Re: Thoughtful House is appropriately titled

[Guest guest]

WHOA!!! This is a dangerous

statement!!! Please note that I am NOT directing my post below to these

doctors in particular, just the sentiment.

If these rock stars were in

“it” for money they surely would NOT be doing autism.

Umm, let’s see. An all cash

business, no outside controls from insurance companies, thousands and thousands

of begging, pleading parents willing to travel around the world, wait 18 months

for an appt and who adore these people? This is precisely the place for

moneygrubbers! We are the holy grail!!

And surely they could make more money

selling their wares and services to other diseases. Any disease would pay

more.

Most other diseases have controls on them

through insurance, while our disease and treatments are subject to a hell of a

lot less guessing (more than any other – hence the puzzle logo!).

Coupled with the fact that it’s our kids, our babies, this is probably

the most money-making potential of any disease. It’s a recipe for

disaster.

We need to be very careful how we deify

these professionals who work with our kids. Yes, they may be

wonderful. Yes, they may be selfless. But they are also fallible and

if we don’t remember that, then we’re right back where we were when

we blindly trusted our pediatricians with our kids as they injected them with

mercury and smiled.

All I am saying is that these people are

very well paid ($400 an hour is great pay – how much do you make?) to

provide a special service and all you can hope is that they can guess better

than other people based on their experience and that they will put your child’s

best interest above research, money, or anything else. Not all of our “most

beloved” doctors do this, shamefully.

Also, what you might consider wonderful

treatment, might cause the next patient to complain.

Just my 2 cents.

[Guest guest]

Holly, your sediments are very well

stated. While I have only been on this list for a short time, I do note

the hypocrisy of a few things. The double standard I see on this list so

far is the relentless trashing of mainstream medicine, various governmental agencies

and a few not-for profit charities. But it appears that if a question,

concern or opinion is expressed about some of the select individuals who are

held in high esteem on this list, the topic changes to questioning the integrity

of the individual who expressed an opinion. This is wrong.

I see this on so many lists. Personally

I want to hear it all, the good, the bad and the ugly. I see some unfair

and baseless characterizations on this list at times but believe everyone has a

right to express his or her view. The best thing we can do is stick to

the facts and the truth will prevail.

Speak up for reason if NAAR, AS,

CDC, NIH, etc. does something that warrants criticism and accept that others may

take issue with certain individuals that many think are infallible.

As many on this list want mainstream medicine

and certain organizations to be open minded, we all must be as well if we are

to work together to help the community.

Marty

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Holly Bortfeld

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:00

PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Thoughtful

House is appropriately titled

WHOA!!! This is a dangerous

statement!!! Please note that I am NOT directing my post below to these

doctors in particular, just the sentiment.

If these rock stars were in

“it” for money they surely would NOT be doing autism.

Umm, let’s see. An all cash

business, no outside controls from insurance companies, thousands and thousands

of begging, pleading parents willing to travel around the world, wait 18 months

for an appt and who adore these people? This is precisely the place for

moneygrubbers! We are the holy grail!!

And surely they could make more money

selling their wares and services to other diseases. Any disease would pay

more.

Most other diseases have controls on them

through insurance, while our disease and treatments are subject to a hell of a

lot less guessing (more than any other – hence the puzzle logo!).

Coupled with the fact that it’s our kids, our babies, this is probably

the most money-making potential of any disease. It’s a recipe for

disaster.

We need to be very careful how we deify

these professionals who work with our kids. Yes, they may be

wonderful. Yes, they may be selfless. But they are also fallible

and if we don’t remember that, then we’re right back where we were

when we blindly trusted our pediatricians with our kids as they injected them

with mercury and smiled.

All I am saying is that these people are

very well paid ($400 an hour is great pay – how much do you make?) to

provide a special service and all you can hope is that they can guess better

than other people based on their experience and that they will put your

child’s best interest above research, money, or anything else. Not

all of our “most beloved” doctors do this, shamefully.

Also, what you might consider wonderful

treatment, might cause the next patient to complain.

Just my 2 cents.

[Guest guest]

Holly

Wakefield could make a lot more money

just studying regular butts vs. ASD butts.

That is for sure

As far as the $400 per hour (not all of

them make that.) and if they were in regular practice they could see 30-40

patients a day vs. 7.

I wish this stuff was all for free or

covered by health insurance. But until there are some standards and health

insurance coverage it comes out of our hides.

Not that I like that at all but as the

mall map says “YOU ARE HERE.”

I am open to ideas…

Hugs again,

A Jeff's mom

P.S. Still stand by the rock star

statement. My kids would not be where he is without these folks.

From:

EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Holly Bortfeld

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 2:00

PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Thoughtful

House is appropriately titled

WHOA!!! This is a dangerous

statement!!! Please note that I am NOT directing my post below to these

doctors in particular, just the sentiment.

If these rock stars were in

“it” for money they surely would NOT be doing autism.

Umm, let’s see. An all cash

business, no outside controls from insurance companies, thousands and thousands

of begging, pleading parents willing to travel around the world, wait 18 months

for an appt and who adore these people? This is precisely the place for

moneygrubbers! We are the holy grail!!

And surely they could make more money

selling their wares and services to other diseases. Any disease would pay

more.

Most other diseases have controls on them

through insurance, while our disease and treatments are subject to a hell of a

lot less guessing (more than any other – hence the puzzle logo!).

Coupled with the fact that it’s our kids, our babies, this is probably

the most money-making potential of any disease. It’s a recipe for

disaster.

We need to be very careful how we deify

these professionals who work with our kids. Yes, they may be

wonderful. Yes, they may be selfless. But they are also fallible

and if we don’t remember that, then we’re right back where we were

when we blindly trusted our pediatricians with our kids as they injected them

with mercury and smiled.

All I am saying is that these people are

very well paid ($400 an hour is great pay – how much do you make?) to

provide a special service and all you can hope is that they can guess better

than other people based on their experience and that they will put your

child’s best interest above research, money, or anything else. Not

all of our “most beloved” doctors do this, shamefully.

Also, what you might consider wonderful

treatment, might cause the next patient to complain.

Just my 2 cents.

[Guest guest]

Lol yes, but since Andy is not

practicing in the US,

he isn’t making anything from traditional butts. lol But

again, I was NOT referring to him, or Krigsman or anyone in particular from

TH.

I think most ASD specialist docs do make

$400 an hour, and whether they see 1 kid in that hour or 10, the per hour is

still the per hour. I bet it’s easier to see 7 kids in a day than

40. and the per hour rate isn’t cut by Medicaid or insurance.

But that wasn’t my point. I just

think it’s dangerous to put these docs on a pedestal. They are

human. They screw up. They are guessing. And we’ve

already been there, done that. I have no intention of doing it

again. Ask first, verify later, trust after it’s over.

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Ackerman

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:38

PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Thoughtful

House is appropriately titled

Holly

Wakefield could make a lot more money just studying regular butts vs. ASD

butts.

That is for sure

As far as the $400 per hour (not all of

them make that.) and if they were in regular practice they could see 30-40

patients a day vs. 7.

I wish this stuff was all for free or

covered by health insurance. But until there are some standards and health

insurance coverage it comes out of our hides.

Not that I like that at all but as the

mall map says “YOU ARE HERE.”

I am open to ideas…

Hugs again,

A Jeff's mom

P.S. Still stand by the rock star

statement. My kids would not be where he is without these folks.

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Holly Bortfeld

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 2:00

PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Thoughtful

House is appropriately titled

WHOA!!! This is a dangerous

statement!!! Please note that I am NOT directing my post below to these

doctors in particular, just the sentiment.

If these rock stars were in

“it” for money they surely would NOT be doing autism.

Umm, let’s see. An all cash business,

no outside controls from insurance companies, thousands and thousands of

begging, pleading parents willing to travel around the world, wait 18 months

for an appt and who adore these people? This is precisely the place for

moneygrubbers! We are the holy grail!!

And surely they could make more money

selling their wares and services to other diseases. Any disease would pay

more.

Most other diseases have controls on them

through insurance, while our disease and treatments are subject to a hell of a

lot less guessing (more than any other – hence the puzzle logo!).

Coupled with the fact that it’s our kids, our babies, this is probably

the most money-making potential of any disease. It’s a recipe for

disaster.

We need to be very careful how we deify

these professionals who work with our kids. Yes, they may be

wonderful. Yes, they may be selfless. But they are also fallible

and if we don’t remember that, then we’re right back where we were

when we blindly trusted our pediatricians with our kids as they injected them

with mercury and smiled.

All I am saying is that these people are

very well paid ($400 an hour is great pay – how much do you make?) to

provide a special service and all you can hope is that they can guess better

than other people based on their experience and that they will put your

child’s best interest above research, money, or anything else. Not

all of our “most beloved” doctors do this, shamefully.

Also, what you might consider wonderful

treatment, might cause the next patient to complain.

Just my 2 cents.

[Guest guest]

Totally agreed. Points are well

taken.

Still like these guys over Duran Duran

& Psychedelic Furs though…

From:

EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Holly Bortfeld

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 2:47

PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Thoughtful

House is appropriately titled

Lol yes, but since Andy is not

practicing in the US, he isn’t making anything from traditional

butts. lol But again, I was NOT referring to him, or Krigsman or

anyone in particular from TH.

I think most ASD specialist docs do make

$400 an hour, and whether they see 1 kid in that hour or 10, the per hour is

still the per hour. I bet it’s easier to see 7 kids in a day than

40. and the per hour rate isn’t cut by Medicaid or insurance.

But that wasn’t my point. I

just think it’s dangerous to put these docs on a pedestal. They are

human. They screw up. They are guessing. And we’ve

already been there, done that. I have no intention of doing it

again. Ask first, verify later, trust after it’s over.

From:

EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Ackerman

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 5:38

PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Thoughtful

House is appropriately titled

Holly

Wakefield could make a lot more money

just studying regular butts vs. ASD butts.

That is for sure

As far as the $400 per hour (not all of them

make that.) and if they were in regular practice they could see 30-40 patients

a day vs. 7.

I wish this stuff was all for free or

covered by health insurance. But until there are some standards and health

insurance coverage it comes out of our hides.

Not that I like that at all but as the

mall map says “YOU ARE HERE.”

I am open to ideas…

Hugs again,

A Jeff's mom

P.S. Still stand by the rock star

statement. My kids would not be where he is without these folks.

From:

EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Holly Bortfeld

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 2:00

PM

EOHarm

Subject: RE: Thoughtful

House is appropriately titled

WHOA!!! This is a dangerous

statement!!! Please note that I am NOT directing my post below to these

doctors in particular, just the sentiment.

If these rock stars were in

“it” for money they surely would NOT be doing autism.

Umm, let’s see. An all cash

business, no outside controls from insurance companies, thousands and thousands

of begging, pleading parents willing to travel around the world, wait 18 months

for an appt and who adore these people? This is precisely the place for

moneygrubbers! We are the holy grail!!

And surely they could make more money

selling their wares and services to other diseases. Any disease would pay

more.

Most other diseases have controls on them

through insurance, while our disease and treatments are subject to a hell of a

lot less guessing (more than any other – hence the puzzle logo!).

Coupled with the fact that it’s our kids, our babies, this is probably

the most money-making potential of any disease. It’s a recipe for

disaster.

We need to be very careful how we deify these

professionals who work with our kids. Yes, they may be wonderful.

Yes, they may be selfless. But they are also fallible and if we

don’t remember that, then we’re right back where we were when we

blindly trusted our pediatricians with our kids as they injected them with

mercury and smiled.

All I am saying is that these people are

very well paid ($400 an hour is great pay – how much do you make?) to

provide a special service and all you can hope is that they can guess better

than other people based on their experience and that they will put your

child’s best interest above research, money, or anything else. Not

all of our “most beloved” doctors do this, shamefully.

Also, what you might consider wonderful

treatment, might cause the next patient to complain.

Just my 2 cents.

[Guest guest]

Marty,

COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SAID BETTER! EVERYONE PLEASE READ Marty's e-mail

AGAIN As another friend of mine says " you articulate very well " Is

TH for non-profit? If so...do they have to show where money is

going?

Marisha

Holly, your sediments are very well stated. While I have only been

on this list for a short time, I do note the hypocrisy of a few

things. The double standard I see on this list so far is the

relentless trashing of mainstream medicine, various governmental

agencies and a few not-for profit charities. But it appears that if

a question, concern or opinion is expressed about some of the select

individuals who are held in high esteem on this list, the topic

changes to questioning the integrity of the individual who expressed

an opinion. This is wrong.

I see this on so many lists. Personally I want to hear it all, the

good,the bad and the ugly. I see some unfair and baseless

characterizations on this list at times but believe everyone has a

right to express his or her view. The best thing we can do is stick

to the facts and the truth will prevail.

Speak up for reason if NAAR, AS, CDC, NIH, etc. does something that

warrants criticism and accept that others may take issue with

certain individuals that many think are infallible.

As many on this list want mainstream medicine and certain

oranizations to be open minded, we all must be as well if we are to

work together to help the community.

Marty

[Guest guest]

on 3/26/06 5:22 PM, Marty at martyx2@... wrote:

Holly, your sediments are very well stated. While I have only been on this list for a short time, I do note the hypocrisy of a few things.

Marty,

Being that you are new on this list let me explain a few things.... you might not know this- but this group was started by biomedical people, who read and support

Evidence of Harm and the people involved with it.

In general, most of us don't agree with NAAR, AS, CDC, etc.

Honestly, if you don't like when we voice our opinions and experiences....

then please consider removing yourself from this list.

We don't censor emails or people unless they break the rules (unlike other lists you moderate personally). Lenny (the first moderator of EOH) allows people to vent and talk and show their displeasure. As long as they don't attack other list members personally and follow the rules.

We have a right to get support from people we consider friends- and some family- actually we are a family.... we have done things very few groups have ever done.

You can't join a biomed group and then slam people for supporting their own. Would I join a NY METS group and talk about how they suck, or how the Yankees rule (which they do btw)?

As a vegetarian would I join a STEAK LOVERS group and question the members and say they are wrong in eating meat?

You say " stick to the facts " well the facts are- TRUTH IS PERSPECTIVE... all there is is opinion in this world. And on this list we tell our opinions. But, you can't expect members to not support others in the biomed community. It's ok to ask questions- but don't be surprised that some will support Wakefield or Krigsman or even Kirby himself. It's the fregging EOH group for god's sake! If you can't stand the heat- then get out of the biomedical kitchen.

[Guest guest]

thank you for the history of the

list but unfortunately you and I as always see things from an entirely

different perspective. You clearly missed the point of my e-mail. In

any event, so I don’t bore the list with a further response to the

personal vendetta you have had for me for quite sometime, I will just move onto

the next topic.

Marty

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of christine zichittella-heeren

Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 8:55

PM

EOHarm

Subject: Re: Thoughtful

House is appropriately titled

on 3/26/06 5:22 PM, Marty at martyx2@... wrote:

Holly, your sediments are very well

stated. While I have only been on this list for a short time, I do note

the hypocrisy of a few things.

Marty,

Being that you are new on this list let me explain a

few things.... you might not know this- but this group was started by

biomedical people, who read and support

Evidence of Harm and the people involved with it.

In general, most of us don't agree with NAAR,

AS, CDC, etc.

Honestly, if you don't like when we voice our opinions and experiences....

then please consider removing yourself from this list.

We don't censor emails or people unless they break the rules (unlike other

lists you moderate personally). Lenny (the first moderator of EOH) allows

people to vent and talk and show their displeasure. As long as they don't

attack other list members personally and follow the rules.

We have a right to get support from people we consider friends- and some

family- actually we are a family.... we have done things very few groups

have ever done.

You can't join a biomed group and then slam people for supporting their own.

Would I join a NY METS group and talk about how they suck, or how

the Yankees rule (which they do btw)?

As a vegetarian would I join a STEAK LOVERS group and question the

members and say they are wrong in eating meat?

You say " stick to the facts " well the facts are- TRUTH IS

PERSPECTIVE... all there is is opinion in this world. And on this list we

tell our opinions. But, you can't expect members to not support

others in the biomed community. It's ok to ask questions- but don't be

surprised that some will support Wakefield

or Krigsman or even Kirby himself. It's the fregging EOH group for

god's sake! If you can't stand the heat- then get out of the biomedical

kitchen.

[Guest guest]

Since you say we can " voice our opinions " here do you mean:

A) Only when you approve of them ?

We can voice ours...but better like yours ?

I am getting confused. This message sounds like someone getting

their panties in a wad.

Marisha

" Problems are the price you pay for progress "

P.S. Sorry Marty my e-mail got you " a detention " I just didn't know

the rules...I was not suppose to " like " what you said.

Holly, your sediments are very well stated. While I have only been

on this list for a short time, I do note the hypocrisy of a few

things.

Marty,

Being that you are new on this list let me explain a few things....

you might not know this- but this group was started by biomedical

people, who read and support Evidence of Harm and the people

involved with it.

In general, most of us don't agree with NAAR, AS, CDC, etc.

Honestly, if you don't like when we voice our opinions and

experiences....

then please consider removing yourself from this list.

We don't censor emails or people unless they break the rules (unlike

other lists you moderate personally). Lenny (the first moderator of

EOH) allows people to vent and talk and show their displeasure. As

long as they don't attack other list members personally and follow

the rules.

We have a right to get support from people we consider friends- and

some family- actually we are a family.... we have done things very

few groups have ever done.

You can't join a biomed group and then slam people for supporting

their own.Would I join a NY METS group and talk about how they

suck, or how the Yankees rule (which they do btw)?

As a vegetarian would I join a STEAK LOVERS group and question

the members and say they are wrong in eating meat?

You say " stick to the facts " well the facts are- TRUTH IS

PERSPECTIVE...all there is is opinion in this world. And on this

list we tell our opinions. But, you can't expect members to not

support others in the biomed community. It's ok to ask questions-

but don't be surprised that some will support Wakefield or Krigsman

or even Kirby himself. It's the fregging EOH group for god's

sake! If you can't stand the heat- then get out of the biomedical

kitchen.

[Guest guest]

on 3/26/06 9:13 PM, Marty at martyx2@... wrote:

thank you for the history of the list but unfortunately you and I as always see things from an entirely different perspective. You clearly missed the point of my e-mail. In any event, so I don¹t bore the list with a further response to the personal vendetta you have had for me for quite sometime, I will just move onto the next topic.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

i'm bored with NAAR people and anti-biomed people joining this list and starting fights- no matter who they are.

If you are going to join this team- you better be prepared to play.

If you put shit out there- you better get ready to defend yourself. That goes for anyone.

And don't be freggin surprised that people will defend Wakefield- it's insulting.

You can say shit about me all day- I don't care. I know who I am and what I stand for- as do many of the people on this list. my big vendetta? I asked Marty to tell me how NAAR has helped my son and he refused to answer and banned me from posting on the NY list. That's about it. Hey- i'd rather get things done then argue anyway.

what's the line of the week? " and that's all i'm going to say about that topic "

[Guest guest]

Yes, not for profits have plenty of disclosure rules to follow. They

have to fill out a tax form called a 990 each year which asks for a

massive amount of info including how much various staff members are

paid, who donated and how much, etc., etc. This form is supposed to

be available on request.

They are also required to have a yearly audit, unless they are

really, really small. I can't remember where the bar is set, but I'm

sure that TH is large enough to require an audit. This audit should

also be available to anyone who requests it.

Deborah

>

> Marty,

>

> COULD NOT HAVE BEEN SAID BETTER! EVERYONE PLEASE READ Marty's e-

mail

> AGAIN As another friend of mine says " you articulate very well "

Is

> TH for non-profit? If so...do they have to show where money is

> going?

>

> Marisha

>

>

[Guest guest]

" If you are going to join this team- you better be prepared to play. "

" I'm bored with anti-biomed people joining this list "

Not sure who you calling anti-biomed people… I'm ready to " play "

Yasko's methylation charts ANY DAY

Bring it on…

" If you put shit out there- you better get ready to defend

yourself. That goes for anyone. And don't be freggin surprised that

people will defend Wakefield- it's insulting. "

Just to set the record straight because I am sure all this will get

back to TH. I said NOTHING NEGATIVE about Dr. McDreamy

Marisha

thank you for the history of the list but unfortunately

you and I as always see things from an entirely different

perspective. You clearly missed the point of my e-mail. In any

event, so I don¹t bore the list with a further response to the

personal vendetta you have had for me for quite sometime, I will

just move onto the next topic.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

i'm bored with NAAR people and anti-biomed people joining this list

and starting fights- no matter who they are.

If you are going to join this team- you better be prepared to play.

If you put shit out there- you better get ready to defend yourself.

That goes for anyone. And don't be freggin surprised that people

will defend Wakefield- it's insulting.

You can say shit about me all day- I don't care. I know who I am

and what I stand for- as do many of the people on this list. my

big vendetta? I asked Marty to tell me how NAAR has helped my son

and he refused to answer and banned me from posting on the NY list.

That's about it. Hey- i'd rather get things done then argue anyway.

what's the line of the week? " and that's all i'm going to say

about that

topic "