Re: +Re: Regarding high protein diets

[Guest guest]

> =

> I am surprised on why the scientific community is not looking into the

credibility of the raw food diet.

>

Actually, the have looked at it and there are many studies on the raw food

diet..

http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/links-out/raw-research.shtml

and an overview of the movement..

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1a.shtml

What the raw food movement is good at is misrepresenting science, including 2 of

the main studies they base their philosophy on...

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1h.shtml#pottengers

http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-1i.shtml#leukocytosis

> I am apt to think from reviewing CR meal plans that some of the benefits of CR

can be attributed to increasing the amount of raw food products

>

You would have to me more specific about what benefits you are speaking of, and

how raw food directly increased them. Most of the benefit of the raw food

movement do not come from the percentage of raw foods but from 1) the exclusion

of many of the harmful aspects of the typical Western diet including the high

amounts of processed, refined foods, salt, sugar, cholesterol, sat fat etc. 2)

the inclusion of many nutrient rich plant based foods fruits, veggies, etc., of

which they would benefit regardless if they were raw or not 3) the decrease in

caloric intake that accompanies their diet due to its much lower calorie

density.

Cooking has several advantages including increasing thee bioavailability of some

vitamins and antioxidants are increased by cooking. Cooking carrots and

tomatoes increases the absorption of some of the antioxidants they contain. Many

foods contain antinutrient factors that are destroyed by cooking.

What the raw food movement needs to do to gain credibility is to show their diet

(80% raw food) is superior than the same exact diet with 80% cooked). That has

yet to be done.

Jeff

> and vice versa as well as raw foodists might be naturally doing CR.

> PS How do you make the spinach & flax tortillas it sounds intriguing.

> -Thanks HM

>

>

> >

> > Hello -

> >

> > I've done both the raw food and CRON diet and found the raw food diet very

> > healthy for me.

> >

> > NOTE: " Raw food diet " is a misnomer. Even the most heated raw foodie (Dr.

> > Cousins) advocates not more than 80% of the diet to be raw. One can be

> > considered a raw foodie is anywhere from 50% to 80% of their diet is raw. If

> > salads are a big part of your daily intake, as they are for a lot of people

> > on this list, you maybe " raw " already.

> >

> > The upshot is, you can be raw and have cooked tomatoes (to get lycopene)

> > too!

> >

> > Some of the recipes are ingeniously high in nutrients, for example, the

> > spinach tortillas made from raw spinach and flax meal. The diet is high in

> > fiber, good fats from nuts and seeds and generally low glycemic unless you

> > go for raw honey deserts and such. My triglycerides went from high to under

> > 100.

> >

> > The downside is the learning curve for prepping the food, buying the

> > dehydrator and juicer, and it can be high fat (because of the nuts and

> > seeds) though that would be up to you.

> >

> > YMMV but speaking as one lab rat, I never feel better than when eating raw.

> > I don't keep it up because I have a family to cook for who want their

> > standard American diet. It's just too damn hard to cook and " not cook " every

> > meal.

> >

> > There are a number of recipe books. My fav is from Cafe Gratitude.

> >

> > Best of luck,

> >

> > Andie

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > You would have to me more specific about what benefits you are speaking of,

and how raw food directly increased them.

>

> Elimination of asthma (that ranged from severe to mild), sinus problems,

allergies, gastritis (confirmed by endoscopy) and skeletal aches and pains. CRON

alone did not alleviate these health problems. I also tried CRON + Dean Ornish's

low fat plan. Didn't do it for me. Another reason I stopped raw was because of

the high reliance on seeds and nuts, high in fat...big no no according to

Ornish.

>

While I appreciate your personal experience, many of which have also been seen

in those on cooked food diets, my comment was not about your personal experience

but about the benefits CR has been shown to have in most all the animal its been

tested in over the last 75 years. You said

> I am apt to think from reviewing CR meal plans that some of the benefits of CR

can be attributed to increasing the amount of raw food products

So, my comment/question is much more specific about how it is the raw food that

is the reason and not the CR.

Again, we would have to have subjects follow 2 identical CR diets, one being

mostly cooked and one being mostly raw to prove what you are saying.

While we are all " one rats " in a way, there is a collective body of evidence of

how CR works in animals. Raw is not responsible for these changes as even in

some of the animals some of their CR diets have been anything but raw and

unprocessed.

Thanks

Jeff

[Guest guest]

This reminds me of the argument that vegetarians often make: that a veggie diet is “healthier” than non-veggie. (Studies have shown that health=conscious meat/fish eaters live just as long as vegetarians. In fact fish/poultry eaters have a slight edge over others. It’s all in our files. And of course the fish/poultry is “cooked” :=)

On 6/5/10 10:12 PM, " Novick " <jnovickrd@...> wrote:

>

> > You would have to me more specific about what benefits you are speaking of, and how raw food directly increased them.

>

> Elimination of asthma (that ranged from severe to mild), sinus problems, allergies, gastritis (confirmed by endoscopy) and skeletal aches and pains. CRON alone did not alleviate these health problems. I also tried CRON + Dean Ornish's low fat plan. Didn't do it for me. Another reason I stopped raw was because of the high reliance on seeds and nuts, high in fat...big no no according to Ornish.

>

While I appreciate your personal experience, many of which have also been seen in those on cooked food diets, my comment was not about your personal experience but about the benefits CR has been shown to have in most all the animal its been tested in over the last 75 years. You said

> I am apt to think from reviewing CR meal plans that some of the benefits of CR can be attributed to increasing the amount of raw food products

So, my comment/question is much more specific about how it is the raw food that is the reason and not the CR.

Again, we would have to have subjects follow 2 identical CR diets, one being mostly cooked and one being mostly raw to prove what you are saying.

While we are all " one rats " in a way, there is a collective body of evidence of how CR works in animals. Raw is not responsible for these changes as even in some of the animals some of their CR diets have been anything but raw and unprocessed.

Thanks

Jeff

[Guest guest]

This reminds me of the argument that vegetarians often make: that a veggie diet is “healthier” than non-veggie. This is important.We have so many claims being made by vegetarians, vegans, raw fooders, etc etc that while it may be possible to show these groups have some advantages, we have to clarify whether or not the advantage is due to the claims they make. For instance, it has been shown that a 7th Day Adventist male in CA lives about 7 yrs longer than a non 7th Day Adventist male in CA. Of course, all of these groups want to say it is because they are vegetarians, and more specifically, their specific type of vegetarian and/or vegan diet. However, only about 50% of 7th Day Adventists are vegetarians and most of them include dairy products and eggs. In addition, while their dietary habits were important, the main reasons for their better longevity is their lack of smoking, drinking, increased activity and close social networks. Am J Clin Nutr 1999; 70(suppl): 532S-538SIf we take a typical Westerner following a typical Western diet and lifestyle which is sedentary and full of refined, processed foods, low in fiber, nutrients, phytochemicals, antioxidants, essential fats, and high in calories, sat fat, cholesterol, salt, sugar, oils, etc and move them to a much healthier diet and lifestyle, and have them be more active and then tweak their healthier diet to be either vegetarian, vegan and or raw, where is the real benefit?So, take 5 subjects (A, B, C, D, E) all eating the toxic Western diet.Have 4 (A, B, C, D) of the subjects move to a healthier diet making all the above changes (including reducing calories) I mention and leave one of them on the Western diet (E)Subject A follows the diet with a very small amount of dairy per day (1 serving) and a small amount of animal protein per day week. (similar to Pritikin/Ornish)Subject B does the same thing as subject A with the dairy but eliminates the animal protein. (a healthy form of Lacto veg)Subject C does the same thing as Subject B, but also eliminates all animal protein.(a healthy form of vegan)Subject D does the same thing as Subject C but now makes their diet raw (a healthy form of raw).Subjects A, B, C, D all do dramatically better than Subject A, with little differences between the 4 groups.Where was the benefit?As of now, we have each group claiming their health benefit is due to their version of the change (lacto, veg, vegan, raw) , but the real benefit is not from the remaining few items in the diet but from all the major changes they made in the rest of their dietsNow, under the heading of full disclosure, this criticism of the debate comes from an almost life long vegetarian and very l/t vegan. :)Jeff(Studies have shown that health=conscious meat/fish eaters live just as long as vegetarians. In fact fish/poultry eaters have a slight edge over others. It’s all in our files. And of course the fish/poultry is “cooked” :=)

On 6/5/10 10:12 PM, " Novick" <jnovickrd > wrote:

>

> > You would have to me more specific about what benefits you are speaking of, and how raw food directly increased them.

>

> Elimination of asthma (that ranged from severe to mild), sinus problems, allergies, gastritis (confirmed by endoscopy) and skeletal aches and pains. CRON alone did not alleviate these health problems. I also tried CRON + Dean Ornish's low fat plan. Didn't do it for me. Another reason I stopped raw was because of the high reliance on seeds and nuts, high in fat...big no no according to Ornish.

>

While I appreciate your personal experience, many of which have also been seen in those on cooked food diets, my comment was not about your personal experience but about the benefits CR has been shown to have in most all the animal its been tested in over the last 75 years. You said

> I am apt to think from reviewing CR meal plans that some of the benefits of CR can be attributed to increasing the amount of raw food products

So, my comment/question is much more specific about how it is the raw food that is the reason and not the CR.

Again, we would have to have subjects follow 2 identical CR diets, one being mostly cooked and one being mostly raw to prove what you are saying.

While we are all "one rats" in a way, there is a collective body of evidence of how CR works in animals. Raw is not responsible for these changes as even in some of the animals some of their CR diets have been anything but raw and unprocessed.

Thanks

Jeff

[Guest guest]

> Subjects A, B, C, D all do dramatically better than Subject A, with little

differences between the 4 groups.

>

> Where was the benefit?

Oppps!! That should say... subject E and not subject A..

" Subjects A, B, C, D all do dramatically better than Subject " E " , with little

differences between the 4 groups. "

Jeff

>

>