Re: Made The Best Soup I Ever Ate!

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill:

Based on a very brief analysis of a few foods and a few nutrients, heat doesn't destroy much of the nutrients. Comparing the vitamins in the same number of calories of the raw food and the same cooked food seems to show on average about 10% lower vitamins, for example. Obviously the presence of 'minerals' will not be changed by anything short of a nuclear detonation. Although they may be made more or less absorbable by heating.

Second, where are the data for V8 juice obtained? If from testing the juice, then the data shown are what the juice contains. If from testing the raw materials before they are converted into V8 juice, then you may not get the same answer as if you tested the juice. I assume it is the juice that is tested. But I do not know that.

Rodney.

> > > >> > > > So, what could we add to get it up to 100% vitamins and 100% > > > minerals?> > > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Rodney:

It's not clear to me that sodium is not a culprit for increased cancer

risk. See the study below on the relation of sodium concentration to

cancer. Plus, I'm not sure how valid it is to find chlorine-bearing

compounds that may cause cancer as implicating chlorine. We might do

the same with sodium (e.g. sodium nitrite)?

Potassium, sodium, and cancer: a review.

Jansson B.

Department of Biomathematics, University of Texas M.D. Cancer

Center, Houston 77030, USA.

Agents known or believed to be carcinogenic decrease the concentration

of potassium and increase the concentration of sodium in the cells.

Anticarcinogenic agents have the opposite effect. In all cases where

we have information on an agent's carcinogenicity or

anticarcinogenicity and on that agent's effects on cellular potassium

and sodium concentrations the above relationships have been found to

be true. Dietary carcinogenic agents studied include sodium, cadmium,

fat, cholesterol, calories, and alcohol; dietary anticarcinogenic

agents include potassium, vitamins A, C, and D, selenium, and fiber.

The effect of calcium intake is less clear as that effect depends on

the concentrations on sodium and potassium. Not only dietary agents

but also other carcinogenic and anticarcinogenic agents work in the

same way. The cancer-causing drug dimethylhydrazine increases sodium

and decreases potassium in the cells, whereas, for example,

indomethacin, an anticarcinogen, has the opposite effect. In aging

potassium leaves the cells, sodium enters them, and the rates of

cancer increase. Patients with hyperkalemic diseases (Parkinson,

) have reduced cancer rates, and patients with hypokalemic

diseases (alcoholism, obesity, stress) have increased cancer rates.

PMID: 9216787 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Last night I made the best soup that I ever ate and I

> > can't

> > > cook.

> > > > This

> > > > > > > soup is a slight modification that was listed in message

> > > #2761.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1 head green cabbage (medium head)

> > > > > > > 1 64 oz. container V8 juice (low sodium)

> > > > > > > 1 14 oz. can diced tomatoes (no salt added)

> > > > > > > 1/2 cup of raisins

> > > > > > > 1 cup Splenda

> > > > > > > 2 tablespoons lemon juice

> > > > > > > 1 16oz. jar salsa

> > > > > > > 3 tablespoons olive oil

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > These ingredients come to about 1400 calories for a huge

> > pot

> > > of

> > > > soup. I

> > > > > > > had a bowl for breakfast and I was amazed at the flavor.

> I

> > am

> > > a 65

> > > > year

> > > > > > > old who has no cooking experience; so I figure this is a

> > can't

> > > > miss

> > > > > > > recipe. It took about 30 minutes for the cabbage to get

> > > tender and

> > > > then

> > > > > > > I added the Splenda and lemon juice.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Dave:

Thank you for that very interesting paper on a topic which is new to me.

Are we aware of a lot of substances containing sodium that are known carcinogens? That research does not demonstrate causation. It does not show that increased amounts of sodium in the diet, or from other sources, increase cancer incidence. It might be considered as likely that the cancer and the raised blood sodium were two results of some other single cause, or perhaps that cancer causes the retention of sodium, instead of sodium causing cancer.

Nevertheless, this is a helpful new perspective that has alerted me, at least, to the possibility that excessive sodium may be a problem for cancer. That prospect is rather alarming in a way, because sodium is also a major essential nutrient.

I noticed that my blood sodium is in the higher half of the reference range, and my potassium in the lower half. Would anyone else care to share the approximate locations of their blood potassium and sodium levels, please? Perhaps this is, like so much else, a function of restriction?

Rodney.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Last night I made the best soup that I ever ate and I> > > can't> > > > cook.> > > > > This> > > > > > > > soup is a slight modification that was listed in message> > > > #2761.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > 1 head green cabbage (medium head)> > > > > > > > 1 64 oz. container V8 juice (low sodium)> > > > > > > > 1 14 oz. can diced tomatoes (no salt added)> > > > > > > > 1/2 cup of raisins> > > > > > > > 1 cup Splenda> > > > > > > > 2 tablespoons lemon juice> > > > > > > > 1 16oz. jar salsa> > > > > > > > 3 tablespoons olive oil> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > These ingredients come to about 1400 calories for a huge> > > pot> > > > of> > > > > soup. I> > > > > > > > had a bowl for breakfast and I was amazed at the flavor.> > I> > > am> > > > a 65> > > > > year> > > > > > > > old who has no cooking experience; so I figure this is a> > > can't> > > > > miss> > > > > > > > recipe. It took about 30 minutes for the cabbage to get> > > > tender and> > > > > then> > > > > > > > I added the Splenda and lemon juice.> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

The reference range here for sodium is 135 - 145 mmol/L

My most recent number was 143, nearer the top than the bottom.

For potassium the reference range is: 3·3 - 5·1 mmol/L

Mine is 3·6, closer to the low end.

My doctor thinks that so long as they are within the ranges it doesn't matter where.

It makes me curious about what causes the numbers to be at the higher or lower ends of the ranges. And whether being at one end of the ranges is better than at the other.

Rodney.

>> Tightly controlled normally.> Mine has been for 16yrs:> > range> average> high> low> > sodium> 135-148> 142.0> 145.0> 139.0> > potassium> 3.5-5.3 mmo/l> 4.5> 5.5> 4.1> > > > [ ] Re: Made The Best Soup I Ever Ate!> > > > Hi Dave:> > Thank you for that very interesting paper on a topic which is new to me.> > Are we aware of a lot of substances containing sodium that are known carcinogens? That research does not demonstrate causation. It does not show that increased amounts of sodium in the diet, or from other sources, increase cancer incidence. It might be considered as likely that the cancer and the raised blood sodium were two results of some other single cause, or perhaps that cancer causes the retention of sodium, instead of sodium causing cancer.> > Nevertheless, this is a helpful new perspective that has alerted me, at least, to the possibility that excessive sodium may be a problem for cancer. That prospect is rather alarming in a way, because sodium is also a major essential nutrient.> > I noticed that my blood sodium is in the higher half of the reference range, and my potassium in the lower half. Would anyone else care to share the approximate locations of their blood potassium and sodium levels, please? Perhaps this is, like so much else, a function of restriction?> > Rodney.> > > .>

[Guest guest]

Micro managing such things is questionable (IMO). They provide a range to allow for day to day variations in testing and variance between individuals. Being high or low in a range may be indicative of diet or behavior, or just personal genetics.I've mentioned ad nauseum my low sodium problems and supplementation, so being within the range and on the low end was a relief but not surprise, and I try not to read to much into such things. This blood panel was my first in about 10 years in my attempt to diagnose some vague symptoms.The DR who reviewed my panel, dismissed the few numbers that fell outside the nominal ranges, and I notice a number of the ranges have changed since my last blood panel years ago. I wonder if these ranges are reflective of a general population which IMO is not eating healthier, drug company influences (we have drugs for that now, lets tweak the cholesterol or blood glucose ranges to sell more), or valid scientific knowledge advancing.   I hate to be so distrustful of the health industry, but so much research is paid for by the drug companies, how could that not have an impact on the results. At a minimum it influences what is researched, certainly not vitamins or un-protectable drugs.JROn Mar 7, 2008, at 10:41 AM, Rodney wrote:Hi folks:The reference range here for sodium is 135 - 145 mmol/LMy most recent number was 143, nearer the top than the bottom.For potassium the reference range is: 3·3 - 5·1 mmol/LMine is 3·6, closer to the low end.My doctor thinks that so long as they are within the ranges it doesn't matter where.It makes me curious about what causes the numbers to be at the higher or lower ends of the ranges.  And whether being at one end of the ranges is better than at the other.Rodney.>> Tightly controlled normally.> Mine has been for 16yrs:> > range> average> high> low> > sodium> 135-148> 142.0> 145.0> 139.0> > potassium> 3.5-5.3 mmo/l> 4.5> 5.5> 4.1> > > > [ ] Re: Made The Best Soup I Ever Ate!> > > > Hi Dave:> > Thank you for that very interesting paper on a topic which is new to me.> > Are we aware of a lot of substances containing sodium that are known carcinogens? That research does not demonstrate causation. It does not show that increased amounts of sodium in the diet, or from other sources, increase cancer incidence. It might be considered as likely that the cancer and the raised blood sodium were two results of some other single cause, or perhaps that cancer causes the retention of sodium, instead of sodium causing cancer.> > Nevertheless, this is a helpful new perspective that has alerted me, at least, to the possibility that excessive sodium may be a problem for cancer. That prospect is rather alarming in a way, because sodium is also a major essential nutrient.> > I noticed that my blood sodium is in the higher half of the reference range, and my potassium in the lower half. Would anyone else care to share the approximate locations of their blood potassium and sodium levels, please? Perhaps this is, like so much else, a function of restriction?> > Rodney.> > > .>

[Guest guest]

Tightly controlled normally.

Mine has been for 16yrs:

range

average

high

low

sodium

135-148

142.0

145.0

139.0

potassium

3.5-5.3 mmo/l

4.5

5.5

4.1

[ ] Re: Made The Best Soup I Ever Ate!

Hi Dave:

Thank you for that very interesting paper on a topic which is new to me.

Are we aware of a lot of substances containing sodium that are known carcinogens? That research does not demonstrate causation. It does not show that increased amounts of sodium in the diet, or from other sources, increase cancer incidence. It might be considered as likely that the cancer and the raised blood sodium were two results of some other single cause, or perhaps that cancer causes the retention of sodium, instead of sodium causing cancer.

Nevertheless, this is a helpful new perspective that has alerted me, at least, to the possibility that excessive sodium may be a problem for cancer. That prospect is rather alarming in a way, because sodium is also a major essential nutrient.

I noticed that my blood sodium is in the higher half of the reference range, and my potassium in the lower half. Would anyone else care to share the approximate locations of their blood potassium and sodium levels, please? Perhaps this is, like so much else, a function of restriction?

Rodney.

..

[Guest guest]

[ ] Re: Made The Best Soup I Ever Ate!

Hi folks:

The reference range here for sodium is 135 - 145 mmol/L

My most recent number was 143, nearer the top than the bottom.

For potassium the reference range is: 3·3 - 5·1 mmol/L

Mine is 3·6, closer to the low end.

My doctor thinks that so long as they are within the ranges it doesn't

matter where.

It makes me curious about what causes the numbers to be at the higher or

lower ends of the ranges. And whether being at one end of the ranges is

better than at the other.

Rodney.

One thing is mine were always fasted.

The times I've had something out of a range, the doc got the range changed

or rerun the test.

Generally my blood parameters have told me nothing, except for PSA which

told me I had BPH, not cancer.

So I think symptoms are more important, however, I would classify BP and BG

as symptoms because I can measure those at home often. These others are

measured once a year, maybe 6 months.

We went thru a bout for a year on my wife's lipids and finally decidced they

couldn't measure it accurately, a fact confirmed by the mfgr of the machine.

So at least, I put no faith in variations within the range. When you

consider we do CR and have no CR ranges, and some do low sodium or different

diets, I see places for lotsa errors, unless we can measure the parameter

each day with the same device.

Regards

[Guest guest]

I too don't know for certain how they arrive at the nutrient content

for V8 but suspect it's calculated on the basis of its original

individual nutrient constituents. Otherwise, who would test it

directly? The manufacturer? If they did I would be a little suspicious

of the data.

I suspect it's mostly tomato juice, and very little 'greens'. As

someone else noted just a tad of greens makes the end product a

completely different color than V8. Also, i suspect the least

expensive ingredients are favored. Just a tad of the more expensive

ingredients is enough to allow them to claim it as an ingredient even

if it isn't enough to make a significant nutrient impact.

Then there is the question of oxidation and degradation in storage.

And what kind of heat is generated in the processing? Great heat at

the surface of high-speed blades has been suggested elsewhere as a

potential cause of nutrient loss. Although I haven't seen hard proof

of this.

But even nutrient loss from high-speed cleaving notwithstanding,

nutrient loss due to storage is a proven issue. We know that fresh

INTACT vegetables quickly lose their nutrients over time. One of the

reasons frozen vegetables have been touted as possibly better

alternative to fresh. And this is in intact vegetables, juicing

greatly increases the surface area and, therefore, the micronutrients

to further oxidation etc.

Rodney says no more than 10%. Rodney I find this hard to believe on

its face. Do you have any evidence for this figure?

I like V8 but I have questions as to its true nutritive value.

Afterall we want the best nutritive bang for the caloric buck.

bill4cr

> > > >

> > > > Last night I made the best soup that I ever ate and I can't cook.

> This

> > > > soup is a slight modification that was listed in message #2761.

> > > >

> > > > 1 head green cabbage (medium head)

> > > > 1 64 oz. container V8 juice (low sodium)

> > > > 1 14 oz. can diced tomatoes (no salt added)

> > > > 1/2 cup of raisins

> > > > 1 cup Splenda

> > > > 2 tablespoons lemon juice

> > > > 1 16oz. jar salsa

> > > > 3 tablespoons olive oil

> > > >

> > > > These ingredients come to about 1400 calories for a huge pot of

> soup. I

> > > > had a bowl for breakfast and I was amazed at the flavor. I am a 65

> year

> > > > old who has no cooking experience; so I figure this is a can't

> miss

> > > > recipe. It took about 30 minutes for the cabbage to get tender and

> then

> > > > I added the Splenda and lemon juice.

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Bill:

It would be helpful, imo, if you refrained from mis-characterizing the contents of a post here, then question it and follow that up by making sure the part you mis-characterize is not reproduced with your post, hoping perhaps that it will not be pointed out?

You claim I said: "Rodney says no more than 10%."

In fact what I actually said, cut and pasted, was:

"Comparing the vitamins in the same number of calories of the raw food and the same cooked food seems to show on average about 10% lower vitamins, for example."

There is a difference between an AVERAGE of about 10% and "no more than 10%", because an average, as presumably you realize, will usually contain about the same number of observations above it (10% in this case) as below it.

And that ~10% factor applies to what I found for vitamins. It is completely clear that in the case of what are generally termed 'minerals ' there will be no change in mineral content no matter how long it is cooked, by what method it is cooked, nor at what temperature.

Also worth noting is that cooking is known sometimes to increase the availability of some healthy nutrients. Tomatoes are famous for this, which has been posted here many times. I do not recall tomatoes as being among the foods I checked fifteen years ago.

You ask also about the evidence for this. No evidence is necessary as regards minerals. As for vitamins I explained how I had come to that conclusion.

In a little more detail, about fifteeen years ago, before nutrient data could readily be found on the internet, I took the data from Bowes and Church's for about a dozen foods for which data were available both raw and cooked. I took three well known vitamins and calculated the difference in vitamin content per hundred calories between the raw and cooked food for each vitamin in each food. Then I took the averages. In round numbers those data showed about ten percent less of the vitamins in the cooked food.

I also, incidentally, did similar calculations for vitamins in frozen foods, where such data were also available, and to my surprise found a significant decline (but smaller, IIRC, than for cooked foods) in the vitamins in them also.

Rodney.

> > > > >> > > > > Last night I made the best soup that I ever ate and I can't cook.> > This> > > > > soup is a slight modification that was listed in message #2761.> > > > >> > > > > 1 head green cabbage (medium head)> > > > > 1 64 oz. container V8 juice (low sodium)> > > > > 1 14 oz. can diced tomatoes (no salt added)> > > > > 1/2 cup of raisins> > > > > 1 cup Splenda> > > > > 2 tablespoons lemon juice> > > > > 1 16oz. jar salsa> > > > > 3 tablespoons olive oil> > > > >> > > > > These ingredients come to about 1400 calories for a huge pot of> > soup. I> > > > > had a bowl for breakfast and I was amazed at the flavor. I am a 65> > year> > > > > old who has no cooking experience; so I figure this is a can't> > miss> > > > > recipe. It took about 30 minutes for the cabbage to get tender and> > then> > > > > I added the Splenda and lemon juice.> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

My apologies to you Rodney, Francesca and the list. I looked for your

actual comment, couldn't locate it, became frustrated and posted what

I thought you said. Sorry.

I've been here for awhile and have never knowingly misrepresented

anyone. I certainly don't do so to make a point at the expense of the

truth or the facts.

I've been doing a bit of reading on PubMed and finding that STORAGE

can have a profound effect on the level of certain compounds and

vitamins. Minerals seem to be fairly stable. For instance finely

shredded vegetables showed a marked decline of glucosinolate level

with post-shredding dwell time - up to 75% over 6h. If shredding

causes such a marked loss can you imagine what blending or liquifying

does? Again, amount of loss is nutrient specific.

Heat and method of preparation of the vegetable also variably

influences levels, some are enhanced others degraded.

Again, in reading I'm finding a great variability in the way nutrients

react to heat, light and storage. I have to wonder how V8, and all

the other new fruit and vegetable blends, is processed and how long it

is stored and under what conditions.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Last night I made the best soup that I ever ate and I can't

> cook.

> > > This

> > > > > > soup is a slight modification that was listed in message

> #2761.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1 head green cabbage (medium head)

> > > > > > 1 64 oz. container V8 juice (low sodium)

> > > > > > 1 14 oz. can diced tomatoes (no salt added)

> > > > > > 1/2 cup of raisins

> > > > > > 1 cup Splenda

> > > > > > 2 tablespoons lemon juice

> > > > > > 1 16oz. jar salsa

> > > > > > 3 tablespoons olive oil

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These ingredients come to about 1400 calories for a huge pot

> of

> > > soup. I

> > > > > > had a bowl for breakfast and I was amazed at the flavor. I am

> a 65

> > > year

> > > > > > old who has no cooking experience; so I figure this is a can't

> > > miss

> > > > > > recipe. It took about 30 minutes for the cabbage to get tender

> and

> > > then

> > > > > > I added the Splenda and lemon juice.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>