Re: same sex marriage

[Guest guest]

A few not-so-quick thoughts (unfortunately there aren’t many thoughts on this topic that are simultaneously both quick and worthwhile), in between having lunch with a friend who’s trying to fix my wife’s computer for her while she’s away on business (nearly an all-day project, as it seems to be turning out), and getting back to working on a long-overdue book review ...

- Yes, we can know the truth about human sexuality generally, and about homosexuality in particular, from revelation and reason together – and yes, reason includes social-scientific reasoning. Let me just add that reason also, and even more basically, includes philosophical (“natural lawâ€) reasoning.

- For a look at Scripture on homosexuality – responding to claims that Scripture doesn’t “really†(and/or authoritatively) teach that homosexual actions are immoral – you could check out the chapter on “Scripture and Homosexuality†that I contributed to a book called Same-Sex Attraction, edited by Harvey and Gerry Bradley. For a much more extensive and intensive look, you could read Gagnon’s The Bible and Homosexual Practice (Gagnon is a Presbyterian). Both of those are around 10 years old. There is also a newer book (originally written in French five years ago and now available in English translation), The Bible on the Question of Homosexuality, by Innocent Himbaza (a Protestant), Adrien Schenker, and Jean-Baptiste Edart (Catholics).

- It’s necessary to be a bit careful about saying that 1 Corinthians 6 refers to “sodomy.†The Greek words that uses (i.e. malakoi and arsenokoitai) do, I think (this is one of the contested points among scholars, but I don’t think that the objections are in the end reasonable ones), refer to those who take part in homosexual actions (in the roles of recipient and performer of homosexual intercourse, respectively). But they are not words that are derived from the name “Sodom" as is our word “sodomy.†Thus if an English translation of the Bible uses the word “sodomy†here (I see that the RNAB and the NKJV do, but not the RSVCE), I would say that this translation is a tad misleading – again, not because “sodomy†doesn’t accurately convey the actions to which ’s words refer, but because “sodomy†connects those actions with “Sodom,†and ’s words don’t.

- There is on the other hand a reference in Jude 7 to “Sodom and Gomorrah†and the fact that their men “went after other/different flesh†(apelthousai opiso sarkos heteras) – the main NT text that connects Sodom by name with a certain sin. What interpretation of the sin of the men of Sodom (and Gomorrah) is being offered here – i.e. – to what does “other/different flesh†(sarkos heteras) refer? Most scholars would say – and I think with reason – that at least part of what’s going on here is that Jude is referring to the fact that the men with whom the men of Sodom wanted to engage in sexual activity were actually messengers from God – i.e., actually, angels, rather than men (human beings). But I think that Gagnon and some others are correct to say that though this is part of what’s going on, it isn’t the only thing that’s going on – i.e. – Jude is not trying to suggest that the sin of the men of Sodom has nothing to do with the fact that they were pursuing sexual activity with (in their own minds) men (males) rather than women – with people “other†than those with whom men (males) ought to be pursuing sexual activity (assuming other conditions for chastity are also met – marriage and so on). (It is perhaps ironic and/or otherwise interesting that while we speak of “heterosexuality†to refer to sexual relations with those of the “other†sex and “homosexuality†to refer to relations with those of the “same†sex – reflecting the meaning of the Greek prefixes – in Jude we have a use of the expression “went after other (heteras) flesh†to refer to the pursuit of relations with those whose sex is the same as one’s own, reflecting, again, both the fact that these are “other†than those whom one should be pursuing relations, and to the fact that in the specific case of Sodom the “men†pursued were actually “other†than human beings.)

- There are several Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith documents that Catholics might want to read on homosexuality and some related issues – in chronological order (starting in 1975 and ending, for now, in 2003), the Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics, the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons (early in this document there’s a list of key scriptural texts that the Church maintains do speak to the question of the morality of homosexual actions – my book chapter on Scripture and homosexuality takes this list as its starting point and focuses on these texts), Some Considerations Concerning the Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons, and Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons.

- Finally, let me note that it is possible somewhat to separate the question of the morality of homosexual actions from the question of whether same-sex unions ought to be given legal recognition as “marriages†or as something similar thereto – and that, while we certainly need to deal with the question of the morality of homosexual actions in the context of public debate, we might sometimes be wise to focus more narrowly on the question of whether same-sex unions are basically the same sort of thing (apart from their morality or immorality) as heterosexual unions and deserve to be treated by the law in (basically or entirely) the same way. I think that it is in fact possible to argue that having “same-sex marriage†doesn’t make sense, even without arguing that homosexual actions are immoral – and that it is sometimes wise to do so. (I believe that the article that I forwarded a link to a few days ago – by an MIT doctoral student – takes more or less this approach.)

Hope that helps – must get back to work for now.

From: Bame

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 11:47 AM

Subject: same sex marriage

For those of you who need more infomation on the same/sex marriage topic, I would refer you to the links below.

I think that it is not an "accident" that our President's stance on same sex marriage "evolved" so quickly on the heels of the HHS/Contraceptive Mandate. Indeed, one can see the parallels between the failure of our heterosexual society to embrace Our Church's teaching on chastity and to disregard the sacrament of marriage (and the sanctity and indissoluiblity thereof). We can observe the failure of chastity both before and during marriage, the large numbers of Catholics (and non-Catholics alike) who use contraception and sterilization (instead of NFP), skrocketing single parenting rates, increased divorce rates, etc These are all sins against chastity and obedience.

How can we know the Truth on this topic? Through Divine Revelation (Sacred Scripture, Magisterium) and the social science data (reason). Regarding Divine Revelation, we can reference the Catechism regarding our Church's position on homosexuality that this is a "disordered" condition, but that we must treat each person with dignity and compassion. We can reference Old Testament Scripture Creation accounts which state the truth about how men and women were created..."male and female they were created". We can note the complementarity of the bodies and male and female "cleave to each other". We have the Sodom and Gomorrah account, which I know has had differing interpretations. We have Corinthians 6:10 reference to "sodomy" (a known sin at the time) and one of many that St. cites. I know that as a physician, I have had many patients tell me that the sin of homosexuality is never mentioned per se in the bible, and this is simply untrue. Maybe Fr or Fr Tom or could expound on this further to help us. Also, do you know which encyclicals, teachings or statements from the Congegration of the Faith (besides TOB) specifically deal with homosexuality per se?

We also observe the tendency of this Administration and their philosophy to disregard absolute truth and to rely instead on "polls" to determine truth. If most people approve of same sex marriage, well then it should be approved. If most Catholics are using contraception, well, then it should be provided free of charge to them, irrespective of their faith's rules on this topic. And, as many of you may know, indeed this is how the definition of Homosexuality as a "disordered, pathological disorder" was removed from the DSM (which is considered the "bible"of the psychiatric societies like the APA). The psychiatrists, for the first time ever, VOTED whether their members thought that homosexuality was a disease/disorder or whether they thought it was part of the normal spectrum of human behaviour. For the first time ever, a group of physicians (psychiatrists) voted on a matter instead of relying on scientific data to prove their case. Indeed, even one of the head Psychiatrists involved in this effort, Dr. Spitzer, who initially considered homosexuality "normal" has since recanted his position, after exhaustively reviewing the scientific and case study literature on homosexuality.

Narth is a nonprofit organization of psychologists, psychiatrists, and social scientists, formed in the 1990s and they commit themselves to doing research which confirms that homosexuality IS a psychological disorder and as such can respond to treatment. They have several position papers based on their social science research on homosexuality and common myths (www.narth.com)

Dr. Janet has a wonderful C.D. on the Catholic Church and same sex attaction as part of her series on "Sexual Common Sense" (http://www.janetesmith.com/sexual-common-sense-12-talk-series/).

The Family Research Council has excellent resources on this topic. "Getting it Straight" is a wonderful question/answer book available on that website. It also gets the current numbers of homosexuals and lesbian right, and unlike the 10% homosexual statistic currently being brandished about, the real numbers of lesbians and homosexuals is more in the 1-2% range.

Kohen was himself an active homosexual who felt uncomfortable with his condition, and was able to get treatment for this, and is now a happily married man and became a psychoanalyst and helps others (thousands already helped) emerge from the homosexual/same sex attraction. He attributes same sex attraction to a disordered/defensive mechanism which occurs after a childhood trauma or event. It must be acknowledged, although there are many theories for different possible triggers which may help activate a same sex attraction, no gay gene has ever been defined, and no definitive social trigger has been defined either, although there are a set of conditions which can create the same sex attraction (parental conflicts, early sexual exposure, lack of masculinity/feminity, athletics ability, etc).

The homosexual "marriage" is largely a myth. There are now many studies (Kinsey Institute and others) which show that for almost half of all gay men, the average number oflifetime sexual partners climbs into the mid-hundreds of partners, and in a quarter of homosexuals, the number is in the THOUSANDS. One study followed gay men over 5 years, and almost all partners had at least one other sexual encounter by the 5th year of the so-called monogamous relationship. Even though 2 people may be "emotionally" committed to each other, they still have extra relationships.

The numbers of substance abuse, domestic violence and mental illness are all greater in homosexuals as compared with their heterosexual counterparts. Moreover, one study noted that almost half of all gay men presenting to a STD clinic recounted a story of being forced to have sex with an older, more powerful homosexual man by the age they were 12. The safety of children and young teens placed in adoptive homes with homosexual couples should definitely be raised.

The amounts of STDs in gay men versus "straight men" are much higher. Almost 50% of gay men followed for 10 years acquired HIV in one study. Another study noted that the incidence of anal cancer was up to 4,000% higher in gay men than in "straight" males.

I would value anyone's further input or if I have misstated something, please feel free to correct the information. Blessings,

Dr. Peck, MD, CCD, ABFM, Marquette NFP Instructor

Pecks Family Practice, PLC

1688 W Granada Blvd, Ste 2A

Ormond Beach, FL 32174

(386) 677-2018 fax: (386) 676-0737 cell: (386) 212-9777

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much for your informative and thoughtful clarification and references. I very much appreciate it as I'm sure the others do as well. Blessings to you and your work, rebeccaSent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: " E. " <k.e.miller@...>Sender: Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:39:11 -0400< >Reply Subject: Re: same sex marriage A few not-so-quick thoughts (unfortunately there aren’t many thoughts on this topic that are simultaneously both quick and worthwhile), in between having lunch with a friend who’s trying to fix my wife’s computer for her while she’s away on business (nearly an all-day project, as it seems to be turning out), and getting back to working on a long-overdue book review ... - Yes, we can know the truth about human sexuality generally, and about homosexuality in particular, from revelation and reason together – and yes, reason includes social-scientific reasoning. Let me just add that reason also, and even more basically, includes philosophical (“natural lawâ€) reasoning. - For a look at Scripture on homosexuality – responding to claims that Scripture doesn’t “really†(and/or authoritatively) teach that homosexual actions are immoral – you could check out the chapter on “Scripture and Homosexuality†that I contributed to a book called Same-Sex Attraction, edited by Harvey and Gerry Bradley. For a much more extensive and intensive look, you could read Gagnon’s The Bible and Homosexual Practice (Gagnon is a Presbyterian). Both of those are around 10 years old. There is also a newer book (originally written in French five years ago and now available in English translation), The Bible on the Question of Homosexuality, by Innocent Himbaza (a Protestant), Adrien Schenker, and Jean-Baptiste Edart (Catholics). - It’s necessary to be a bit careful about saying that 1 Corinthians 6 refers to “sodomy.†The Greek words that uses (i.e. malakoi and arsenokoitai) do, I think (this is one of the contested points among scholars, but I don’t think that the objections are in the end reasonable ones), refer to those who take part in homosexual actions (in the roles of recipient and performer of homosexual intercourse, respectively). But they are not words that are derived from the name “Sodom" as is our word “sodomy.†Thus if an English translation of the Bible uses the word “sodomy†here (I see that the RNAB and the NKJV do, but not the RSVCE), I would say that this translation is a tad misleading – again, not because “sodomy†doesn’t accurately convey the actions to which ’s words refer, but because “sodomy†connects those actions with “Sodom,†and ’s words don’t. - There is on the other hand a reference in Jude 7 to “Sodom and Gomorrah†and the fact that their men “went after other/different flesh†(apelthousai opiso sarkos heteras) – the main NT text that connects Sodom by name with a certain sin. What interpretation of the sin of the men of Sodom (and Gomorrah) is being offered here – i.e. – to what does “other/different flesh†(sarkos heteras) refer? Most scholars would say – and I think with reason – that at least part of what’s going on here is that Jude is referring to the fact that the men with whom the men of Sodom wanted to engage in sexual activity were actually messengers from God – i.e., actually, angels, rather than men (human beings). But I think that Gagnon and some others are correct to say that though this is part of what’s going on, it isn’t the only thing that’s going on – i.e. – Jude is not trying to suggest that the sin of the men of Sodom has nothing to do with the fact that they were pursuing sexual activity with (in their own minds) men (males) rather than women – with people “other†than those with whom men (males) ought to be pursuing sexual activity (assuming other conditions for chastity are also met – marriage and so on). (It is perhaps ironic and/or otherwise interesting that while we speak of “heterosexuality†to refer to sexual relations with those of the “other†sex and “homosexuality†to refer to relations with those of the “same†sex – reflecting the meaning of the Greek prefixes – in Jude we have a use of the expression “went after other (heteras) flesh†to refer to the pursuit of relations with those whose sex is the same as one’s own, reflecting, again, both the fact that these are “other†than those whom one should be pursuing relations, and to the fact that in the specific case of Sodom the “men†pursued were actually “other†than human beings.) - There are several Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith documents that Catholics might want to read on homosexuality and some related issues – in chronological order (starting in 1975 and ending, for now, in 2003), the Declaration on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual Ethics, the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons (early in this document there’s a list of key scriptural texts that the Church maintains do speak to the question of the morality of homosexual actions – my book chapter on Scripture and homosexuality takes this list as its starting point and focuses on these texts), Some Considerations Concerning the Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons, and Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons. - Finally, let me note that it is possible somewhat to separate the question of the morality of homosexual actions from the question of whether same-sex unions ought to be given legal recognition as “marriages†or as something similar thereto – and that, while we certainly need to deal with the question of the morality of homosexual actions in the context of public debate, we might sometimes be wise to focus more narrowly on the question of whether same-sex unions are basically the same sort of thing (apart from their morality or immorality) as heterosexual unions and deserve to be treated by the law in (basically or entirely) the same way. I think that it is in fact possible to argue that having “same-sex marriage†doesn’t make sense, even without arguing that homosexual actions are immoral – and that it is sometimes wise to do so. (I believe that the article that I forwarded a link to a few days ago – by an MIT doctoral student – takes more or less this approach.) Hope that helps – must get back to work for now. From: Bame Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 11:47 AM Subject: same sex marriage For those of you who need more infomation on the same/sex marriage topic, I would refer you to the links below. I think that it is not an "accident" that our President's stance on same sex marriage "evolved" so quickly on the heels of the HHS/Contraceptive Mandate. Indeed, one can see the parallels between the failure of our heterosexual society to embrace Our Church's teaching on chastity and to disregard the sacrament of marriage (and the sanctity and indissoluiblity thereof). We can observe the failure of chastity both before and during marriage, the large numbers of Catholics (and non-Catholics alike) who use contraception and sterilization (instead of NFP), skrocketing single parenting rates, increased divorce rates, etc These are all sins against chastity and obedience. How can we know the Truth on this topic? Through Divine Revelation (Sacred Scripture, Magisterium) and the social science data (reason). Regarding Divine Revelation, we can reference the Catechism regarding our Church's position on homosexuality that this is a "disordered" condition, but that we must treat each person with dignity and compassion. We can reference Old Testament Scripture Creation accounts which state the truth about how men and women were created..."male and female they were created". We can note the complementarity of the bodies and male and female "cleave to each other". We have the Sodom and Gomorrah account, which I know has had differing interpretations. We have Corinthians 6:10 reference to "sodomy" (a known sin at the time) and one of many that St. cites. I know that as a physician, I have had many patients tell me that the sin of homosexuality is never mentioned per se in the bible, and this is simply untrue. Maybe Fr or Fr Tom or could expound on this further to help us. Also, do you know which encyclicals, teachings or statements from the Congegration of the Faith (besides TOB) specifically deal with homosexuality per se? We also observe the tendency of this Administration and their philosophy to disregard absolute truth and to rely instead on "polls" to determine truth. If most people approve of same sex marriage, well then it should be approved. If most Catholics are using contraception, well, then it should be provided free of charge to them, irrespective of their faith's rules on this topic. And, as many of you may know, indeed this is how the definition of Homosexuality as a "disordered, pathological disorder" was removed from the DSM (which is considered the "bible"of the psychiatric societies like the APA). The psychiatrists, for the first time ever, VOTED whether their members thought that homosexuality was a disease/disorder or whether they thought it was part of the normal spectrum of human behaviour. For the first time ever, a group of physicians (psychiatrists) voted on a matter instead of relying on scientific data to prove their case. Indeed, even one of the head Psychiatrists involved in this effort, Dr. Spitzer, who initially considered homosexuality "normal" has since recanted his position, after exhaustively reviewing the scientific and case study literature on homosexuality. Narth is a nonprofit organization of psychologists, psychiatrists, and social scientists, formed in the 1990s and they commit themselves to doing research which confirms that homosexuality IS a psychological disorder and as such can respond to treatment. They have several position papers based on their social science research on homosexuality and common myths (www.narth.com) Dr. Janet has a wonderful C.D. on the Catholic Church and same sex attaction as part of her series on "Sexual Common Sense" (http://www.janetesmith.com/sexual-common-sense-12-talk-series/). The Family Research Council has excellent resources on this topic. "Getting it Straight" is a wonderful question/answer book available on that website. It also gets the current numbers of homosexuals and lesbian right, and unlike the 10% homosexual statistic currently being brandished about, the real numbers of lesbians and homosexuals is more in the 1-2% range. Kohen was himself an active homosexual who felt uncomfortable with his condition, and was able to get treatment for this, and is now a happily married man and became a psychoanalyst and helps others (thousands already helped) emerge from the homosexual/same sex attraction. He attributes same sex attraction to a disordered/defensive mechanism which occurs after a childhood trauma or event. It must be acknowledged, although there are many theories for different possible triggers which may help activate a same sex attraction, no gay gene has ever been defined, and no definitive social trigger has been defined either, although there are a set of conditions which can create the same sex attraction (parental conflicts, early sexual exposure, lack of masculinity/feminity, athletics ability, etc). The homosexual "marriage" is largely a myth. There are now many studies (Kinsey Institute and others) which show that for almost half of all gay men, the average number oflifetime sexual partners climbs into the mid-hundreds of partners, and in a quarter of homosexuals, the number is in the THOUSANDS. One study followed gay men over 5 years, and almost all partners had at least one other sexual encounter by the 5th year of the so-called monogamous relationship. Even though 2 people may be "emotionally" committed to each other, they still have extra relationships. The numbers of substance abuse, domestic violence and mental illness are all greater in homosexuals as compared with their heterosexual counterparts. Moreover, one study noted that almost half of all gay men presenting to a STD clinic recounted a story of being forced to have sex with an older, more powerful homosexual man by the age they were 12. The safety of children and young teens placed in adoptive homes with homosexual couples should definitely be raised. The amounts of STDs in gay men versus "straight men" are much higher. Almost 50% of gay men followed for 10 years acquired HIV in one study. Another study noted that the incidence of anal cancer was up to 4,000% higher in gay men than in "straight" males. I would value anyone's further input or if I have misstated something, please feel free to correct the information. Blessings, Dr. Peck, MD, CCD, ABFM, Marquette NFP InstructorPecks Family Practice, PLC1688 W Granada Blvd, Ste 2AOrmond Beach, FL 32174(386) 677-2018 fax: (386) 676-0737 cell: (386) 212-9777