Re: Crohn's disease

[Guest guest]

On Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 11:09 AM, seaorca@... wrote:

> I know the Maker's Diet is popular and probably sound, but please

> remember that Jordan Rubin is not a doctor. He has a naturopath degree

> from non-accredited institution in Puerto Rico (which is the only

> place he is licensed to practice naturopathy) and a nutrition degree

> from a non-accredited and now defunct " Academy " that was thrown out of

> Hawii for violations of consumer protection laws. Rubin may have cured

> himself, and diet may have played a role, but who's to say what role

> his mental states had to play as well. I would tend to believe a

> meta-analysis over one person's anicdotal story, particularly when

> they are trying to sell me dietary suppliments. But, hey, that's me

> and my traditional science background. The mental state is always a

> wildcard.

>

>

>

Didn't know that about him (his degree) and I do agree that mental

state is important...I guess I object to labeling crohn's disease as a

psychological disease because it has so many physical symptoms...and

from what I have read people with crohn's do respond favorably to diet

changes. I just think that a person with such a serious disease needs

to pay attention to their diet...I mean what do they have to lose? But

if they just think they can ignore their diet and overcome the disease

through mental control they may but themselves in serious danger. I

know what you mean about all the hype about selling the supplements and

stuff...

Sandy

[Guest guest]

--- In , <samack@c...>

wrote:

>I just think that a person with such a serious disease needs

> to pay attention to their diet...I mean what do they have to lose?

But

> if they just think they can ignore their diet and overcome the

disease

> through mental control they may but themselves in serious danger.

I heartily agree with you! I think careful attention to diet is a

cornerstone of health.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> I know the Maker's Diet is popular and probably sound, but

> please remember that Jordan Rubin is not a doctor. He has a

> naturopath degree from non-accredited institution in Puerto

> Rico (which is the only place he is licensed to practice

> naturopathy) and a nutrition degree from a non-accredited and

> now defunct " Academy " that was thrown out of Hawii for

> violations of consumer protection laws. Rubin may have cured

> himself, and diet may have played a role, but who's to say

> what role his mental states had to play as well. I would tend

> to believe a meta-analysis over one person's anicdotal story,

> particularly when they are trying to sell me dietary

> suppliments. But, hey, that's me and my traditional science

> background. The mental state is always a wildcard.

That was fascinating. Certainly makes me a little more attentive when I'm

reading his stuff. And his prices are just so completely outrageous. I

appreciate and respect the desire to make money, but good lord. His profit

margin must be 40%. Good for him, I suppose.

Ron

[Guest guest]

Irene-

>Huh? How is it a psychological illness? As I understand it, crohn's is

>diagnosed by colonoscopy. They check for lesions in the intestines. How is

>this classified as a psychological disease? I don't have it but I have

>friends that do.

It's fashionable nowadays to treat gut problems with

antidepressants. Crazy but true.

-

[Guest guest]

-

>I don't mean to offend anyone by suggesting something might be psychological

>in orgin - personally I find it empowering to think that we might have much

>more influence over our physical condition than if it was just down to the

>genes we were handed.

There's a whole other category of problem sources besides genes and mind:

external physical reality. In the case of Crohn's (and other bowel

diseases) this heavily involves diet.

-

[Guest guest]

Sandy-

>Didn't know that about him (his degree) and I do agree that mental

>state is important...I guess I object to labeling crohn's disease as a

>psychological disease because it has so many physical symptoms...and

>from what I have read people with crohn's do respond favorably to diet

>changes.

Yes, Crohn's responds very well to the SCD (Specific Carbohydrate

Diet). There's a sort of market pressure towards mental diagnoses of

problems like these because they exculpate crappy modern foods, pollutants,

etc.

-

[Guest guest]

On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 11:18 AM, Idol wrote:

> Yes, Crohn's responds very well to the SCD (Specific Carbohydrate

> Diet).  There's a sort of market pressure towards mental diagnoses of

> problems like these because they exculpate crappy modern foods,

> pollutants,

> etc.

> -

>

My friend's greatest problem in sticking to a diet such as this as it

is hard for him to eat enough calories. He needs 3000 calories a day

to maintain weight and he is a student and and has someone to cook his

dinners for him usually but needs easy breakfasts and lunches. He does

not have real kefir only store bought such as helios.

Sandy

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's fashionable nowadays to treat gut problems with

antidepressants. Crazy but true.

- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

When I got out of the hospital and was first experiencing some of the

secondary problems I was to have as a result of their botched efforts,

Gastroenterologists told me that I had " something called IBS " and that I

would never get over it and that I should take both Prevacid and Zoloft

antidepressants for life. (The Prevacid was for my " over-acid stomach " which

of course I later discovered was producing *no* acid..)

That said, a year later when I went away, alone, to a week long yoga retreat

(the first of its kind for me) I found that my digestive problems were

absolutely gone (except of course for the " no acid " problem). And it wasn't

just the yoga practice because the symptoms disappeared, it seemed, the

moment I got on the plane. I was great until I came back home to a rather

strained situation.

Anyway, it was remarkable and I now have to admit, that to at least some

degree, stress and my " head " do in fact contribute to IBS at least to some

degree. That's also where hormones might play a role?

I'd never tell that to my GI. I'm still angry with him!

~Robin

[Guest guest]

On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 11:05 AM, Idol wrote:

> Irene-

>

> >Huh?  How is it a psychological illness? As I understand it, crohn's

> is

> >diagnosed by colonoscopy. They check for lesions in the intestines.

> How is

> >this classified as a psychological disease? I don't have it but I have

> >friends that do.

>

> It's fashionable nowadays to treat gut problems with

> antidepressants.  Crazy but true.

> -

>

The gal the wrote the Body Ecology Diet talks about serotonin being

manufactured in the gut...maybe the antidepressants help because there

is a connection with the serotonin somehow? Not saying that it is the

right way to treat crohn's just maybe that explains any positive

results that may result. My daughter had warts and nothing touched

them she had them all over her hands for over a year. They burned

them, froze them, can't remember everything they did but finally they

gave her heart burn medicine and that did it...the warts were gone.

Sorry that really didn't relate in anyway just that a medicine that was

totally not connected in anyway helped...They said they didn't know why

it worked but sometimes it did.

Sandy

[Guest guest]

Sandy-

>My friend's greatest problem in sticking to a diet such as this as it

>is hard for him to eat enough calories. He needs 3000 calories a day

>to maintain weight and he is a student and and has someone to cook his

>dinners for him usually but needs easy breakfasts and lunches. He does

>not have real kefir only store bought such as helios.

Well, Helios is low-fat and with added FOS, so it's anything but healthy

and SCD-legal. I don't see why it should be that difficult to accumulate

3000 calories with a fatty diet, though.

-

[Guest guest]

On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 11:56 AM, Idol wrote:

> Well, Helios is low-fat and with added FOS, so it's anything but

> healthy

> and SCD-legal.  I don't see why it should be that difficult to

> accumulate

> 3000 calories with a fatty diet, though.

>

>

>

> -

>

>

I know the helios is not the best maybe no kefir is better than eating

helios? Well he is having trouble coming up with a diet. What would

you eat for breakfast that requires no cooking and is around 800

calories and fits the SCD?

Sandy

[Guest guest]

Crohn's is also effectively treated by ingesting parasites! A whopping 73%

remission

rate in one study. If it's caused by an immune response though, then anything

that affects the immune system would affect Crohn's, so the antidepressants

and anti-stress treatments make sense. The same is true for any allergies: they

tend to act up when the person is feeling stressed, because the immune

system goes into high-gear.

http://www.news-medical.net/?id=6855

By week 12, 22 patients experienced a significant improvement in symptom score,

and 19 patients had no symptoms at all. By week 24 the respective numbers had

climbed to 23 and 21.

This translates into a response rate of 80% and a remission rate of 73%, say the

authors. There was no indication that the helminth treatment had worsened

symptoms and there were no side effects. But patients taking drugs to suppress

the immune system at the same time tended to fare better

....

Crohn's disease is caused by an excessive immune response to normal gut

bacteria, and helminths suppress the immune response and consequently dampen

down inflammation.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

--- In , <samack@c...>

wrote:

> I know the helios is not the best maybe no kefir is better than eating

> helios? Well he is having trouble coming up with a diet. What would

> you eat for breakfast that requires no cooking and is around 800

> calories and fits the SCD?

Sandy,

Oh that's easy! would drink a pint of cream and wash that down

with 0.8 lb. of raw bison liver.

tell your friend to stick that in his pipe and smoke it...

B.

[Guest guest]

Well I guess I got caught up in symantics because I think that is different

than calling something a psychological disorder. In this case any illness

that is affected by the immune system or stress would be a psychological

disorder. That doesn't leave many illnesses out.

Having said that, if there really is some kind of psychological treatment

that helps I am all for it. However if it is just the case were sick people

are expected to " visualize " their illness away, then I have a problem. That

just causes feelings of inadequacy and guilt if they aren't able to do it.

Irene

At 10:59 AM 3/24/2005, you wrote:

>If it's caused by an immune response though, then anything

>that affects the immune system would affect Crohn's, so the antidepressants

>and anti-stress treatments make sense. The same is true for any allergies:

>they

>tend to act up when the person is feeling stressed, because the immune

>system goes into high-gear.

[Guest guest]

On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 01:59 PM, Heidi Schuppenhauer wrote:

> so the antidepressants

> and anti-stress treatments make sense. The same is true for any

> allergies: they

> tend to act up when the person is feeling stressed, because the immune

> system goes into high-gear.

>

I agree that stress plays a big part in lots of illnesses. My

cold-sores always pop out whenever I am under stress...

Sandy

[Guest guest]

On Thursday, March 24, 2005, at 02:38 PM, downwardog7 wrote:

> Sandy,

> Oh that's easy!  would drink a pint of cream and wash that down

> with 0.8 lb. of raw bison liver.

>

> tell your friend to stick that in his pipe and smoke it...

> B.

>

>

ROTFLOL!!! Don't think he would go for that one!

Sandy

[Guest guest]

>Well I guess I got caught up in symantics because I think that is different

>than calling something a psychological disorder. In this case any illness

>that is affected by the immune system or stress would be a psychological

>disorder. That doesn't leave many illnesses out.

>Having said that, if there really is some kind of psychological treatment

>that helps I am all for it. However if it is just the case were sick people

>are expected to " visualize " their illness away, then I have a problem. That

>just causes feelings of inadequacy and guilt if they aren't able to do it.

>Irene

And I agree with you there! I used to get migraines, which were

for years dismissed as purely psychological. Now they are known

to be triggered by allergies (and stress, and hormones ... ). Some

people DO in fact think most illness has a big psychological

component though, and our high stress level probably contributes

to just about all illnesses (and lack of sleep etc.).

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I am one of them. In fact I suspect all illness has a psychological

component. Although there are exceptions, it is really hard to attack

serious illnesses from that angle and make a major dent. Usually the

psychological angle is something that can help some but not as much as a

physical approach, meds, diet etc. Although there are famous exceptions, a

cancer disappears after the person leaves a bad marriage etc. Usually it is

more like, " breast cancer patients in support groups live X% longer after

diagnosis than those not in support groups " . Hardly a cure but I think lots

of people given the options would take the extra time. But who knows, maybe

there is more to this crohn's is a psychological disease thing. I guess

time will tell. For now I remain skeptical.

Irene

At 06:16 PM 3/24/2005, you wrote:

>And I agree with you there! I used to get migraines, which were

>for years dismissed as purely psychological. Now they are known

>to be triggered by allergies (and stress, and hormones ... ). Some

>people DO in fact think most illness has a big psychological

>component though, and our high stress level probably contributes

>to just about all illnesses (and lack of sleep etc.).

[Guest guest]

I was listening to my husband this morning talk about how he gave

himself ulcers by worrying too much, he doesn't really have ulcers it

was just a figure of speech because for years the doctors thought that

all ulcers were a psychological illness. I can imaging how

frustrating and emotionally discouraging that would be for someone to

have a bacterial infection in their stomach and being told if you could

just get a handle on your emotions then you would be well, when in

reality what they needed was a way to get rid of the bad bacteria in

their stomach. How demoralizing it would be to be expected to heal

yourself through your mental powers when you actually are in need of

some sort of cleansing to get rid of a bacteria. I think that is what

we were all reacting to yesterday when someone said crohn's was a

psychological illness.

Sandy

[Guest guest]

,

I am still waiting for your advice on a 800 calorie breakfast that

requires no cooking and fits SCD...while you are at it how about a

1000 calorie lunch no cooking involved. These college students want

something easy. I guess they don't think they have time to cook or

something.

Sandy

[Guest guest]

Sandy-

>I am still waiting for your advice on a 800 calorie breakfast that

>requires no cooking and fits SCD...while you are at it how about a

>1000 calorie lunch no cooking involved. These college students want

>something easy. I guess they don't think they have time to cook or

>something.

Sorry, I'm really busy so email is catch as catch can. A shake made out of

homemade (or even storebought if necessary) yoghurt or real kefir would fit

the bill nicely. Dump some yoghurt (make it with half cream and half milk

for more calories) and some egg yolks into a blender along with whatever

other ingredients are desired (vanilla, berries, sweetener, ice cubes,

etc.) and voila, a 5-minute meal.

Also, can he make a big batch of stew once a week? If so, that's lunch.

Just a couple quick ideas.

-

[Guest guest]

>Yeah, I am one of them. In fact I suspect all illness has a psychological

>component. Although there are exceptions, it is really hard to attack

>serious illnesses from that angle and make a major dent. Usually the

>psychological angle is something that can help some but not as much as a

>physical approach, meds, diet etc.

I disagree about there being some " exceptions " - I think lots of illnesses

can be treated with good psychotherapy. I think the problem is getting

" good " psychotherapy. I think diet can also be important, but think

medication is often over-rated and ineffective, although it definately has a

role in some illnesses.

Also, I'd like to clarify that I'm not claiming crohn's is a purely

psychological illness. I would want to read much more widely before I'd

feel in a position to state it was/wasn't a psychological illness. I just

wanted to point out that psychotherapy has been found to be an effective

treatment, which supports (doesn't prove) the claim that some people make

that it is a psychological illness.

[Guest guest]

I guess it would depend on what you mean by " treated by " . Every disease

would probably be helped by some psychotherapy. But as far as any major

improvements attributed solely to phsychotherapy, I just don't know anyone

who has done that. Although I am sure it has happened, and I have seen

these people on occasion at conferences, I have never met anyone

personally. I know the work with the Simontons although was well meaning,

it really caused a lot of pain for cancer patients with so many people

looking at them with the attitude: " So how did you create this for

yourself " . Not really helpful.

As far as meds go, yes drugs are overrated, but when they work, they work

and my problems didn't improve much until I got my thyroid and cortisone

meds no matter how much I meditated.

So anyway, if the research is really there for psychotherapy to really

improve crohns without drugs, hey I am all for it. I just hope it doesn't

turn into a Simonton thing. I think the caveat that it must be " good "

psychotherapy is OK as long as " good " psychotherapy is the norm rather than

the exception.

Irene

At 01:54 AM 3/26/2005, you wrote:

> >Yeah, I am one of them. In fact I suspect all illness has a psychological

> >component. Although there are exceptions, it is really hard to attack

> >serious illnesses from that angle and make a major dent. Usually the

> >psychological angle is something that can help some but not as much as a

> >physical approach, meds, diet etc.

>

>I disagree about there being some " exceptions " - I think lots of illnesses

>can be treated with good psychotherapy. I think the problem is getting

> " good " psychotherapy. I think diet can also be important, but think

>medication is often over-rated and ineffective, although it definately has a

>role in some illnesses.

>

>Also, I'd like to clarify that I'm not claiming crohn's is a purely

>psychological illness. I would want to read much more widely before I'd

>feel in a position to state it was/wasn't a psychological illness. I just

>wanted to point out that psychotherapy has been found to be an effective

>treatment, which supports (doesn't prove) the claim that some people make

>that it is a psychological illness.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

>I disagree about there being some " exceptions " - I think lots of illnesses

>can be treated with good psychotherapy. I think the problem is getting

> " good " psychotherapy. I think diet can also be important, but think

>medication is often over-rated and ineffective, although it definately has a

>role in some illnesses.

>

>

Psychotherapy does something else that is important too ... if it is a GOOD

therapist, they teach you to take control of your life. Which for some

of us, means something as simple as eating what is good for us,

even though the authority figures and our friends disagree.

I say this because someone I talked to knows Dr. Mercola, and

apparently only about 30% of people STICK to his diet. That is

about the same percentage as the number of folks who KNOW

they are celiac and actually eat a totally GF diet. One lady met

one of the 70% at work. She got diagnosed, stuck to the diet

for 10 years, then decided she wanted to " fit in more " . She

was on the stairs clutching her belly, smiling wanly " It's the price

I have to pay, y'know! " . She'd rather suffer than " be different " .

Anyway, I say this because back in my past I DID

have a good therapist, to help deal with the depression

I had constantly back then. He didn't actually cure the

depression ... a change in diet did, eventually ... but he

taught me to " take control " and not " go with the flow " ,

and to make plans, not be so impulsive. Those skills sure

are handy now!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Robin-

>Anyway, it was remarkable and I now have to admit, that to at least some

>degree, stress and my " head " do in fact contribute to IBS at least to some

>degree. That's also where hormones might play a role?

Stress of course plays an enormous role in everything. It lowers your

resistance to illness. It can even precipitate illness. But illness also

causes stress. And the simplistic conclusion that many people in the

medical and journalistic communities have jumped to, that certain illnesses

are therefore simply psychological and should be treated as mental

disorders, is tremendously harmful.

-