Re: Less protein gives longer life

[Guest guest]

Not to argue the RDA.

Reviewing the Nitrogen balance idea, I find a lot of data to support a

higher level than we might see in fly tests.

MNHD page 651, states

" When the results of N balance studies that included many levels of dietary

protein are analyzed and the lowest intake at which N equilibrium occurs is

interpolated, the average daily intake of high quality protein (0.6 gm/kg)

is substantially more than indicated from obligatory N loss (0.34 gm/kg). "

That obligatory N is about 5% of a 1800 kcal diet.

That might be enough for a human sitting on a sponge filled with nutrients.

Probably billions of dollars have been spent to determine protein req'ts

accurately.

Another site is the WHO: (In addition to the IOM).

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/AA040E/AA040E06.htm

Note Table 16. Summary of results of representative short-term N-balance

studies in healthy young men

and

Table 17. Summary of longer-term balance studies in young men receiving low

and constant intakes of good-quality protein

Egg: 0.59 g/kg per day, 6 subjs, 81 - 89 days, 4 subjects in negative N

balance. Body composition changes. (23)

{23. Gersovitz, M. et al. Metabolism, 29: 1075-1086 (1980). }

Didn't find that one but I found this one:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/35/1/6

" Three of seven males and four of eight females were not in body N balance

during the final 5 days of the 30-day period. These N balance data indicate

that 0.8 g egg protein kg-1 day-1 is not sufficient to achieve N equilibrium

in a majority of subjects older than 70 yr and confirm the results and

conclusions of a previous, short-term N balance study (Uauy et al., Am J

Clin Nutr 1978;31:779-85). Hence, where energy intake approximates

requirement, the current Recommended Dietary Allowance is not adequate for a

majority of male and female subjects age 70 yr and above. "

That was before they raised the RDAs.

That says it all for me.

Regards

Re: [ ] Re: Less protein gives longer life

Perhaps the best way to look at this would be to make sure that we hit

the RDA of protein, including the recommended intake of the essential

amino acids. This is an absolute number, not a percentage. The NAS

recommends .8g/kg based on Ideal Body Weight. This is so we do not

inflate the number up for someone who has excess weight due to excess

fat.

It has been theorized that since some plant proteins are not as highly

rated in utilization, than increasing this number 10% could account

for the difference. So, as a health CRON diet would typically include

more plants than a typical american diet, increasing this number 10%,

might have some rationale. But, on the other hand, advanced kidney

patients survive on a diet that is based on .4 to .5g/kg and as can

maintain muscle mass and strength at the intake.

Many of the healthy lower fat diets easily meet the protein and EAA

requirements with a protein range of 10-15%, depending on the calorie

level. I am not sure of the benefit of increasing protein above and

beyond the recommended amount if essential amino acids levels have

been met.

Like with fats, once the need for essential fats have been assured, I

do not know of a benefit to excess fats.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Here's a chart similar to the one I was thinking of:

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10490 & page=637

Not quite 224 but you can see the skewness.

From 25 to 110 grams for 150#er.

Regards

[ ] Re: Less protein gives longer life

Your assertion that some people need 224 grams of protein per day isnot believable for a healthy individual. Can you provide a referencefor this number? Do you refer to individuals suffering from somespecific disease, perhaps? (you didn't mention)Thanks,-Dave>> No error, but most people who claim to be vegetarians are not vegans.> They eat some animal, ie, milk products and/or eggs.> I never met a vegan in person.> We've never read of a vegan centenarian.> > The ratio has nothing to do with the food, rather the % protein in the> calories we eat.> If we actually need 70 grams for a 150# person, and we don't get 70grams,> we lose weight even of the calories are increased. We shed somesamll amount> of protein each day and the small amount we eat is just make up forthat not> conserved. Called the nitrogen balance method on page 41 of ModernNutrition> 1999.> > There are other factors - humans vary individually in the amount ofprotein> needed, some as high as 224.> It has been said that healthy adults need only 24 grams, but thenumber is> tripled assuming the 24 is one sigma.

..

[Guest guest]

Interesting. Is there some lifestyle or physical condition

explanation given for those 2-4 outlying cases at the high end?

-Dave

> >

> > No error, but most people who claim to be vegetarians are not

vegans.

> > They eat some animal, ie, milk products and/or eggs.

> > I never met a vegan in person.

> > We've never read of a vegan centenarian.

> >

> > The ratio has nothing to do with the food, rather the % protein

in the

> > calories we eat.

> > If we actually need 70 grams for a 150# person, and we don't get 70

> grams,

> > we lose weight even of the calories are increased. We shed some

> samll amount

> > of protein each day and the small amount we eat is just make up for

> that not

> > conserved. Called the nitrogen balance method on page 41 of Modern

> Nutrition

> > 1999.

> >

> > There are other factors - humans vary individually in the amount of

> protein

> > needed, some as high as 224.

> > It has been said that healthy adults need only 24 grams, but the

> number is

> > tripled assuming the 24 is one sigma.

>

> .

>

[Guest guest]

--- In , deborah brown <jethrofifi@...>

wrote:

>

> Hello,

> I'm wondering what a diet constructed according to this

undertanding would look like. That is, what would we eat on a daily

basis that would keep protein low enough?

> Deb

>

> Hi Deb,

There is a book titled " The 80-10-10 Diet " that gives meal plans that

seem to average approximately 7% of total calories from protein daily.

The vast majority of the calories come from fresh fruit. Most of the

remaining food consists of leafy green vegetables, and the " vegetable-

fruits " , such as tomatoes, cucumbers and bell peppers

bb

>

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

______________

> Looking for last minute shopping deals?

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>

[Guest guest]

> There is a book titled " The 80-10-10 Diet " that gives meal plans that

> seem to average approximately 7% of total calories from protein daily.

> The vast majority of the calories come from fresh fruit. Most of the

> remaining food consists of leafy green vegetables, and the " vegetable-

> fruits " , such as tomatoes, cucumbers and bell peppers

>

While such a diet would be low in protein (and possibly too low if

someone was following CRON), have you analyzed such a diet into CRON-O-

Meter (or other such program) to see its nutritional adequacy??

Macronutrients are only one issue, regardless of the macronutrient

ratio's one is trying to achieve.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

We have had several previous discussions about this. Go to our home page

and search our archives for discussions of foods with high and low

methionine. Use the search word " methionine " .

You can also google the words " foods high in methionine " . Everything's on

the web.

_______________

Hello,

I'm wondering what a diet constructed according to this undertanding would

look like. That is, what would we eat on a daily basis that would keep

protein lowenough?

Deb