Re: Micromanaging your diet

[Guest guest]

Here is Jeff’s post: 27065

e: [ ] Methione, CRON & Okinawa (was: And what do you plan to do about it? (was:]Methionine and Brain Function)

It seems to me that if one is following a lower fat, higher carb plant based, whole food diet, and restricting calories, then they are also restricting methionine.

BTW, this weekend I spent some time reviewing, and presenting, some of the Okinawa data that came out a few months ago, and noticed some interesting points.

Caloric Restriction, the Traditional Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging,

The Diet of the World’s Longest-Lived People and Its Potential Impact on Morbidity and Life Span

Ann. N.Y. Acad. Sci. 1114: 434–455 (2007).

The data from 1949, which was reflective of those who would become centenarians, showed their intake to provide about a 11% restriction (in regard to their estimated energy needs). This is one that seems to go along with the more moderate approach we lean towards here.

This resulted in an estimated BMI of 21.2, again, well within the 18.5 - 22 that other data we have posted here supports.

They were estimated to burn about 841 calories per day which (after accounting for TEF) would be an activity factor of about 1.55 which is the equivalent of being moderately active (moderate exercise/sports 3-5 days/week) which again, would be inline with what we say here.

The calorie density of the diet was 1.4 cal/gm or 635 cal/pound which is also in line with the recent WCF/AICR report on cancer that recommended an average calorie density of 1.25 cal/gm or 567 calories per pound.

But what i found most interesting is in spite of their nutrient dense diet, they were short on several nutrients.

Nutrient, Amount, % RDA

Vitamin D (mcg) 0.4 2%

Vitamin B2(mg) 0.5 45%

Niacin (mg) 13.2 93%

Vitamin B12: 0.6 27%

Calcium (mg) 505.3 82%

Zinc (mg) 6.2 62%

And while several reported experiencing some signs/symptoms reflective of these deficiencies, including 14% reported experiencing symptoms of Cheilosis, which is reflective of the B deficiencies, this didn't effect the overall benefit of their overall diet and lifestyle to their longevity.

My point is that maybe we are splitting hairs over micro-managing some things that may not matter to the bigger picture. With the bigger picture being, restrict calories 10-20%, aim for a BMI of 18.5 - 22, focus on low calorie dense, high nutrient dense foods, be moderately active, and enjoy life.

Regards

Jeff

From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:45:58 -0400

support group < >

Conversation: Micromanaging your diet

Subject: [ ] Micromanaging your diet

I can’t seem to find the post, but Jeff posted recently (within the past few months)

that an examination of healthy centenarians revealed several vitamin/mineral deficiencies.

Moral: there is no need to micro-manage your vitamins/minerals if you’re generally feeling good and healthy. And probably no need to take supplements (although I too take a very few).

I would love to put that post into the files if anyone can dig it up! Jeff???

From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 10:27:27 -0000

< >

Subject: [ ] Re: Heavy soy eaters >>>dementia; moderate soy>> OK;

Hi Carol:

And maybe we need to talk here more than we have in the past about

nutrient **excesses**, and how to avoid them. Iron especially, for

all males and for women over 50. But pretty much all 'minerals' are

dangerous in excess. And some vitamins also.

This is another reason not to take more of them (in multis, for example)

unless you really need them.

But of course no one as far as I know has ever done studies to determine

the intake of each micronutrient that is associated with maximum

lifespan. Perhaps fifty years from now we will see such studies?

Rodney.

> > > What's wrong with just going heavy on the veggies, and maybe

having

> > > some tofu, fish and/or chicken now and then? No need to cut out

soy

> > > entirely, just cut down (as the study said, the dementia results

are

> > > only indicated for everyday tofu eaters; moderate eaters were Ok).

> > >

> > > I think the previous heading for this thread is misleading; please

> > > note the change in subject heading.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

----------------------------------------------------------

> > > *From: *Ulf Rasmusson ulf.rasmusson@

> > > *Reply-* <mailto:%2A %40>

> > > *Date: *Sun, 6 Jul 2008 18:43:38 +0200

> > > ** <mailto:%2A %40>

> > > *Subject: *[ ] Re:Soy >>> Dementia

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Having transited from lean meat to soy protein with substantial

> > > effort, partly to cut methionin - and now a second study linking

> tofu

> > > to dementia, damn it! Sure, it could be the formaldehyde and not

the

> > > estrogens, but wouldn't elementary safety indicate not going too

> heavy

> > > on soy?

> > >

> > > Assuming it's the estrogens that are the culprit, I wonder whether

> > > anything can be said about non-tofu soy products....... The study

> > > indicates that tempe is OK, Rodney hopes natto is OK and for me it

> is

> > > soy protein (defatted soy beans) - I was just going to buy another

> 20

> > > kilos from a wholeseller .... hoping I don't have to make a major

> > > dietary shift again.....

> > >

> > > // Ulf

> > >

> > >

> > > Posted by Rodney:

> > >

> > > It looks like there is now another study suggesting a positive

> > > association between some soy products and dementia:

> > >

> > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm

> > > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm>

> > >

> > > Hopefully not for natto? ; ^ )))

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

Re-reading Jeff's post I realize that I had meant to respond to it when I first read it, but never did. I had meant to say that we need to consider two possibilities:

1. Perhaps some of these supposed deficiencies may have contributed to their longevity. I.E. the RDAs may be in error on the high side for some of those nutrients listed, or, alternatively:

2. Since, despite huge discrepancies in nutrition quality and food restriction, the average okinawan male lives only a few years longer than the average north american male, perhaps if those in Okinawa had made sure to get the RDAs for all the nutrients, they might have realized to a much greater extent the promise shown by CRON in mice (~40% extension in maximum lifespan, compared with which the okinawans are nowhere remotely close). This possibility would be very relevant to those on CRON who make sure to plug their deficiencies.

I don't have an opinion which, if either, of the above is correct. Maybe neither. But it is something that cries out for examination, IMO, given the data shown.

Rodney

> > > > What's wrong with just going heavy on the veggies, and maybe> having> > > > some tofu, fish and/or chicken now and then? No need to cut out> soy> > > > entirely, just cut down (as the study said, the dementia results> are> > > > only indicated for everyday tofu eaters; moderate eaters were Ok).> > > >> > > > I think the previous heading for this thread is misleading; please> > > > note the change in subject heading.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------> > > > *From: *Ulf Rasmusson ulf.rasmusson@> > > > *Reply-* > <mailto:%2A %40>> > > > *Date: *Sun, 6 Jul 2008 18:43:38 +0200> > > > ** > <mailto:%2A %40>> > > > *Subject: *[ ] Re:Soy >>> Dementia> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Having transited from lean meat to soy protein with substantial> > > > effort, partly to cut methionin - and now a second study linking> > tofu> > > > to dementia, damn it! Sure, it could be the formaldehyde and not> the> > > > estrogens, but wouldn't elementary safety indicate not going too> > heavy> > > > on soy?> > > >> > > > Assuming it's the estrogens that are the culprit, I wonder whether> > > > anything can be said about non-tofu soy products....... The study> > > > indicates that tempe is OK, Rodney hopes natto is OK and for me it> > is> > > > soy protein (defatted soy beans) - I was just going to buy another> > 20> > > > kilos from a wholeseller .... hoping I don't have to make a major> > > > dietary shift again.....> > > >> > > > // Ulf> > > >> > > >> > > > Posted by Rodney:> > > >> > > > It looks like there is now another study suggesting a positive> > > > association between some soy products and dementia:> > > >> > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm> > > > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm>> > > >> > > > Hopefully not for natto? ; ^ )))> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Hi folks:

What would be needed is a comparison of the lifespans of 40% CRON mice with similar mice on the same degree of restriction but with deficiencies similar to those of the okinawans.

And later, maybe, experiments with ~20 groups of 40% restricted mice, each group with a sizeable (50%?) deficiency of just one micronutrient. Perhaps some nutrients REALLY matter and others hardly at all?

Rodney.

> > > > > What's wrong with just going heavy on the veggies, and maybe> > having> > > > > some tofu, fish and/or chicken now and then? No need to cut out> > soy> > > > > entirely, just cut down (as the study said, the dementia results> > are> > > > > only indicated for everyday tofu eaters; moderate eaters were> Ok).> > > > >> > > > > I think the previous heading for this thread is misleading;> please> > > > > note the change in subject heading.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------> > > > > *From: *Ulf Rasmusson ulf.rasmusson@> > > > > *Reply-* > > <mailto:%2A %40>> > > > > *Date: *Sun, 6 Jul 2008 18:43:38 +0200> > > > > ** > > <mailto:%2A %40>> > > > > *Subject: *[ ] Re:Soy >>> Dementia> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Having transited from lean meat to soy protein with substantial> > > > > effort, partly to cut methionin - and now a second study linking> > > tofu> > > > > to dementia, damn it! Sure, it could be the formaldehyde and not> > the> > > > > estrogens, but wouldn't elementary safety indicate not going too> > > heavy> > > > > on soy?> > > > >> > > > > Assuming it's the estrogens that are the culprit, I wonder> whether> > > > > anything can be said about non-tofu soy products....... The> study> > > > > indicates that tempe is OK, Rodney hopes natto is OK and for me> it> > > is> > > > > soy protein (defatted soy beans) - I was just going to buy> another> > > 20> > > > > kilos from a wholeseller .... hoping I don't have to make a> major> > > > > dietary shift again.....> > > > >> > > > > // Ulf> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Posted by Rodney:> > > > >> > > > > It looks like there is now another study suggesting a positive> > > > > association between some soy products and dementia:> > > > >> > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm> > > > > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm>> > > > >> > > > > Hopefully not for natto? ; ^ )))> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Well there’s a lot we don’t know. So we have to go with what we do know.

IMHO this is like the methionine problem. We have some studies which point to it as an impediment to living long. OTOH we have the conflicting info that vegans and vegetarians live no longer than healthy eating meat/fish eaters.

Since we do not have a group of 120 year old humans just yet (except for one - Jeanne Calment of France who it seems didn’t take any great pains with her diet and even smoked. If I’m mistaken about Madame Clement, please correct me, anyone.)

From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:41:00 -0000

< >

Subject: [ ] Re: Micromanaging your diet

Hi Francesca:

Re-reading Jeff's post I realize that I had meant to respond to it when I first read it, but never did. I had meant to say that we need to consider two possibilities:

1. Perhaps some of these supposed deficiencies may have contributed to their longevity. I.E. the RDAs may be in error on the high side for some of those nutrients listed, or, alternatively:

2. Since, despite huge discrepancies in nutrition quality and food restriction, the average okinawan male lives only a few years longer than the average north american male, perhaps if those in Okinawa had made sure to get the RDAs for all the nutrients, they might have realized to a much greater extent the promise shown by CRON in mice (~40% extension in maximum lifespan, compared with which the okinawans are nowhere remotely close). This possibility would be very relevant to those on CRON who make sure to plug their deficiencies.

I don't have an opinion which, if either, of the above is correct. Maybe neither. But it is something that cries out for examination, IMO, given the data shown.

Rodney

> > > > What's wrong with just going heavy on the veggies, and maybe

> having

> > > > some tofu, fish and/or chicken now and then? No need to cut out

> soy

> > > > entirely, just cut down (as the study said, the dementia results

> are

> > > > only indicated for everyday tofu eaters; moderate eaters were Ok).

> > > >

> > > > I think the previous heading for this thread is misleading; please

> > > > note the change in subject heading.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> >

> ----------------------------------------------------------

> > > > *From: *Ulf Rasmusson ulf.rasmusson@

> > > > *Reply-*

> <mailto:%2A %40>

> > > > *Date: *Sun, 6 Jul 2008 18:43:38 +0200

> > > > **

> <mailto:%2A %40>

> > > > *Subject: *[ ] Re:Soy >>> Dementia

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Having transited from lean meat to soy protein with substantial

> > > > effort, partly to cut methionin - and now a second study linking

> > tofu

> > > > to dementia, damn it! Sure, it could be the formaldehyde and not

> the

> > > > estrogens, but wouldn't elementary safety indicate not going too

> > heavy

> > > > on soy?

> > > >

> > > > Assuming it's the estrogens that are the culprit, I wonder whether

> > > > anything can be said about non-tofu soy products....... The study

> > > > indicates that tempe is OK, Rodney hopes natto is OK and for me it

> > is

> > > > soy protein (defatted soy beans) - I was just going to buy another

> > 20

> > > > kilos from a wholeseller .... hoping I don't have to make a major

> > > > dietary shift again.....

> > > >

> > > > // Ulf

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Posted by Rodney:

> > > >

> > > > It looks like there is now another study suggesting a positive

> > > > association between some soy products and dementia:

> > > >

> > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm

> > > > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7490202.stm>

> > > >

> > > > Hopefully not for natto? ; ^ )))

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

I agree. And if, of the two possibilities I outlined, number 2 turns out to be true (the need to plug deficiencies), then there is no problem because we all should have that angle covered, thanks largely to CRON-o-Meter.

But if it turns out that number 1 is true (that some of their deficiencies account for their longevity) then we almost certainly do have a problem, one exactly parallel to the MET issue.

As we all know, people on CRON, because of our reduced caloric intake, need to make sure we get enough of all the essential micronutrients. But given our efforts in this direction - maximization of nutrients per 100 calories - if there are some we need to restrict to only the amount that is absolutely required, then there is a danger we may be getting too much. Exactly parallel to the MET in egg whites, if the MET issue turns out to be relevant to humans.

So what I am trying to indicate here is that we need to keep our ears to the ground for evidence there may be other nutrients that should be carefully restricted. All the 'minerals' are known to be hazardous in large amounts, for example. Trans and saturated fats are other pretty well documented examples (although not required nutrients), that have become widely known only in the past couple of decades. And monounsatured fats too it seems, based on studies that have been posted here quite recently.

Rodney.

> > > > > What's wrong with just going heavy on the veggies, and maybe> > having> > > > > some tofu, fish and/or chicken now and then? No need to cut out> > soy> > > > > entirely, just cut down (as the study said, the dementia results> > are> > > > > only indicated for everyday tofu eaters; moderate eaters were Ok).> > > > >

[Guest guest]

> ....we need to

> consider two possibilities:

>

> 1. Perhaps some of these supposed deficiencies may have contributed

> to their longevity. I.E. the RDAs may be in error on the high side for

> some of those nutrients listed, or, alternatively:

>

> 2. Since, despite huge discrepancies in nutrition quality and food

> restriction, the average okinawan male lives only a few years longer

> than the average north american male, perhaps if those in Okinawa had

> made sure to get the RDAs for all the nutrients, they might have

> realized to a much greater extent the promise shown by CRON in mice

> (~40% extension in maximum lifespan, compared with which the okinawans

> are nowhere remotely close). This possibility would be very relevant

> to those on CRON who make sure to plug their deficiencies.

There are other possibilities, too. The whole nutrient area is a great deal

of a gamble, despite all the research that has been done. Just because

a RDA of nutrient X will prevent disease Y, that does not mean that a RDA

of nutrient X will increase average lifespan; in some circumstances it

may decrease it. After all, I seriously doubt that more than a tiny

fraction of primitive people were getting the RDA of everything.

Another possibility: perhaps being slightly " deficient " in

certain nutrients may stress the body in a healthy way (much like CR

itself). It's possible that CRON (with " optimal nutrition " ) might not

be as good as vanilla CR (undernutrition without malnutrition).

All we can do is pick a road to travel down, and try not to keep jumping

from one road to another every time a new relevant study is published.

Bruce