Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

May 7, 2012

You are certainly not the only instructor to encounter this! I often express to my husband that becoming a Marriage Counselor should be a pre-requistite to becoming an NFP Instructor. LOL I spend a quarter of a client's appointment time going over the actual charting, the rest we're talking about all the other things! Their discouragement at not conceiving or their frustrations with abstinence, etc. But I've learned to remember that my area of expertise is the method, I can help with that! It's what I'm there to do! It's not my job to fix the rest of what may be going on, though I can certainly be compassionate about it. The best I can do is listen, acknowledge their struggles, and remember to pray for them. The worst thing we can do as instructors is gloss over their difficulties and try to convince them that NFP is a picnic on a warm summer day with rose petals falling from the sky.The other single most helpful thing I've found I can do is just to be sincere if their problem is something I can relate to personally. "I completely understand. Times of abstinence have challenged us too. Some things that really helped us were...." or "Would you like to hear how we've grown as a result of that tough time? Would I go back and trade those difficult times with NFP for an easier go of it, and forfeit the growth it brought us as a couple? No way." At least they can walk away knowing they aren't alone, that someone cares, and (please God) with a sense of hope that whatever struggle they are having can be overcome.a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod From: millselaine@...Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 15:57:40 -0700Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Dear elaine, thank you for having the courage to voice this question. As a "lay" instructor does that mean you are an atheist? Even if you have no belief in God, can you not see a "design" regarding life in your work as a NFP Instructor?Oh no! By "lay" instructor I mean I am a layperson, not a medical professional- I am a volunteer for CCL. :)It is a subject that wives

bring up to me- usually their husbands are frustrated by their lack of responsiveness, etc... and they are frustrated by lack of interest during the infertile time. I don't know how to counsel them because we are faithful Catholics. I just know that it is a problem that DOES exist and the rote answers aren't always what the couples want to hear. They want compassion about this conundrum. The wife starts feeling like an object of her husband's sexual desire because she has no interest but he does... so she is charitable to his needs and feels resentful at the same time. I cannot be the only instructor that has had disgruntled couples with this issue!Elaine

May 7, 2012

Friends,I have read with interest the comments and am glad to read in everyone a concern about ethics and love because otherwise we loose the meaning (purpose) behind the NFP methods. Of course we need to speak about methods, but always keeping in mind the whole person, just as a does below and did a few days ago.

Les mentioned earlier the Theology of the Body. I am reading Waldenstein's introduction to a new edition of it (translation) and wish to share with you some notes I jotted down which can help us to keep the method(s) in perspective.

Cartesian rationalism (dualism) reduces the body to mere

mater without meaning. Kant accepts Descartes' thinking. For Kant the body is

outside the realm of the person and of meaning. For him sex is a

depersonalizing use of the spouse's body for enjoyment. Procreation is

incidental to sex.

II, based on St. of the Cross, understands

love as the gift of self, and the

archetype is the Trinity. The body has a spousal meaning. (Christ's love for

the Church reveals to man the meaning of spousal love).

II explains that the " order of nature "

is more than the " order of biology " . Modern man (since Bacon)

wishes to have power over nature (and removes " meaning " from it).

Biology (as it has developed) prevents us from understanding and living sex in

its fullest meaning. The goal of biology is to technically control nature

(matter) and actually ends up manipulating nature. The Majority report (1968)

that wanted VI to give legitimacy to contraception held that it was a duty

(God's will) that man control nature with technical means.

II indicates how in Humanae Vitae ( VI) the problem lies between dominion over the

forces of nature (HV, 2) and self-mastery (HV, 21). He argues that the fundamental

development of the human person should be measured by the second (ethics) not

the first.

The human person " is a body, " not merely " has

a body. " The body with its

own rich intrinsic meaning speaks the language of self-gift and fruitfulness,

whether the person intends it or not. The self-gift and fruitfulness are rooted

in the very nature of the body and therefore of the person because the person

is a body ( Waldenstein).

II teaches that the person, who is a unity of body

and soul, is the subject of his moral acts. In his Theology of the Body, he defends the body against it alienation in

Cartesian rationalism, and shows the divine plan for human spousal love.

According to Waldestein, the Pope shows the goodness and beauty of the whole

sexual sphere against its cheapening in the " objective, scientific "

way of looking at nature (according to Bacon). God's plan is renewed in Christ, redeemer of man, who

assumed a human nature and reveals to man the divine plan for human love.Fr.

On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 8:41 PM, NFP Lethbridge <nfplethbridge@...> wrote:

You are certainly not the only instructor to encounter this! I often express to my husband that becoming a Marriage Counselor should be a pre-requistite to becoming an NFP Instructor. LOL I spend a quarter of a client's appointment time going over the actual charting, the rest we're talking about all the other things! Their discouragement at not conceiving or their frustrations with abstinence, etc. But I've learned to remember that my area of expertise is the method, I can help with that! It's what I'm there to do! It's not my job to fix the rest of what may be going on, though I can certainly be compassionate about it. The best I can do is listen, acknowledge their struggles, and remember to pray for them. The worst thing we can do as instructors is gloss over their difficulties and try to convince them that NFP is a picnic on a warm summer day with rose petals falling from the sky.

The other single most helpful thing I've found I can do is just to be sincere if their problem is something I can relate to personally. " I completely understand. Times of abstinence have challenged us too. Some things that really helped us were.... " or " Would you like to hear how we've grown as a result of that tough time? Would I go back and trade those difficult times with NFP for an easier go of it, and forfeit the growth it brought us as a couple? No way. " At least they can walk away knowing they aren't alone, that someone cares, and (please God) with a sense of hope that whatever struggle they are having can be overcome.

a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

From: millselaine@...Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 15:57:40 -0700Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Dear elaine, thank you for having the courage to voice this question.

As a " lay " instructor does that mean you are an atheist? Even if you have no belief in God, can you not see a " design " regarding life in your work as a NFP Instructor?

Oh no! By " lay " instructor I mean I am a layperson, not a medical professional- I am a volunteer for CCL. :)It is a subject that wives

bring up to me- usually their husbands are frustrated by their lack of responsiveness, etc... and they are frustrated by lack of interest during the infertile time. I don't know how to counsel them because we are faithful Catholics. I just know that it is a problem that DOES exist and the rote answers aren't always what the couples want to hear. They want compassion about this conundrum. The wife starts feeling like an object of her husband's sexual desire because she has no interest but he does... so she is charitable to his needs and feels resentful at the same time.

I cannot be the only instructor that has had disgruntled couples with this issue!Elaine

-- Fr. R. Vélez765 14th Ave, Apt 1San Francisco, CA 94118Website: www.newmanbiography.com

May 7, 2012

Excellent summation. Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Dear elaine, thank you for having the courage to voice this question.

As a "lay" instructor does that mean you are an atheist? Even if you have no belief in God, can you not see a "design" regarding life in your work as a NFP Instructor?

Oh no! By "lay" instructor I mean I am a layperson, not a medical professional- I am a volunteer for CCL. :)It is a subject that wives

bring up to me- usually their husbands are frustrated by their lack of responsiveness, etc... and they are frustrated by lack of interest during the infertile time. I don't know how to counsel them because we are faithful Catholics. I just know that it is a problem that DOES exist and the rote answers aren't always what the couples want to hear. They want compassion about this conundrum. The wife starts feeling like an object of her husband's sexual desire because she has no interest but he does... so she is charitable to his needs and feels resentful at the same time.

I cannot be the only instructor that has had disgruntled couples with this issue!Elaine

-- Fr. R. VÃ©lez765 14th Ave, Apt 1San Francisco, CA 94118Website: www.newmanbiography.com

May 8, 2012

This is where the woman can be helped to see the sacrifice on her end. It helps the man make the strong sacrifice during the fertile time, if the woman makes the sacrifice during the infertile time.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Dear elaine, thank you for having the courage to voice this question.

As a "lay" instructor does that mean you are an atheist? Even if you have no belief in God, can you not see a "design" regarding life in your work as a NFP Instructor?

Oh no! By "lay" instructor I mean I am a layperson, not a medical professional- I am a volunteer for CCL.

It is a subject that wives

bring up to me- usually their husbands are frustrated by their lack of responsiveness, etc... and they are frustrated by lack of interest during the infertile time. I don't know how to counsel them because we are faithful Catholics. I just know that it is a problem that DOES exist and the rote answers aren't always what the couples want to hear. They want compassion about this conundrum. The wife starts feeling like an object of her husband's sexual desire because she has no interest but he does... so she is charitable to his needs and feels resentful at the same time.

I cannot be the only instructor that has had disgruntled couples with this issue!

Elaine

May 8, 2012

a,

Much more important than every woman's right to understand her fertility is her right to know God's plan for the proper use of her sexuality. The Great Commission of the Lord Jesus at his Ascension called for the apostles and their successors and co-workers to tell the Good News to the entire world, and to teach everything that he had commanded them. Romans 10 is highly applicable to the message of marital chastity. To paraphrase, How can people be saved unless they believe and act properly, and how can they believe unless someone tells them...?

The Church is in a horrible crisis today, and much of the problem is that too many bishops and priests and others have treated the teaching of HV with benign neglect. Unfortunately, with all the talk about the Obama theft of First Amendment rights from Catholics, the bishops have continued their relative silence on the moral, psychological, and physical evils of the contraceptive drugs etc. to be given free to everyone who wants them. At the same time, the leaders of the Church are calling for a New Evangelization in which Catholics and others will become aware that it is Jesus Himself who is the Author of the teachings of the Church.

The subject matter of the NFP movement is at the heart of the sexuality crisis in the world, and a biology-only approach is no longer sufficient, if it ever was. Participation in this movement is a privilege, and it is also a call to exercise the New Evangelization. This is not the time to hide under a bushel basket the very light that leads us.

Everyone has a God-given right to know that sexual intercourse is intended by God to be exclusively a marriage act between heterosexual spouses married to each other. Everyone has a right to know that the marriage act ought to reaffirm the original marriage covenant.

Everyone has a God-given right to know about Ecological Breastfeeding, the kind of breastfeeding that really does provide a natural, abstinence-free, spacing of babies.

Everyone has a God-given right to know the common, easily taught and detected signs of fertility and infertility.

And everyone has a right and a need to know that, despite Judas and his spiritual descendants, the Lord Jesus did give us a visible and tangible way of knowing the truth about the meaning of love and sexuality, namely, the Catholic Church led by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a guidance promised repeatedly at the Last Supper. That's part of the New Evangelization to which all Catholics are called.

Peace.

F KippleyNFP Internationalwww.NFPandmore.org"Sex and the Marriage Covenant: A Basis for Morality" (Ignatius)

RE: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Though the Billings's themselves were Catholic, I don't believe any of the materials on the actual method include theology. The philosophy of the Billings Ovulation Method is that every woman is entitled to the knowledge of her fertility, so religion is not a part of the instruction in this method.This is the most current edition of the book:http://www.penguin.com.au/products/9781876026455/billings-method-using-body-s-natural-signal-fertility-achieve-or-avoid-pregnaThere is also plenty of information on the local and international websites.http://www.boma-usa.orghttp://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

May 8, 2012

Dear , well said. I would just like to also suggest that many of us in the medical community (present company excluded) should have stood up with Priests and Bishops and helped them better understand the medical harms of contraception. I mean everyone was raving about how great the pill was. I can only imagine how alone they must have felt. I feel we should have supported our Priests and Bishops more. For example, if you look at the number of Catholic Medical Association doctors in 1960 pre-HV there were almost 10,000. In 1970, that number had dwindled to just 1,000. Contraception had shaken our confidence in the Wisdom of our Church.It is never too late. Let us stand now with Our Church during the upcoming Fortnight of Freedom...Blessings, rebeccaSent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: " Kippley" <jfkippley@...>Sender: Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 13:53:18 -0400< >Reply Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods a, Much more important than every woman's right to understand her fertility is her right to know God's plan for the proper use of her sexuality. The Great Commission of the Lord Jesus at his Ascension called for the apostles and their successors and co-workers to tell the Good News to the entire world, and to teach everything that he had commanded them. Romans 10 is highly applicable to the message of marital chastity. To paraphrase, How can people be saved unless they believe and act properly, and how can they believe unless someone tells them...? The Church is in a horrible crisis today, and much of the problem is that too many bishops and priests and others have treated the teaching of HV with benign neglect. Unfortunately, with all the talk about the Obama theft of First Amendment rights from Catholics, the bishops have continued their relative silence on the moral, psychological, and physical evils of the contraceptive drugs etc. to be given free to everyone who wants them. At the same time, the leaders of the Church are calling for a New Evangelization in which Catholics and others will become aware that it is Jesus Himself who is the Author of the teachings of the Church. The subject matter of the NFP movement is at the heart of the sexuality crisis in the world, and a biology-only approach is no longer sufficient, if it ever was. Participation in this movement is a privilege, and it is also a call to exercise the New Evangelization. This is not the time to hide under a bushel basket the very light that leads us. Everyone has a God-given right to know that sexual intercourse is intended by God to be exclusively a marriage act between heterosexual spouses married to each other. Everyone has a right to know that the marriage act ought to reaffirm the original marriage covenant. Everyone has a God-given right to know about Ecological Breastfeeding, the kind of breastfeeding that really does provide a natural, abstinence-free, spacing of babies. Everyone has a God-given right to know the common, easily taught and detected signs of fertility and infertility. And everyone has a right and a need to know that, despite Judas and his spiritual descendants, the Lord Jesus did give us a visible and tangible way of knowing the truth about the meaning of love and sexuality, namely, the Catholic Church led by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a guidance promised repeatedly at the Last Supper. That's part of the New Evangelization to which all Catholics are called. Peace. F KippleyNFP Internationalwww.NFPandmore.org"Sex and the Marriage Covenant: A Basis for Morality" (Ignatius) RE: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods Though the Billings's themselves were Catholic, I don't believe any of the materials on the actual method include theology. The philosophy of the Billings Ovulation Method is that every woman is entitled to the knowledge of her fertility, so religion is not a part of the instruction in this method.This is the most current edition of the book:http://www.penguin.com.au/products/9781876026455/billings-method-using-body-s-natural-signal-fertility-achieve-or-avoid-pregnaThere is also plenty of information on the local and international websites.http://www.boma-usa.orghttp://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

May 8, 2012

Thank you for your input. Excellent thoughts for my discernment, to be sure.a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod From: jfkippley@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 13:53:18 -0400Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

a,

Much more important than every woman's right to understand her fertility is her right to know God's plan for the proper use of her sexuality. The Great Commission of the Lord Jesus at his Ascension called for the apostles and their successors and co-workers to tell the Good News to the entire world, and to teach everything that he had commanded them. Romans 10 is highly applicable to the message of marital chastity. To paraphrase, How can people be saved unless they believe and act properly, and how can they believe unless someone tells them...?

The Church is in a horrible crisis today, and much of the problem is that too many bishops and priests and others have treated the teaching of HV with benign neglect. Unfortunately, with all the talk about the Obama theft of First Amendment rights from Catholics, the bishops have continued their relative silence on the moral, psychological, and physical evils of the contraceptive drugs etc. to be given free to everyone who wants them. At the same time, the leaders of the Church are calling for a New Evangelization in which Catholics and others will become aware that it is Jesus Himself who is the Author of the teachings of the Church.

The subject matter of the NFP movement is at the heart of the sexuality crisis in the world, and a biology-only approach is no longer sufficient, if it ever was. Participation in this movement is a privilege, and it is also a call to exercise the New Evangelization. This is not the time to hide under a bushel basket the very light that leads us.

Everyone has a God-given right to know that sexual intercourse is intended by God to be exclusively a marriage act between heterosexual spouses married to each other. Everyone has a right to know that the marriage act ought to reaffirm the original marriage covenant.

Everyone has a God-given right to know about Ecological Breastfeeding, the kind of breastfeeding that really does provide a natural, abstinence-free, spacing of babies.

Everyone has a God-given right to know the common, easily taught and detected signs of fertility and infertility.

And everyone has a right and a need to know that, despite Judas and his spiritual descendants, the Lord Jesus did give us a visible and tangible way of knowing the truth about the meaning of love and sexuality, namely, the Catholic Church led by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a guidance promised repeatedly at the Last Supper. That's part of the New Evangelization to which all Catholics are called.

Peace.

F KippleyNFP Internationalwww.NFPandmore.org"Sex and the Marriage Covenant: A Basis for Morality" (Ignatius)

RE: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Though the Billings's themselves were Catholic, I don't believe any of the materials on the actual method include theology. The philosophy of the Billings Ovulation Method is that every woman is entitled to the knowledge of her fertility, so religion is not a part of the instruction in this method.This is the most current edition of the book:http://www.penguin.com.au/products/9781876026455/billings-method-using-body-s-natural-signal-fertility-achieve-or-avoid-pregnaThere is also plenty of information on the local and international websites.http://www.boma-usa.orghttp://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

May 8, 2012

One and all,The human phenomenon ( my attempt to speak naturally without reference to religion which some may wish to exclude in these arguments) we have all experienced. Speaking personally as the oldest of ninety first cousins who has grown older, much older, I frequently recall my childhood experiences and enjoy observing the same with today's children, those in our grade schools and other contacts. Nearly all of us can recall our precious childhood experiences and relationships ( or feel the pain of familial disappointments ) which we carry with us through the years. What would the world be without children? Why, perhaps, our creator delays our maturation, " growing up " , for so long. To bear a child, to raise a child, to love a child what other human experience compares? Does the sexual experience isolated from the generation of another life compare? By their fruits you shall know them as a child is father of the man and mother of the woman. Such is the cycle of the human phenomenon. Without a child a marriage is incomplete, nature is thwarted. Is there anything more sad than a married couple who suffer infertility while so many others are fearful of their fertility? Bearing children is as much a mystery as marriage, two becoming one. Why we should should respect the phenomenon with dignity. It is a mystery one would hope a man and a woman in a loving marriage would embrace without fear. Should there be any priority greater than this share in creation? What greater claim can a man make than, I am a father or a woman, I am a mother?

Fr. Tom Bartolomeo On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 6:23 PM, a V <nfplethbridge@...> wrote:

Thank you for your input. Excellent thoughts for my discernment, to be sure.a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Method

www.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

From: jfkippley@...

Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 13:53:18 -0400Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

a,

Much more important than every woman's right to understand her fertility is her right to know God's plan for the proper use of her sexuality. The Great Commission of the Lord Jesus at his Ascension called for the apostles and their successors and co-workers to tell the Good News to the entire world, and to teach everything that he had commanded them. Romans 10 is highly applicable to the message of marital chastity. To paraphrase, How can people be saved unless they believe and act properly, and how can they believe unless someone tells them...?

The Church is in a horrible crisis today, and much of the problem is that too many bishops and priests and others have treated the teaching of HV with benign neglect. Unfortunately, with all the talk about the Obama theft of First Amendment rights from Catholics, the bishops have continued their relative silence on the moral, psychological, and physical evils of the contraceptive drugs etc. to be given free to everyone who wants them. At the same time, the leaders of the Church are calling for a New Evangelization in which Catholics and others will become aware that it is Jesus Himself who is the Author of the teachings of the Church.

The subject matter of the NFP movement is at the heart of the sexuality crisis in the world, and a biology-only approach is no longer sufficient, if it ever was. Participation in this movement is a privilege, and it is also a call to exercise the New Evangelization. This is not the time to hide under a bushel basket the very light that leads us.

Everyone has a God-given right to know that sexual intercourse is intended by God to be exclusively a marriage act between heterosexual spouses married to each other. Everyone has a right to know that the marriage act ought to reaffirm the original marriage covenant.

Everyone has a God-given right to know about Ecological Breastfeeding, the kind of breastfeeding that really does provide a natural, abstinence-free, spacing of babies.

Everyone has a God-given right to know the common, easily taught and detected signs of fertility and infertility.

And everyone has a right and a need to know that, despite Judas and his spiritual descendants, the Lord Jesus did give us a visible and tangible way of knowing the truth about the meaning of love and sexuality, namely, the Catholic Church led by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a guidance promised repeatedly at the Last Supper. That's part of the New Evangelization to which all Catholics are called.

Peace.

F KippleyNFP Internationalwww.NFPandmore.org " Sex and the Marriage Covenant: A Basis for Morality " (Ignatius)

RE: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Though the Billings's themselves were Catholic, I don't believe any of the materials on the actual method include theology. The philosophy of the Billings Ovulation Method is that every woman is entitled to the knowledge of her fertility, so religion is not a part of the instruction in this method.This is the most current edition of the book:http://www.penguin.com.au/products/9781876026455/billings-method-using-body-s-natural-signal-fertility-achieve-or-avoid-pregna

There is also plenty of information on the local and international websites.http://www.boma-usa.orghttp://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/

a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

May 8, 2012

Fr Tom,

Or, your claim: "I am a priest."

That one is hard to beat. Thanks for taking the call.

Blessings.

Steve Koob

From: tom.bartolomeo@...Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 22:28:52 -0400Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

One and all,

The human phenomenon ( my attempt to speak naturally without reference to religion which some may wish to exclude in these arguments) we have all experienced. Speaking personally as the oldest of ninety first cousins who has grown older, much older, I frequently recall my childhood experiences and enjoy observing the same with today's children, those in our grade schools and other contacts. Nearly all of us can recall our precious childhood experiences and relationships ( or feel the pain of familial disappointments ) which we carry with us through the years. What would the world be without children? Why, perhaps, our creator delays our maturation, "growing up", for so long. To bear a child, to raise a child, to love a child what other human experience compares? Does the sexual experience isolated from the generation of another life compare? By their fruits you shall know them as a child is father of the man and mother of the woman. Such is the cycle of the human phenomenon. Without a child a marriage is incomplete, nature is thwarted. Is there anything more sad than a married couple who suffer infertility while so many others are fearful of their fertility? Bearing children is as much a mystery as marriage, two becoming one. Why we should should respect the phenomenon with dignity. It is a mystery one would hope a man and a woman in a loving marriage would embrace without fear. Should there be any priority greater than this share in creation? What greater claim can a man make than, I am a father or a woman, I am a mother?

Fr. Tom Bartolomeo

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 6:23 PM, a V <nfplethbridge@...> wrote:

Thank you for your input. Excellent thoughts for my discernment, to be sure.

a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

From: jfkippley@...

Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 13:53:18 -0400Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

a,

Much more important than every woman's right to understand her fertility is her right to know God's plan for the proper use of her sexuality. The Great Commission of the Lord Jesus at his Ascension called for the apostles and their successors and co-workers to tell the Good News to the entire world, and to teach everything that he had commanded them. Romans 10 is highly applicable to the message of marital chastity. To paraphrase, How can people be saved unless they believe and act properly, and how can they believe unless someone tells them...?

The Church is in a horrible crisis today, and much of the problem is that too many bishops and priests and others have treated the teaching of HV with benign neglect. Unfortunately, with all the talk about the Obama theft of First Amendment rights from Catholics, the bishops have continued their relative silence on the moral, psychological, and physical evils of the contraceptive drugs etc. to be given free to everyone who wants them. At the same time, the leaders of the Church are calling for a New Evangelization in which Catholics and others will become aware that it is Jesus Himself who is the Author of the teachings of the Church.

The subject matter of the NFP movement is at the heart of the sexuality crisis in the world, and a biology-only approach is no longer sufficient, if it ever was. Participation in this movement is a privilege, and it is also a call to exercise the New Evangelization. This is not the time to hide under a bushel basket the very light that leads us.

Everyone has a God-given right to know that sexual intercourse is intended by God to be exclusively a marriage act between heterosexual spouses married to each other. Everyone has a right to know that the marriage act ought to reaffirm the original marriage covenant.

Everyone has a God-given right to know about Ecological Breastfeeding, the kind of breastfeeding that really does provide a natural, abstinence-free, spacing of babies.

Everyone has a God-given right to know the common, easily taught and detected signs of fertility and infertility.

And everyone has a right and a need to know that, despite Judas and his spiritual descendants, the Lord Jesus did give us a visible and tangible way of knowing the truth about the meaning of love and sexuality, namely, the Catholic Church led by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, a guidance promised repeatedly at the Last Supper. That's part of the New Evangelization to which all Catholics are called.

Peace.

F KippleyNFP Internationalwww.NFPandmore.org"Sex and the Marriage Covenant: A Basis for Morality" (Ignatius)

RE: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Though the Billings's themselves were Catholic, I don't believe any of the materials on the actual method include theology. The philosophy of the Billings Ovulation Method is that every woman is entitled to the knowledge of her fertility, so religion is not a part of the instruction in this method.This is the most current edition of the book:http://www.penguin.com.au/products/9781876026455/billings-method-using-body-s-natural-signal-fertility-achieve-or-avoid-pregnaThere is also plenty of information on the local and international websites.http://www.boma-usa.orghttp://www.thebillingsovulationmethod.org/a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

May 9, 2012

Been mulling this over â€“ an effective way to procrastinate finishing grading (Iâ€™m really looking forward to getting the semester behind me â€“ it was a rough one inasmuch as just after the fall one ended I experienced a very bad shoulder injury, resulting a month and a half later in surgery that was only partially able to repair the damage, and then a long rehab process thatâ€™s still not complete and that will never get my right arm as fully functional as it used to be â€“ but the process of actually getting the last of the semesterâ€™s work done, like the process of physical therapy/rehab, can be a bit tedious) ...

I suspect that there are at least a couple of other ways â€“ in addition to the loss of the â€œhoneymoon effectâ€ and the physical barrier and behavioral disruption that go with condom use (i.e. in addition to the ways mentions below) â€“ in which contraceptive use might affect libido and/or a womanâ€™s (or manâ€™s!) assessment of her (or his) libido:

- Even if, say, OCPs rather than condoms are being used as a coupleâ€™s contraceptive method, so that it isnâ€™t a matter of having to deal with disruptive actions at the time of intercourse, there will still be the need for the woman to remember to take her pill daily and indeed at the right time each day. It doesnâ€™t seem like a big stretch to say that this could cause some degree of stress on her part â€“ and on her husbandâ€™s too â€“ regarding their â€œsex lifeâ€ especially â€“ that would affect their perception of the satisfaction (or lack thereof) that theyâ€™re getting from intercourse.

- Going back to the question of how NFP is different from contraception (including FA) â€“ I donâ€™t think itâ€™s first and foremost a matter of the attitude toward procreation per se (some contracepting couples might not be all that worried about having a baby â€“ some NFP-using couples might be very worried) â€“ but rather of the attitude toward the relationship between sex and procreation. Or put differently â€“ the attitude regarding how/why sex is a good thing. As I often say when teaching sexual morality â€“ with contraception, there is a lack of respect for this relationship, so that the couple (when not wanting to procreate for the time being) is willing to attack it in order to maximize pleasure; with NFP, something like the polar opposite of this is going on â€“ i.e. out of respect for this relationship the couple is willing to abstain from what would presumably be pleasurable acts (as the alternative to having sex anyway and attacking the relationship). But the more a couple is focused on pleasure as â€œtheâ€ significant thing about sexual intercourse, the more likely it is â€“ I would think (again, this doesnâ€™t seem to be a stretch) â€“ that they will worry that theyâ€™re not getting â€œenoughâ€ pleasure, i.e., that thereâ€™s something wrong with their libido (or that thereâ€™s more wrong with it than is normal).

I might add that none of these things â€“ neither those mentioned, nor those Iâ€™ve mentioned â€“ seems to be a psychological or psychiatric â€˜disorderâ€™ in what I think are the usual senses of those terms these days. In fact â€“ theyâ€™re something like a â€œnormalâ€ (or properly â€œorderedâ€) reaction to the situation in which contracepting couples have put themselves.

According to Aristotle, virtue can nearly be identified with happiness â€“ i.e. virtue is something like its own reward â€“ and vice its own punishment. I think that when we look at the â€œpsychologicalâ€ reactions to contraceptive use, weâ€™re likely seeing something like that principle in action. It isnâ€™t that one commits an act of vice/sin and then a separate punishment follows in the form of abnormal psychological distress â€“ itâ€™s that the psyche deals in a perfectly normal/healthy fashion with the act of vice/sin, namely, by experiencing feelings of stress, sadness, worry, and so on.

Furthermore, though, it seems likely that some people who use contraception will, at least for the most part, still notice the sexual pleasure that is provided by their frequent acts of intercourse â€“ will not realize that they are experiencing sadness and so on â€“ will maybe even simply not be experiencing these emotions in any terribly meaningful sense. Likewise, some people who refrain from using contraception will experience some stress/sadness/etc. either because of the challenges of abstaining from intercourse, or the worry that the method will not be as effective as seems to be needed (or the fact that the NFP use was not in fact effective) in postponing/avoiding pregnancy (when there really is a serious reason for this), or whatever ... and this stress/etc. will detract from the experience of marital intercourse. (As Iâ€™ve said before â€“ in this life the only thing that we are promised is in fact the Cross â€“ which doesnâ€™t mean we will never be happy â€“ just that some components of happiness, especially physical and emotional ones, are not promised to us here, such that we could say that if we donâ€™t experience those components, God has somehow gone back on a promise â€“ or on the other hand that when we see someone committing acts of vice/sin, but still apparently experiencing at least the physical/emotional elements of happiness, we canâ€™t say that God has gone back on a promise either.)

Does this mean that the natural moral law isnâ€™t enforced? Yes and no. On the one hand, itâ€™s interesting that enforcement/punishment doesnâ€™t seem to be an element of Aquinasâ€™ definition of â€˜law,â€™ however much we might be used to thinking that enforcement is (at least part) of the essence of law (and this isnâ€™t to say that Aquinas doesnâ€™t think that enforcement ever has anything important to do with law). And, again, I donâ€™t think itâ€™s the case that actions contrary to this moral law are generally punished in a way that can be neatly distinguished from the violations themselves (in the way that when it comes to human law and its enforcement/punishment we could distinguish between, say, an act of murder on the one hand and the subsequent imprisonment or other punishment on the other hand).

At the same time, though, I think that for Aristotle and Aquinas at least, it can be said, again, that virtue is something like its own reward, and vice its own punishment, inasmuch as virtue is in a certain sense happiness, and vice, the opposite of happiness. Or put differently â€“ and taking into account that Aristotleâ€™s Greek word (eudaimonia) and Aquinasâ€™ Latin word (beatitudo) donâ€™t translate entirely well as â€œhappinessâ€ â€“ one could say that virtue, of itself, makes one more fully oneself (i.e. a human person), and vice of itself makes one less fully oneself (human). ... And also that this might often, though not inevitably, be something that is experienced through normal/healthy physical and/or psychological mechanisms.

(Thus, as Iâ€™ve said before, I think that the question of the relationship between contraception on the one hand, and physical/emotional issues, e.g., but not only, regarding libido, on the other, need to be approached primarily via rigorous â€“ in both the collection and the analysis of data â€“ empirical scientific and/or social-scientific study, rather than primarily via philosophical or theological a prioris, inasmuch as the latter approach tends not to be especially good philosophy or theology, at least insofar as Aristotle/Aquinas can be taken as â€œmeasuresâ€ of good phil/theo.)

KM

From: Fehring,

Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 5:33 PM

Subject: RE: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

To reinforce what Dr. Hanna Klaus mentioned that the brain is the most powerful sex organ, a the turn of the 19th to the 20th century -- research studies on women's attitudes as to when their libido was the highest -- it was around the menses. At that time many (including scientists/physicians) thought that ovulation occurred around that time -- if I can find the actual graphs from that time I will make a PDF.

Current studies show that the weekend is the most frequent time that couples have intercourse -- which indicates that the stress of daily life has a big factor on sexual activity -- i.e., the energy mentally and physically.

Furthermore, there is evidence that those who use NFP and periodic abstinence have better sex -- i.e., the honeymoon effect, keeping sex new and exciting.

Common sense dictates that condomized sex (even during the estimated fertile phase) is not very satisfying -- i.e., placing latex between two people --- and the actions to place the condom on, to make sure there is no spillage, then the proper discarding ---- that is all disrupted of the sexual act. Just read the government steps on the proper use of condoms. Then there are the studies (qualitative) of why teens and others do not like the use of condoms --- "It does not feel good" "it is not natural" --- and these statements are not from prudish Catholics. All of these studies that I refer to can be found in my CMR reviews.

J. Fehring

Professor

Marquette University

From: [ ] on behalf of rbamer2@... [rbamer2@...]Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Dear elaine, thank you for having the courage to voice this question. As a "lay" instructor does that mean you are an atheist? Even if you have no belief in God, can you not see a "design" regarding life in your work as a NFP Instructor?Why would human beings have increased arousal at the height of fertility - well for starters, to further the species. Sounds like a good plan to me. And so if we can agree that there is a design regarding human creation, then we must also acknowledge a Creator, who many of us call GOD and that this God is the designer of life. And just as cars have rules about what kind of substances to put in gas tanks, that people also have rules or natural laws applicable to how their bodies must be used to ensure maximal performance. You may think molasses is going to make that car hum, but you find out you are wrong. We may need that strong physical urge to convince us to become more open to life. We may need to learn to love our husbands more and to be open to them even when it is slightly harder to get in the mood. That openess to them may be changing us in very important ways, strengthening our marriage.Now ultimately your premise (that NFP is not fair because it deprives the woman of maximal potential self-gratifying sex) is flawed in many ways but is a dominant attitude in our secular society. Firstly, this is a contraceptive mentality that seeks to divorce the unitive and procreative ends of intercourse. But your patients' philosophy goes a step further -- you not only just want the pleasure of intercourse without the "pain" of a potential baby. You are saying to your patients that they can still be united with their spouse on nonfertile days, but even THAT is not enough -- they have to be "biologically-stimulating" days to suit your design. This is the height of "using" somebody, not LOVING somebody. Even if you do not believe in God, what about cultivating virtues, such as self-mastery over instincts, patience, and true Love (which is sacrificing for the other and being gift for the other), rather than seeking maximal utilitarian gain from the other.This utilitarian philosophy also seems angry at a Creator who would design such a system. We see this same line of reasoning in homosexual unions and same sex operations -- the Creation is flawed and we must recreate it, thus making ourselves equal to God. It is the age-old apple in the Garden.Blessings, rebecca Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T

From: elaine mills <millselaine@...>

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Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 07:05:46 -0700 (PDT)

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Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

With FAM, the woman can participate in the marital act at the time that she has biological interest (ovulation). With NFP, she is limited to those times where she may be biologically not in the mood. Some women have little interest outside of their ovulatory time and they feel doomed to a lifetime of "obligatory sex". As NFP instructors, we need to be honest about the good the bad and the ugly. As a lay NFP instructor, I have a hard time counseling women in this situation because I do feel sympathetic to their plight. Of course nothing is to stop them from participating in the marital act during ovulation.... but it does seem unfair to those women that they have two choices: potentially get pregnant & take on the physical discomfort of pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding, etc or never get to enjoy sex. On the flipside, with FAM the couple is taking on the additional risk of contraceptive failure at the height of their fertility.Elaine Mills

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of NFP LethbridgeSent: Saturday, May 05, 2012 2:16 AM Subject: RE: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

, Certainly, NFP and Fertility Awareness Methods are similar. They all teach a couple to identify the woman's times of fertility and infertility, so that the information may be used to achieve or avoid pregnancy. The way fertility is monitored varies from method to method and the rules for avoiding pregnancy vary. Effectiveness rates vary, depending on each individual method or the barrier of choice for a couple using a Fertility Awareness Method. On the very practical level of effectiveness, abstinence on fertile days eliminates the possibility of conception. Barrier contraception on fertile days will reduce the possibility of conception. Both NFP and FAM agree that waiting on days with fertile signs is the more effective way to postpone pregnancy. I think the biggest difference of all would be in the behavior (periodic abstinence versus contraception) and it's effect on the relationship. Embracing periodic abstinence as per a method of NFP is markedly different experience than contracting on fertile days as per Fertility Awareness Methods. Very different dynamics are bound to emerge within the relationships, depending on which behavior they practice. Waiting on fertile days can challenge a couple to grow in other areas of their relationship - friendship, non-sexual affection, communication, etc. Of course, growing in all those areas will naturally lead to a more satisfying sexual experience when the time comes as well. They may find that re-uniting during the infertile phase is particularly special. If they find the waiting difficult, it may challenge them to communicate about some delicate issues in their relationship. Or it may also provide them an opportunity to support each other. They grow in self mastery and patience. Waiting teaches them to delay gratification for the greater good of each other or their family. Waiting may challenge them to re-examine their reasons for avoiding pregnancy. All sorts of important conversations tend to spring up when you're waiting! They usually grow to have a deeper respect for the experience of sexual love, regarding it more as a privilege and less as an entitlement. They are less inclined to take their sexual relationship for granted or become bored with it. Both spouses take responsibility for their own fertility by making the mutual decision to wait, rather than the burden of responsibility being all on one person. Sexual expression becomes the gift of each person as they are, to the other - without resisting any part of themselves or their partner (particularly, fertility). A couple using contraceptives on fertile days won't have the same experience as a couple that embraces periodic abstinence will, and vice versa. So NFP and FAM connect on the grounds of knowledge of fertility. The behaviors practiced in response to that knowledge (and the corresponding consequences of those behaviors) is where they diverge. a Van Uden, LPNAccredited Instructor, Billings Ovulation Methodwww.facebook.com/BillingsMethod

From: akayh421@...Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 16:48:14 +0000Subject: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

I never really liked that analysis of Grisez, though I like him on almost anything else. I can tell you that when at Creighton, the moral theologian there sided with the negative opinion, and I really think that in the mind of the Church, until clarified, it would be the more probable opinion. He doesn't treat well enough, in my opinion, the shared fertility as the privileged domain of the married.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

I wondered where you'd been -- welcome back!

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

Thanks, Dominic.

From: Dominic

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:41 AM

Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I wondered where you'd been -- welcome back!

Sincerely yours, Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

Iâ€™m sympathetic with that concern (and in general Iâ€™m not a member of the Grisez-Finnis â€œschoolâ€) â€“ at the same time Iâ€™m not fully confident that learning about the womanâ€™s fertile times (and the symptoms thereof) is per se a part of the fertility-sharing that in the Churchâ€™s understanding is reserved for the married or at least for those preparing to be married â€“ i.e. I remain â€œon the fenceâ€ about this case.

I do think that â€“ as I suggested in the context of making the distinction between NFP and contraception â€“ NFP (vs. contraception) isnâ€™t primarily about oneâ€™s attitude toward procreation per se (as Grisez strongly contends), but rather about oneâ€™s attitude toward the relationship between sex and procreation â€“ or, put differently, about oneâ€™s attitude toward oneâ€™s spouse (and oneself). Contraception is first of all a serious (unacceptable) kind of selfishness toward (as Wojtyla/JPII would put it â€“ â€˜objectificationâ€™ or â€˜useâ€™ of) oneâ€™s spouse â€“ NFP is the opposite of that â€“ a kind of â€˜loveâ€™ for oneâ€™s spouse.

So, I wonder â€“ is it perhaps likely (though not simply inevitable) that if an unmarried (but not chaste) couple were to learn NFP, this might â€œsensitizeâ€ them toward the need for â€˜loveâ€™ vs. â€˜useâ€™ in their relationship more broadly â€“ and thus toward the need for full chastity (and therefore no pre-/extra-marital sex at all)?

And therefore â€“ unless teaching NFP to a couple who arenâ€™t married or planning to marry were intrinsically evil (and Iâ€™m pretty confident that I wouldnâ€™t be able to push it that far), might it then, in principle (i.e. not excluding the need for prudential judgments about particular cases), be a good thing to be willing to teach them NFP?

Of course, in the case Grisez is considering, it is a matter of a couple who want to use NFP to achieve pregnancy â€“ i.e. to know when they should be especially sure to have intercourse to maximize the likelihood of pregnancy â€“ vs. when they should abstain in order to minimize the likelihood â€“ which I think is significant (and the IVF case is similar in that regard) â€“ and which has a lot to do with my â€œfence-sittingâ€ (vs. ready agreement with Grisez) ... but I donâ€™t know how typical this couple would be in that regard, among unmarried couples more generally who want to learn NFP.

From: Dominic

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:40 AM

Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I never really liked that analysis of Grisez, though I like him on almost anything else. I can tell you that when at Creighton, the moral theologian there sided with the negative opinion, and I really think that in the mind of the Church, until clarified, it would be the more probable opinion. He doesn't treat well enough, in my opinion, the shared fertility as the privileged domain of the married.

Sincerely yours, Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

I think it is appropriate and even necessary to be teaching about NFP and fertility awareness at a younger age (say high school â€“ later years and especially college) as part of morality and theology courses; even, say, with biology courses.Â I think it important regardless of faith or relationship that people are aware of the methods and what they do for relationships.Â Once beyond the general information aspect â€“incorporating it into the dignity of the body and â€œcommunionâ€ principles of TOB- I donâ€™t think it is appropriate to be teaching the actual courses or programs or techniques to unmarried sexually active couples.Â Engaged couples definitely- even if sexually active (which most are unfortunately) and married couples, yes.Â Since NFP isÂ a â€œlifestyleâ€ for couples who should be charting together and discerning responsible parenting together- sexually active, unmarried couples cannot and are not doing this because they are not in a committed covenantal relationship.Â For the unmarried sexually active couple (not engaged) they are engaging in a violation of commandment relationship and giving them a tool for the married will not lead them to that path, necessarily, I believe.Â This is a similar problem I have with teaching NFP to single women who come to our crisis pregnancy centers and decide to keep their babies and not abort and some of the board at the center want me to conduct NFP classes for these single sexually active women so they can â€œuse NFPâ€ to not conceive again.Â I would rather they get chastity/abstinence classes and general information about NFP then the formerâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦but I may be wrong and obstinateâ€¦â€¦â€¦.but not uncharitableJ:Les Ruppersberger From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of E. Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 12:34 PM Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods Iâ€™m sympathetic with that concern (and in general Iâ€™m not a member of the Grisez-Finnis â€œschoolâ€) â€“ at the same time Iâ€™m not fully confident that learning about the womanâ€™s fertile times (and the symptoms thereof) is per se a part of the fertility-sharing that in the Churchâ€™s understanding is reserved for the married or at least for those preparing to be married â€“ i.e. I remain â€œon the fenceâ€ about this case. I do think that â€“ as I suggested in the context of making the distinction between NFP and contraception â€“ NFP (vs. contraception) isnâ€™t primarily about oneâ€™s attitude toward procreation per se (as Grisez strongly contends), but rather about oneâ€™s attitude toward the relationship between sex and procreation â€“ or, put differently, about oneâ€™s attitude toward oneâ€™s spouse (and oneself). Contraception is first of all a serious (unacceptable) kind of selfishness toward (as Wojtyla/JPII would put it â€“ â€˜objectificationâ€™ or â€˜useâ€™ of) oneâ€™s spouse â€“ NFP is the opposite of that â€“ a kind of â€˜loveâ€™ for oneâ€™s spouse. So, I wonder â€“ is it perhaps likely (though not simply inevitable) that if an unmarried (but not chaste) couple were to learn NFP, this might â€œsensitizeâ€ them toward the need for â€˜loveâ€™ vs. â€˜useâ€™ in their relationship more broadly â€“ and thus toward the need for full chastity (and therefore no pre-/extra-marital sex at all)? And therefore â€“ unless teaching NFP to a couple who arenâ€™t married or planning to marry were intrinsically evil (and Iâ€™m pretty confident that I wouldnâ€™t be able to push it that far), might it then, in principle (i.e. not excluding the need for prudential judgments about particular cases), be a good thing to be willing to teach them NFP? Of course, in the case Grisez is considering, it is a matter of a couple who want to use NFP to achieve pregnancy â€“ i.e. to know when they should be especially sure to have intercourse to maximize the likelihood of pregnancy â€“ vs. when they should abstain in order to minimize the likelihood â€“ which I think is significant (and the IVF case is similar in that regard) â€“ and which has a lot to do with my â€œfence-sittingâ€ (vs. ready agreement with Grisez) ... but I donâ€™t know how typical this couple would be in that regard, among unmarried couples more generally who want to learn NFP. From: Dominic Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:40 AM Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods I never really liked that analysis of Grisez, though I like him on almost anything else. I can tell you that when at Creighton, the moral theologian there sided with the negative opinion, and I really think that in the mind of the Church, until clarified, it would be the more probable opinion. He doesn't treat well enough, in my opinion, the shared fertility as the privileged domain of the married. Sincerely yours, Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@... " ...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself. " (Inter Insignores) Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

I agree about teaching about NFP â€“ both biological and moral/spiritual aspects â€“ at a younger age. II, in Familiaris Consortio (#66), divides â€œpreparation for marriageâ€ into three phases â€“ the first begins in childhood (with general moral/spiritual formation by parentsâ€™ example and words); the second, to summarize what I think is JPIIâ€™s point, when a person is nearing marriageable age; the third, â€œin the months and weeks immediately preceding the wedding.â€ He says that it is in the second of those three stages that people should â€œstudy the nature of conjugal sexuality and responsible parenthood, with the essential medical and biological knowledge connected with itâ€ â€“ i.e. this is not something that should wait until one is actually engaged and immediately preparing for marriage (the third phase). In two of my classes â€“ the undergrad intro moral theology course, and the upper-level sexual & medical morality course, I try to spend at least a day on a general intro to NFP, in its theological aspects especially, but also a quick overview of methods (regarding which Fehring has taught me basically everything I know).

I also agree that it isnâ€™t necessary to present details of methods â€“ to â€œteach NFPâ€ as I think most people would understand this â€“ to people in this second phase â€“ i.e. to make a general point of â€œteaching NFPâ€ to, say, all college students (I certainly donâ€™t go into details regarding mucus observations and BBT shift determination and the like â€“ both because Iâ€™m not qualified to do so and because I donâ€™t think itâ€™s necessary â€“ although I do give them a simple handout which basically gives them the rules for the Marquette Model II â€“ combining calendar with fertility monitor). However â€“ Iâ€™m also not sure that I agree that thereâ€™s anything wrong with teaching NFP to an unengaged/unmarried couple who actually requests it. Is one thereby teaching them to be unchaste â€“ i.e. more so than they already are (or to be confirmed in this level of unchastity) â€“ or is one doing something that might help them to begin, gradually, to move in the direction of chastity?

I agree that the latter wonâ€™t necessarily happen â€“ but I wouldnâ€™t be surprised if it were to happen frequently â€“ I suspect that many unmarried couples coming for NFP instruction (and Iâ€™m guessing weâ€™re talking about a pretty tiny minority of such couples â€“ even tinier than the minority of engaged/married couples who come for NFP instruction) are doing so because they are already looking for a better way of living (and not only on the level of physical or even psychological health â€“ but on a deeper moral/spiritual level â€“ even if they couldnâ€™t articulate it in that way). I think that in any case fornication-with-NFP is less unchaste than is fornication-with-contraception â€“ even if it still doesnâ€™t reach the level thatâ€™s minimally required by chastity. So I think that at worst an NFP teacher would be doing a little bit of good for such a couple (moving them from more unchaste to less unchaste) â€“ at best, the teacher will helping them move in the direction of being chaste.

Where I think the situation becomes more complicated is in the case of an unmarried couple who wants to learn NFP to help achieve pregnancy (thus my fence-sitting regarding Grisezâ€™s answer) â€“ or a married couple who wants to learn NFP to facilitate IVF.

KM

From: Les Ruppersberger

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 2:16 PM

Subject: RE: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I think it is appropriate and even necessary to be teaching about NFP and fertility awareness at a younger age (say high school â€“ later years and especially college) as part of morality and theology courses; even, say, with biology courses. I think it important regardless of faith or relationship that people are aware of the methods and what they do for relationships. Once beyond the general information aspect â€“incorporating it into the dignity of the body and â€œcommunionâ€ principles of TOB- I donâ€™t think it is appropriate to be teaching the actual courses or programs or techniques to unmarried sexually active couples. Engaged couples definitely- even if sexually active (which most are unfortunately) and married couples, yes. Since NFP is a â€œlifestyleâ€ for couples who should be charting together and discerning responsible parenting together- sexually active, unmarried couples cannot and are not doing this because they are not in a committed covenantal relationship. For the unmarried sexually active couple (not engaged) they are engaging in a violation of commandment relationship and giving them a tool for the married will not lead them to that path, necessarily, I believe. This is a similar problem I have with teaching NFP to single women who come to our crisis pregnancy centers and decide to keep their babies and not abort and some of the board at the center want me to conduct NFP classes for these single sexually active women so they can â€œuse NFPâ€ to not conceive again. I would rather they get chastity/abstinence classes and general information about NFP then the formerâ€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦but I may be wrong and obstinateâ€¦â€¦â€¦.but not uncharitableJ

:Les Ruppersberger

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of E. Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 12:34 PM Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Iâ€™m sympathetic with that concern (and in general Iâ€™m not a member of the Grisez-Finnis â€œschoolâ€) â€“ at the same time Iâ€™m not fully confident that learning about the womanâ€™s fertile times (and the symptoms thereof) is per se a part of the fertility-sharing that in the Churchâ€™s understanding is reserved for the married or at least for those preparing to be married â€“ i.e. I remain â€œon the fenceâ€ about this case.

I do think that â€“ as I suggested in the context of making the distinction between NFP and contraception â€“ NFP (vs. contraception) isnâ€™t primarily about oneâ€™s attitude toward procreation per se (as Grisez strongly contends), but rather about oneâ€™s attitude toward the relationship between sex and procreation â€“ or, put differently, about oneâ€™s attitude toward oneâ€™s spouse (and oneself). Contraception is first of all a serious (unacceptable) kind of selfishness toward (as Wojtyla/JPII would put it â€“ â€˜objectificationâ€™ or â€˜useâ€™ of) oneâ€™s spouse â€“ NFP is the opposite of that â€“ a kind of â€˜loveâ€™ for oneâ€™s spouse.

So, I wonder â€“ is it perhaps likely (though not simply inevitable) that if an unmarried (but not chaste) couple were to learn NFP, this might â€œsensitizeâ€ them toward the need for â€˜loveâ€™ vs. â€˜useâ€™ in their relationship more broadly â€“ and thus toward the need for full chastity (and therefore no pre-/extra-marital sex at all)?

And therefore â€“ unless teaching NFP to a couple who arenâ€™t married or planning to marry were intrinsically evil (and Iâ€™m pretty confident that I wouldnâ€™t be able to push it that far), might it then, in principle (i.e. not excluding the need for prudential judgments about particular cases), be a good thing to be willing to teach them NFP?

Of course, in the case Grisez is considering, it is a matter of a couple who want to use NFP to achieve pregnancy â€“ i.e. to know when they should be especially sure to have intercourse to maximize the likelihood of pregnancy â€“ vs. when they should abstain in order to minimize the likelihood â€“ which I think is significant (and the IVF case is similar in that regard) â€“ and which has a lot to do with my â€œfence-sittingâ€ (vs. ready agreement with Grisez) ... but I donâ€™t know how typical this couple would be in that regard, among unmarried couples more generally who want to learn NFP.

From: Dominic

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:40 AM

Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I never really liked that analysis of Grisez, though I like him on almost anything else. I can tell you that when at Creighton, the moral theologian there sided with the negative opinion, and I really think that in the mind of the Church, until clarified, it would be the more probable opinion. He doesn't treat well enough, in my opinion, the shared fertility as the privileged domain of the married.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

Thanks for that input, ,Â very helpful. s. Hanna From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of E. Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 11:10 AM Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods Thanks, Dominic. From: Dominic Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods I wondered where you'd been -- welcome back!Sincerely yours, Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@... " ...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself. " (Inter Insignores) Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

Itâ€™s been an interesting discussion,Â but to cut through a lot ofÂ â€œprobablesâ€Â in the billings method we believe that any woman has a right to know how her body functions.Â Â We should not â€œtellâ€ clients when to have intercourse ,Â but merely identify the fertility potential of the act on any given day.Â They exercise freedom of choice.Â Â By the same token, Les,Â one need not wait until girls are near to engagement to teach them how to recognize their fertility.Â It has been present since their puberty,Â is Godâ€™s gift to them.Â As Phyllis White said years ago,Â when God gives you a sign you have a right to know what it means.Â Â Â Hanna Klaus From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of DominicSent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods I wondered where you'd been -- welcome back!Sincerely yours, Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@... " ...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself. " (Inter Insignores) Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

Circumstances always define the morality or neutrality of a human act. Yawning, for example, could ordinarily be assumed as neither a moral or immoral act. Teaching someone how to load a gun, in itself, may or may not have any moral implications, but If someone asked me to show him how to load a gun so he could kill himself, if I cooperated, then I would be materially and thereby morally implicated.

Fr. Tom BartolomeoOn Wed, May 9, 2012 at 12:34 PM, E. <k.e.miller@...> wrote:

I’m sympathetic with that concern (and in general I’m not a member of the Grisez-Finnis “school”) – at the same time I’m not fully confident that learning about the woman’s fertile times (and the symptoms thereof) is per se a part of the fertility-sharing that in the Church’s understanding is reserved for the married or at least for those preparing to be married – i.e. I remain “on the fence” about this case.

I do think that – as I suggested in the context of making the distinction between NFP and contraception – NFP (vs. contraception) isn’t primarily about one’s attitude toward procreation per se (as Grisez strongly contends), but rather about one’s attitude toward the relationship between sex and procreation – or, put differently, about one’s attitude toward one’s spouse (and oneself). Contraception is first of all a serious (unacceptable) kind of selfishness toward (as Wojtyla/JPII would put it – ‘objectification’ or ‘use’ of) one’s spouse – NFP is the opposite of that – a kind of ‘love’ for one’s spouse.

So, I wonder – is it perhaps likely (though not simply inevitable) that if an unmarried (but not chaste) couple were to learn NFP, this might “sensitize” them toward the need for ‘love’ vs. ‘use’ in their relationship more broadly – and thus toward the need for full chastity (and therefore no pre-/extra-marital sex at all)?

And therefore – unless teaching NFP to a couple who aren’t married or planning to marry were intrinsically evil (and I’m pretty confident that I wouldn’t be able to push it that far), might it then, in principle (i.e. not excluding the need for prudential judgments about particular cases), be a good thing to be willing to teach them NFP?

Of course, in the case Grisez is considering, it is a matter of a couple who want to use NFP to achieve pregnancy – i.e. to know when they should be especially sure to have intercourse to maximize the likelihood of pregnancy – vs. when they should abstain in order to minimize the likelihood – which I think is significant (and the IVF case is similar in that regard) – and which has a lot to do with my “fence-sitting” (vs. ready agreement with Grisez) ... but I don’t know how typical this couple would be in that regard, among unmarried couples more generally who want to learn NFP.

From: Dominic

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:40 AM

Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I never really liked that analysis of Grisez, though I like him on almost anything else. I can tell you that when at Creighton, the moral theologian there sided with the negative opinion, and I really think that in the mind of the Church, until clarified, it would be the more probable opinion. He doesn't treat well enough, in my opinion, the shared fertility as the privileged domain of the married.

Sincerely yours, Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@...

" ...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself. " (Inter Insignores)

Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 9, 2012

I generally agree – I think Aquinas’ example is that one is generally obliged (i.e. it is generally a good thing – not merely neutral) to return what one has borrowed, but if one has borrowed a weapon and its owner wants it back for the purpose of doing something evil with it, then one ought not return it (doing so would be evil).

I would quibble with “materially and thereby morally” – i.e. formal cooperation in evil is always morally evil – material cooperation may or may not be depending on the gravity of the evil in which one is cooperating, the proximity vs. remoteness of the cooperation, the reasons one has for engaging in the behavior that constitutes material cooperation, etc.

But in any case – yes – I have reservations about teaching NFP to an unmarried couple when it is evident that they want to use it to achieve pregnancy – or to a married couple when it’s evident that they want to use it as part of IVF.

Whereas if an unmarried but sexually active couple wants to use it to avoid pregnancy (the far more likely case, I suspect – though still unusual in that most such couples won’t be interested in NFP at all) – I’m not sure whether that’s meaningfully described as cooperating in evil – it certainly presupposes the evil of fornication (if they were really chaste they wouldn’t need to practice NFP at all), but I don’t know that it facilitates the evil (I doubt that an unmarried couple is going to quit fornicating if they’re not taught NFP – more likely they will continue to fornicate but compound the evil by using contraception).

From: gotomb

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

Circumstances always define the morality or neutrality of a human act. Yawning, for example, could ordinarily be assumed as neither a moral or immoral act. Teaching someone how to load a gun, in itself, may or may not have any moral implications, but If someone asked me to show him how to load a gun so he could kill himself, if I cooperated, then I would be materially and thereby morally implicated. Fr. Tom Bartolomeo

On Wed, May 9, 2012 at 12:34 PM, E. <k.e.miller@...> wrote:

I’m sympathetic with that concern (and in general I’m not a member of the Grisez-Finnis “school”) – at the same time I’m not fully confident that learning about the woman’s fertile times (and the symptoms thereof) is per se a part of the fertility-sharing that in the Church’s understanding is reserved for the married or at least for those preparing to be married – i.e. I remain “on the fence” about this case.

I do think that – as I suggested in the context of making the distinction between NFP and contraception – NFP (vs. contraception) isn’t primarily about one’s attitude toward procreation per se (as Grisez strongly contends), but rather about one’s attitude toward the relationship between sex and procreation – or, put differently, about one’s attitude toward one’s spouse (and oneself). Contraception is first of all a serious (unacceptable) kind of selfishness toward (as Wojtyla/JPII would put it – ‘objectification’ or ‘use’ of) one’s spouse – NFP is the opposite of that – a kind of ‘love’ for one’s spouse.

So, I wonder – is it perhaps likely (though not simply inevitable) that if an unmarried (but not chaste) couple were to learn NFP, this might “sensitize” them toward the need for ‘love’ vs. ‘use’ in their relationship more broadly – and thus toward the need for full chastity (and therefore no pre-/extra-marital sex at all)?

And therefore – unless teaching NFP to a couple who aren’t married or planning to marry were intrinsically evil (and I’m pretty confident that I wouldn’t be able to push it that far), might it then, in principle (i.e. not excluding the need for prudential judgments about particular cases), be a good thing to be willing to teach them NFP?

Of course, in the case Grisez is considering, it is a matter of a couple who want to use NFP to achieve pregnancy – i.e. to know when they should be especially sure to have intercourse to maximize the likelihood of pregnancy – vs. when they should abstain in order to minimize the likelihood – which I think is significant (and the IVF case is similar in that regard) – and which has a lot to do with my “fence-sitting” (vs. ready agreement with Grisez) ... but I don’t know how typical this couple would be in that regard, among unmarried couples more generally who want to learn NFP.

From: Dominic

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 10:40 AM

Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I never really liked that analysis of Grisez, though I like him on almost anything else. I can tell you that when at Creighton, the moral theologian there sided with the negative opinion, and I really think that in the mind of the Church, until clarified, it would be the more probable opinion. He doesn't treat well enough, in my opinion, the shared fertility as the privileged domain of the married.

Sincerely yours, Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

May 10, 2012

ï»¿

It seems to me that we are now, as of March 9, in a new ball park. The president of the most powerful country in the world has publicly stated that he thinks that couples who want to practice sodomy on a regular basis with one partner ought to be given the same status and the same legal and financial treatment as heterosexual couples who engage in the covenant of marriage.

It may be helpful to remind all of our students or clients that the purpose of every human relationship is to help each other on the path to heaven. Satan would like us to help each other on the path to hell. People who love each other have a special obligation to help and not to harm. The same holds true of people in authority including doctors and teachers. Applying these principles might help to alleviate the situations that started the thread about teaching lesbians and fornicators.

Another way of teaching the divine purposes of sexual union is to refer to sexual union exclusively as "the marriage act." Animals "have sex" but only conscious persons can enter the marriage act with the intention, at least implicitly, of renewing their marriage covenant.

Kippley

From: E.

Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2012 2:47 PM

Subject: Re: Comparing NFP with Other Fertility Awareness Methods

I agree about teaching about NFP â€“ both biological and moral/spiritual aspects â€“ at a younger age. II, in Familiaris Consortio (#66), divides â€œpreparation for marriageâ€ into three phases â€“ the first begins in childhood (with general moral/spiritual formation by parentsâ€™ example and words); the second, to summarize what I think is JPIIâ€™s point, when a person is nearing marriageable age; the third, â€œin the months and weeks immediately preceding the wedding.â€ He says that it is in the second of those three stages that people should â€œstudy the nature of conjugal sexuality and responsible parenthood, with the essential medical and biological knowledge connected with itâ€ â€“ i.e. this is not something that should wait until one is actually engaged and immediately preparing for marriage (the third phase). In two of my classes â€“ the undergrad intro moral theology course, and the upper-level sexual & medical morality course, I try to spend at least a day on a general intro to NFP, in its theological aspects especially, but also a quick overview of methods (regarding which Fehring has taught me basically everything I know).

I also agree that it isnâ€™t necessary to present details of methods â€“ to â€œteach NFPâ€ as I think most people would understand this â€“ to people in this second phase â€“ i.e. to make a general point of â€œteaching NFPâ€ to, say, all college students (I certainly donâ€™t go into details regarding mucus observations and BBT shift determination and the like â€“ both because Iâ€™m not qualified to do so and because I donâ€™t think itâ€™s necessary â€“ although I do give them a simple handout which basically gives them the rules for the Marquette Model II â€“ combining calendar with fertility monitor). However â€“ Iâ€™m also not sure that I agree that thereâ€™s anything wrong with teaching NFP to an unengaged/unmarried couple who actually requests it. Is one thereby teaching them to be unchaste â€“ i.e. more so than they already are (or to be confirmed in this level of unchastity) â€“ or is one doing something that might help them to begin, gradually, to move in the direction of chastity?

I agree that the latter wonâ€™t necessarily happen â€“ but I wouldnâ€™t be surprised if it were to happen frequently â€“ I suspect that many unmarried couples coming for NFP instruction (and Iâ€™m guessing weâ€™re talking about a pretty tiny minority of such couples â€“ even tinier than the minority of engaged/married couples who come for NFP instruction) are doing so because they are already looking for a better way of living (and not only on the level of physical or even psychological health â€“ but on a deeper moral/spiritual level â€“ even if they couldnâ€™t articulate it in that way). I think that in any case fornication-with-NFP is less unchaste than is fornication-with-contraception â€“ even if it still doesnâ€™t reach the level thatâ€™s minimally required by chastity. So I think that at worst an NFP teacher would be doing a little bit of good for such a couple (moving them from more unchaste to less unchaste) â€“ at best, the teacher will helping them move in the direction of being chaste.

Where I think the situation becomes more complicated is in the case of an unmarried couple who wants to learn NFP to help achieve pregnancy (thus my fence-sitting regarding Grisezâ€™s answer) â€“ or a married couple who wants to learn NFP to facilitate IVF.

KM

May 11, 2012

,Thanks for your question. The responses have been very enlightening and thought provoking. I just want to quickly point out that fertility awareness itself is not secular per se. NFP methods are themselves all fertility awareness-based methods. You seek to understand the difference between NFP methods and the Fertility Awareness Method (FAM). Those using NFP or FAM are practicing fertility awareness and informing their practice with their guiding life philosophies, whether secular or not. It is an often misunderstood distinction (FA vs NFP vs FAM) in my humble opinion. And it is worth pointing out that without the research and developments in fertility awareness-based NFP, FAM would not be. Warmly,___Sent from my iPod.On May 3, 2012, at 10:48, "akayh421" <akayh421@...> wrote:

I'm working on a project that compares NFP (all the different forms) with its secular counterpart--fertility awareness. What do you think are the biggest differences? What do you see as the pros/cons of each? Where do they connect? Where do they diverge? Any ideas, opinions or comments are welcome!

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