Guest guest Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Does she need to be at the low end of her BMI range? No of course she doesn’t need to be. But being obese ??? Strange as can be, IMHO. I found it quite a distraction . Suppose I was going to a lecture about exercise and a personal trainer was giving it (or someone at least very knowledgeable about the subject). Suppose that person was not very fit, in fact overweight or obese. Would I be shocked? You betcha. Sorry you were offended. But as for me, I’m still scratching my head. From: Hinkson Desmarais <jessicadesmarais@...> Reply-< > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:04:15 -0400 < > Subject: Re: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) Really? Is this comment necessary? Dr. 's presentation is clear and concise, quite successfully conveying the core issues and developments related to CR. Does one really need to be at the low end of their BMI range to speak eloquently and effectively on this topic? I think not. On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...> wrote: Ms may not be the best person to deliver this message. The picture does not fit the words. From: Al Pater <old542000@...> Reply-< > Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:35:51 -0700 (PDT) < > Subject: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) Hi All, Ricki seems to have referred to Weindruch as Weinberg, close to the beginning of the talk. It seemed that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucoregulation#Glucoregulation effects were most noted, paralleled with diabetes risk and incidence data. The mortality data, especially the age-related disease mortality data, was encouraging. Were the excess ad libitum diet animal " abdominal adenocarcinomas " colon cancers? Eating Less, Living Longer Ricki Colman, PhD, reviews the long-term health benefits of caloric restriction (CR) using data from a 20 year study in non-human primates at the Wisconsin National Primate Research Center. She outlines positive health changes associated with longevity including lower diabetes incidence, less age-associated loss of muscle mass, altered energy expenditures, and lower rates of obesity. http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & quality=high <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> 03/25/2009 -- Al Pater, alpater@... Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Canada Messenger for the Web BETA <http://ca.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Funnily enough, Koprowski, the man who discoverd the first polio vaccine, never had polio. Meanwhile, for centuries Caucasian foreigners have gone to Africa to explain its history and come away with awards and accolades. Most are not African-born and most never went back to Africa to raise generations of famil. They simply visited and then wrote their observations.No one blinks an eye at these achievements. This is the pattern of so-called "scholarship"...but let a smart, fat girl who is interested in how nutrition works open her mouth and she's a problem? I think not.Lucky for us, Dr. is VERY smart and seems dedicated to her research, despite criticism. Lucky for HER, she lives in a country where -- on paper at least -- it's not supposed to matter what you look like, so long as you are productive to society and you use your gifts to help others.Here's hoping the people who cure this latest outbreak of swine flu do not have to catch it first to get their props from modern day society..Alison From: fskelton@...Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:20:53 -0400Subject: [ ] Dr comment Does she need to be at the low end of her BMI range? No of course she doesn’t need to be. But being obese ??? Strange as can be, IMHO. I found it quite a distraction . Suppose I was going to a lecture about exercise and a personal trainer was giving it (or someone at least very knowledgeable about the subject). Suppose that person was not very fit, in fact overweight or obese. Would I be shocked? You betcha. Sorry you were offended. But as for me, I’m still scratching my head. From: Hinkson Desmarais <jessicadesmaraisgmail> Reply-< > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:04:15 -0400 < > Subject: Re: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) Really? Is this comment necessary? Dr. 's presentation is clear and concise, quite successfully conveying the core issues and developments related to CR. Does one really need to be at the low end of their BMI range to speak eloquently and effectively on this topic? I think not. On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Francesca Skelton <fskeltonerols> wrote: Ms may not be the best person to deliver this message. The picture does not fit the words. From: Al Pater <old542000 > Reply-< > Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:35:51 -0700 (PDT) < > Subject: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) Hi All, Ricki seems to have referred to Weindruch as Weinberg, close to the beginning of the talk. It seemed that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucoregulation#Glucoregulation effects were most noted, paralleled with diabetes risk and incidence data. The mortality data, especially the age-related disease mortality data, was encouraging. Were the excess ad libitum diet animal "abdominal adenocarcinomas" colon cancers? Eating Less, Living Longer Ricki Colman, PhD, reviews the long-term health benefits of caloric restriction (CR) using data from a 20 year study in non-human primates at the Wisconsin National Primate Research Center. She outlines positive health changes associated with longevity including lower diabetes incidence, less age-associated loss of muscle mass, altered energy expenditures, and lower rates of obesity. http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & quality=high <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> 03/25/2009 -- Al Pater, alpaterSHAW (DOT) ca Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Canada Messenger for the Web BETA <http://ca.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 If someone discovers a polio vaccine, touts it’s virtues to the scientific community, and then never takes the vaccine himself, I’d surely raise an eyebrow. That would seem to be the more apt comparison. What Dr looks like is her own business. But when she lectures about CR and its’ benefits, she’s the elephant in the room (no pun intended). From: Alison Murner <WetCat4@...> Reply-< > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:30:43 +0000 < > Subject: RE: [ ] Dr comment Funnily enough, Koprowski, the man who discoverd the first polio vaccine, never had polio. Meanwhile, for centuries Caucasian foreigners have gone to Africa to explain its history and come away with awards and accolades. Most are not African-born and most never went back to Africa to raise generations of famil. They simply visited and then wrote their observations. No one blinks an eye at these achievements. This is the pattern of so-called " scholarship " ...but let a smart, fat girl who is interested in how nutrition works open her mouth and she's a problem? I think not. Lucky for us, Dr. is VERY smart and seems dedicated to her research, despite criticism. Lucky for HER, she lives in a country where -- on paper at least -- it's not supposed to matter what you look like, so long as you are productive to society and you use your gifts to help others. Here's hoping the people who cure this latest outbreak of swine flu do not have to catch it first to get their props from modern day society. .. Alison From: fskelton@... Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:20:53 -0400 Subject: [ ] Dr comment Does she need to be at the low end of her BMI range? No of course she doesn’t need to be. But being obese ??? Strange as can be, IMHO. I found it quite a distraction . Suppose I was going to a lecture about exercise and a personal trainer was giving it (or someone at least very knowledgeable about the subject). Suppose that person was not very fit, in fact overweight or obese. Would I be shocked? You betcha. Sorry you were offended. But as for me, I’m still scratching my head. From: Hinkson Desmarais <jessicadesmarais@...> Reply-< > Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:04:15 -0400 < > Subject: Re: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) Really? Is this comment necessary? Dr. 's presentation is clear and concise, quite successfully conveying the core issues and developments related to CR. Does one really need to be at the low end of their BMI range to speak eloquently and effectively on this topic? I think not. On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Francesca Skelton <fskelton@...> wrote: Ms may not be the best person to deliver this message. The picture does not fit the words. From: Al Pater <old542000@...> Reply-< > Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:35:51 -0700 (PDT) < > Subject: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) Hi All, Ricki seems to have referred to Weindruch as Weinberg, close to the beginning of the talk. It seemed that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucoregulation#Glucoregulation effects were most noted, paralleled with diabetes risk and incidence data. The mortality data, especially the age-related disease mortality data, was encouraging. Were the excess ad libitum diet animal " abdominal adenocarcinomas " colon cancers? Eating Less, Living Longer Ricki Colman, PhD, reviews the long-term health benefits of caloric restriction (CR) using data from a 20 year study in non-human primates at the Wisconsin National Primate Research Center. She outlines positive health changes associated with longevity including lower diabetes incidence, less age-associated loss of muscle mass, altered energy expenditures, and lower rates of obesity. http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & quality=high <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> 03/25/2009 -- Al Pater, alpater@... Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Canada Messenger for the Web BETA <http://ca.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out. <http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 We have a high regard for thin bodies because a thin body indicates adherence to CR, and this is one of our main interests. I agree that it seems incongruous for an overweight person to make a presentation about Calorie Restriction. However, let us take a different perspective: Would you expect a lecturer about cancer to have the disease? I don't think so. Would the message about tuberculosis from a healthy doctor be less valuable than one from a sick doctor? Don't confuse the messenger with the content of the message. In this case, you may have to cover up the podium and just listen to the lecture and look at the slides. In my lifetime, I have met some very ugly people who had very bright ideas, and I learned to appreciate them for their mind. Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > Ms may not be the best person to deliver this message. �The picture > > does not fit the words. > > > > > > From: Al Pater <old542000@...> > > Reply-< > > > Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > < > > > Subject: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) > > > > > > � > > �� > > > > �� > > > > Hi All, > > � > > Ricki seems to have referred to Weindruch as Weinberg, close to the beginning > > of the talk. > > � > > It seemed that the > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucoregulation#Glucoregulation effects were most > > noted, paralleled with diabetes risk and incidence data. > > � > > The mortality data, especially the age-related disease mortality data, was > > encouraging. > > � > > Were the excess ad libitum diet animal " abdominal adenocarcinomas " colon > > cancers? > > � > > Eating Less, Living Longer > > > > Ricki Colman, PhD, reviews the long-term health benefits of caloric > > restriction (CR) using data from a 20 year study in non-human primates at the > > Wisconsin National Primate Research Center. She outlines positive health > > changes associated with longevity including lower diabetes incidence, less > > age-associated loss of muscle mass, altered energy expenditures, and lower > > rates of obesity. > > > > http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & quality=high > > <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> > > <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> > > > > 03/25/2009 > > > > > > -- Al Pater, alpater@... > > > > � > > > > Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Canada Messenger for > > the Web BETA <http://ca.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 I couldn't have said it better myself. There's a big difference between scholarship and personal discipline.MarcyOn May 19, 2009, at 6:30 PM, Alison Murner wrote:Funnily enough, Koprowski, the man who discoverd the first polio vaccine, never had polio. Meanwhile, for centuries Caucasian foreigners have gone to Africa to explain its history and come away with awards and accolades. Most are not African-born and most never went back to Africa to raise generations of famil. They simply visited and then wrote their observations.No one blinks an eye at these achievements. This is the pattern of so-called "scholarship"...but let a smart, fat girl who is interested in how nutrition works open her mouth and she's a problem? I think not.Lucky for us, Dr. is VERY smart and seems dedicated to her research, despite criticism. Lucky for HER, she lives in a country where -- on paper at least -- it's not supposed to matter what you look like, so long as you are productive to society and you use your gifts to help others.Here's hoping the people who cure this latest outbreak of swine flu do not have to catch it first to get their props from modern day society..Alison From: fskeltonerolsDate: Tue, 19 May 2009 17:20:53 -0400Subject: [ ] Dr commentDoes she need to be at the low end of her BMI range? No of course she doesn’t need to be. But being obese ??? Strange as can be, IMHO. I found it quite a distraction .Suppose I was going to a lecture about exercise and a personal trainer was giving it (or someone at least very knowledgeable about the subject). Suppose that person was not very fit, in fact overweight or obese. Would I be shocked? You betcha. Sorry you were offended. But as for me, I’m still scratching my head. From: Hinkson Desmarais <jessicadesmaraisgmail>Reply-< >Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:04:15 -0400< >Subject: Re: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) Really? Is this comment necessary? Dr. 's presentation is clear and concise, quite successfully conveying the core issues and developments related to CR. Does one really need to be at the low end of their BMI range to speak eloquently and effectively on this topic? I think not.On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Francesca Skelton <fskeltonerols> wrote: Ms may not be the best person to deliver this message. The picture does not fit the words.From: Al Pater <old542000 >Reply-< >Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:35:51 -0700 (PDT)< >Subject: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) Hi All, Ricki seems to have referred to Weindruch as Weinberg, close to the beginning of the talk. It seemed that the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucoregulation#Glucoregulation effects were most noted, paralleled with diabetes risk and incidence data. The mortality data, especially the age-related disease mortality data, was encouraging. Were the excess ad libitum diet animal "abdominal adenocarcinomas" colon cancers? Eating Less, Living LongerRicki Colman, PhD, reviews the long-term health benefits of caloric restriction (CR) using data from a 20 year study in non-human primates at the Wisconsin National Primate Research Center. She outlines positive health changes associated with longevity including lower diabetes incidence, less age-associated loss of muscle mass, altered energy expenditures, and lower rates of obesity.http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & quality=high <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> 03/25/2009-- Al Pater, alpaterSHAW (DOT) ca Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Canada Messenger for the Web BETA<http://ca.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php> Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 In a message dated 5/19/2009 8:18:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fskelton@... writes: If someone discovers a polio vaccine, touts it’s virtues to the scientific community, and then never takes the vaccine himself, I’d surely raise an eyebrow. That would seem to be the more apt comparison.What Dr looks like is her own business. But when she lectures about CR and its’ benefits, she’s the elephant in the room (no pun intended). Exactly. This definitely IS the more apt comparison. Elephant in the room describes it well. If someone is smart enough to make a significant contribution to the scientific community then surely he or she should be smart enough to take advantage of that significant information themselves. Not to do so certainly would raise questions concerning the lecturer's confidence in the validity of the information that was being presented. Sandy Dell Inspiron 15 Laptop: Now in 6 vibrant colors! Shop Dell's full line of laptops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 In a message dated 5/19/2009 8:01:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, WetCat4@... writes: Here's hoping the people who cure this latest outbreak of swine flu do not have to catch it first to get their props from modern day society..Alison Of course one would not have to have the flu itself to invent a vaccine. But if someone should invent a supposedly safe and effective vaccine to prevent swine flu wouldn't it seem rather strange if they did not choose to take advantage of it themself? It certainly would seem strange to me and perhaps cause me to question it's safety and effectiveness. That same logic could certainly make people question an obviously overweight person like Dr. lecturing on the benefits of CR. Dell Inspiron 15 Laptop: Now in 6 vibrant colors! Shop Dell's full line of laptops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009  >Exactly. This definitely IS the more apt comparison. Elephant in >the room describes it well. If >someone is smart enough to make >a significant contribution to the scientific community then surely >he or she should be smart enough to take advantage of that significant >information themselves. Not to do so certainly would raise questions >concerning the lecturer's confidence in >the validity of the >information that was being presented.>>Sandy That's not true either. Think of how often we read papers on calorie restriction that end with a comment to the effect of it not being a viable option for humans because of its difficulty! People's willpower and addictive personalities vary considerably, and knowing something logically does not make it easier. Think too of smokers, alcoholics, etc., who are fully cognizant of what harm they're doing to themselves, yet have not been able to stop. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Well, one must not overlook the addictive nature of substances: alcohol, drugs, food, etc. Unfortunately, some people use food for comfort, depression, etc. Someone with a weight problem has most likely not exercised the consistent daily discipline to follow a restrictive diet of any kind. If following a diet were like getting a haircut, once every few weeks, probably everyone in the world would be a perfect weight. The daily discipline is simply too much for some people. But again, scholarship and dietary discipline are quite different from each other. It's wonderful that Dr. has the courage to lecture about something that is so important to society, in spite of her own obvious shortcomings. I guess it would be similar to lecturing about mountain climbing as a form of healthful exercise, but the lecturer can't do that activity herself because she's afraid of heights!On May 20, 2009, at 9:21 AM, Islandblue36@... wrote:In a message dated 5/19/2009 8:18:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, fskeltonerols writes:If someone discovers a polio vaccine, touts it’s virtues to the scientific community, and then never takes the vaccine himself, I’d surely raise an eyebrow. That would seem to be the more apt comparison.What Dr looks like is her own business. But when she lectures about CR and its’ benefits, she’s the elephant in the room (no pun intended).Exactly. This definitely IS the more apt comparison. Elephant in the room describes it well. If someone is smart enough to make a significant contribution to the scientific community then surely he or she should be smart enough to take advantage of that significant information themselves. Not to do so certainly would raise questions concerning the lecturer's confidence in the validity of the information that was being presented. SandyDell Inspiron 15 Laptop: Now in 6 vibrant colors! Shop Dell's full line of laptops.= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 I do realize that not all experts on calorie restriction practice CR themselves. However, except for Dr, , I've never seen or known of one who is actually OVERweight. It was definitely a distraction to me and I'm still surprised that some on the list think it is OK. If a doctor lecturing on the dangers of smoking was smoking himself during the presentation apparently some of you would excuse him because of his "addiction". Sandy In a message dated 5/20/2009 11:36:17 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truepatriot@... writes: That's not true either. Think of how often we read papers on calorie restriction that end with a comment to the effect of it not being a viable option for humans because of its difficulty! People's willpower and addictive personalities vary considerably, and knowing something logically does not make it easier. Think too of smokers, alcoholics, etc., who are fully cognizant of what harm they're doing to themselves, yet have not been able to stop. Dell Inspiron 15 Laptop: Now in 6 vibrant colors! Shop Dell's full line of laptops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Judging by the fury of some responses I get the feeling we’re mixing apples and oranges. I detest society’s dictums that women must be model thin which is what I suspect is the issue here for some respondents . Nor do I require Dr herself, to be on CR. But I would like someone who is lecturing about nutrition to be somewhere near normal weight. If she expounded on the subject of tobacco causing lung cancer, and we knew her to be a smoker, would that be OK too? After all it’s hard to quit smoking! And tobacco is more addictive than heroin. I suspect that if some of our frequent posters (Jeff? Rod? Me?) turned out to weigh 400 pounds, many of you would have some sort of reaction – or at least surprise. In Jeff’s case, he works at the Pritikin Center. If I were his client, I’d certainly want him to look the part. Fat kills!! However YMMV, Each to his own. From: citpeks <citpeks@...> Reply-< > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 00:16:22 -0000 < > Subject: [ ] Re: Dr comment We have a high regard for thin bodies because a thin body indicates adherence to CR, and this is one of our main interests. I agree that it seems incongruous for an overweight person to make a presentation about Calorie Restriction. However, let us take a different perspective: Would you expect a lecturer about cancer to have the disease? I don't think so. Would the message about tuberculosis from a healthy doctor be less valuable than one from a sick doctor? Don't confuse the messenger with the content of the message. In this case, you may have to cover up the podium and just listen to the lecture and look at the slides. In my lifetime, I have met some very ugly people who had very bright ideas, and I learned to appreciate them for their mind. Tony > > > > > > > > > > > > Ms may not be the best person to deliver this message. ï¿∏The picture > > does not fit the words. > > > > > > From: Al Pater <old542000@...> > > Reply-< <mailto: %40> > > > Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:35:51 -0700 (PDT) > > < <mailto: %40> > > > Subject: [ ] VIDEO: Non Human primate presentation (38 minutes) > > > > > > ï¿∏ > > ï¿∏ï¿∏ > > > > ï¿∏ï¿∏ > > > > Hi All, > > ï¿∏ > > Ricki seems to have referred to Weindruch as Weinberg, close to the beginning > > of the talk. > > ï¿∏ > > It seemed that the > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucoregulation#Glucoregulation effects were most > > noted, paralleled with diabetes risk and incidence data. > > ï¿∏ > > The mortality data, especially the age-related disease mortality data, was > > encouraging. > > ï¿∏ > > Were the excess ad libitum diet animal " abdominal adenocarcinomas " colon > > cancers? > > ï¿∏ > > Eating Less, Living Longer > > > > Ricki Colman, PhD, reviews the long-term health benefits of caloric > > restriction (CR) using data from a 20 year study in non-human primates at the > > Wisconsin National Primate Research Center. She outlines positive health > > changes associated with longevity including lower diabetes incidence, less > > age-associated loss of muscle mass, altered energy expenditures, and lower > > rates of obesity. > > > > http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & quality=high <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high> > > <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;amp;quality=high> > > > <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;quality=high <http://videos.med.wisc.edu/videoInfo.php?videoid=8118 & amp;amp;quality=high> > > > > > 03/25/2009 > > > > > > -- Al Pater, alpater@... > > > > ï¿∏ > > > > Instant message from any web browser! Try the new Canada Messenger for > > the Web BETA <http://ca.messenger./webmessengerpromo.php> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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