Re: Re: Macronutrient Ratios.. Enough protein?

[Guest guest]

I've offered this opinion before, IMO macro-nutrient ratios are similar to BMI. Used because  the math is convenient but not really comprehensive. The widespread use infers a significance it may not deserve.For example food has at least two functions. Fuel for energy and raw materialfor repairs, growth, whatever. Macro ratios for fuel use is probably secondary to the energy balance. Protein needs for example are more likely a function of of lean body mass, and perhapswear and tear, than some fixed percentage of caloric budget.If the metric is sloppy, using it to fine tune a diet will be sloppy. As Rodney mentioned recently we are still figuring out nutrition, and I would add there are person to person differences that also compound the difficulty.  #1 cover nutritional needs, with perhaps some margin for safety#2  the rest is a grand experimentMacro ratios may help identify a potential shortfall of one, but I would be careful about reading too much beyond that.YMMVJR On Aug 26, 2008, at 10:13 AM, bill4cr wrote:Huh. No one is interested to make comment??The reason i ask is there seems to be a wide range of macronutrientratio's between CRON'ers from low fat Ornish style to high protein'Zone" to higher 'good' fat Mediterranean.After reading a few choice studies they indicate caloricallyrestricted peeps may need additional protein intake even beyond theRDA's, I'm thinking of increasing my protein to 30 or even 40% oftotal cals.For instance, this shows that we may need more than RDA of protein toprevent muscle wasting:1)J Nutr Health Aging. 2007 Jul-Aug;11(4):363-9.LinksRelationship between antioxidant intakes and class I sarcopenia inelderly men and women.Chaput JP, Lord C, Cloutier M, Aubertin Leheure M, Goulet ED,Rousseau S, Khalil A, Dionne IJ.... Fat-free mass and total appendicular skeletal muscle mass wasdetermined by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry in 50 healthy, olderwhite men (n = 16) and women (n = 34) aged 60-75 yrs. Physical activityenergy expenditure (PAEE) was determined ... Dietary protein andantioxidant intakes were estimated from a 3-d food record and serumtotal antioxidant activity (TAA) was measured by a ferrylmyoglobin- ABTSassay.... Our results showed that PAEE, serum albumin concentrations, TAA, andthe four antioxidants intake levels were similar between groups [withand without class I sarcopenia -- ie, skeletal muscle mass 1-2 standarddeviations below gender-specific mean for a young adult] .On the other hand, our results showed that total protein intake wassignificantly higher (P < 0.01) in the non-sarcopenic group than in thesarcopenic group ... a higher total dietary protein intake is associatedwith the preservation of muscle mass loss although *both* groupsdisplayed values *above* actual RDAs.Obviously, prospective studies are needed to determine the minimumamount of protein in the diet needed to prevent class I sarcopenia andto examine the utility of antioxidant intake to combat the age-relatedloss in skeletal muscle mass.PMID: 17653501 Also see:2)Effects of Protein, Monounsaturated Fat, and Carbohydrate Intake onBlood Pressure and Serum Lipids: Results of the OmniHeart Randomized TrialLawrence J. Appel, MD, MPH; M. Sacks, MD; J. Carey, PhD;Eva Obarzanek, PhD; Janis F. Swain, MS, RD; Edgar R. III, MD,PhD; R. Conlin, MD; P. Erlinger, MD, MPH; Bernard A. Rosner,PhD; M. Laranjo; Jeanne ton, RN; Phyllis McCarron, MS, RD;Louise M. Bishop, RD; for the OmniHeart Collaborative Research GroupJAMA. 2005 Nov 16; 294(19):2455-64.3) Noakes M, Keogh JB, PR, Clifton PM.Effect of an energy-restricted, high-protein, low-fat diet relative to aconventional high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet on weight loss, bodycomposition,nutritional status, and markers of cardiovascular health in obese women.I welcome any and all critique!>> As a predominate plant-eating CRON'er i am considering adding more> animal sources to boost my daily protein. (i've been reading the views> of another list member. the argument for more animal protein under> CRON seems compelling but i am not sure) May I ask what are YOUR> macronutrient ratios? Can we get a summary of what you eat and why?> > thank you>

[Guest guest]

I hope the day will come (in my lifetime) when you can tell from a drop of blood or other easy way, your individual body needs for all nutrients, protein, exercise, etc. These are subjects that we have discussed and debated on this board. Till then, it’s an individual guessing game. However, if one “listens” to their body (do you feel good? Are you staying healthy? Are your biomarkers OK? etc) one can make an educated guess.

If I were one of those centenarians who were deficient but healthy in the study I alluded to earlier, I wouldn’t change a thing.

From: <robertsjohnh@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 10:36:04 -0500

< >

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: Macronutrient Ratios.. Enough protein?

I've offered this opinion before, IMO macro-nutrient ratios are similar to BMI. 

Used because  the math is convenient but not really comprehensive. The 

widespread use infers a significance it may not deserve.

For example food has at least two functions. Fuel for energy and raw material

for repairs, growth, whatever. Macro ratios for fuel use is probably secondary to 

the energy balance. 

Protein needs for example are more likely a function of of lean body mass, and perhaps

wear and tear, than some fixed percentage of caloric budget.

If the metric is sloppy, using it to fine tune a diet will be sloppy. As Rodney mentioned recently 

we are still figuring out nutrition, and I would add there are person to person differences that 

also compound the difficulty.  

#1 cover nutritional needs, with perhaps some margin for safety

#2  the rest is a grand experiment

Macro ratios may help identify a potential shortfall of one, but I would be careful about 

reading too much beyond that.

YMMV

JR 

On Aug 26, 2008, at 10:13 AM, bill4cr wrote:

Huh. No one is interested to make comment??

The reason i ask is there seems to be a wide range of macronutrient

ratio's between CRON'ers from low fat Ornish style to high protein

'Zone " to higher 'good' fat Mediterranean.

After reading a few choice studies they indicate calorically

restricted peeps may need additional protein intake even beyond the

RDA's, I'm thinking of increasing my protein to 30 or even 40% of

total cals.

For instance, this shows that we may need more than RDA of protein to

prevent muscle wasting:

1)J Nutr Health Aging. 2007 Jul-Aug;11(4):363-9.Links

Relationship between antioxidant intakes and class I sarcopenia in

elderly men and women.

Chaput JP, Lord C, Cloutier M, Aubertin Leheure M, Goulet ED,

Rousseau S, Khalil A, Dionne IJ.

.... Fat-free mass and total appendicular skeletal muscle mass was

determined by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry in 50 healthy, older

white men (n = 16) and women (n = 34) aged 60-75 yrs. Physical activity

energy expenditure (PAEE) was determined ... Dietary protein and

antioxidant intakes were estimated from a 3-d food record and serum

total antioxidant activity (TAA) was measured by a ferrylmyoglobin- ABTS

assay.

.... Our results showed that PAEE, serum albumin concentrations, TAA, and

the four antioxidants intake levels were similar between groups [with

and without class I sarcopenia -- ie, skeletal muscle mass 1-2 standard

deviations below gender-specific mean for a young adult] .

On the other hand, our results showed that total protein intake was

significantly higher (P < 0.01) in the non-sarcopenic group than in the

sarcopenic group ... a higher total dietary protein intake is associated

with the preservation of muscle mass loss although *both* groups

displayed values *above* actual RDAs.

Obviously, prospective studies are needed to determine the minimum

amount of protein in the diet needed to prevent class I sarcopenia and

to examine the utility of antioxidant intake to combat the age-related

loss in skeletal muscle mass.

PMID: 17653501 

Also see:

2)Effects of Protein, Monounsaturated Fat, and Carbohydrate Intake on

Blood Pressure and Serum Lipids: Results of the OmniHeart Randomized Trial

Lawrence J. Appel, MD, MPH; M. Sacks, MD; J. Carey, PhD;

Eva Obarzanek, PhD; Janis F. Swain, MS, RD; Edgar R. III, MD,

PhD; R. Conlin, MD; P. Erlinger, MD, MPH; Bernard A. Rosner,

PhD; M. Laranjo; Jeanne ton, RN; Phyllis McCarron, MS, RD;

Louise M. Bishop, RD; for the OmniHeart Collaborative Research Group

JAMA. 2005 Nov 16; 294(19):2455-64.

3) Noakes M, Keogh JB, PR, Clifton PM.

Effect of an energy-restricted, high-protein, low-fat diet relative to a

conventional high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet on weight loss, body

composition,

nutritional status, and markers of cardiovascular health in obese women.

I welcome any and all critique!

>

> As a predominate plant-eating CRON'er i am considering adding more

> animal sources to boost my daily protein. (i've been reading the views

> of another list member. the argument for more animal protein under

> CRON seems compelling but i am not sure) May I ask what are YOUR

> macronutrient ratios? Can we get a summary of what you eat and why?

> 

> thank you

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, these are true words of wisdom. In the end it comes down to listening to one's body, staying healthy, great bio-markers, and feeling alive and happy with one's health, wealth, and social relationships. Peace my friend.

Huh. No one is interested to make comment??The reason i ask is there seems to be a wide range of macronutrientratio's between CRON'ers from low fat Ornish style to high protein'Zone" to higher 'good' fat Mediterranean.After reading a few choice studies they indicate caloricallyrestricted peeps may need additional protein intake even beyond theRDA's, I'm thinking of increasing my protein to 30 or even 40% oftotal cals.For instance, this shows that we may need more than RDA of protein toprevent muscle wasting:1)J Nutr Health Aging. 2007 Jul-Aug;11(4) :363-9.LinksRelationship between antioxidant intakes and class I sarcopenia inelderly men and women.Chaput JP, Lord C, Cloutier M, Aubertin Leheure M, Goulet ED,Rousseau S, Khalil A, Dionne IJ.... Fat-free mass and total appendicular skeletal muscle mass

wasdetermined by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry in 50 healthy, olderwhite men (n = 16) and women (n = 34) aged 60-75 yrs. Physical activityenergy expenditure (PAEE) was determined ... Dietary protein andantioxidant intakes were estimated from a 3-d food record and serumtotal antioxidant activity (TAA) was measured by a ferrylmyoglobin- ABTSassay.... Our results showed that PAEE, serum albumin concentrations, TAA, andthe four antioxidants intake levels were similar between groups [withand without class I sarcopenia -- ie, skeletal muscle mass 1-2 standarddeviations below gender-specific mean for a young adult] .On the other hand, our results showed that total protein intake wassignificantly higher (P < 0.01) in the non-sarcopenic group than in thesarcopenic group ... a higher total dietary protein intake is associatedwith the preservation of muscle mass loss although *both*

groupsdisplayed values *above* actual RDAs.Obviously, prospective studies are needed to determine the minimumamount of protein in the diet needed to prevent class I sarcopenia andto examine the utility of antioxidant intake to combat the age-relatedloss in skeletal muscle mass.PMID: 17653501 Also see:2)Effects of Protein, Monounsaturated Fat, and Carbohydrate Intake onBlood Pressure and Serum Lipids: Results of the OmniHeart Randomized TrialLawrence J. Appel, MD, MPH; M. Sacks, MD; J. Carey, PhD;Eva Obarzanek, PhD; Janis F. Swain, MS, RD; Edgar R. III, MD,PhD; R. Conlin, MD; P. Erlinger, MD, MPH; Bernard A. Rosner,PhD; M. Laranjo; Jeanne ton, RN; Phyllis McCarron, MS, RD;Louise M. Bishop, RD; for the OmniHeart Collaborative Research GroupJAMA. 2005 Nov 16; 294(19):2455- 64.3) Noakes M, Keogh JB, PR, Clifton

PM.Effect of an energy-restricted, high-protein, low-fat diet relative to aconventional high-carbohydrate, low-fat diet on weight loss, bodycomposition,nutritional status, and markers of cardiovascular health in obese women.I welcome any and all critique!>> As a predominate plant-eating CRON'er i am considering adding more> animal sources to boost my daily protein. (i've been reading the views> of another list member. the argument for more animal protein under> CRON seems compelling but i am not sure) May I ask what are YOUR> macronutrient ratios? Can we get a summary of what you eat and why?> > thank

you>

[Guest guest]

Rod: You’re talking about overweight people with bad biomarkers – a different population than us CRONIES. And although I’ve never quite reached the healthy “high” that Walford talks about (unfortunately), I rarely get sick – and IMHO that’s a pretty good marker along with the others that we can physically measure.

From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:16:41 -0000

< >

Subject: [ ] Re: Macronutrient Ratios.. Enough protein?

Hi Ginger:

I personally wouldn't go overboard on the 'listen to your body' criterion.

The vast majority of the population on the SAD diet are doing just that, and we all know what that is doing for them : ^ (((

Rodney.

> >

> > As a predominate plant-eating CRON'er i am considering adding more

> > animal sources to boost my daily protein. (i've been reading the views

> > of another list member. the argument for more animal protein ! under

> > CRON seems compelling but i am not sure) May I ask what are YOUR

> > macronutrient ratios? Can we get a summary of what you eat and why?

> >

> > thank you

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Rodney for that reminder.

To me "listen to my body" means being AWARE of how good I feel when I eat nutritious food and exercise moderately. It also means being AWARE of how bad I feel (not just my mind) when I partake in the SAD and don't exercise. Lucky for me, it is only on a special occasion I partake in less than ultimately nutritious food and I can't remember letting myself down in the exercise realm in the past 20 years.

We know that the abundance of food that is present all around us today is not the norm for most to human time. Also, we are hard-wired to:

1. Seek pleasure

2. Avoid pain

3. Conserve energy; exert the least amount of effort (no wonder people won't get off the coach...because it take effort!)

We are different. We care about our health. We care about living a healthy long life. We are AWARE. We make choices based on the best scientific research that we have at this time. What more can we do?

Ginger

From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>Subject: [ ] Re: Macronutrient Ratios.. Enough protein? Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 3:16 PM

Hi Ginger:

I personally wouldn't go overboard on the 'listen to your body' criterion.

The vast majority of the population on the SAD diet are doing just that, and we all know what that is doing for them : ^ (((

Rodney.

> >> > As a predominate plant-eating CRON'er i am considering

adding more> > animal sources to boost my daily protein. (i've been reading the views> > of another list member. the argument for more animal protein under> > CRON seems compelling but i am not sure) May I ask what are YOUR> > macronutrient ratios? Can we get a summary of what you eat and why?> > > > thank you> >> > > > >