Re:Heavy soy eaters >>>dementia; moderate soy>> OK; (was: Re:Soy >>> D

[Guest guest]

I need some protein with every meal, both to meet my protein need and to make the veggies palatable. Since beans are out because of their olfactory sensations, there's the trade-off between the methionin of meat and fish, and the possible dementia risk of soy. With two studies, the latter seems the more scary, right now. If one meal with soy every three days could be considered without risk, this makes for five meals out of six having high-met protein. Even with protein restriction, I will - together with the met from brocoli and spinach etc - get considerably more than the one gram of met per day that Rodney mentioned as something to aim at. In the short run, life would be easier without these blockbuster studies........ // Ulf

Posted by: "Francesca Skelton" fskelton@... fskelton2002

Sun Jul 6, 2008 10:23 am (PDT)

What¹s wrong with just going heavy on the veggies, and maybe having sometofu, fish and/or chicken now and then? No need to cut out soy entirely,just cut down (as the study said, the dementia results are only indicatedfor everyday tofu eaters; moderate eaters were Ok).I think the previous heading for this thread is misleading; please note thechange in subject heading.From: Ulf Rasmusson <ulf.rasmussonbredband (DOT) net>Reply-< >Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 18:43:38 +0200< >Subject: [ ] Re:Soy >>> DementiaHaving transited from lean meat to soy protein with substantial effort,partly to cut methionin - and now a second study linking tofu to dementia,damn it! Sure, it could be the formaldehyde and not the estrogens, butwouldn't elementary safety indicate not going too heavy on soy?Assuming it's the estrogens that are the culprit, I wonder whether anythingcan be said about non-tofu soy products....... The study indicates thattempe is OK, Rodney hopes natto is OK and for me it is soy protein (defattedsoy beans) - I was just going to buy another 20 kilos from a wholeseller.... hoping I don't have to make a major dietary shift again.....// UlfPosted by Rodney: It looks like there is now another study suggesting a positiveassociation between some soy products and dementia:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm>Hopefully not for natto? ; ^ )))

[Guest guest]

Hi Ulf:

When you say you need protein with every meal, do you mean protein?

Or do you mean meat? If you mean meat then if you must eat it, you

must eat it, I suppose. But there are vegetables that contain more

than enough *protein*.

For example, 28% of the calories in pak choi (=bok choy) are in the

form of protein. Do you really need more than this? How many grams

of protein do you want to eat? The (doubtless overstated) RDA for

protein for a 70kg male is 56g. 1700 kcal of pak choi contains 196g

of protein. There are other vegetables.

Now if what you are really saying is that you like the taste of meat

more than vegetables and have trouble eating a lot of vegetables, I

have a couple of suggestions for you.

'Chutney' is delicious (and when you see the recipe you will realize

healthy also) and the sugar in the commercial stuff can be

substituted with sucralose if you make it yourself, which is easy.

Worked brilliantly first time for me.

Alternatively you can make a Pritikin white sauce, and flavor it

with whatever you want (anti-inflamm mix if you like!). And I have

what I believe to be a much improved version of this recipe. But I

have greatly enjoyed the old version repeatedly for almost 30 years.

Gotta go, so tell me if you want the recipes. I don't need to eat

meat with vegetables. But they can be a bit bland eaten on their

own. Appropriate 'sauces' make vegetables quite enjoyable for me.

Rodney.

>

>

>

>

> I need some protein with every meal, both to meet my protein need

and to make the veggies palatable. Since beans are out because of

their olfactory sensations, there's the trade-off between the

methionin of meat and fish, and the possible dementia risk of soy.

With two studies, the latter seems the more scary, right now. If

one meal with soy every three days could be considered without risk,

this makes for five meals out of six having high-met protein. Even

with protein restriction, I will - together with the met from

brocoli and spinach etc - get considerably more than the one gram of

met per day that Rodney mentioned as something to aim at. In the

short run, life would be easier without these blockbuster

studies........ // Ulf

>

> Posted by: " Francesca Skelton " fskelton@... fskelton2002

> Sun Jul 6, 2008 10:23 am (PDT)

> What¹s wrong with just going heavy on the veggies, and maybe

having some

> tofu, fish and/or chicken now and then? No need to cut out soy

entirely,

> just cut down (as the study said, the dementia results are only

indicated

> for everyday tofu eaters; moderate eaters were Ok).

>

> I think the previous heading for this thread is misleading; please

note the

> change in subject heading.

>

> From: Ulf Rasmusson <ulf.rasmusson@...>

> Reply-< >

> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 18:43:38 +0200

> < >

> Subject: [ ] Re:Soy >>> Dementia

>

> Having transited from lean meat to soy protein with substantial

effort,

> partly to cut methionin - and now a second study linking tofu to

dementia,

> damn it! Sure, it could be the formaldehyde and not the estrogens,

but

> wouldn't elementary safety indicate not going too heavy on soy?

>

> Assuming it's the estrogens that are the culprit, I wonder whether

anything

> can be said about non-tofu soy products....... The study indicates

that

> tempe is OK, Rodney hopes natto is OK and for me it is soy protein

(defatted

> soy beans) - I was just going to buy another 20 kilos from a

wholeseller

> .... hoping I don't have to make a major dietary shift again.....

>

> // Ulf

>

>

> Posted by Rodney:

>

> It looks like there is now another study suggesting a positive

> association between some soy products and dementia:

>

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm

> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm>

>

> Hopefully not for natto? ; ^ )))

>

[Guest guest]

Rod: if your recipes are not in the links (recipe section), please do post them.

Your post below is exactly what I meant when I questioned why Ulf wasn’t

eating more veggies instead of protein (meaning meat, fish, tofu).

From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 21:44:20 -0000

< >

Subject: [ ] Re:Heavy soy eaters >>>dementia; moderate soy>> OK; (was: Re:Soy >>> D

Hi Ulf:

When you say you need protein with every meal, do you mean protein?

Or do you mean meat? If you mean meat then if you must eat it, you

must eat it, I suppose. But there are vegetables that contain more

than enough *protein*.

For example, 28% of the calories in pak choi (=bok choy) are in the

form of protein. Do you really need more than this? How many grams

of protein do you want to eat? The (doubtless overstated) RDA for

protein for a 70kg male is 56g. 1700 kcal of pak choi contains 196g

of protein. There are other vegetables.

Now if what you are really saying is that you like the taste of meat

more than vegetables and have trouble eating a lot of vegetables, I

have a couple of suggestions for you.

'Chutney' is delicious (and when you see the recipe you will realize

healthy also) and the sugar in the commercial stuff can be

substituted with sucralose if you make it yourself, which is easy.

Worked brilliantly first time for me.

Alternatively you can make a Pritikin white sauce, and flavor it

with whatever you want (anti-inflamm mix if you like!). And I have

what I believe to be a much improved version of this recipe. But I

have greatly enjoyed the old version repeatedly for almost 30 years.

Gotta go, so tell me if you want the recipes. I don't need to eat

meat with vegetables. But they can be a bit bland eaten on their

own. Appropriate 'sauces' make vegetables quite enjoyable for me.

Rodney.

>

>

>

>

> I need some protein with every meal, both to meet my protein need

and to make the veggies palatable. Since beans are out because of

their olfactory sensations, there's the trade-off between the

methionin of meat and fish, and the possible dementia risk of soy.

With two studies, the latter seems the more scary, right now. If

one meal with soy every three days could be considered without risk,

this makes for five meals out of six having high-met protein. Even

with protein restriction, I will - together with the met from

brocoli and spinach etc - get considerably more than the one gram of

met per day that Rodney mentioned as something to aim at. In the

short run, life would be easier without these blockbuster

studies........ // Ulf

>

> Posted by: " Francesca Skelton " fskelton@... fskelton2002

> Sun Jul 6, 2008 10:23 am (PDT)

> What’s wrong with just going heavy on the veggies, and maybe

having some

> tofu, fish and/or chicken now and then? No need to cut out soy

entirely,

> just cut down (as the study said, the dementia results are only

indicated

> for everyday tofu eaters; moderate eaters were Ok).

>

> I think the previous heading for this thread is misleading; please

note the

> change in subject heading.

>

> From: Ulf Rasmusson <ulf.rasmusson@...>

> Reply-< <mailto: %40> >

> Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 18:43:38 +0200

> < <mailto: %40> >

> Subject: [ ] Re:Soy >>> Dementia

>

> Having transited from lean meat to soy protein with substantial

effort,

> partly to cut methionin - and now a second study linking tofu to

dementia,

> damn it! Sure, it could be the formaldehyde and not the estrogens,

but

> wouldn't elementary safety indicate not going too heavy on soy?

>

> Assuming it's the estrogens that are the culprit, I wonder whether

anything

> can be said about non-tofu soy products....... The study indicates

that

> tempe is OK, Rodney hopes natto is OK and for me it is soy protein

(defatted

> soy beans) - I was just going to buy another 20 kilos from a

wholeseller

> .... hoping I don't have to make a major dietary shift again.....

>

> // Ulf

>

>

> Posted by Rodney:

>

> It looks like there is now another study suggesting a positive

> association between some soy products and dementia:

>

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm

> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm>

>

> Hopefully not for natto? ; ^ )))

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Rodney. I'll go crunch the protein numbers and get back if I still have a problem. In the meantime, please send me that recipe on pritkin white sauce. // Ulf

[Guest guest]

Hi Ulf:

Just so you know, for a very long time now I have been making this recipe 'off the cuff' without paying much attention to the amounts of the ingredients I use.

So before posting it I will have to make the recipe again, measuring all the quantities, so that I can provide specific numbers when I post it.

Please remind me in a couple of weeks if it hasn't appeared here. Thanks for your patience.

Rodney.

>> Thanks, Rodney. I'll go crunch the protein numbers and get back if I still have a problem. In the meantime, please send me that recipe on pritkin white sauce. // Ulf>