Re: We are losing the war on terror!

July 25, 2005

Evan,

You have some good points. I don't think our free nations need to have national ID cards. All we need to do is tighten border security and screen the right people within our nations. I mean, we know who is committing the terror attacks so those are the people who need to have the attention focussed on them, not the rest of us.

Surveillance cameras are also something of a catch-22. In England all they did was to push the crime into areas where there weren't cameras, which caused the cameras to expand, etc. These days crime is creeping back into the camera areas as the criminals become more saavy about avoid detection and capture. I have noticed them in some places out on the streets in some places I frequent in my travels. It is very annoying to see them there and even more annoying to see a camera following YOU when you aren't doing anything and have no intention of doing anything. I flipped them off one time but they kept watching me, but no cops came to arrest me.

One of our Founding Fathers, I think it was Jefferson but I can never remember, said that "people who give up their freedom for safety deserve neither freedom nor safety." It is getting annoying over here in the US, but I'm not really going to start sweating until they try to ban guns. They've made half hearted measures and some cities it is illegal to own one (unless you are a criminal, celebrity or one of the elites: if you are Joe Average you are just meat for the bad guys). Not surprisingly those cities also have the highest crime rates in the nation. As long as the average citizen remains armed, there is only so much the government can do.

You are also right that we have more to fear from domestic criminals than terrorists. My house has been burglarized once and I have run off intruders twice. IN all cases they lived in the welfare projects just a couple of blocks away. While travelling, I have been mugged twice, both times it ended badly for the bad guy because I was armed: stun gun so they lived but were hurting for a while. There was one time I might have been hassled by some potential terrorists but I won't go into that now. Ask if you want to hear about it.

If we could just get over this PC nonsense, we could target the right people and domestic terrorism would be an even more remote possbiility. But as long as we keep up this farce against profiling and their civil rights, they will have the upper hand.

I was also against the Iraq invasion. Afganistan was justified because that is where Bin Laudin was and the government supported him. Without the distraction of Iraq, we could have had far more troops in their and the Taliban and Al Quida would be a bad memory by now. Iraq has had the advantage that so many of the terrorists are going over there to die rather than launching attacks in the rest of the world.

However, our being there has strengthened their case some. On the other hand, their attacks on Muslims is destroying their credability among muslims. Things are heating up in Iraq because the tide is turning against them. They are getting desperate over there so they are making more attacks. It is believed that more and more of the leadership is fleeing the country and seeking sanctuary elsewhere since Iraq is becoming a killing ground for them. They also know that once the Iraq government gets more organized, their chances of a good outcome are going down.

Still, my idea always was to attack the terrorists on the periphery, like Afganistan, the ines, Malaysia and of course here at home, and force them to concentrate in the Middle East. In the mean time we would be busting butt to make oil alternatives so we could then cut off the middle east. Without their only source of money and without Westerners to pick on, the Arabs would go back to tearing each other apart.

July 25, 2005

Even, hi

I agree with you in some aspects: nti americanisms is growing, I believe most of Australia is anti american and anti Bush, my country is kind of that too-I am not anymore-and who is winning? Comunist China, a place where you cannot have freedom to search for some topics in , Google, etc, as they are not aloowed by government and citizens can be killed by government, whenever they disagree.

I will post below some of the thing is behind all the misery we see in the world now. Read it all, with speciall notice to the political thing behind it. There is a MILLIONAIRE thing behind the struggle to destroy some democracies.

(In my country there is NO WAY we will get rid of criminality related to drug power. They finace some leftists parties, they all belong to a thing called Foro de Sao o, where Fidel Castro, as well as many presidentes, from South America or comunist countries, as well as FARC-terrorism from Colombia but who is everywhere and the chilen terrorist groups called MIR, they all belong to this RICH association who joined togehter after Berlim wall was down, with the objective of making comunism alive again. All you will eventually read in the press on the violence in my country is due to the FARCS, but nothing will ever be done-unless Bush invades here, haha-as this groups gave money to help elect actual president, well, they were all in the same group created in 1990. They meet every year, and the criminal folks are members with same objective as the ones who are mere 'politics' such as Fidel Castro, etc-raise comunist in the world, finance campaigns pro 'peace' and agaisnt some democracies, or Bush, or Tony Blair, or force people in Spain to relate the bomb with the victory of a non comunist party, etc.)

)

You are sooo right when you put:

The chineses are laughing loud because there economy is driving them to a commanding position while we chsae shadows. The Chinese will be the ultimate winners.

'Excerpted from Red Cocaine: The Drugging of America and the West by ph D. s, Story, L. Story, Ray S. Cline. Copyright © 1999. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved'In 1996, annual revenues derived from global criminalist activities were estimated by the World Bank's experts at $1.2 trillion, of which $500 billion were thought to represent profits. These were and remain highly conservative estimates. The narcotics trade alone is in the $500 billion or more range. A more realistic estimate today would probably be of the order of $2 trillion per year - with $1 trillion, more or less, by way of straight profit; and some experts would raise these estimates further, towards $3.0 trillion annually in turnover. That is to say, governments, banks and the global criminalists are arranging the transfer of at least $1.0 trillion every year of national and private wealth into the bank accounts of the global criminal fraternity - a massive transfer of wealth for which there has been no historical parallel. This scandalous state of affairs has been continuing for several decades on an ever expanding scale, and the power conferred as a consequence threatens to destroy governments, democracy and the international banking system itself. Drug money also weakens and corrodes competition by favouring some economic agents at the expense of others'.

'Two trillion+ dollars a year (a conservative figure, as noted) over the past two decades, excluding interest, would imply that more than $40 trillion will have been added to the wealth of the global criminal classes, including the managers and representatives of Lenin's continuing world socialist revolution. Most of this money has been invested in property, bonds and stocks, and each year a further trillion or more dollars is added to the pool. Given that these data are believed by some experts to understate the position, the probable value of accrued drug money lodged in the international financial system now exceeds this $40 trillion estimate by a considerable margin. The associated corruption among financial institutions, investment advisory services (including stock brokerage houses and mutual funds), prestigious law firms, and among the political classes, has by now long since reached epidemic proportions. And this transformation has been accompanied by minimal publicity, with the exception of extensively publicised, but intermittent, 'drug busts'...'.

'It is critical for the survival of Western civilisation, and in order to slow down its rapid descent into pervasive, corrosive globalised criminality and corruption, which is the grim outlook for the 21st century, that Western countries begin, even at this late hour, to understand the true nature of the illegal drug crisis - which means correctly analysing its sources, especially its political origins, its enabling mechanisms, and its related criminal dimensions. Unless the nature and provenance of the challenge is finally understood, the appropriate strategy and tactics to address it will never be formulated. The drugs scourge continues to escalate because the measures so far developed to counter it do not take account of the geopolitical dimension - that is to say, of the malevolent, revolutionary intent which drives it'.

'As a consequence, the measures taken, in the United States, Britain and elsewhere, to address the scourge, have remained essentially irrelevant and ineffective.... The plague continues to spread because the West is the victim of a deliberate, sustained and relentless offensive planned and directed by enemy intelligence which Western policymakers appear not to begin, or care, to understand. Some Western leaders even share the ideological objectives of the perpetrators of the drugs offensive. To make matters much worse, the values of many policymakers have been fatally eroded; and if one has no real values, one is not emboldened to defend anything at all, let alone with conviction and vigour. Policymakers too often stand for nothing and fall for everything - for every false assessment, for every piece of fashionable disinformation and for every diversionary tactic which is intended to add to the confusion and which clouds the truth: namely, that the West has been targeted as an act of war, and is the victim of a sustained offensive'.

'Obviously, the longer this perversity and blindness continue, the more powerful and insuperable will the forces which help to perpetuate this blanket offensive, become. Soon, they will wield almost total power in some Western countries. The European Union's collectivist structures, with their pork-barrel traditions and inclinations, are conspicuously vulnerable to drug-related corruption...'.

About the AuthorDr ph s is a national security analyst and author with expertise in defence policy, threat assessment, deception, intelligence and political warfare, nuclear strategy, terrorism, advanced chemical and biological warfare agents and applications, and international narcotics trafficking. Since the mid-1980s, his primary focus has been research into various dimensions of cultural warfare and notably into the illegal drugs plague, with emphasis on its origins, support structures, marketing - and the question: 'What can be done?' Dr s received his PhD in electrical engineering from Cornell University in 1962 and has taught at Cornell, the Navy Postgraduate School at Monterey, and s Hopkins School of Advanced International Relations in Washington, D.C.. He has worked in and for the national laboratories (Sandia Corporation], the US Government, where he was Deputy and Acting Director, Tactical Technology Office, Advanced Research Projects Agency - and with various defence contractors, such as the Institute for Defense Analyses and System Planning Corporation. He is a former member of the Weapons Systems Evaluation Group, US Army Science Board, and a former consultant to the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency and Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He currently directs The Redwood Institute, which was formed to address the internal problems America faces - such as illegal drugs, crime and impoverished education - and to identify root causes, evaluate national policy and devise alternative policy options.

The Author is a pioneering analyst and is perhaps best known for his ground-breaking studies of nuclear weapons policy, the impact of precision-guided munitions, the nature of the Soviet nuclear threat, the risks arising from chemical and biological warfare agents, and intelligence aspects of international narcotics trafficking. His unclassified books include The Theater Nuclear Offensive [1976, reprinted ten times]; Soviet Strategy for War in Europe [Pergamon Press, 1980, also translated into and published in German]; Soviet Strategy for Nuclear War [Hoover Institute Press, 1979: numerous printings, translated into and published in Japanese]; CBW: The Poor man's Atomic Bomb [institute for Foreign Policy Analysis, 1984]; Why the Soviet Union Violates Arms Control Treaties [Pergamon-Brassey's, 1988]; Conventional War and Escalation [The National Strategy Information Center, 1981]; The Superpowers and Strategic War Termination [co-editor, Pergamon-Brassey's, 1989]; and the present work, originally entitled: Red Cocaine: The Drugging of America [1990]. This new edition has been prepared with a view to meeting continuing demand for the work, in both the United States and elsewhere, following the strategic adjustment completed in 1991 when the Communist strategists switched to pursuing their manic World Revolutionary objectives through covert Communism and a 'new form' of reversible 'state-controlled capitalism' - working, as Lenin taught his 'illuminated' followers, 'by other means'.

Bush invaded Iraq on false premises and now Al Qaida are stronger than ever and able to strike with almost total impunity while an innocent bystander has his head blown off, summary execution style off by their own police for wearing jackets a little too thick for their liking. Half our media outlets don't even report this latest terror from within and are complicit by silence.

Iraq is a mess and fast being lost while Afghanistan is back to Soviet occupation days with the capital being controlled while the counrtyside is not.

We even have dob in services not unlike the East German Stasi and extra powers allocated for surveillance of citizens. Phone taps now are considered the norm. people say 'why worry if youve got nothing to hide' . Well why not go the whole hog and implant us with ID chips and introduce curfew. I shouldnt laugh because it may well happen.

During WWII we were bombed with tens of thousands of casualties and yet there was no widespread introduction of a police state from within. Indeed freedom was so precious it did not have a price. There was no ID card then

The chineses are laughing loud because there economy is driving them to a commanding position while we chsae shadows. The Chinese will be the ultimate winners.

I want people to honestly think about what I have said. If you feel fearful in seeing this in print then that will be proof living for you that our freedom and way of life if fast dissolving or already gone.

There is nothing I can do about it but at least I have exercised the lie that is passed for so called freedom by saying the obvious

Evan

July 25, 2005

Marilia,

I couldn't disagree more. Not only will we win but these actions will sow the seed of democracy and people rule in oil wealthy arab despot counries.

I'm Australian and spend alot of time in the UK and I can tell you we are not anti USA. Sure alot of people are liberal. That's it. We would vouch for our American brothers anytime and anyplace. See Marilia, hard decisions aren't nessesarily popular ones.

As for the Chinese, don't worry, their economical miracle is because of the open trade access to USA markets. eg WalMart.

If the American consumers stopped buying Chinese products, they would be in trouble.

Anyhow, my opinion.

Shaun.

Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Even, hi

I agree with you in some aspects: nti americanisms is growing, I believe most of Australia is anti american and anti Bush, my country is kind of that too-I am not anymore-and who is winning? Comunist China, a place where you cannot have freedom to search for some topics in , Google, etc, as they are not aloowed by government and citizens can be killed by government, whenever they disagree.

I will post below some of the thing is behind all the misery we see in the world now. Read it all, with speciall notice to the political thing behind it. There is a MILLIONAIRE thing behind the struggle to destroy some democracies.

(In my country there is NO WAY we will get rid of criminality related to drug power. They finace some leftists parties, they all belong to a thing called Foro de Sao o, where Fidel Castro, as well as many presidentes, from South America or comunist countries, as well as FARC-terrorism from Colombia but who is everywhere and the chilen terrorist groups called MIR, they all belong to this RICH association who joined togehter after Berlim wall was down, with the objective of making comunism alive again. All you will eventually read in the press on the violence in my country is due to the FARCS, but nothing will ever be done-unless Bush invades here, haha-as this groups gave money to help elect actual president, well, they were all in the same group created in 1990. They meet every year, and the criminal folks are members with same objective as the ones who are mere 'politics' such as Fidel Castro, etc-raise comunist in the world, finance campaigns

pro 'peace' and agaisnt some democracies, or Bush, or Tony Blair, or force people in Spain to relate the bomb with the victory of a non comunist party, etc.)

)

You are sooo right when you put:

The chineses are laughing loud because there economy is driving them to a commanding position while we chsae shadows. The Chinese will be the ultimate winners.

'Excerpted from Red Cocaine: The Drugging of America and the West by ph D. s, Story, L. Story, Ray S. Cline. Copyright © 1999. Reprinted by permission. All rights reserved'In 1996, annual revenues derived from global criminalist activities were estimated by the World Bank's experts at $1.2 trillion, of which $500 billion were thought to represent profits. These were and remain highly conservative estimates. The narcotics trade alone is in the $500 billion or more range. A more realistic estimate today would probably be of the order of $2 trillion per year - with $1 trillion, more or less, by way of straight profit; and some experts would raise these estimates further, towards $3.0 trillion annually in turnover. That is to say, governments, banks and the global criminalists are arranging the transfer of at least $1.0 trillion every year of national and private wealth into the bank accounts of the global criminal

fraternity - a massive transfer of wealth for which there has been no historical parallel. This scandalous state of affairs has been continuing for several decades on an ever expanding scale, and the power conferred as a consequence threatens to destroy governments, democracy and the international banking system itself. Drug money also weakens and corrodes competition by favouring some economic agents at the expense of others'.

'Two trillion+ dollars a year (a conservative figure, as noted) over the past two decades, excluding interest, would imply that more than $40 trillion will have been added to the wealth of the global criminal classes, including the managers and representatives of Lenin's continuing world socialist revolution. Most of this money has been invested in property, bonds and stocks, and each year a further trillion or more dollars is added to the pool. Given that these data are believed by some experts to understate the position, the probable value of accrued drug money lodged in the international financial system now exceeds this $40 trillion estimate by a considerable margin. The associated corruption among financial institutions, investment advisory services (including stock brokerage houses and mutual funds), prestigious law firms, and among the political classes, has by now long since reached epidemic proportions. And this transformation has been

accompanied by minimal publicity, with the exception of extensively publicised, but intermittent, 'drug busts'...'.

'It is critical for the survival of Western civilisation, and in order to slow down its rapid descent into pervasive, corrosive globalised criminality and corruption, which is the grim outlook for the 21st century, that Western countries begin, even at this late hour, to understand the true nature of the illegal drug crisis - which means correctly analysing its sources, especially its political origins, its enabling mechanisms, and its related criminal dimensions. Unless the nature and provenance of the challenge is finally understood, the appropriate strategy and tactics to address it will never be formulated. The drugs scourge continues to escalate because the measures so far developed to counter it do not take account of the geopolitical dimension - that is to say, of the malevolent, revolutionary intent which drives it'.

'As a consequence, the measures taken, in the United States, Britain and elsewhere, to address the scourge, have remained essentially irrelevant and ineffective.... The plague continues to spread because the West is the victim of a deliberate, sustained and relentless offensive planned and directed by enemy intelligence which Western policymakers appear not to begin, or care, to understand. Some Western leaders even share the ideological objectives of the perpetrators of the drugs offensive. To make matters much worse, the values of many policymakers have been fatally eroded; and if one has no real values, one is not emboldened to defend anything at all, let alone with conviction and vigour. Policymakers too often stand for nothing and fall for everything - for every false assessment, for every piece of fashionable disinformation and for every diversionary tactic which is intended to add to the confusion and which clouds the truth: namely, that the West

has been targeted as an act of war, and is the victim of a sustained offensive'.

'Obviously, the longer this perversity and blindness continue, the more powerful and insuperable will the forces which help to perpetuate this blanket offensive, become. Soon, they will wield almost total power in some Western countries. The European Union's collectivist structures, with their pork-barrel traditions and inclinations, are conspicuously vulnerable to drug-related corruption...'.

About the AuthorDr ph s is a national security analyst and author with expertise in defence policy, threat assessment, deception, intelligence and political warfare, nuclear strategy, terrorism, advanced chemical and biological warfare agents and applications, and international narcotics trafficking. Since the mid-1980s, his primary focus has been research into various dimensions of cultural warfare and notably into the illegal drugs plague, with emphasis on its origins, support structures, marketing - and the question: 'What can be done?' Dr s received his PhD in electrical engineering from Cornell University in 1962 and has taught at Cornell, the Navy Postgraduate School at Monterey, and s Hopkins School of Advanced International Relations in Washington, D.C.. He has worked in and for the national laboratories (Sandia Corporation], the US Government, where he was Deputy and Acting Director, Tactical Technology Office, Advanced

Research Projects Agency - and with various defence contractors, such as the Institute for Defense Analyses and System Planning Corporation. He is a former member of the Weapons Systems Evaluation Group, US Army Science Board, and a former consultant to the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency and Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He currently directs The Redwood Institute, which was formed to address the internal problems America faces - such as illegal drugs, crime and impoverished education - and to identify root causes, evaluate national policy and devise alternative policy options.

The Author is a pioneering analyst and is perhaps best known for his ground-breaking studies of nuclear weapons policy, the impact of precision-guided munitions, the nature of the Soviet nuclear threat, the risks arising from chemical and biological warfare agents, and intelligence aspects of international narcotics trafficking. His unclassified books include The Theater Nuclear Offensive [1976, reprinted ten times]; Soviet Strategy for War in Europe [Pergamon Press, 1980, also translated into and published in German]; Soviet Strategy for Nuclear War [Hoover Institute Press, 1979: numerous printings, translated into and published in Japanese]; CBW: The Poor man's Atomic Bomb [institute for Foreign Policy Analysis, 1984]; Why the Soviet Union Violates Arms Control Treaties [Pergamon-Brassey's, 1988]; Conventional War and Escalation [The National Strategy Information Center, 1981]; The Superpowers and Strategic War Termination [co-editor,

Pergamon-Brassey's, 1989]; and the present work, originally entitled: Red Cocaine: The Drugging of America [1990]. This new edition has been prepared with a view to meeting continuing demand for the work, in both the United States and elsewhere, following the strategic adjustment completed in 1991 when the Communist strategists switched to pursuing their manic World Revolutionary objectives through covert Communism and a 'new form' of reversible 'state-controlled capitalism' - working, as Lenin taught his 'illuminated' followers, 'by other means'.

Bush invaded Iraq on false premises and now Al Qaida are stronger than ever and able to strike with almost total impunity while an innocent bystander has his head blown off, summary execution style off by their own police for wearing jackets a little too thick for their liking. Half our media outlets don't even report this latest terror from within and are complicit by silence.

Iraq is a mess and fast being lost while Afghanistan is back to Soviet occupation days with the capital being controlled while the counrtyside is not.

We even have dob in services not unlike the East German Stasi and extra powers allocated for surveillance of citizens. Phone taps now are considered the norm. people say 'why worry if youve got nothing to hide' . Well why not go the whole hog and implant us with ID chips and introduce curfew. I shouldnt laugh because it may well happen.

During WWII we were bombed with tens of thousands of casualties and yet there was no widespread introduction of a police state from within. Indeed freedom was so precious it did not have a price. There was no ID card then

The chineses are laughing loud because there economy is driving them to a commanding position while we chsae shadows. The Chinese will be the ultimate winners.

I want people to honestly think about what I have said. If you feel fearful in seeing this in print then that will be proof living for you that our freedom and way of life if fast dissolving or already gone.

There is nothing I can do about it but at least I have exercised the lie that is passed for so called freedom by saying the obvious

Evan

Start your day with - make it your home page

July 25, 2005

Marilia,

That was a very interesting post. I knew organized crime was a problem but $2 trillion per year in 1996?! I shudder to think what that figure is today. The author was spot on about politicians too: they are clueless and half of them are probably on the take. All that dirty money floating around out there is all themore reason to put restrictions on lobbyists, campaign donations and term limits on the pols themselves.

July 25, 2005

Marilia,

I couldn't disagree more.

Disagree more in which point?

Not only will we win but these actions will sow the seed of democracy and people rule in oil wealthy arab despot counries.

I'm Australian and spend alot of time in the UK and I can tell you we are not anti USA. Sure alot of people are liberal. That's it. We would vouch for our American brothers anytime and anyplace.

When I comment about being anti americna is not being anti americna folks, as many of hollywood stars are also anti american and anti Bush and of course they do love their people. What I mean is the propaganda, or the general press point of view that are believed to be the ultimate truth in a place one lives. Like, most people our newspapers copy here from the States, for instance, come from the New York Times, the only one I used to read till I realized that in the States, different than in my country, it is not the big papers that lead, but the hundreds of local ones. Well, my guess of Australia being same as here came because not only in internet places, but also in lectures, people from Australia tend to view politics from US-of course not only astralians-being one full of mistakes, etc.

See Marilia, hard decisions aren't nessesarily popular ones.

As for the Chinese, don't worry, their economical miracle is because of the open trade access to USA markets. eg WalMart.

Not just to that in spite of this being a big part of the picture. In other wods, I do not disagre with you, but you cannot ignore the other stuff.

Well, about the blindness of the americans on chinese products Ted C. Fishman, in his book China, Inc, says that if Wall Mart was a country it would be the 5th biggest exporter of China, above Germany and England.

If the American consumers stopped buying Chinese products, they would be in trouble.

Not just Walmart: I have not being to the States for a few years, but it is known that in every popular supermarket of the states there are dozens of cheap devices, american devices, that are made in China. This means 2.900.000 lost job opportunities in the US plus the atrophy of american industrial cities such as Detroit, Cleveland, town, Bethlehem and Pittsburgh. The people who buy these cheap products in US are the ones who help China be in 2012 the biggest indutrial potency, and in 2050 the biggest world economy. US faces money only...China faces getting their military-as it is the one who directly profits with the selling of any product chinese product sold abroad- stronger and stronger and, as published thousand times, destroy USA. Add to this the dirty money that comes from criminal business and groups, like drugs, etc....who is winning is not terrorism, as it is part of iceberg-but China intents and China potency.

Anyhow, my opinion.

Shaun.

Love opinions.

Marilia

July 25, 2005

In a message dated 7/25/2005 11:06:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, marilia.trp@... writes:

If the American consumers stopped buying Chinese products, they would be in trouble.

Not just Walmart: I have not being to the States for a few years, but it is known that in every popular supermarket of the states there are dozens of cheap devices, american devices, that are made in China. This means 2.900.000 lost job opportunities in the US plus the atrophy of american industrial cities such as Detroit, Cleveland, town, Bethlehem and Pittsburgh. The people who buy these cheap products in US are the ones who help China be in 2012 the biggest indutrial potency, and in 2050 the biggest world economy. US faces money only...China faces getting their military-as it is the one who directly profits with the selling of any product chinese product sold abroad- stronger and stronger and, as published thousand times, destroy USA. Add to this the dirty money that comes from criminal business and groups, like drugs, etc....who is winning is not terrorism, as it is part of iceberg-but China intents and China potency.

Sadly it isn't just manufacturing that is going overseas. These days white color jobs are disappearing as well. At first it was just call center jobs and things like that, but now even engineering jobs are leaving. I have read estimates that over the next few years the US could lose as many white collar jobs as it has manufacturing jobs, perhaps more.

This is the dark side of globalism. The rest of the world is catching up to the West by stealing our jobs. The result will be that their standard of living will rise greatly and ours will fall. There may come parity one day, but that would not be for decades at the earliest, and that would probably be toward the lower end. Not a good state of affairs.

A lot of this has to do with the fact that most companies are multinational these days. Most American companies do most of their business overseas, same for Europe. Therefore, it is nothing for their bosses to send jobs and such overseas where it is cheaper. They no longer have any loyalty to a nation but only to themselves and their profits.

The poor state os US education is hurting us as well, but I've talked about that enough.

July 25, 2005

Folks,

This topic is getting a bit heated on a personal level. Might I suggest we take a step back and a deep breath? We are treading close to the line of civil debate about other people's ideas and personal attacks.

July 25, 2005

In a message dated 7/25/2005 2:51:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, scwmachinations@... writes:

,

I wonder if you recall the US spyplane forced down over a Chinese island?

The Chinese were playing hardball for over a week. There was a rally for Walmart customers to threaten to boycott Chinese products if it wasn't released. Low and behold it was released the next day. See you can't win with alot of extreme liberals.

If you export jobs and indeed wealth they see it exploitation of the poor. If you claim globalization is exploitation. I believe the United Nations should be replaced with a coalition of western values and rule of law. If you want to do biz, or need charity and nation building, you need to be a signoritory of a charter. Those that hold the same cultural values will florish.

Shaun.

Yes, I remember this. It was a disgusting episode. I made me red in the face angry to see that pilot and crew decorated on their return to the US. They should have ditched the planein the ocean, not a problem since there was a US destroyer in the area. Instead they gave the Chinese free copies of our best spy goodies. They would have at least blown the plane up after they landed. They weren't heros, not cowards either, but they screwed up big time and should not have been given medals for it.

I have to agree on the UN. The UN is dominated by petty corrupt dictatorships who have been milking the West for decades. It is such a farce to have nations like Sudan, Lybia and Syria sitting on the Human Rights Commission. I have long said that the Developed world (US, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Europe as its core) should go its own way. Other nations could apply for membership and be rated against clearly stated criteria. Other nations could apply for developmental assistance this would be given out based on odds of success and past performance in that country. Any nation that failed to make the cut would be told why and it would be up to them to clean up their act before reapply after a 5 year or so wait.

July 25, 2005

Evan,

There was a police state back then too.

The Japanese that lived in the United States were rounded up and put

in detention camps. Including the parents and grandparents of my

Japanese neighbor across the street.

The Japanese in the US lived in a police state even though the rest

of the citizenry didn't.

Actually...

So did blacks for that matter since they were suppressed by

segregation.

My opinion is that the only reason Germans were not rounded up was

because they were white, but even Germans lived in fear. Everyone in

my grandmother's family, who were God fearing Catholic Germans,

changed their names from Schmitt to to avoid getting sneered

at and harrassed when forced to give their names in public during

WWII.

Nowdays things are no different. We have a people that we cannot

understand. Their language, ethics, morals, and religion are

incomprehensible to us, and they are so integrated into our society,

and are recruiting people with our own backgrounds to help their

cause that it's hard to tell who is who and who believes what

anymore.

The one difference is that in this day and age, you would have civil

rights activists bouncing off the walls if we were to round up all

Muslims and put them in camps, and rightly so, because all Muslims

are not the problem. Only some radical ones are.

The key to resolving this situation is recognizing the fact that we

were never safe in the first place. Look at history and you will see

that radical Islamic sects were ALWAYS there, but the technology,

the managerial organization, and the funds to carry out attacks

wasn't.

Technology has made instant communication possible whereas merely 40

years ago there were only phones and snail mail, and those phones

could be tapped.

Now there is internet, cell phones, satellite phones, etc., SOME of

which cannot be tapped.

As little as 40 years ago even television wasn't available in most

Arab countries so they could not instantaneously see what was

happening in the world, but they did hear it over radio and from

their clergy, and also from those governments that were opposed to

western countries.

Only in recent history have people outside of government stepped to

the forefront as leaders. Bin Laden has become a sort of United

Nations President for radical Muslims now. Before you didn't have

that. AND, he has been able to gather up the funding for these

attacks by setting up money making schemes around the world, whereas

before terrorism was mostly state sponsored.

What brought all this on?

Was it Bush?

Nonsense.

The Arabs hated European colonization of their countries at the time

of WWI and are only pointing the finger at America now because they

THINK that we are trying to do what the Europeans did.

The fact is that nothing would please Americans more to be shut of

these people. We do not enjoy sending out troops to be killed over

there. But in order to avoid the stigma that Americans are a bunch

of selfish and self-involved people, we are compelled to intervene

in the affairs of these countries and sort them out to keep them

from being more serious dangers in the future.

If people are going to hate Bush, then they sould hate him for a

legitimate reason. What people hate him now for is that only he has

the guts to do what no one else is willing to do, which is to bloody

the noses of tinpot dictatorships who sabre rattle and who harbor

terrorists that cause death and destuction throughout the world.

Hussein threatened every adjacent country to his thereby creating

instability in the entire middle east and a volitility in the

world's oil prices for over 25 years. America went in there and

took over the country in a matter of weeks.

Afghanistan has been at war since time out of mind and only America

actually won a war against the militants their. Recall that the

Soviets were in there for a decade and still lost.

People may not like our methods, but we have no choice given that

noone else will step up to the plate and do what we do.

I think the rest of the world is just plain guilty that America

tells other countries what they don't want to hear:

1) You don't want para-military people trying to overthrow your

countries? Weed out the drug trade that sponsors them.

2) You don't want AIDS? Stop having sex.

3) You want famine relief? Stop having kids.

4) You don't want us to overthrow your country and replace your

Nationalistic dictorship with a democracy? Then stop threatening

other countries and get rid of the terrorists you sponsor.

But you see, saying those things makes people feel bad about

themselves because:

1) A LOT of people use illegal drugs and produce/buy their own.

2) People enjoy promiscuity.

3) People (including the governments of famine stricken countries)

don't REALLY care about the starving people.

4) And Nationalistic dictaroship NEED the threat of violence and

intimidation to make their governments work, otherwise they would be

overthrown.

What Bush is telling us is only the cold hard facts:

1) The drug trade is sponsoring the overthrow of legitimate

countries while making people addicts.

2) Promiscuity perpetuates AIDA which is a deadly disease.

3) The world is overpopulated.

4) Tinpot dictators are reckless and bad for the world.

All these new measures that restrict our freedoms are the direct

result of us not doing what was right in the first place. In other

words, they are the direct result of not doing what Bush is telling

us to do now.

We've earned it as far as I'm concerned, and if we want to see our

civil liberties restored, then we ought to be:

1) Giving up drugs and wiping out the drug trade.

2) Stop being promiscuous.

3) Stop having so many kids.

4) And overthrowing the leadership of any country that provides and

overwhelming threat to a region or to the world as a whole.

Tom

During WWII we were bombed with tens of thousands of casualties and

yet there was no widespread introduction of a police state from

within. Indeed freedom was so precious it did not have a price.

There was no ID card then

July 25, 2005

I'm sorry Marilia, you are just plain incorrect and coming from someone who neither has live in Australia, USA or the UK, I think you are a tad confused.

For one, both the Australian people and the Brits have just recently had elections. as you know a great ally to the USA, was revoted in by an easy margin and Blair was re elected. So when you start talking about majorities, they are clearly not what you say.

Of coarse Australia is a very liberal country and have open freedom of speech, so of coarse you are going to get vocal opinions.

Marilia, as you say "well known", it is a well known fact that the New York Times is a liberal newspaper and very critical of President Bush. So I would assume that represents the majority of American opinion.

Just out of interest Marilia, have you ever lived in these countries or even been good friends with any?

It is also "well known", just in merchandise alone, there is a $180 billion dollars trade difference between the USA and China. But no problem, if we all of a sudden didnt have Chinese products, we would just make our own like we always have.

Cheers.

Shaun.Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote: