they put out a bunch of PR saying their vegan diet

lowered diabetes. That is misleading. The components

of the diet that made it healthy were mostly contained

in the plants, but it wasnt just the " vegan " aspect of

it. Adding a small amount of animal protein wouldnt

have made it worse and, there are plenty of vegan

diets that would make diabetes worse. <snip>

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for providing the detailed description of your current and

previous diet. This makes it easier to figure out why your

cholesterol normalized. The problem with your previous diet was that

it was basically fat free. You were not getting enough of the

essential omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids, your diet was high in

carbohydrates, and the milk fat had mostly saturated fats.

Fat-free, high-carbohydrate diets increase cholesterol because

carbohydrates get metabolized into palmitic acid, which is a saturated

fatty acid. This is called " de novo " synthesis of fatty acids.

Cholesterol levels increase without the balancing effect of the

essential fatty acids.

Your new diet has canola oil, flax oil, and fish oil all of which have

the essential fatty acids that were missing in your previous diet.

I am glad that you fixed your cholesterol with diet, rather than going

to a doctor that would have given you Lipitor, Crestor, or some other

drug to lower cholesterol.

Here are some equations and references about how fatty acid balance in

your diet affects cholesterol:

http://www.scientificpsychic.com/health/cholesterol1.html

Tony

>

> Hi,

>

> I am sorry for not explaining correctly. I also don't believe it was

the

> meat protein, but the amount of (vegetable) fat.

>

> For example, the first day that I used CRON-o-Meter.

>

> 19 April (measurements estimated) - this day represents my previous diet

>

> Tomato sauce, no salt added 100 g 37,0

> Eggplant, raw 100 g 24,0

> Soybeans, mature seeds, sprouted, raw 100 g 122,0

> Onions, raw 100 g 40,0

> Garlic, raw 10 g 14,9

> Cucumber, with peel, raw 100 g 15,0

> Vinegar, balsamic 10 g 5,3

> Strawberries, raw 100 g 32,0

> Milk, producer, fluid, 3.7% milkfat 100 g 64,0

> Lemon juice, raw 15 g 3,8

> Optiwell Control 100 g 43,0 -> Yogurt

> Alcoholic beverage, beer, regular, all 500 g 215,0

> Peas, green, raw 150 g 121,5

> Optiwell Control 100 g 43,0

> Alcoholic beverage, beer, regular, all 500 g 215,0

> pasta integral barilla raw 40 g 134,8 -> whole wheat spagetti

>

> Today:

>

> Brot viva vital 50 g 88,2 -> high protein bread

> Salt, table 3 g 0,0

> calcium das gesunde plus 1 Serving 7,5

> Quorn wurst de 100 g 102,0

> Onions, raw 90 g 36,0

> Tomatoes, red, ripe, raw, year round average 180 g 32,4

> Squash, zucchini, baby, raw 149 g 31,3

> Carrots, raw 147 g 60,3

> Milk, producer, fluid, 3.7% milkfat 180 g 115,2

> Garlic, raw 5 g 7,4

> Tofu, extra firm, Sunrise 30 g 45,9

> frishkäse no fat 34 g 13,3

> Vegetable oil, canola 3 g 26,5

> Oil, olive, salad or cooking 3 g 26,5

> Carrots, raw 195 g 80,0

> Tomatoes, red, ripe, raw, year round average 150 g 27,0

> Spinach, raw 90 g 20,7

> Spinach, raw 70 g 16,1

> Tofu, extra firm, Sunrise 20 g 30,6

> Garlic, raw 3 g 4,5

> Vegetable oil, canola 3 g 26,5

> Seeds, flaxseed alemao 5 g 18,8

> Oil, olive, salad or cooking 3 g 26,5

> Fish, salmon, Atlantic, farmed, raw 100 g 183,0

> Broccoli, raw 187 g 63,6

>

> ;-)

>