Re: Back to Methionine

[Guest guest]

Hi Tony:

Yes, I agree. In fact I discussed this very point in the piece I put in the files on protein restriction:

'CRON Science' ...... 'DOES CR WORK THROUGH PROTEIN RESTRICTION?'

http://f1.grp.fs.com/v1/wIxqSMP3EtihIwkqJuGMrZ5iYgdg-0-qWaGFLHJYgryHCfB-7XXBj1GTPH2Sr6t4tcdfY8MD5SqCRQPoes2h/CRON%20SCIENCE/Does%20CR%20Work%20through%20Protein%20Restriction%3F

or: http://snipurl.com/2san9

The last part of which reads:

====================

"............. BUT APART FROM THE BENEFIT OF CALORIC RESTRICTION, THE ABOVE HAS YET BEEN CONCLUSIVELY DEMONSTRATED. "Indeed there is some evidence which does not fit well with the methionine hypothesis. For example, the most prolific sources of methionine in the human diet are animal products. So, if the hypothesis is correct, vegetarians and vegans should enjoy significantly extended lifespans compared with meat eaters. "While vegetarians and vegans on diets containing all essential nutrients are healthy, PMID: 16441942, referenced by Jeff Novick in post #24225, suggests their lifespans are not in fact longer than those of similarly health-conscious meat eaters. "So the evidence with regard to protein and methionine restriction is not entirely one-sided. "As always, we each have to make up our own minds where to place our bets, based on our personal assessment of the evidence. Naturally, sometimes when one bets, one loses."

====================

So we still do not know to what extent this will/may affect the aging rate in humans. That said, reducing one's intake of MET to around the RDA for it (perhaps one gram a day) does not seem likely to have any downside. (My opinion only, of course)

Rodney.> >> > > > Hi folks:> > > > This dated June 2008:> > > > "........................ This suggests that the lowered intake of> > methionine is responsible for the decrease in oxidative stress observed> > in DR."> > > > Biogerontology. 2008 Jun;9(3):183-96.> > > > "Forty percent and eighty percent methionine restriction decrease> > mitochondrial ROS generation and oxidative stress in rat liver."> > > > > Departamento de Fisiología Animal-II, Facultad de Ciencias> > Biológicas, Complutense University, c/ Novais-2, Madrid> > 28040, Spain.> > > > "Dietary restriction (DR) lowers mitochondrial reactive oxygen species> > (ROS) generation and oxidative damage and increases maximum longevity in> > rodents. Protein restriction (PR) or methionine restriction (MetR), but> > not lipid or carbohydrate restriction, also cause those kinds of> > changes. However, previous experiments of MetR were performed only at> > 80% MetR, and substituting dietary methionine with glutamate in the> > diet. In order to clarify if MetR can be responsible for the lowered ROS> > production and oxidative stress induced by standard (40%) DR, Wistar> > rats were subjected to 40% or 80% MetR without changing other dietary> > components. It was found that both 40% and 80% MetR decrease> > mitochondrial ROS generation and percent free radical leak in rat liver> > mitochondria, similarly to what has been previously observed in 40% PR> > and 40% DR. The concentration of complexes I and III, apoptosis inducing> > factor, oxidative damage to mitochondrial DNA, five different markers of> > protein oxidation, glycoxidation or lipoxidation and fatty acid> > unsaturation were also lowered. The results show that 40% isocaloric> > MetR is enough to decrease ROS production and oxidative stress in rat> > liver. This suggests that the lowered intake of methionine is> > responsible for the decrease in oxidative stress observed in DR."> > > > PMID: 18283555> > > > Rodney.> >>

[Guest guest]

>>The other thing is the longest lived, the Japanese, supposedly eat lot of

fish.

Hey JW,

This fairly new study from the NY Academy Of Sciences went back and

documented what the long lived Okinawans ate before 1950, when we began

to westernize the island.

The fish intake was estimated to be around 15 grams a day, or the

equivalent of 1/2 oz a day.

Caloric Restriction, the Traditional

Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging

The Diet of the World’s Longest-Lived People and Its Potential Impact on

Morbidity and Life Span

Ann. N.Y. Acad. Sci. 1114: 434–455 (2007).

TABLE 1. Traditional dietary intake of Okinawans and other Japanese

circa 1950

Total calories 1785

Total weight (grams) 1262

Caloric density (calories/gram) 1.4

Total protein in grams (% total calories) 39 (9)

Total carbohydrate in grams (% total calories) 382 (85)

Total fat in grams (% total calories) 12 (6)

Saturated fatty acid 3.7

Monounsaturated fatty acid 3.6

Polyunsaturated fatty acid 4.8

Total fiber (grams) 23

Food group Weight in grams (% total calories)

Grains

Rice 154 (12)

Wheat, barley, and other grains 38 (7)

Nuts, seeds <1 (<1)

Sugars 3 (<1)

Oils 3 (2)

Legumes (e.g., soy and other beans) 71 (6)

Fish 15 (1)

Meat (including poultry) 3 (<1)

Eggs 1 (<1)

Dairy <1 (<1)

Vegetables

Sweet potatoes 849 (69)

Other potatoes 2 (<1)

Other vegetables 114 (3)

Fruit <1 (<1)

Seaweed 1 (<1)

Pickled vegetables 0 (0)

Foods: flavors & alcohol 7 (<1)

Data derived from analysis of U.S. National Archives, archived food

records, 1949 and based on survey of 2279 persons.

Regards

Jeff

[Guest guest]

The part that is always left out is cysteine which is " sister " part of the

methionine loop.

The other thing is the longest lived, the Japanese, supposedly eat lot of

fish.

Regards

[ ] Re: Back to Methionine

Hi Tony:

Yes, I agree. In fact I discussed this very point in the piece I put in the

files on protein restriction:

'CRON Science' ...... 'DOES CR WORK THROUGH PROTEIN RESTRICTION?'

http://f1.grp.fs.com/v1/wIxqSMP3EtihIwkqJuGMrZ5iYgdg-0-qWaGFLHJYgryHCfB

-7XXBj1GTPH2Sr6t4tcdfY8MD5SqCRQPoes2h/CRON%20SCIENCE/Does%20CR%20Work%20thro

ugh%20Protein%20Restriction%3F

or: http://snipurl.com/2san9

The last part of which reads:

====================

" ............. BUT APART FROM THE BENEFIT OF CALORIC RESTRICTION, THE

ABOVE HAS YET BEEN CONCLUSIVELY DEMONSTRATED.

" Indeed there is some evidence which does not fit well with the methionine

hypothesis. For example, the most prolific sources of methionine in the

human diet are animal products. So, if the hypothesis is correct,

vegetarians and vegans should enjoy significantly extended lifespans

compared with meat eaters.

" While vegetarians and vegans on diets containing all essential nutrients

are healthy, PMID: 16441942, referenced by Jeff Novick in post #24225,

suggests their lifespans are not in fact longer than those of similarly

health-conscious meat eaters.

" So the evidence with regard to protein and methionine restriction is not

entirely one-sided.

" As always, we each have to make up our own minds where to place our bets,

based on our personal assessment of the evidence. Naturally, sometimes when

one bets, one loses. "

====================

So we still do not know to what extent this will/may affect the aging rate

in humans. That said, reducing one's intake of MET to around the RDA for

it (perhaps one gram a day) does not seem likely to have any downside. (My

opinion only, of course)

Rodney.

[Guest guest]

Hi JW:

True.

One way this might *possibly* be explained is this. As previously discussed, japanese males live only a few years longer than american males despite the apparently atrocious diet of americans and absolutely wonderful diet of the japanese. This includes a considerable degree of caloric restriction on the part of people in Japan (which, of course, we at consider to be a really major factor) in comparison with the obesity that seems now to be pretty much the norm in north America.

So it is a little surprising that the lifepans of the japanese are not much greater than they are, considering what we think we know about their dietary habits.

Maybe the japanese and okinawans would live much much longer than they do if they consumed a lot less of the methionine they get from fish ......... and took fish oil capsules instead, so as to get the benefits of the fish fat without the accelerated-aging effects of excessive methionone?

Of course I do not know this to be true. I am simply proposing a hypothesis to try to explain the data we see.

If anyone has serious evidence either for or against this proposition please post it.

Rodney.

> The other thing is the longest lived, the Japanese, supposedly > eat lot of fish.> > Regards

[Guest guest]

Back to Methionine

Posted by: " citpeks " citpeks@... citpeks

Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:12 pm (PDT)

Rodney,

Since vegetarian diets are naturally lower in methionine than more

omnivorous diets, it seems to me that if just restricting methionine

resulted in increased longevity, we would already have many examples

of vegetarian centenarians.

The fact that we don't see too many Buddhist monks achieve centenarian

status is a strong indicator that methionine restriction is not likely

to be the best path to longevity.

Do you have any statistics about vegetarian/vegan longevity or mortality?

Tony

---------------------

Hi Tony

I find your sentence construct here very amusing, even if it is

true. Among the Buddhist monks I hang out with, some I would

say live as if they believed in calorie restriction, but many

are overweight from consuming bread, rice, and other carbohydrates.

..

I'm involved in a committee that is planning a retirement

community for Buddhist monks. It's funny, but we don't discuss

issues related to food when discussing the life of these aging

monks.

I also think back of my early years when exposed to Catholic

contemplative monks, the Carthusians. Their diet is very simple

and vegetarian. It does include eggs and dairy, except during

religious fasts that last sometimes for months at a time. I think

the monks there die healthy but from a life of simplicity and

denial. Their life is actually quite austere, the most rigorous

of any order.

If there is any point I may be trying to make is that the monks are

not obsessed with how long they can live. They celebrate, however,

when someone has been able to live a long life in peace, harmony,

happiness, and die in a way that is concordant with that. They

are fascinated by elderly Buddhist practitioners that reach the

time when they are ready to die, and do so gracefully. That's a

life well lived, IMO.

Cheers,

Arturo

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that.

The Okinawan book leads me to think they consume more, but that book has a

lot of opinions mixed in.

I recall in the war, the Japanese on islands were found to be living on

dried fish heads which they would boil. My first impression was how much is

in a fish head? It may be just the right amount of DHA.

I'm sure we, at least I, can live on a lot less protein than advertised.

But one other thing to remember is I go to a Hong Kong market today, and I

see many skinny 5 foot people. That's not us.

Granted they're new Orientals to our country, but the food they eat,

indicated by what I see they sell, and buy, is a lotta fish of many types

and many processes.

Some canned, some dried - tiny stuff too small for bait even. They make

soups of these.

" You boil water - throw in a handful. " Then they add veggies.

There is a lotta stuff in that store - totally unfamiliar. I don't know if

they eat it or soak their feet in it (literally). Dried chrysanthemum?

The bottom line is there could be many things that cause their longer life.

Well, another thing is they're mostly SE Asian, rather than Japanese, in

that particular area. Another store appears to be more Chinese. A few

Japanese. But the foods are mostly the same.

Next time you go in one, look for beans. Lotsa soy.

Regards

Re: [ ] Re: Back to Methionine

> >>The other thing is the longest lived, the Japanese, supposedly eat lot

of

> fish.

>

> Hey JW,

>

> This fairly new study from the NY Academy Of Sciences went back and

> documented what the long lived Okinawans ate before 1950, when we began

> to westernize the island.

>

>

> The fish intake was estimated to be around 15 grams a day, or the

> equivalent of 1/2 oz a day.

>

> Caloric Restriction, the Traditional

> Okinawan Diet, and Healthy Aging

> The Diet of the World’s Longest-Lived People and Its Potential Impact on

> Morbidity and Life Span

> Ann. N.Y. Acad. Sci. 1114: 434–455 (2007).

>

>

> TABLE 1. Traditional dietary intake of Okinawans and other Japanese

> circa 1950

>

> Total calories 1785

> Total weight (grams) 1262

> Caloric density (calories/gram) 1.4

> Total protein in grams (% total calories) 39 (9)

> Total carbohydrate in grams (% total calories) 382 (85)

> Total fat in grams (% total calories) 12 (6)

> Saturated fatty acid 3.7

> Monounsaturated fatty acid 3.6

> Polyunsaturated fatty acid 4.8

> Total fiber (grams) 23

>

> Food group Weight in grams (% total calories)

>

> Grains

> Rice 154 (12)

> Wheat, barley, and other grains 38 (7)

> Nuts, seeds <1 (<1)

> Sugars 3 (<1)

> Oils 3 (2)

> Legumes (e.g., soy and other beans) 71 (6)

> Fish 15 (1)

> Meat (including poultry) 3 (<1)

> Eggs 1 (<1)

> Dairy <1 (<1)

>

> Vegetables

> Sweet potatoes 849 (69)

> Other potatoes 2 (<1)

> Other vegetables 114 (3)

> Fruit <1 (<1)

> Seaweed 1 (<1)

> Pickled vegetables 0 (0)

> Foods: flavors & alcohol 7 (<1)

>

> Data derived from analysis of U.S. National Archives, archived food

> records, 1949 and based on survey of 2279 persons.

>

> Regards

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

I'm often struck by the conflicts in information. If you read individual

accounts of visits to various areas of the world they often do not agree.

Poor people eat whatever they have to eat and if they live near an ocean

they tend to eat seafood.

A " documentary " on PBS showed them feeding monks (well the

had simple orange robes on). The stew included shrimp, quail's eggs, and

each monk got one of the eggs. It did not appear to be a setup, but other

parts showing pork, chicken eaten by the people could have been.

In any case, measuring how much meth intake and relating that to a general

lifespan is not possible.

So how can I believe any of these studies?

I must resort to logic, and logic tells me that if I eat less food, I will

generate less oxidation products. And that fact is not constrained by having

to start young, go to the right temple, eat weird stuff, take supplements,

whatever.

The brain needs cysteine, and the body does not make it.

Regards

[ ] Re: Back to Methionine

Back to Methionine

Posted by: " citpeks " citpeks@... citpeks

Tue Jul 1, 2008 1:12 pm (PDT)

Rodney,

Since vegetarian diets are naturally lower in methionine than more

omnivorous diets, it seems to me that if just restricting methionine

resulted in increased longevity, we would already have many examples

of vegetarian centenarians.

The fact that we don't see too many Buddhist monks achieve centenarian

status is a strong indicator that methionine restriction is not likely

to be the best path to longevity.

Do you have any statistics about vegetarian/vegan longevity or mortality?

Tony

---------------------

Hi Tony

I also think back of my early years when exposed to Catholic

contemplative monks, the Carthusians. Their diet is very simple

and vegetarian. It does include eggs and dairy, except during

religious fasts that last sometimes for months at a time. I think

the monks there die healthy but from a life of simplicity and

denial. Their life is actually quite austere, the most rigorous

of any order.

If there is any point I may be trying to make is that the monks are

not obsessed with how long they can live. They celebrate, however,

when someone has been able to live a long life in peace, harmony,

happiness, and die in a way that is concordant with that. They

are fascinated by elderly Buddhist practitioners that reach the

time when they are ready to die, and do so gracefully. That's a

life well lived, IMO.

Cheers,

Arturo

[Guest guest]

However the extra years of life of the Okinawans are healthy ones, in contrast to the final years of Americans who live with Alzheimer’s, Parkinsons, arthritis, cancer, and other crippling and painful chronic illnesses. Not a small thing.

In fact that is the main reason for my CRON practise; not necessarily for longer life, but for healthy life.

From: Rodney <perspect1111@...>

Reply-< >

Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 03:32:43 -0000

< >

Subject: [ ] Re: Back to Methionine

Hi JW:

True.

One way this might *possibly* be explained is this. As previously discussed, japanese males live only a few years longer than american males despite the apparently atrocious diet of americans and absolutely wonderful diet of the japanese. This includes a considerable degree of caloric restriction on the part of people in Japan (which, of course, we at consider to be a really major factor) in comparison with the obesity that seems now to be pretty much the norm in north America.

So it is a little surprising that the lifepans of the japanese are not much greater than they are, considering what we think we know about their dietary habits.

Maybe the japanese and okinawans would live much much longer than they do if they consumed a lot less of the methionine they get from fish ......... and took fish oil capsules instead, so as to get the benefits of the fish fat without the accelerated-aging effects of excessive methionone?

Of course I do not know this to be true. I am simply proposing a hypothesis to try to explain the data we see.

If anyone has serious evidence either for or against this proposition please post it.

Rodney.

> The other thing is the longest lived, the Japanese, supposedly > eat lot of fish.

>

> Regards

[Guest guest]

Hi Francesca:

Thank you. Interesting point. So, taking the logic a little further then (always remembering that logic can sometimes 'lead you up the garden path'!) perhaps by this line of reasoning, too much methionine doesn't cause the 'diseases of aging', but instead just raises the rate of aging?

While CRON prevents the diseases of aging.

So CRON with low methionine ................... maybe(!)?

Rodney.> > > The other thing is the longest lived, the Japanese, supposedly > eat lot of> fish.> > > > Regards>