Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido

[Guest guest]

Could it be that the spouses of contracepting  wives  are aware of the fact that their wives are not really receiving them,  and that they are being used,  even as the wife may feel the same way… Hanna From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of , Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 8:06 PM' 'Subject: Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido What I've seen over the years also applies to the men, who aren't on meds. The SHBG clearly plays a role for women, but I suspect there is more at play. From: Hanna Klaus [mailto:hannaklaus@...] Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 03:04 PM < > Subject: RE: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido I suspect the loss of libido of contracepting women is related to the fact that the steroids bind to SHBG thereby reducing the availability of free testosterone. Ergo. There are studies which confirm this. The figures for relations are Greenblat’s. Hanna Klaus From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of , Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:37 PM' 'Subject: RE: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido It may be interesting to note that all couples have times of waiting. Some studies have shown that marital couples have relations about the same # of times monthly, whether contracepting or using NFP – 5-8? It is just on different days. Contracepting couples usually wait during times of heavy menses, illness (vomiting!), exhaustion, work travel, etc. However, libido is another matter entirely. Nothing seems to spark libido than being told “not now.†The Creighton method asks couples to wait a full month of first charting, to allow the mucus pattern to be clear. That waiting has an amazing effect on libido. I have had many patients come to me for problems with libido. If young, they have almost always been contracepting. I’ve never once had any of our many NFP couples complain about libido. And even in the secular world of sex therapy, one of the first steps with a libido problem or sexual performance dysfunction has been to stop everything. , MDFront Royal, VA From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Len BlackwellSent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:08 PM Subject: RE: Time to raise a fundamental question Sorry to keep popping up.For those with problems with waiting as Hanna calls it, would it help them if they knew when the waiting would be over and how long it would last/LenAt 03:50 a.m. 3/05/2012, you wrote: I think this is a valuable topic. In my experience with couples I have worked with as well as that of local NFP teachers, this obviously varies from couple to couple.Our observation is that couples who abstained before marriage did not have a problem with abstinence with NFP, but couples who did NOT abstain before marriage had more trouble. This is overcome through prayer, as well as behavioral techniques.Future studies on the topic of difficulty with abstinence should include the variables of premarital intercourse and previous use of contraception of various types. D Wouldn't the elevation or non-elevation of the basal temperature after a mucus patch accomplish the same thing? Kippley

[Guest guest]

And in addition to reduced testosterone levels causing decreased libido in contracepting women there is the whole field of phermones... Recall Janet 's "Contraception Why Not" talk about the work of Lionel Tiger and the "tshirt" test whereby contracepting women pick "loser" partners due to altered phermone sensing mechanism and conversely, the role of the pill altering phermone production in women making contracepting women seem less attractive to men, thus potentially altering the man's "response"...(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/236046.stm) Blessings,Dr.

Peck, MD, CCD, ABFM, Marquette NFP InstructorPecks Family Practice, PLC1688 W Granada Blvd, Ste 2AOrmond Beach, FL 32174(386) 677-2018 fax: (386) 676-0737 cell: (386) 212-9777 From: ", " <fdennehy@...> "' '" < > Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido

What I've seen over the years also applies to the men, who aren't on meds. The SHBG clearly plays a role for women, but I suspect there is more at play.

From: Hanna Klaus [mailto:hannaklaus@...]

Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 03:04 PM

< >

Subject: RE: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido

I suspect the loss of libido of contracepting women is related to the fact that the steroids bind to SHBG thereby reducing the availability of free testosterone. Ergo. There are studies which

confirm this. The figures for relations are Greenblat’s. Hanna Klaus

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of ,

Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 12:37 PM

' '

Subject: RE: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido

It may be interesting to note that all couples have times of waiting. Some studies have shown that marital couples have relations about the same # of times monthly, whether contracepting or

using NFP – 5-8? It is just on different days. Contracepting couples usually wait during times of heavy menses, illness (vomiting!), exhaustion, work travel, etc.

However, libido is another matter entirely. Nothing seems to spark libido than being told “not now.†The Creighton method asks couples to wait a full month of first charting, to allow the

mucus pattern to be clear. That waiting has an amazing effect on libido.

I have had many patients come to me for problems with libido. If young, they have almost always been contracepting. I’ve never once had any of our many NFP couples complain about libido.

And even in the secular world of sex therapy, one of the first steps with a libido problem or sexual performance dysfunction has been to stop everything. , MD Front Royal, VA

From:

[mailto: ]

On Behalf Of Len Blackwell

Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:08 PM

Subject: RE: Time to raise a fundamental question

Sorry to keep popping up.

For those with problems with waiting as Hanna calls it, would it help them if they knew when the waiting would be over and how long it would last/

Len

At 03:50 a.m. 3/05/2012, you wrote:

I think this is a valuable topic. In my experience with couples I have worked with as well as that of local NFP teachers, this obviously varies from couple to couple.

Our observation is that couples who abstained before marriage did not have a problem with abstinence with NFP, but couples who did NOT abstain before marriage had more trouble. This is overcome through prayer, as well as behavioral techniques.

Future studies on the topic of difficulty with abstinence should include the variables of premarital intercourse and previous use of contraception of various types.

D

Wouldn't the elevation or non-elevation of the basal temperature after a mucus patch accomplish the same thing?

Kippley

[Guest guest]

Years ago when it was just assumed the anti-libidinous aspect of OCPs was a purely biochemical or hormonal effect, the Royal College (RCGP) investigators, who had a vested interest in proving otherwise, made the case that it was likely not that but rather was a psychological or psychosexual complication of practicing contraception, and that it would likely occur no matter what type of contraception was practiced. I found this fascinating for very different reasons because for me it fit very nicely with II's anthropology of the conjugal act, providing a new and rather elegant -- at least I have thought -- psychodynamic theory of women, contraception, and sexual dysfunction (don't mean to leave out the guys but they simply haven't been as adequately studied).

The RCGP, drawing on placebo-controlled studies by Cullberg and others (1) showed fairly convincingly (there was even one by Aznar-Ramos where Mexican women were lied to, being told they were taking OCPs for contraception when they were only taking sugar pills but they nonetheless experienced striking amounts of the typical OCP-related psychosexual difficulties including loss of libido) that when one could isolate the contraceptive (existential or psychodynamic) effect away from the hormonal-biochemical effect in these studies, one could demonstrate that the purely hormonal effect was the minor influence on symptoms like loss of libido, mood swings, depressive symptoms, etc., while the contraceptive-psychodynamic effect (for lack of a better term) was by far the more robust effect. Steve and I (2) did our own analysis of this by looking at the entire world literature of "psychological effects" of OCP use, and came to the same conclusion. I find this theory attractive not only because it comports with my experience in actual practice, but because if proves it tends to support the Church's anthropology of the conjugal act, whereby in both women and men but especially in women, the baby-making appetitive forces are tightly bound in a unity to the bonding forces, as Janet and others have always said. In nature then it would not be surprising that taking a whack at the baby-making aspects also powerfully deals a blow to the bonding or libidinous aspects (at least libido is one aspect of this)

[Guest guest]

Years ago when it was just assumed the anti-libidinous aspect of OCPs was a purely biochemical or hormonal effect, the Royal College (RCGP) investigators, who had a vested interest in proving otherwise, made the case that it was likely not that but rather was a psychological or psychosexual complication of practicing contraception, and that it would likely occur no matter what type of contraception was practiced. I found this fascinating for very different reasons because for me it fit very nicely with II's anthropology of the conjugal act, providing a new and rather elegant -- at least I have thought -- psychodynamic theory of women, contraception, and sexual dysfunction (don't mean to leave out the guys but they simply haven't been as adequately studied).

The RCGP, drawing on placebo-controlled studies by Cullberg and others (1) showed fairly convincingly (there was even one by Aznar-Ramos where Mexican women were lied to, being told they were taking OCPs for contraception when they were only taking sugar pills but they nonetheless experienced striking amounts of the typical OCP-related psychosexual difficulties including loss of libido) that when one could isolate the contraceptive (existential or psychodynamic) effect away from the hormonal-biochemical effect in these studies, one could demonstrate that the purely hormonal effect was the minor influence on symptoms like loss of libido, mood swings, depressive symptoms, etc., while the contraceptive-psychodynamic effect (for lack of a better term) was by far the more robust effect. Steve and I (2) did our own analysis of this by looking at the entire world literature of "psychological effects" of OCP use, and came to the same conclusion. I find this theory attractive not only because it comports with my experience in actual practice, but because if proves it tends to support the Church's anthropology of the conjugal act, whereby in both women and men but especially in women, the baby-making appetitive forces are tightly bound in a unity to the bonding forces, as Janet and others have always said. In nature then it would not be surprising that taking a whack at the baby-making aspects also powerfully deals a blow to the bonding or libidinous aspects (at least libido is one aspect of this)

[Guest guest]

Dear Dominic, why don't you submit this piece to the Linacre Quarterly NFP edition so that others can also benefit from your beautiful reflections. BlessingsSent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: Dominic <pedullad@...>Sender: Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 13:14:17 -0400 (EDT)< >Reply Subject: Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting andlibido Years ago when it was just assumed the anti-libidinous aspect of OCPs was a purely biochemical or hormonal effect, the Royal College (RCGP) investigators, who had a vested interest in proving otherwise, made the case that it was likely not that but rather was a psychological or psychosexual complication of practicing contraception, and that it would likely occur no matter what type of contraception was practiced. I found this fascinating for very different reasons because for me it fit very nicely with II's anthropology of the conjugal act, providing a new and rather elegant -- at least I have thought -- psychodynamic theory of women, contraception, and sexual dysfunction (don't mean to leave out the guys but they simply haven't been as adequately studied).The RCGP, drawing on placebo-controlled studies by Cullberg and others (1) showed fairly convincingly (there was even one by Aznar-Ramos where Mexican women were lied to, being told they were taking OCPs for contraception when they were only taking sugar pills but they nonetheless experienced striking amounts of the typical OCP-related psychosexual difficulties including loss of libido) that when one could isolate the contraceptive (existential or psychodynamic) effect away from the hormonal-biochemical effect in these studies, one could demonstrate that the purely hormonal effect was the minor influence on symptoms like loss of libido, mood swings, depressive symptoms, etc., while the contraceptive-psychodynamic effect (for lack of a better term) was by far the more robust effect. Steve and I (2) did our own analysis of this by looking at the entire world literature of "psychological effects" of OCP use, and came to the same conclusion. I find this theory attractive not only because it comports with my experience in actual practice, but because if proves it tends to support the Church's anthropology of the conjugal act, whereby in both women and men but especially in women, the baby-making appetitive forces are tightly bound in a unity to the bonding forces, as Janet and others have always said. In nature then it would not be surprising that taking a whack at the baby-making aspects also powerfully deals a blow to the bonding or libidinous aspects (at least libido is one aspect of this).That is the primary reason I extended our study to the case of libido or sexual function and tubal sterilization, finding that women experience a significant increase in sexual dysfunction after tubal sterilization independent of any physical problems, and reported this in JRM (3).It would be very interesting if more work were done here. Edith Stein said that women as compared with men were more psychosomatic (a strength in this context rather than a weakness), and that their souls were more tightly bound to the body in every way than men, so that when we see women in practice and perhaps downplay some of the more psychosomatic and less organic complaints, we might begin to see the body of a woman and the symptoms sometimes reported as speaking a language to us. The language is an attempt to communicate that something is amiss, and often it may be something spiritual rather than physical. These complaints may be the way that women effectively forbidden from complaining about contraception nonetheless express it the only way permitted to them in Western society, with psychosomatic symptomatology symbolically tied to sexuality, when in actuality the more specific or direct issue is the deliberate antagonism of fertility.This would go a long way towards actually explaining not only libido issues but also the "hysterectomy epidemic", which in the west is a complex interaction between doctors hostile to the life-giving power (whether they realize it themselves or not), and women repressing actively that same power, a power that has become "quarantined" in their psychic life like some kind of foreign body which is contrary to peace as long as it remains intact as a bodily power. Mining this rich data is a key thing for Catholic investigators to do, and a key service to science too, since as Benedict says faith needs to help science a bit.But it should suffice to say there is more here than just steroid biochemistry at work!1)Acta Psychiatr Scand Suppl. 1972;236:1-86.Mood changes and menstrual symptoms with different gestagen/estrogen combinations. A double blind comparison with a placebo.Cullberg J.2)Med Hypotheses. 2004;63(2):268-73.Do the emotional side-effects of hormonal contraceptives come from pharmacologic or psychological mechanisms? SA, Dowell M, Pedulla D, McCauley L.3)J Reprod Med. 2007 Apr;52(4):263-72.Effects of tubal ligation among American women.Warehime MN, Bass L, Pedulla D.SourceDepartment of Sociology, University of Oklahoma, Norman 73019, USA. nwarehime@...PMID: 4565340 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Sincerely yours,Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@..."...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores) RE: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido It may be interesting to note that all couples have times of waiting. Some studies have shown that marital couples have relations about the same # of times monthly, whether contracepting orusing NFP – 5-8? It is just on different days. Contracepting couples usually wait during times of heavy menses, illness (vomiting!), exhaustion, work travel, etc.However, libido is another matter entirely. Nothing seems to spark libido than being told “not now.†The Creighton method asks couples to wait a full month of first charting, to allow themucus pattern to be clear. That waiting has an amazing effect on libido. I have had many patients come to me for problems with libido. If young, they have almost always been contracepting. I’ve never once had any of our many NFP couples complain about libido. And even in the secular world of sex therapy, one of the first steps with a libido problem or sexual performance dysfunction has been to stop everything. , MDFront Royal, VA From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Len BlackwellSent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:08 PM Subject: RE: Time to raise a fundamental question Sorry to keep popping up.For those with problems with waiting as Hanna calls it, would it help them if they knew when the waiting would be over and how long it would last/LenAt 03:50 a.m. 3/05/2012, you wrote: I think this is a valuable topic. In my experience with couples I have worked with as well as that of local NFP teachers, this obviously varies from couple to couple.Our observation is that couples who abstained before marriage did not have a problem with abstinence with NFP, but couples who did NOT abstain before marriage had more trouble. This is overcome through prayer, as well as behavioral techniques.Future studies on the topic of difficulty with abstinence should include the variables of premarital intercourse and previous use of contraception of various types. D Wouldn't the elevation or non-elevation of the basal temperature after a mucus patch accomplish the same thing? Kippley

[Guest guest]

Dear Dominic, why don't you submit this piece to the Linacre Quarterly NFP edition so that others can also benefit from your beautiful reflections. BlessingsSent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: Dominic <pedullad@...>Sender: Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 13:14:17 -0400 (EDT)< >Reply Subject: Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting andlibido Years ago when it was just assumed the anti-libidinous aspect of OCPs was a purely biochemical or hormonal effect, the Royal College (RCGP) investigators, who had a vested interest in proving otherwise, made the case that it was likely not that but rather was a psychological or psychosexual complication of practicing contraception, and that it would likely occur no matter what type of contraception was practiced. I found this fascinating for very different reasons because for me it fit very nicely with II's anthropology of the conjugal act, providing a new and rather elegant -- at least I have thought -- psychodynamic theory of women, contraception, and sexual dysfunction (don't mean to leave out the guys but they simply haven't been as adequately studied).The RCGP, drawing on placebo-controlled studies by Cullberg and others (1) showed fairly convincingly (there was even one by Aznar-Ramos where Mexican women were lied to, being told they were taking OCPs for contraception when they were only taking sugar pills but they nonetheless experienced striking amounts of the typical OCP-related psychosexual difficulties including loss of libido) that when one could isolate the contraceptive (existential or psychodynamic) effect away from the hormonal-biochemical effect in these studies, one could demonstrate that the purely hormonal effect was the minor influence on symptoms like loss of libido, mood swings, depressive symptoms, etc., while the contraceptive-psychodynamic effect (for lack of a better term) was by far the more robust effect. Steve and I (2) did our own analysis of this by looking at the entire world literature of "psychological effects" of OCP use, and came to the same conclusion. I find this theory attractive not only because it comports with my experience in actual practice, but because if proves it tends to support the Church's anthropology of the conjugal act, whereby in both women and men but especially in women, the baby-making appetitive forces are tightly bound in a unity to the bonding forces, as Janet and others have always said. In nature then it would not be surprising that taking a whack at the baby-making aspects also powerfully deals a blow to the bonding or libidinous aspects (at least libido is one aspect of this).That is the primary reason I extended our study to the case of libido or sexual function and tubal sterilization, finding that women experience a significant increase in sexual dysfunction after tubal sterilization independent of any physical problems, and reported this in JRM (3).It would be very interesting if more work were done here. Edith Stein said that women as compared with men were more psychosomatic (a strength in this context rather than a weakness), and that their souls were more tightly bound to the body in every way than men, so that when we see women in practice and perhaps downplay some of the more psychosomatic and less organic complaints, we might begin to see the body of a woman and the symptoms sometimes reported as speaking a language to us. The language is an attempt to communicate that something is amiss, and often it may be something spiritual rather than physical. These complaints may be the way that women effectively forbidden from complaining about contraception nonetheless express it the only way permitted to them in Western society, with psychosomatic symptomatology symbolically tied to sexuality, when in actuality the more specific or direct issue is the deliberate antagonism of fertility.This would go a long way towards actually explaining not only libido issues but also the "hysterectomy epidemic", which in the west is a complex interaction between doctors hostile to the life-giving power (whether they realize it themselves or not), and women repressing actively that same power, a power that has become "quarantined" in their psychic life like some kind of foreign body which is contrary to peace as long as it remains intact as a bodily power. Mining this rich data is a key thing for Catholic investigators to do, and a key service to science too, since as Benedict says faith needs to help science a bit.But it should suffice to say there is more here than just steroid biochemistry at work!1)Acta Psychiatr Scand Suppl. 1972;236:1-86.Mood changes and menstrual symptoms with different gestagen/estrogen combinations. A double blind comparison with a placebo.Cullberg J.2)Med Hypotheses. 2004;63(2):268-73.Do the emotional side-effects of hormonal contraceptives come from pharmacologic or psychological mechanisms? SA, Dowell M, Pedulla D, McCauley L.3)J Reprod Med. 2007 Apr;52(4):263-72.Effects of tubal ligation among American women.Warehime MN, Bass L, Pedulla D.SourceDepartment of Sociology, University of Oklahoma, Norman 73019, USA. nwarehime@...PMID: 4565340 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Sincerely yours,Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@..."...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores) RE: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido It may be interesting to note that all couples have times of waiting. Some studies have shown that marital couples have relations about the same # of times monthly, whether contracepting orusing NFP – 5-8? It is just on different days. Contracepting couples usually wait during times of heavy menses, illness (vomiting!), exhaustion, work travel, etc.However, libido is another matter entirely. Nothing seems to spark libido than being told “not now.†The Creighton method asks couples to wait a full month of first charting, to allow themucus pattern to be clear. That waiting has an amazing effect on libido. I have had many patients come to me for problems with libido. If young, they have almost always been contracepting. I’ve never once had any of our many NFP couples complain about libido. And even in the secular world of sex therapy, one of the first steps with a libido problem or sexual performance dysfunction has been to stop everything. , MDFront Royal, VA From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Len BlackwellSent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:08 PM Subject: RE: Time to raise a fundamental question Sorry to keep popping up.For those with problems with waiting as Hanna calls it, would it help them if they knew when the waiting would be over and how long it would last/LenAt 03:50 a.m. 3/05/2012, you wrote: I think this is a valuable topic. In my experience with couples I have worked with as well as that of local NFP teachers, this obviously varies from couple to couple.Our observation is that couples who abstained before marriage did not have a problem with abstinence with NFP, but couples who did NOT abstain before marriage had more trouble. This is overcome through prayer, as well as behavioral techniques.Future studies on the topic of difficulty with abstinence should include the variables of premarital intercourse and previous use of contraception of various types. D Wouldn't the elevation or non-elevation of the basal temperature after a mucus patch accomplish the same thing? Kippley

[Guest guest]

Dear Dominic, why don't you submit this piece to the Linacre Quarterly NFP edition so that others can also benefit from your beautiful reflections. BlessingsSent via BlackBerry by AT&TFrom: Dominic <pedullad@...>Sender: Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 13:14:17 -0400 (EDT)< >Reply Subject: Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting andlibido Years ago when it was just assumed the anti-libidinous aspect of OCPs was a purely biochemical or hormonal effect, the Royal College (RCGP) investigators, who had a vested interest in proving otherwise, made the case that it was likely not that but rather was a psychological or psychosexual complication of practicing contraception, and that it would likely occur no matter what type of contraception was practiced. I found this fascinating for very different reasons because for me it fit very nicely with II's anthropology of the conjugal act, providing a new and rather elegant -- at least I have thought -- psychodynamic theory of women, contraception, and sexual dysfunction (don't mean to leave out the guys but they simply haven't been as adequately studied).The RCGP, drawing on placebo-controlled studies by Cullberg and others (1) showed fairly convincingly (there was even one by Aznar-Ramos where Mexican women were lied to, being told they were taking OCPs for contraception when they were only taking sugar pills but they nonetheless experienced striking amounts of the typical OCP-related psychosexual difficulties including loss of libido) that when one could isolate the contraceptive (existential or psychodynamic) effect away from the hormonal-biochemical effect in these studies, one could demonstrate that the purely hormonal effect was the minor influence on symptoms like loss of libido, mood swings, depressive symptoms, etc., while the contraceptive-psychodynamic effect (for lack of a better term) was by far the more robust effect. Steve and I (2) did our own analysis of this by looking at the entire world literature of "psychological effects" of OCP use, and came to the same conclusion. I find this theory attractive not only because it comports with my experience in actual practice, but because if proves it tends to support the Church's anthropology of the conjugal act, whereby in both women and men but especially in women, the baby-making appetitive forces are tightly bound in a unity to the bonding forces, as Janet and others have always said. In nature then it would not be surprising that taking a whack at the baby-making aspects also powerfully deals a blow to the bonding or libidinous aspects (at least libido is one aspect of this).That is the primary reason I extended our study to the case of libido or sexual function and tubal sterilization, finding that women experience a significant increase in sexual dysfunction after tubal sterilization independent of any physical problems, and reported this in JRM (3).It would be very interesting if more work were done here. Edith Stein said that women as compared with men were more psychosomatic (a strength in this context rather than a weakness), and that their souls were more tightly bound to the body in every way than men, so that when we see women in practice and perhaps downplay some of the more psychosomatic and less organic complaints, we might begin to see the body of a woman and the symptoms sometimes reported as speaking a language to us. The language is an attempt to communicate that something is amiss, and often it may be something spiritual rather than physical. These complaints may be the way that women effectively forbidden from complaining about contraception nonetheless express it the only way permitted to them in Western society, with psychosomatic symptomatology symbolically tied to sexuality, when in actuality the more specific or direct issue is the deliberate antagonism of fertility.This would go a long way towards actually explaining not only libido issues but also the "hysterectomy epidemic", which in the west is a complex interaction between doctors hostile to the life-giving power (whether they realize it themselves or not), and women repressing actively that same power, a power that has become "quarantined" in their psychic life like some kind of foreign body which is contrary to peace as long as it remains intact as a bodily power. Mining this rich data is a key thing for Catholic investigators to do, and a key service to science too, since as Benedict says faith needs to help science a bit.But it should suffice to say there is more here than just steroid biochemistry at work!1)Acta Psychiatr Scand Suppl. 1972;236:1-86.Mood changes and menstrual symptoms with different gestagen/estrogen combinations. A double blind comparison with a placebo.Cullberg J.2)Med Hypotheses. 2004;63(2):268-73.Do the emotional side-effects of hormonal contraceptives come from pharmacologic or psychological mechanisms? SA, Dowell M, Pedulla D, McCauley L.3)J Reprod Med. 2007 Apr;52(4):263-72.Effects of tubal ligation among American women.Warehime MN, Bass L, Pedulla D.SourceDepartment of Sociology, University of Oklahoma, Norman 73019, USA. nwarehime@...PMID: 4565340 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Sincerely yours,Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPhInterventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning ResearcherMedical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)405-947-2228 (office)405-834-7506 (cell)405-947-2307 (FAX)pedullad@..."...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores) RE: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido It may be interesting to note that all couples have times of waiting. Some studies have shown that marital couples have relations about the same # of times monthly, whether contracepting orusing NFP – 5-8? It is just on different days. Contracepting couples usually wait during times of heavy menses, illness (vomiting!), exhaustion, work travel, etc.However, libido is another matter entirely. Nothing seems to spark libido than being told “not now.†The Creighton method asks couples to wait a full month of first charting, to allow themucus pattern to be clear. That waiting has an amazing effect on libido. I have had many patients come to me for problems with libido. If young, they have almost always been contracepting. I’ve never once had any of our many NFP couples complain about libido. And even in the secular world of sex therapy, one of the first steps with a libido problem or sexual performance dysfunction has been to stop everything. , MDFront Royal, VA From: [mailto: ]On Behalf Of Len BlackwellSent: Wednesday, May 02, 2012 10:08 PM Subject: RE: Time to raise a fundamental question Sorry to keep popping up.For those with problems with waiting as Hanna calls it, would it help them if they knew when the waiting would be over and how long it would last/LenAt 03:50 a.m. 3/05/2012, you wrote: I think this is a valuable topic. In my experience with couples I have worked with as well as that of local NFP teachers, this obviously varies from couple to couple.Our observation is that couples who abstained before marriage did not have a problem with abstinence with NFP, but couples who did NOT abstain before marriage had more trouble. This is overcome through prayer, as well as behavioral techniques.Future studies on the topic of difficulty with abstinence should include the variables of premarital intercourse and previous use of contraception of various types. D Wouldn't the elevation or non-elevation of the basal temperature after a mucus patch accomplish the same thing? Kippley

[Guest guest]

Dominic: That is awesome !! Paddy Jim Baggot MD From: rbamer2@...Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 18:04:42 +0000Subject: Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and libido

Dear Dominic, why don't you submit this piece to the Linacre Quarterly NFP edition so that others can also benefit from your beautiful reflections. BlessingsSent via BlackBerry by AT & TFrom: Dominic <pedullad@...>

Sender:

Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 13:14:17 -0400 (EDT)< >Reply

Subject: Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and

libido

Years ago when it was just assumed the anti-libidinous aspect of OCPs was a purely biochemical or hormonal effect, the Royal College (RCGP) investigators, who had a vested interest in proving otherwise, made the case that it was likely not that but rather was a psychological or psychosexual complication of practicing contraception, and that it would likely occur no matter what type of contraception was practiced. I found this fascinating for very different reasons because for me it fit very nicely with II's anthropology of the conjugal act, providing a new and rather elegant -- at least I have thought -- psychodynamic theory of women, contraception, and sexual dysfunction (don't mean to leave out the guys but they simply haven't been as adequately studied).

The RCGP, drawing on placebo-controlled studies by Cullberg and others (1) showed fairly convincingly (there was even one by Aznar-Ramos where Mexican women were lied to, being told they were taking OCPs for contraception when they were only taking sugar pills but they nonetheless experienced striking amounts of the typical OCP-related psychosexual difficulties including loss of libido) that when one could isolate the contraceptive (existential or psychodynamic) effect away from the hormonal-biochemical effect in these studies, one could demonstrate that the purely hormonal effect was the minor influence on symptoms like loss of libido, mood swings, depressive symptoms, etc., while the contraceptive-psychodynamic effect (for lack of a better term) was by far the more robust effect. Steve and I (2) did our own analysis of this by looking at the entire world literature of "psychological effects" of OCP use, and came to the same conclusion. I find this theory attractive not only because it comports with my experience in actual practice, but because if proves it tends to support the Church's anthropology of the conjugal act, whereby in both women and men but especially in women, the baby-making appetitive forces are tightly bound in a unity to the bonding forces, as Janet and others have always said. In nature then it would not be surprising that taking a whack at the baby-making aspects also powerfully deals a blow to the bonding or libidinous aspects (at least libido is one aspect of this)

[Guest guest]

Thank you. Perhaps I can.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and

libido

Years ago when it was just assumed the anti-libidinous aspect of OCPs was a purely biochemical or hormonal effect, the Royal College (RCGP) investigators, who had a vested interest in proving otherwise, made the case that it was likely not that but rather was a psychological or psychosexual complication of practicing contraception, and that it would likely occur no matter what type of contraception was practiced. I found this fascinating for very different reasons because for me it fit very nicely with II's anthropology of the conjugal act, providing a new and rather elegant -- at least I have thought -- psychodynamic theory of women, contraception, and sexual dysfunction (don't mean to leave out the guys but they simply haven't been as adequately studied).

The RCGP, drawing on placebo-controlled studies by Cullberg and others (1) showed fairly convincingly (there was even one by Aznar-Ramos where Mexican women were lied to, being told they were taking OCPs for contraception when they were only taking sugar pills but they nonetheless experienced striking amounts of the typical OCP-related psychosexual difficulties including loss of libido) that when one could isolate the contraceptive (existential or psychodynamic) effect away from the hormonal-biochemical effect in these studies, one could demonstrate that the purely hormonal effect was the minor influence on symptoms like loss of libido, mood swings, depressive symptoms, etc., while the contraceptive-psychodynamic effect (for lack of a better term) was by far the more robust effect. Steve and I (2) did our own analysis of this by looking at the entire world literature of "psychological effects" of OCP use, and came to the same conclusion. I find this theory attractive not only because it comports with my experience in actual practice, but because if proves it tends to support the Church's anthropology of the conjugal act, whereby in both women and men but especially in women, the baby-making appetitive forces are tightly bound in a unity to the bonding forces, as Janet and others have always said. In nature then it would not be surprising that taking a whack at the baby-making aspects also powerfully deals a blow to the bonding or libidinous aspects (at least libido is one aspect of this)

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the kind words Paddy Jim.

Sincerely yours,

Dominic M. Pedulla MD, FACC, CNFPMC, ABVM, ACPh

Interventional Cardiologist, Endovascular Diplomate, Varicose Vein Specialist, Noncontraceptive Family Planning Consultant, Family Planning Researcher

Medical Director, The Oklahoma Vein and Endovascular Center (www.noveinok.com, veininfo@...)

Executive Director, The Edith Stein Foundation (www.theedithsteinfoundation.com)

405-947-2228 (office)

405-834-7506 (cell)

405-947-2307 (FAX)

pedullad@...

"...the priestly ministry is not just a pastoral service; it ensures the continuity of the functions entrusted by Christ to the Apostles and the continuity of the powers related to those functions. Adaptation to civilizations and times therefore cannot abolish, on essential points, the sacramental reference to constitutive events of Christianity and to Christ himself." (Inter Insignores)

Re: Time to raise a fundamental question: waiting and

libido

Years ago when it was just assumed the anti-libidinous aspect of OCPs was a purely biochemical or hormonal effect, the Royal College (RCGP) investigators, who had a vested interest in proving otherwise, made the case that it was likely not that but rather was a psychological or psychosexual complication of practicing contraception, and that it would likely occur no matter what type of contraception was practiced. I found this fascinating for very different reasons because for me it fit very nicely with II's anthropology of the conjugal act, providing a new and rather elegant -- at least I have thought -- psychodynamic theory of women, contraception, and sexual dysfunction (don't mean to leave out the guys but they simply haven't been as adequately studied).

The RCGP, drawing on placebo-controlled studies by Cullberg and others (1) showed fairly convincingly (there was even one by Aznar-Ramos where Mexican women were lied to, being told they were taking OCPs for contraception when they were only taking sugar pills but they nonetheless experienced striking amounts of the typical OCP-related psychosexual difficulties including loss of libido) that when one could isolate the contraceptive (existential or psychodynamic) effect away from the hormonal-biochemical effect in these studies, one could demonstrate that the purely hormonal effect was the minor influence on symptoms like loss of libido, mood swings, depressive symptoms, etc., while the contraceptive-psychodynamic effect (for lack of a better term) was by far the more robust effect. Steve and I (2) did our own analysis of this by looking at the entire world literature of "psychological effects" of OCP use, and came to the same conclusion. I find this theory attractive not only because it comports with my experience in actual practice, but because if proves it tends to support the Church's anthropology of the conjugal act, whereby in both women and men but especially in women, the baby-making appetitive forces are tightly bound in a unity to the bonding forces, as Janet and others have always said. In nature then it would not be surprising that taking a whack at the baby-making aspects also powerfully deals a blow to the bonding or libidinous aspects (at least libido is one aspect of this)