Guest guest Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 If it were me taking it I would do spiro first due to its much longer track record. If I developed side effects on lowest dose needed to control BP and K I would then go to Inspra. If that failed even when DASHing to the max I would consider AVS, esp if a bump was present on a CT. If no bump I would try combinations of other meds-added to Inspra and DASH. My most likely combo would be Lotrel and Ziac and titrate up. Would then consider adding minoxidil. CE Grim MDOn Jan 15, 2012, at 10:08 PM, wrote: Dr. Grim, let me be a little more direct. If you had no restrictions which MCB would you RX? Do you feel one will work fster than the other? - 65 yo super ob., fastidious male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with DASH. Stats w/o meds = BP 175/90 HR 59 BS 125. D/C Spironolactone 12/20/2011 due to adverse SX. Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, Gynecomastia, MDD and PTSD. Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg aspirin and Metformin 2000MG. Started washing Spironolactone 12/20/11 to prepare for AVS. > > > So, from what I see on the internet...Epler is expensive, Spiro is > > cheap. Epler is selective, Spiro has been around longer, both seem > > to have a long list of possible side effects and there's a study > > that says that Epler is not more effective with supression of aldo. > > So, what's the story? What's everyone's preference? Any side effects > > that most have? What do I need to know? My cardio will give me > > either. My choice, what do I want? > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 If MCBs and DASH etc do not control BP, K and symptoms then would do AVS. But would expect cure rate to be lower even with localization as it is very likely that what is on one side is on the other. CE Grim MDOn Jan 16, 2012, at 5:34 AM, Francis Bill SUSPECTED PA wrote: Do you recommend having a scan before doing AVS? If scan showed bump in both sides would you still have AVS? > > > > > > > So, from what I see on the internet...Epler is expensive, Spiro is > > > > cheap. Epler is selective, Spiro has been around longer, both seem > > > > to have a long list of possible side effects and there's a study > > > > that says that Epler is not more effective with supression of > > aldo. > > > > So, what's the story? What's everyone's preference? Any side > > effects > > > > that most have? What do I need to know? My cardio will give me > > > > either. My choice, what do I want? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 The longer the better is my rule. If I were in in charge I would only allow a new med on if it was show to be better than an old on. Currently they only need to show they are not inferior. So lots of me too drugs to market and pay for. Let's see Premarin was god's to women based on circumstantial evidence and good physiological reasoning for nearly 50 years before the Women's Health Study Randomized trial demonstrated increase risk of stroke MI AND PE (as I recall). The exact opposite of the proposed protection proposed by the professors and marketers of pregnant mares pungent pee. May your pressure be low!CE Grim MS, MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertensionOn Jan 16, 2012, at 17:07, <jclark24p@...> wrote: How long a track record do you normally require? (I'm surprised the picture isn't becoming clear after 10 years!) An item 60 years old is not necessarialy better than something 10 years old. in fact it is often the opposite! Does this have any bearing on your choices? Update in Primary Aldosteronism Stowasser http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/94/10/3623.long The authors concluded that the two drugs were of similar efficacy in reducing BP in patients with PA (24). With such data now available, the restrictions still imposed by health regulatory bodies in most countries against subsidized use of eplerenone for the treatment of PA may hopefully soon be lifted. I also found this summary and wondered how that impacted Table 1 Adverse events reported most frequently with eplerenone Adverse event Rate (%) of adverse event Hyperkalemia (K+ >5.5 mEq/L) 33% (eplerenone alone) 38% (eplerenone and enalapril) Hypertriglyceridemia 15% Hyponatremia 2.3% Mastodynia 0.8% (men) Abnormal vaginal bleeding 0.6% (women) Gynecomastia 0.5% (men) As you might have guessed, the gynecomastia number really caught my eye since I've seen that number in the 50% range for Spironolactone! Someday they will need to take QOL issues into consideration! - 65 yo super ob., fastidious male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with DASH. Stats w/o meds = BP 175/90 HR 59 BS 125. D/C Spironolactone 12/20/2011 due to adverse SX. Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, Gynecomastia, MDD and PTSD. Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg aspirin and Metformin 2000MG. Started washing Spironolactone 12/20/11 to prepare for AVS. > > > > > > > So, from what I see on the internet...Epler is expensive, Spiro is > > > > cheap. Epler is selective, Spiro has been around longer, both seem > > > > to have a long list of possible side effects and there's a study > > > > that says that Epler is not more effective with supression of > > aldo. > > > > So, what's the story? What's everyone's preference? Any side > > effects > > > > that most have? What do I need to know? My cardio will give me > > > > either. My choice, what do I want? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Good points but when I mention the diff in cost many go for Spiro. Actually Premarin turned out to be worse than nothing or at least worse than the sugar pill placebo that was used. So 50 years of bad advice based on hearsay and logical thinking. Some might even say magical thinking. May your pressure be low!CE Grim MS, MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertensionOn Jan 17, 2012, at 7:47, <jclark24p@...> wrote: Doesn't "me too" meds drive competition in the free market? If I apply your logic to the automobile industry, should there only be one brand! I know absolutely nothing about Premarin but is there something new and better developed after 50 years? Was it better than the alternative, nothing! To bring this back to the subject at hand. If you found a medicine, maybe originally developed for transgender therapy, did a remarkable job treating Conn's Syndrome you would probably use it. In fact, over time you found it worked so well you might recommend it as the treatment of choice, with DASH of course! (Boobs, so what - they are better than than a MI aren't they! Ladies, not to leave you out, your's is probably "just Middle Aged Woman's Syndrome"!) After 50 years, same timeframe as Premarin, somebody comes up with medicine that may work as well but without the sexual side effects. You recommend it as a second therapy after you find out you have screwed up the PTN's hormonal system. Now I wonder what would hppen if we reversed the order. Would PTN be more willing to try meds and DASH since it probably the best form of treatment and less invasive? Would people be more complient? Would treatment provide a better QOL? What the heck, let's not rush into anything. Give it another 10 or 15 years "trial" and then maybe we will give it a trial. - 65 yo super ob., fastidious male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with DASH. Stats w/o meds = BP 175/90 HR 59 BS 125. D/C Spironolactone 12/20/2011 due to adverse SX. Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, Gynecomastia, MDD and PTSD. Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg aspirin and Metformin 2000MG. Started washing Spironolactone 12/20/11 to prepare for AVS. > > > > > > > > > > > So, from what I see on the internet...Epler is expensive, Spiro is > > > > > > cheap. Epler is selective, Spiro has been around longer, both seem > > > > > > to have a long list of possible side effects and there's a study > > > > > > that says that Epler is not more effective with supression of > > > > aldo. > > > > > > So, what's the story? What's everyone's preference? Any side > > > > effects > > > > > > that most have? What do I need to know? My cardio will give me > > > > > > either. My choice, what do I want? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (10) .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Just to keep the record accurate: The WHI found that women on horse pee (Premarin) had a slight (but not significant) decrease in the incidence of breast cancer. Women on the combination Premarin and a synthetic progestin had a slightly higher (and significant) increase in breast cancer. It can be concluded in that study that the synthetic progestin was the culprit. The stroke problem was found in women who went many years between meno and getting estrogen. Those who went on estrogen early did not have the same incidence. Also, transdermal 17 beta-estradiol has no history of stroke. The problem is they continue studying the non-human forms of estrogen and a progestin. I don't know of a single soul who takes those, and I know lots of women on transdermal estrogen. They will pry it out of my cold dead hands. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim Actually Premarin turned out to be worse than nothing or at least worse than the sugar pill placebo that was used. So 50 years of bad advice based on hearsay and logical thinking. Some might even say magical thinking. On Jan 17, 2012, at 7:47, <jclark24p@...> wrote: Doesn't " me too " meds drive competition in the free market? If I apply your logic to the automobile industry, should there only be one brand! I know absolutely nothing about Premarin but is there something new and better developed after 50 years? Was it better than the alternative, nothing!To bring this back to the subject at hand. If you found a medicine, maybe originally developed for transgender therapy, did a remarkable job treating Conn's Syndrome you would probably use it. In fact, over time you found it worked so well you might recommend it as the treatment of choice, with DASH of course! (Boobs, so what - they are better than than a MI aren't they! Ladies, not to leave you out, your's is probably " just Middle Aged Woman's Syndrome " !)After 50 years, same timeframe as Premarin, somebody comes up with medicine that may work as well but without the sexual side effects. You recommend it as a second therapy after you find out you have screwed up the PTN's hormonal system. Now I wonder what would hppen if we reversed the order. Would PTN be more willing to try meds and DASH since it probably the best form of treatment and less invasive? Would people be more complient? Would treatment provide a better QOL? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 I would not waste time on the cortisol issue(s) and Spiro etc.But only my Opinion. May your pressure be low!CE Grim MS, MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertensionOn Jan 17, 2012, at 12:04, <jclark24p@...> wrote: And what is Vioxx? I tried to Google it and only got as far as "V-I" and " Secret" came up. I forgot what I was looking for! I finally remembered, after I remembered my testosterone level, and looked at it. It soon became apparent that it was a cash cow for some lawyers because of the greed of a manufacturer (Merck), IMHO. I suspect the outcome would have been much different if they had changed labeling as directed and initiated some negative testing when questions first rose! This comment brought a flashback: "Merck plans to appeal the $253.4 verdict jurors awarded on August 19 to Ernst's widow, Carol. The award reflects a combination of her husband's lost pay as a Wal-Mart produce manager, their mental anguish, her loss of companionship and punitive damages." When I was in Vietnam a friend ran over a civilian and killed him. He settled for the expected lost earnings of the man, $52 U.S.! OH wait, I see he was a Walmart employee, maybe they make more than I think. With all the hungry lawyers I probably don't have time to look at every lawsuit, in fact, I don't even care unless it involves some of the uncessary meds that I took for years, Can I sue them because they should have been labeled, "Will not work with PA"! Now, do you have any specifics on the subject at hand? Eplerenone (Lasix). I'm specifically looking for information on Cortisol and anything that might have a bearing on MDD. - 65 yo super ob., fastidious male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with DASH. Stats w/o meds = BP 175/90 HR 59 BS 125. D/C Spironolactone 12/20/2011 due to adverse SX. Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, Gynecomastia, MDD and PTSD. Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg aspirin and Metformin 2000MG. Started washing Spironolactone 12/20/11 to prepare for AVS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, from what I see on the internet...Epler is expensive, Spiro is > > > > > > > > cheap. Epler is selective, Spiro has been around longer, both seem > > > > > > > > to have a long list of possible side effects and there's a study > > > > > > > > that says that Epler is not more effective with supression of > > > > > > aldo. > > > > > > > > So, what's the story? What's everyone's preference? Any side > > > > > > effects > > > > > > > > that most have? What do I need to know? My cardio will give me > > > > > > > > either. My choice, what do I want? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 If I am not mistaken Premarin still sells. May your pressure be low!CE Grim MS, MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertensionOn Jan 17, 2012, at 14:05, Valarie <val@...> wrote: Just to keep the record accurate: The WHI found that women on horse pee (Premarin) had a slight (but not significant) decrease in the incidence of breast cancer. Women on the combination Premarin and a synthetic progestin had a slightly higher (and significant) increase in breast cancer. It can be concluded in that study that the synthetic progestin was the culprit. The stroke problem was found in women who went many years between meno and getting estrogen. Those who went on estrogen early did not have the same incidence. Also, transdermal 17 beta-estradiol has no history of stroke. The problem is they continue studying the non-human forms of estrogen and a progestin. I don't know of a single soul who takes those, and I know lots of women on transdermal estrogen. They will pry it out of my cold dead hands. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim Actually Premarin turned out to be worse than nothing or at least worse than the sugar pill placebo that was used. So 50 years of bad advice based on hearsay and logical thinking. Some might even say magical thinking. On Jan 17, 2012, at 7:47, <jclark24p@...> wrote: Doesn't "me too" meds drive competition in the free market? If I apply your logic to the automobile industry, should there only be one brand! I know absolutely nothing about Premarin but is there something new and better developed after 50 years? Was it better than the alternative, nothing!To bring this back to the subject at hand. If you found a medicine, maybe originally developed for transgender therapy, did a remarkable job treating Conn's Syndrome you would probably use it. In fact, over time you found it worked so well you might recommend it as the treatment of choice, with DASH of course! (Boobs, so what - they are better than than a MI aren't they! Ladies, not to leave you out, your's is probably "just Middle Aged Woman's Syndrome"!)After 50 years, same timeframe as Premarin, somebody comes up with medicine that may work as well but without the sexual side effects. You recommend it as a second therapy after you find out you have screwed up the PTN's hormonal system. Now I wonder what would hppen if we reversed the order. Would PTN be more willing to try meds and DASH since it probably the best form of treatment and less invasive? Would people be more complient? Would treatment provide a better QOL? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Remind me of what MDD means MDD. May your pressure be low!CE Grim MS, MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertensionOn Jan 17, 2012, at 20:11, <jclark24p@...> wrote: How many patients have you treated with MDD? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, from what I see on the internet...Epler is expensive, Spiro is > > > > > > > > > > cheap. Epler is selective, Spiro has been around longer, both seem > > > > > > > > > > to have a long list of possible side effects and there's a study > > > > > > > > > > that says that Epler is not more effective with supression of > > > > > > > > aldo. > > > > > > > > > > So, what's the story? What's everyone's preference? Any side > > > > > > > > effects > > > > > > > > > > that most have? What do I need to know? My cardio will give me > > > > > > > > > > either. My choice, what do I want? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 I have followed a number of patients with these. Problems I don't choose to adjust meds in most as not my area I'd expertise. Don't recall seeing a pt with PA WITH MDD as a major problem. Did have a or with schizophrenia who's K got so low from PA SHE BECAME unable to move and was thought to BR catatonic. Removed one if our largest ADENOMAS 2 Cm as I recall. She could walk again but still had schizo. The most rewarding thing has been the improvement in mood seen with med or surG management of PA. MANY NOT as dramatic as seen here because we picked up the PA EARLY. May your pressure be low!CE Grim MS, MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertensionOn Jan 18, 2012, at 7:01, <jclark24p@...> wrote: Major depressive disorder ( MDD) (also known as recurrent depressive disorder, clinical depression, major depression, unipolar depression, or unipolar disorder) - 65 yo super ob., fastidious male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with DASH. Stats w/o meds = BP 175/90 HR 59 BS 125. D/C Spironolactone 12/20/2011 due to adverse SX. Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, Gynecomastia, MDD and PTSD. Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg aspirin and Metformin 2000MG. Started washing Spironolactone 12/20/11 to prepare for AVS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, from what I see on the internet...Epler is expensive, Spiro is > > > > > > > > > > > > che Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Premarin still sells but I have no idea who buys it; I guess women whose docs are years behind. Val From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim If I am not mistaken Premarin still sells. On Jan 17, 2012, at 14:05, Valarie <val@...> wrote: Just to keep the record accurate: The WHI found that women on horse pee (Premarin) had a slight (but not significant) decrease in the incidence of breast cancer. Women on the combination Premarin and a synthetic progestin had a slightly higher (and significant) increase in breast cancer. It can be concluded in that study that the synthetic progestin was the culprit. The stroke problem was found in women who went many years between meno and getting estrogen. Those who went on estrogen early did not have the same incidence. Also, transdermal 17 beta-estradiol has no history of stroke. The problem is they continue studying the non-human forms of estrogen and a progestin. I don't know of a single soul who takes those, and I know lots of women on transdermal estrogen. They will pry it out of my cold dead hands. From: hyperaldosteronism [mailto:hyperaldosteronism ] On Behalf Of Clarence Grim Actually Premarin turned out to be worse than nothing or at least worse than the sugar pill placebo that was used. So 50 years of bad advice based on hearsay and logical thinking. Some might even say magical thinking. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 So, it also might be a case with spiro :-) ????? Natalia From: Clarence Grim <lowerbp2@...> "hyperaldosteronism " <hyperaldosteronism > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:02 PM Subject: Re: Re: Spiro or Epler Good points but when I mention the diff in cost many go for Spiro. Actually Premarin turned out to be worse than nothing or at least worse than the sugar pill placebo that was used. So 50 years of bad advice based on hearsay and logical thinking. Some might even say magical thinking. May your pressure be low!CE Grim MS, MDSpecializing in DifficultHypertensionOn Jan 17, 2012, at 7:47, <jclark24p@...> wrote: Doesn't "me too" meds drive competition in the free market? If I apply your logic to the automobile industry, should there only be one brand! I know absolutely nothing about Premarin but is there something new and better developed after 50 years? Was it better than the alternative, nothing! To bring this back to the subject at hand. If you found a medicine, maybe originally developed for transgender therapy, did a remarkable job treating Conn's Syndrome you would probably use it. In fact, over time you found it worked so well you might recommend it as the treatment of choice, with DASH of course! (Boobs, so what - they are better than than a MI aren't they! Ladies, not to leave you out, your's is probably "just Middle Aged Woman's Syndrome"!) After 50 years, same timeframe as Premarin, somebody comes up with medicine that may work as well but without the sexual side effects. You recommend it as a second therapy after you find out you have screwed up the PTN's hormonal system. Now I wonder what would hppen if we reversed the order. Would PTN be more willing to try meds and DASH since it probably the best form of treatment and less invasive? Would people be more complient? Would treatment provide a better QOL? What the heck, let's not rush into anything. Give it another 10 or 15 years "trial" and then maybe we will give it a trial. - 65 yo super ob., fastidious male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with DASH. Stats w/o meds = BP 175/90 HR 59 BS 125. D/C Spironolactone 12/20/2011 due to adverse SX. Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, Gynecomastia, MDD and PTSD. Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg aspirin and Metformin 2000MG. Started washing Spironolactone 12/20/11 to prepare for AVS. > > > > > > > > > > > So, from what I see on the internet...Epler is expensive, Spiro is > > > > > > cheap. Epler is selective, Spiro has been around longer, both seem > > > > > > to have a long list of possible side effects and there's a study > > > > > > that says that Epler is not more effective with supression of > > > > aldo. > > > > > > So, what's the story? What's everyone's preference? Any side > > > > effects > > > > > > that most have? What do I need to know? My cardio will give me > > > > > > either. My choice, what do I want? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (10) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Ah right as we have no proper trial to demonstrate that, on the average, people with PA are healthier and or live loner in the long run using spiro vs nothing or other BP meds.  Clarence E. Grim, BS, MS, MD Specializing in Primary Aldosteronism, Difficult High Blood Pressure and recent evolutionary forces on high blood pressure in populations today. On Jan 23, 2012, at 06:25 PM, Natalia Kamneva <natalia_kamneva@...> wrote: > So, it also might be a case with spiro :-) ????? > > Natalia > From: Clarence Grim <lowerbp2@...> > " hyperaldosteronism " <hyperaldosteronism@groupscom> > Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:02 PM > Subject: Re: Re: Spiro or Epler > > > Good points but when I mention the diff in cost many go for Spiro. > Actually Premarin turned out to be worse than nothing or at least worse than the sugar pill placebo that was used. So 50 years of bad advice based on hearsay and logical thinking. Some might even say magical thinking. > > > > May your pressure be low! > > CE Grim MS, MD > Specializing in Difficult > Hypertension > > On Jan 17, 2012, at 7:47, <jclark24p@...> wrote: > > >> >> Doesn't " me too " meds drive competition in the free market? If I apply your logic to the automobile industry, should there only be one brand! I know absolutely nothing about Premarin but is there something new and better developed after 50 years? Was it better than the alternative, nothing! >> >> To bring this back to the subject at hand. If you found a medicine, maybe originally developed for transgender therapy, did a remarkable job treating Conn's Syndrome you would probably use it. In fact, over time you found it worked so well you might recommend it as the treatment of choice, with DASH of course! (Boobs, so what - they are better than than a MI aren't they! Ladies, not to leave you out, your's is probably " just Middle Aged Woman's Syndrome " !) >> >> After 50 years, same timeframe as Premarin, somebody comes up with medicine that may work as well but without the sexual side effects. You recommend it as a second therapy after you find out you have screwed up the PTN's hormonal system. Now I wonder what would hppen if we reversed the order. Would PTN be more willing to try meds and DASH since it probably the best form of treatment and less invasive? Would people be more complient? Would treatment provide a better QOL? >> >> What the heck, let's not rush into anything. Give it another 10 or 15 years " trial " and then maybe we will give it a trial. >> >> - 65 yo super ob., fastidious male - 12mm X 13mm rt. a.adnoma with previous rt. flank pain. Treating with DASH. Stats w/o meds = BP 175/90 HR 59 BS 125. D/C Spironolactone 12/20/2011 due to adverse SX. >> Other Issues/Opportunities: OSA w Bi-Pap settings 13/19, DM2, Gynecomastia, MDD and PTSD. >> Meds: Duloxetine hcl 80 MG, Metoprolol Tartrate 200 MG, 81mg aspirin and Metformin 2000MG. Started washing Spironolactone 12/20/11 to prepare for AVS. >> >> >> >> > >> > The longer the better is my rule. If I were in in charge I would only allow a new med on if it was show to be better than an old on. Currently they only need to show they are not inferior. So lots of me too drugs to market and pay for. Let's see Premarin was god's to women based on circumstantial evidence and good physiological reasoning for nearly 50 years before the Women's Health Study Randomized trial demonstrated increase risk of stroke MI AND PE (as I recall). The exact opposite of the proposed protection proposed by the professors and marketers of pregnant mares pungent pee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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