Re: We are losing the war on terror!

July 26, 2005

,

I think the biggest danger from China lies in their industrial capacity and their long term planning ability. The most sobering thing about their industry is how in the space of five years they have closed the gap in manufacturing efficiency notwithstanding the abundant cheap labour and automated their production capacity by the extensive use of CNC's and improved design. The quality gap has been closed with the US and is closing with Japan & Germany in many areas such as electronics and plastic injection moulding and even in heavy industry and steel manufacture.

I build machinery in stainless steel and the buy in price is for 316 runs at approx 4-5.00 a lkilo in several tonne quantities at present. Their government buys their material from the mills in Europe and Asia etc by government purchase for a stockpile for their manufacturers to buy at a fraction of the cost we short sighted and mutually paranoid westeners buy it. Their collective ability and their market will in the end without intervention be the doom of our societies as pre-eminent nations in the world. i could give examples to fill a book of how they are doing it but the short and sobering realitity is that as we fill the niches in their market they are just as quickly attaining self sufficiency to do so.

In terms of planning ability i give this as an example. During the Shweinfurt raids against the bearing factories in the Ruhr in Germany during WWII The eight airforce lost over ninety, four engined heavy bombers in one raid alone and cost Germany two months lost bearing production capacity until they relocated their plant underground. The result was seen as well worth the losses. Australias only bearing manufacturer closed several years ago and relocated to China. Stupid western short sightedness versus Chinese planning. Strategic capacity destroyed not by bombs but by greed, profits and free trade agreements.

The chinese make concessions to keep the pace up while we are all distracted by a few arab suicide bombers. In the end it wont be just western technology versus Chinese numbers but superior asian technology AND numbers. And we will have done it for them by our greedy reliance on cheap goods and our export of technology. A one way street because the Chinese learn from everything we do and expand and encourage self reliance in that field. Bush & Co only have to worry about their terms in office and the following lifetime pensions and income but the Chinese leaders are ready to adopt policies that many of them won't expect to see in their lifetimes. Their final trump card is their homogenous culture that draws on the Chinese diaspora around the world for support while our culture fragments and implodes from policies of greed and trying to integrate the un-intergrateable.

We are doomed from a combination of surging Eastern economies to a much reduced share of world wealth

Evan

VISIGOTH@... wrote:

In a message dated 7/25/2005 4:27:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, marilia.trp@... writes:

Only in this month I heard of two people close to me, one a boyfriend of a niece, and another one forgot who he is, they went to China for that.

I think some of it has to do with our president had created some policies with China, if this word is right...but it is not only that.

Yes, China has been making inroads into the Western Hemisphere. They already pretty much control the Panama Canal and now they are trying to forge economic ties over here as well. The Chinese are trying to undercut American influence in the area and replace us in the local markets. Unfortunately Bush is just looking on and not doing anything about it. So much for the Monroe Doctrine and I believe it will lead to trouble for us and the whole hemisphere in the future.

__________________________________________________

July 26, 2005

Evan and , although I agree with alot of what you both say, I do also however see another scenerio.

I believe their will be tech of old and new tech existing in the world at the same time.

For example, alot of people are concerned about the steel mills closing down, but steel isnt as popular as a manufacturing material as some of the new league of composite materials.

It's like passing old tech onto third world countries for them to have the tools to progress. Another good example was when Australia went from analog mobile phones to digital. All those analogs were sold to SE Asia as were the transmission towers.

My point being is that alot of industry going abroad are industries maybe our society can do without. Steel mills generate alot of pollution. If our people were retrained for a new league of jobs we would be better off.

I'm sure China would hurt more from a trade disput than the USA ever would.

Shaun.Evan Sinclair <cennis007@...> wrote:

,

I think the biggest danger from China lies in their industrial capacity and their long term planning ability. The most sobering thing about their industry is how in the space of five years they have closed the gap in manufacturing efficiency notwithstanding the abundant cheap labour and automated their production capacity by the extensive use of CNC's and improved design. The quality gap has been closed with the US and is closing with Japan & Germany in many areas such as electronics and plastic injection moulding and even in heavy industry and steel manufacture.

I build machinery in stainless steel and the buy in price is for 316 runs at approx 4-5.00 a lkilo in several tonne quantities at present. Their government buys their material from the mills in Europe and Asia etc by government purchase for a stockpile for their manufacturers to buy at a fraction of the cost we short sighted and mutually paranoid westeners buy it. Their collective ability and their market will in the end without intervention be the doom of our societies as pre-eminent nations in the world. i could give examples to fill a book of how they are doing it but the short and sobering realitity is that as we fill the niches in their market they are just as quickly attaining self sufficiency to do so.

In terms of planning ability i give this as an example. During the Shweinfurt raids against the bearing factories in the Ruhr in Germany during WWII The eight airforce lost over ninety, four engined heavy bombers in one raid alone and cost Germany two months lost bearing production capacity until they relocated their plant underground. The result was seen as well worth the losses. Australias only bearing manufacturer closed several years ago and relocated to China. Stupid western short sightedness versus Chinese planning. Strategic capacity destroyed not by bombs but by greed, profits and free trade agreements.

The chinese make concessions to keep the pace up while we are all distracted by a few arab suicide bombers. In the end it wont be just western technology versus Chinese numbers but superior asian technology AND numbers. And we will have done it for them by our greedy reliance on cheap goods and our export of technology. A one way street because the Chinese learn from everything we do and expand and encourage self reliance in that field. Bush & Co only have to worry about their terms in office and the following lifetime pensions and income but the Chinese leaders are ready to adopt policies that many of them won't expect to see in their lifetimes. Their final trump card is their homogenous culture that draws on the Chinese diaspora around the world for support while our culture fragments and implodes from policies of greed and trying to integrate the un-intergrateable.

We are doomed from a combination of surging Eastern economies to a much reduced share of world wealth

Evan

VISIGOTH@... wrote:

In a message dated 7/25/2005 4:27:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, marilia.trp@... writes:

Only in this month I heard of two people close to me, one a boyfriend of a niece, and another one forgot who he is, they went to China for that.

I think some of it has to do with our president had created some policies with China, if this word is right...but it is not only that.

Yes, China has been making inroads into the Western Hemisphere. They already pretty much control the Panama Canal and now they are trying to forge economic ties over here as well. The Chinese are trying to undercut American influence in the area and replace us in the local markets. Unfortunately Bush is just looking on and not doing anything about it. So much for the Monroe Doctrine and I believe it will lead to trouble for us and the whole hemisphere in the future.

Start your day with - make it your home page

July 26, 2005

Well, folks, after Tom suggested we should not go on in this converstion I decided not even read the posts related to this subject, after I was called silly and delusional, which I find it is a bad argument.

(argument here, as it has a few meanings, doesn´t mean fight or debate. When I say bad argument I mean more a poor way to defend one´s views)

But well, decided for some reason read the post people found offensive...maybe I will not find this one offensive as I found the other one using the words silly and delusional.

(by the way, it is curious what words people in certain places use to offend people. Once a was at a psychologist house and she was annoyed with her brother and the words she chose to offend him was 'squizofrenic' and stuff like that). In all the lists I participated is the first time someone called me silly and delusional was in this list. Interesting!

OK Marilia if you want to play the semantics game,

So you lived in the States for one year

Also I didnt say been to London, I said lived in London. How long where your stays in the UK

Now I realise Marilia you might see yourself as super smart, remember, there is always someone smarter

How dare I , having lived in Australia for over 28 years and having lived in the USA for 7 and the UK for 4, assume I may know about these countries

Yet lia is right, show knows more

Must be hard to know everything huh Marilia

I did not say I knew more, I said I did not believe one necessarily had to live in a place in order to know certain things about that place. If I believed that I would have to believe no one could ever speak anything, nowadays, on ancient Greece, or talk about how things are in Iraq, unless been there. No one could know of atom unless that person had actually seen it, touched it, or know anything about whatever in the space if that person had never been there.

I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?

While I was in the States I was invited once for a literature class at Madison university when some students would expose somehting they studied of an author from my country and students were all americans...and I was amazed on how many details they knew about this authour and the period he lived...most who live here do not know.

After one year we lived abroad in a school everyone was local my aspie kid got first in the class in their language, which he had never studied before and that language his class mates have spoken all their lives-and in their history.

So, when you asked me how many years I lived in these places as this could be credentials for what one would post, if that in itself could give someone 'authority' in the subject...in my reply I said not that I was smarter than anyone else, but that this in itself is poor reasoning

I suggest Marilia that federal elections are a good example of what the people are thinking

Well, am not sure to what part of my post this is related....

Nowadyas there is all evidence that our president has lots to do with corruption, but some classes do not believe so and will vote for him next year. We all live here...each believes to know the truth.

Just like it was in Iraq

Shaun

Where do you live Marilia?

I have already posted this, but I guess you missed it.

http://www.riodejaneirovirtual.com/

July 26, 2005

Hello, Tom,

Well, this might be off topic but as you studied south american press for a while, I would like to share with you a view, from a former teacher of mine, who has a very clear view of our nowadays press, and in fact is the only one who does so. (for being so he was fired two weeks ago from the newspaper he was working, specially when clear signs of corrpution in actual political party came to light-the one he has always denounced- and is now living in Virginia, writing another of his books)

Our Enemy, the USA(a.k.a. “Anti-Americanism inBrazil and Latin America”)

Olavo de CarvalhoBrazzil, December 1st, 2002(also Accuracy in Media, December 22nd, 2004)

Brazil is now ready to accept a war against the US as the most natural thing in the world. Officers and soldiers are already studying the works of Ho Chi Minh and General Giap, to learn the Vietcong war techniques for future combats against the North American invaders.

The entire mainstream Brazilian media, without exception, is anti-American, anti-Bush, and anti-Israel, including those publications which due to their past keep a conservative façade, even though they are by no means conservative today. Everybody in Brazilian media commenting on September 11 was unanimous in attributing to the US several different degrees of the responsibility for the evil that was done to them.

There is no politician left in Brazil who is openly pro-American or pro-Israel, even among the ones who are defenders of a free market economy. There are, at best, those who defend good relations with the US exclusively in the economic arena, taking at the same time an anti-American stance in all other relevant international issues.

There are no more conservative politicians or parties in action in Brazil today. The last ones were ostracized in the last couple of years, either through suspicions of corruption that were never entirely proven, or by the defeat on the elections after a rain of accusations in the media. The bulk of the opposition to the Workers’ Party (PT), the greatest left-wing party in Brazil, is made exclusively by internal dissensions of the Left.

Brazilian public opinion is massively persuaded that the US is in a full-fledged imperialistic campaign to subjugate Brazil economically, destroy it culturally, and, finally, to occupy with troops at least part of its territory. In the media, no writer except me dares to openly defy this belief.

No conservative American author has his books published in Brazil, at least by the commercial publishing houses, nor are they studied in the departments of Philosophy, Law, or Political Sciences of any Brazilian university. A recent publication, the Critical Dictionary of Right-Wing Thought, which became reference material for all the students in the area due to the fact that it was written by 144 university teachers among the most representative of Brazilian academic elite, contained several mentions of Duke and none of Irving Kristol, Kirk, Sowell, and other authors recognized in the US as spokesmen for conservatives, so that the general idea left in the mind of the reader is that the North American conservative thought consists, essentially, of Nazism.

In the media, in academic discussions and in public debates, all the initiatives viewed as bad for Brazil, coming from international organizations or great banks, are immediately attributed to W. Bush. The figure of the North American president has been so demonized that he was drawn literally with the face of the Devil, with horns and forked tail, on the cover of one of the main weekly Brazilian magazines—a gross graphic expedient which, not even a decade ago, would be dared only by communist publications.

The American ambassador in Brazil, Donna Hrinak, made open propaganda of the leftist candidate (and current president) Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, praising him as the “incarnation of the American dream,” and after that enforced further the anti-American feeling on the population, declaring in an interview that “the US does not respect Brazil”.

In the Armed Forces, the belief is practically unanimous that, with the end of the USSR, the East-West conflict axle was substituted by the North-South axle, or “rich nations against poor nations,” and, therefore, the real enemy of Brazil in an armed conflict is the US. This idea is subscribed to even by the majority of the conservative officers, some with great prestige in the Armed Forces. The military in general believe that the North American proposition of setting up an air force base in Alcântara, Pará, is a Machiavellian plan of the government in Washington against Brazilian national sovereignty, and almost all officers subscribe to the leftist propaganda that the Colombia Plan is a vile premeditated plot to facilitate the penetration of American troops in Brazilian territory with imperialistic purposes.

In the frontier bases, many officers and soldiers are already dedicated to the study of the works of Ho Chi Minh and General Giap, aiming to assimilate the Vietcong war techniques for future combat against the North American invaders. The School for Higher War Studies (ESG, Escola Superior de Guerra), the main teaching center for the formation of the military, is literally hypnotized by the preaching of anti-American agitators like the journalist Márcio Moreira Alves and the historian Cambeses Júnior.

For the simple reason that it obeyed economic policies set by the IMF, the Henrique Cardoso administration became known in the media as pro-American, even though in reality it had much more affinity with the European Union and the current anti-American mentality found in the UN. On the other hand, this government has been hostile to the Armed Forces, reducing their budget and their functions, excluding the military of the ministerial meetings, stimulating true and false accusations against military personnel that collaborated with the extinct authoritarian regime, rewarding with jobs and public money the terrorists that killed Brazilian soldiers, and so forth.

The result was that the hate towards the government grew among the military, along with the anti-Americanism. The widely recognized fact that the anti-military initiatives of the government were fomented by leftists did not change a single bit the attitude of the military, who, becoming aware of the support given to left-wing organizations by great entrepreneurial holdings like Ford and Rockefeller, interpreted the rising of the left as the effect of a sinister imperialistic plan plotted by the American government to debilitate Brazilian national sovereignty.

Well, a global movement to debilitate and neutralize the national sovereignties did exist, but it did not come from the American government, but from the EU and the UN, the same organizations that, on the other hand, did everything to politically isolate the US and Israel. As it happens, the latent conflict between US power and the great international organizations was never made public in Brazil, not even after the Durban Conference which made it patently evident.

Therefore, everything the international organizations did against national sovereignty (including the US’s own) was immediately attributed to the American government, viewed as a kind of deity controlling everything that happened in the universe. When I mentioned in the Brazilian press that President Clinton served more the purposes of these international organizations than the American State, I was called ‘a loony’ and thoroughly ignored, even among the military, who usually had respect for me.

To stimulate even more the anti-American hostility of the Brazilian military, the dismantling of our Armed Forces strictly followed a plan in ten steps suggested by the political scientist Huntington in a book circulated in Brazil with the sponsoring of Culture Minister Francisco Weffort, a man from the PT (Partido dos Trabalhadores—Workers’ Party) in Henrique Cardoso’s cabinet.

It is not surprising that the North American president who supported international policies that tended to stimulate these hostilities was the same who in the home front protected Chinese espionage, tied the CIA’s and the FBI’s hands against international terrorism, and debilitated the American Armed Forces. All this man wanted was to obtain for the US, even at the cost of the long-term destruction of the country, certain economic advantages that allowed him to pose in front of his voters as the savior of unemployed immigrants.

So, at the same time that he gave his country an image of an imperialistic power, arrogant and proud, he made it weak and helpless, in the military as well as diplomatic arenas. This is the path to self-destruction, and I do not believe that Clinton, elected with Chinese propaganda money, did it out of mere incompetence or lack of consciousness.

The hate towards the US in Brazil today is so deep and so disseminated in all social levels that it can only be eradicated through a long and laborious educational campaign. It is necessary to explain to Brazilians that the international organizations are not the US government, that the fight of globalist imperialism for the destruction of national sovereignties is not an American enterprise, being rather anti-American, and that the nationalistic façade of the leftist organizations in Brazil hides their collaboration with the anti-American globalist imperialism. If this is not made at once, any belligerent position the next government adopts against the US will be applauded by all the Brazilian people, fallen into the web of a tragic deceit.

July 26, 2005

Say whatever you like Marilia,

The point you originally made was that the majority of Australian and British were "anti-USA"

which was a silly statement. Not you, the statement.

Then I asked if you lived in either Australia or the UK. Then you said you'd been to the UK.

Then you tried to justify everything you wrote, no need to, I got your jist in a couple of sentences.

Hey, but what would I know.

Shaun.Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Well, folks, after Tom suggested we should not go on in this converstion I decided not even read the posts related to this subject, after I was called silly and delusional, which I find it is a bad argument.

(argument here, as it has a few meanings, doesn´t mean fight or debate. When I say bad argument I mean more a poor way to defend one´s views)

But well, decided for some reason read the post people found offensive...maybe I will not find this one offensive as I found the other one using the words silly and delusional.

(by the way, it is curious what words people in certain places use to offend people. Once a was at a psychologist house and she was annoyed with her brother and the words she chose to offend him was 'squizofrenic' and stuff like that). In all the lists I participated is the first time someone called me silly and delusional was in this list. Interesting!

OK Marilia if you want to play the semantics game,

So you lived in the States for one year

Also I didnt say been to London, I said lived in London. How long where your stays in the UK

Now I realise Marilia you might see yourself as super smart, remember, there is always someone smarter

How dare I , having lived in Australia for over 28 years and having lived in the USA for 7 and the UK for 4, assume I may know about these countries

Yet lia is right, show knows more

Must be hard to know everything huh Marilia

I did not say I knew more, I said I did not believe one necessarily had to live in a place in order to know certain things about that place. If I believed that I would have to believe no one could ever speak anything, nowadays, on ancient Greece, or talk about how things are in Iraq, unless been there. No one could know of atom unless that person had actually seen it, touched it, or know anything about whatever in the space if that person had never been there.

I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?

While I was in the States I was invited once for a literature class at Madison university when some students would expose somehting they studied of an author from my country and students were all americans...and I was amazed on how many details they knew about this authour and the period he lived...most who live here do not know.

After one year we lived abroad in a school everyone was local my aspie kid got first in the class in their language, which he had never studied before and that language his class mates have spoken all their lives-and in their history.

So, when you asked me how many years I lived in these places as this could be credentials for what one would post, if that in itself could give someone 'authority' in the subject...in my reply I said not that I was smarter than anyone else, but that this in itself is poor reasoning

I suggest Marilia that federal elections are a good example of what the people are thinking

Well, am not sure to what part of my post this is related....

Nowadyas there is all evidence that our president has lots to do with corruption, but some classes do not believe so and will vote for him next year. We all live here...each believes to know the truth.

Just like it was in Iraq

Shaun

Where do you live Marilia?

I have already posted this, but I guess you missed it.

http://www.riodejaneirovirtual.com/

__________________________________________________

July 26, 2005

Also, just because one studies the culture of Highland New Guinea, doesnt mean they know what the locals are saying about the local chief. For that intimate knowledge, yes I do think you have to live, work and play there.

That is like trying to envision being an average American, by reading the New York Times.

Shaun.S W <scwmachinations@...> wrote:

Say whatever you like Marilia,

The point you originally made was that the majority of Australian and British were "anti-USA"

which was a silly statement. Not you, the statement.

Then I asked if you lived in either Australia or the UK. Then you said you'd been to the UK.

Then you tried to justify everything you wrote, no need to, I got your jist in a couple of sentences.

Hey, but what would I know.

Shaun.Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Well, folks, after Tom suggested we should not go on in this converstion I decided not even read the posts related to this subject, after I was called silly and delusional, which I find it is a bad argument.

(argument here, as it has a few meanings, doesn´t mean fight or debate. When I say bad argument I mean more a poor way to defend one´s views)

But well, decided for some reason read the post people found offensive...maybe I will not find this one offensive as I found the other one using the words silly and delusional.

(by the way, it is curious what words people in certain places use to offend people. Once a was at a psychologist house and she was annoyed with her brother and the words she chose to offend him was 'squizofrenic' and stuff like that). In all the lists I participated is the first time someone called me silly and delusional was in this list. Interesting!

OK Marilia if you want to play the semantics game,

So you lived in the States for one year

Also I didnt say been to London, I said lived in London. How long where your stays in the UK

Now I realise Marilia you might see yourself as super smart, remember, there is always someone smarter

How dare I , having lived in Australia for over 28 years and having lived in the USA for 7 and the UK for 4, assume I may know about these countries

Yet lia is right, show knows more

Must be hard to know everything huh Marilia

I did not say I knew more, I said I did not believe one necessarily had to live in a place in order to know certain things about that place. If I believed that I would have to believe no one could ever speak anything, nowadays, on ancient Greece, or talk about how things are in Iraq, unless been there. No one could know of atom unless that person had actually seen it, touched it, or know anything about whatever in the space if that person had never been there.

I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?

While I was in the States I was invited once for a literature class at Madison university when some students would expose somehting they studied of an author from my country and students were all americans...and I was amazed on how many details they knew about this authour and the period he lived...most who live here do not know.

After one year we lived abroad in a school everyone was local my aspie kid got first in the class in their language, which he had never studied before and that language his class mates have spoken all their lives-and in their history.

So, when you asked me how many years I lived in these places as this could be credentials for what one would post, if that in itself could give someone 'authority' in the subject...in my reply I said not that I was smarter than anyone else, but that this in itself is poor reasoning

I suggest Marilia that federal elections are a good example of what the people are thinking

Well, am not sure to what part of my post this is related....

Nowadyas there is all evidence that our president has lots to do with corruption, but some classes do not believe so and will vote for him next year. We all live here...each believes to know the truth.

Just like it was in Iraq

Shaun

Where do you live Marilia?

I have already posted this, but I guess you missed it.

http://www.riodejaneirovirtual.com/

__________________________________________________

July 26, 2005

"I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?"

How can you explain that you ask Marilia?

Quite simply, maybe there is ethnic diversitity within the same community.

The englishmen (Pakistani cultural origin) who bombed London where from the one society.

I know that Australia is a part of the anglophere that shares a common language and majority descendency. 70% of Australians are anglo/irish and Western European.

Marilia, did you know that Australia had a referendum on whether we should become a republican country or stay a part of the monoarchy and commonwealth. The vote was over 70% chose to remain anglo. Why? Tell me why Marilia.

Shaun.

Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Well, folks, after Tom suggested we should not go on in this converstion I decided not even read the posts related to this subject, after I was called silly and delusional, which I find it is a bad argument.

(argument here, as it has a few meanings, doesn´t mean fight or debate. When I say bad argument I mean more a poor way to defend one´s views)

But well, decided for some reason read the post people found offensive...maybe I will not find this one offensive as I found the other one using the words silly and delusional.

(by the way, it is curious what words people in certain places use to offend people. Once a was at a psychologist house and she was annoyed with her brother and the words she chose to offend him was 'squizofrenic' and stuff like that). In all the lists I participated is the first time someone called me silly and delusional was in this list. Interesting!

OK Marilia if you want to play the semantics game,

So you lived in the States for one year

Also I didnt say been to London, I said lived in London. How long where your stays in the UK

Now I realise Marilia you might see yourself as super smart, remember, there is always someone smarter

How dare I , having lived in Australia for over 28 years and having lived in the USA for 7 and the UK for 4, assume I may know about these countries

Yet lia is right, show knows more

Must be hard to know everything huh Marilia

I did not say I knew more, I said I did not believe one necessarily had to live in a place in order to know certain things about that place. If I believed that I would have to believe no one could ever speak anything, nowadays, on ancient Greece, or talk about how things are in Iraq, unless been there. No one could know of atom unless that person had actually seen it, touched it, or know anything about whatever in the space if that person had never been there.

I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?

While I was in the States I was invited once for a literature class at Madison university when some students would expose somehting they studied of an author from my country and students were all americans...and I was amazed on how many details they knew about this authour and the period he lived...most who live here do not know.

After one year we lived abroad in a school everyone was local my aspie kid got first in the class in their language, which he had never studied before and that language his class mates have spoken all their lives-and in their history.

So, when you asked me how many years I lived in these places as this could be credentials for what one would post, if that in itself could give someone 'authority' in the subject...in my reply I said not that I was smarter than anyone else, but that this in itself is poor reasoning

I suggest Marilia that federal elections are a good example of what the people are thinking

Well, am not sure to what part of my post this is related....

Nowadyas there is all evidence that our president has lots to do with corruption, but some classes do not believe so and will vote for him next year. We all live here...each believes to know the truth.

Just like it was in Iraq

Shaun

Where do you live Marilia?

I have already posted this, but I guess you missed it.

http://www.riodejaneirovirtual.com/

__________________________________________________

July 26, 2005

Not just because of ethnical differences, as members in the same family can grasp different parts of culture and have different views of it according to their psychological traits, preferences, knowledge, understanding, to which views and authours and propaganda they have been exposed to, and so forth.

In order to answer on why was that voted in Australia I would have to know something about it, or be interested in understading this subject.

Marilia

Original Message -----

From: S W

Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:54 PM

Subject: Re: We are losing the war on terror!

"I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?"

How can you explain that you ask Marilia?

Quite simply, maybe there is ethnic diversitity within the same community.

The englishmen (Pakistani cultural origin) who bombed London where from the one society.

I know that Australia is a part of the anglophere that shares a common language and majority descendency. 70% of Australians are anglo/irish and Western European.

Marilia, did you know that Australia had a referendum on whether we should become a republican country or stay a part of the monoarchy and commonwealth. The vote was over 70% chose to remain anglo. Why? Tell me why Marilia.

Shaun.

Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Well, folks, after Tom suggested we should not go on in this converstion I decided not even read the posts related to this subject, after I was called silly and delusional, which I find it is a bad argument.

(argument here, as it has a few meanings, doesn´t mean fight or debate. When I say bad argument I mean more a poor way to defend one´s views)

But well, decided for some reason read the post people found offensive...maybe I will not find this one offensive as I found the other one using the words silly and delusional.

(by the way, it is curious what words people in certain places use to offend people. Once a was at a psychologist house and she was annoyed with her brother and the words she chose to offend him was 'squizofrenic' and stuff like that). In all the lists I participated is the first time someone called me silly and delusional was in this list. Interesting!

OK Marilia if you want to play the semantics game,

So you lived in the States for one year

Also I didnt say been to London, I said lived in London. How long where your stays in the UK

Now I realise Marilia you might see yourself as super smart, remember, there is always someone smarter

How dare I , having lived in Australia for over 28 years and having lived in the USA for 7 and the UK for 4, assume I may know about these countries

Yet lia is right, show knows more

Must be hard to know everything huh Marilia

I did not say I knew more, I said I did not believe one necessarily had to live in a place in order to know certain things about that place. If I believed that I would have to believe no one could ever speak anything, nowadays, on ancient Greece, or talk about how things are in Iraq, unless been there. No one could know of atom unless that person had actually seen it, touched it, or know anything about whatever in the space if that person had never been there.

I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?

While I was in the States I was invited once for a literature class at Madison university when some students would expose somehting they studied of an author from my country and students were all americans...and I was amazed on how many details they knew about this authour and the period he lived...most who live here do not know.

After one year we lived abroad in a school everyone was local my aspie kid got first in the class in their language, which he had never studied before and that language his class mates have spoken all their lives-and in their history.

So, when you asked me how many years I lived in these places as this could be credentials for what one would post, if that in itself could give someone 'authority' in the subject...in my reply I said not that I was smarter than anyone else, but that this in itself is poor reasoning

I suggest Marilia that federal elections are a good example of what the people are thinking

Well, am not sure to what part of my post this is related....

Nowadyas there is all evidence that our president has lots to do with corruption, but some classes do not believe so and will vote for him next year. We all live here...each believes to know the truth.

Just like it was in Iraq

Shaun

Where do you live Marilia?

I have already posted this, but I guess you missed it.

http://www.riodejaneirovirtual.com/

__________________________________________________

July 26, 2005

Exactly my point.Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Not just because of ethnical differences, as members in the same family can grasp different parts of culture and have different views of it according to their psychological traits, preferences, knowledge, understanding, to which views and authours and propaganda they have been exposed to, and so forth.

In order to answer on why was that voted in Australia I would have to know something about it, or be interested in understading this subject.

Marilia

Original Message -----

From: S W

Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:54 PM

Subject: Re: We are losing the war on terror!

"I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?"

How can you explain that you ask Marilia?

Quite simply, maybe there is ethnic diversitity within the same community.

The englishmen (Pakistani cultural origin) who bombed London where from the one society.

I know that Australia is a part of the anglophere that shares a common language and majority descendency. 70% of Australians are anglo/irish and Western European.

Marilia, did you know that Australia had a referendum on whether we should become a republican country or stay a part of the monoarchy and commonwealth. The vote was over 70% chose to remain anglo. Why? Tell me why Marilia.

Shaun.

Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Well, folks, after Tom suggested we should not go on in this converstion I decided not even read the posts related to this subject, after I was called silly and delusional, which I find it is a bad argument.

(argument here, as it has a few meanings, doesn´t mean fight or debate. When I say bad argument I mean more a poor way to defend one´s views)

But well, decided for some reason read the post people found offensive...maybe I will not find this one offensive as I found the other one using the words silly and delusional.

(by the way, it is curious what words people in certain places use to offend people. Once a was at a psychologist house and she was annoyed with her brother and the words she chose to offend him was 'squizofrenic' and stuff like that). In all the lists I participated is the first time someone called me silly and delusional was in this list. Interesting!

OK Marilia if you want to play the semantics game,

So you lived in the States for one year

Also I didnt say been to London, I said lived in London. How long where your stays in the UK

Now I realise Marilia you might see yourself as super smart, remember, there is always someone smarter

How dare I , having lived in Australia for over 28 years and having lived in the USA for 7 and the UK for 4, assume I may know about these countries

Yet lia is right, show knows more

Must be hard to know everything huh Marilia

I did not say I knew more, I said I did not believe one necessarily had to live in a place in order to know certain things about that place. If I believed that I would have to believe no one could ever speak anything, nowadays, on ancient Greece, or talk about how things are in Iraq, unless been there. No one could know of atom unless that person had actually seen it, touched it, or know anything about whatever in the space if that person had never been there.

I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?

While I was in the States I was invited once for a literature class at Madison university when some students would expose somehting they studied of an author from my country and students were all americans...and I was amazed on how many details they knew about this authour and the period he lived...most who live here do not know.

After one year we lived abroad in a school everyone was local my aspie kid got first in the class in their language, which he had never studied before and that language his class mates have spoken all their lives-and in their history.

So, when you asked me how many years I lived in these places as this could be credentials for what one would post, if that in itself could give someone 'authority' in the subject...in my reply I said not that I was smarter than anyone else, but that this in itself is poor reasoning

I suggest Marilia that federal elections are a good example of what the people are thinking

Well, am not sure to what part of my post this is related....

Nowadyas there is all evidence that our president has lots to do with corruption, but some classes do not believe so and will vote for him next year. We all live here...each believes to know the truth.

Just like it was in Iraq

Shaun

Where do you live Marilia?

I have already posted this, but I guess you missed it.

http://www.riodejaneirovirtual.com/

__________________________________________________

July 26, 2005

If you live in a a city where you know 'locals' and if you use internet where lots of these locals go to, if you have friends and meet them at msn you can, yes, know what they think about it, if, besides that you read some of their papers and when some of your students are from that place and when your kids studied at an american school where only american and canadians teach.

The guys who take care of the building I live or the lady who irons my clothes have lived here for ages...but they do not know many things about my country, and what is said about the president national midia or international midia because they simply liked the president as he came from a poor start and has charisma....and his marketter helps him to talk to these people, whom would still vote for him...they -well, all of us-many times are more guided by our feelings and emotions than out of commom sense.

Also, just because one studies the culture of Highland New Guinea, doesnt mean they know what the locals are saying about the local chief. For that intimate knowledge, yes I do think you have to live, work and play there.

That is like trying to envision being an average American, by reading the New York Times.

Shaun.

July 26, 2005

I apologize Marilia,

I dont even know you, but I know you can take it by your own posts.

Just of late, I have had many different friends who are not American or know anything about America, say that they are brainwashed by fox news. Its like pulling a race card, disagree with them and then it is "You Americans have been watching too much Fox TV" and the like.

They seem to know about America than do the Americans.

Shaun.Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Not just because of ethnical differences, as members in the same family can grasp different parts of culture and have different views of it according to their psychological traits, preferences, knowledge, understanding, to which views and authours and propaganda they have been exposed to, and so forth.

In order to answer on why was that voted in Australia I would have to know something about it, or be interested in understading this subject.

Marilia

Original Message -----

From: S W

Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 12:54 PM

Subject: Re: We are losing the war on terror!

"I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?"

How can you explain that you ask Marilia?

Quite simply, maybe there is ethnic diversitity within the same community.

The englishmen (Pakistani cultural origin) who bombed London where from the one society.

I know that Australia is a part of the anglophere that shares a common language and majority descendency. 70% of Australians are anglo/irish and Western European.

Marilia, did you know that Australia had a referendum on whether we should become a republican country or stay a part of the monoarchy and commonwealth. The vote was over 70% chose to remain anglo. Why? Tell me why Marilia.

Shaun.

Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Well, folks, after Tom suggested we should not go on in this converstion I decided not even read the posts related to this subject, after I was called silly and delusional, which I find it is a bad argument.

(argument here, as it has a few meanings, doesn´t mean fight or debate. When I say bad argument I mean more a poor way to defend one´s views)

But well, decided for some reason read the post people found offensive...maybe I will not find this one offensive as I found the other one using the words silly and delusional.

(by the way, it is curious what words people in certain places use to offend people. Once a was at a psychologist house and she was annoyed with her brother and the words she chose to offend him was 'squizofrenic' and stuff like that). In all the lists I participated is the first time someone called me silly and delusional was in this list. Interesting!

OK Marilia if you want to play the semantics game,

So you lived in the States for one year

Also I didnt say been to London, I said lived in London. How long where your stays in the UK

Now I realise Marilia you might see yourself as super smart, remember, there is always someone smarter

How dare I , having lived in Australia for over 28 years and having lived in the USA for 7 and the UK for 4, assume I may know about these countries

Yet lia is right, show knows more

Must be hard to know everything huh Marilia

I did not say I knew more, I said I did not believe one necessarily had to live in a place in order to know certain things about that place. If I believed that I would have to believe no one could ever speak anything, nowadays, on ancient Greece, or talk about how things are in Iraq, unless been there. No one could know of atom unless that person had actually seen it, touched it, or know anything about whatever in the space if that person had never been there.

I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?

While I was in the States I was invited once for a literature class at Madison university when some students would expose somehting they studied of an author from my country and students were all americans...and I was amazed on how many details they knew about this authour and the period he lived...most who live here do not know.

After one year we lived abroad in a school everyone was local my aspie kid got first in the class in their language, which he had never studied before and that language his class mates have spoken all their lives-and in their history.

So, when you asked me how many years I lived in these places as this could be credentials for what one would post, if that in itself could give someone 'authority' in the subject...in my reply I said not that I was smarter than anyone else, but that this in itself is poor reasoning

I suggest Marilia that federal elections are a good example of what the people are thinking

Well, am not sure to what part of my post this is related....

Nowadyas there is all evidence that our president has lots to do with corruption, but some classes do not believe so and will vote for him next year. We all live here...each believes to know the truth.

Just like it was in Iraq

Shaun

Where do you live Marilia?

I have already posted this, but I guess you missed it.

http://www.riodejaneirovirtual.com/

__________________________________________________

July 26, 2005

Marilia, just because locals discuss issues on the internet, doesnt mean they represent the majority of typical Americans. As an example, old people are less likely to use the internet extensively, but the elderly represent a powerful voting base. What percent of bloggers would be over the age of sixty? What about the average bricklayer, they dont spend copious amounts of time on the internet. I don't think a blogger would represent any major block of the population at this stage. Maybe when our generation becomes the elderly.

To live, work and play is to know those people.

Shaun.

Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

If you live in a a city where you know 'locals' and if you use internet where lots of these locals go to, if you have friends and meet them at msn you can, yes, know what they think about it, if, besides that you read some of their papers and when some of your students are from that place and when your kids studied at an american school where only american and canadians teach.

The guys who take care of the building I live or the lady who irons my clothes have lived here for ages...but they do not know many things about my country, and what is said about the president national midia or international midia because they simply liked the president as he came from a poor start and has charisma....and his marketter helps him to talk to these people, whom would still vote for him...they -well, all of us-many times are more guided by our feelings and emotions than out of commom sense.

Also, just because one studies the culture of Highland New Guinea, doesnt mean they know what the locals are saying about the local chief. For that intimate knowledge, yes I do think you have to live, work and play there.

That is like trying to envision being an average American, by reading the New York Times.

Shaun.

Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

July 26, 2005

You got me wrong in that. If I sadi british were anti american I guess I was then a bit out of my mind.

What I said is that people in my place, most, are anti american-. An artcle I sent Tom explains that a little better. In fact not just us: the day that the twin towers went down I was watching a french chanel, and the french too believed that it is US fault to be attacked.

These days my husband was in the USA for a meeting in California and then there was no flight to come back home. I was so scared...all that was a shock for everybody.

But then, to relax me from the fear, I went that night to hear a lady from Australia who was here lecturing. While she was lecturing she said maybe US would learn compassion from this experience, as it has always been a brutal nation.

(she came back here the folowing year and she started political issues again, in spite of not being political the reason we went to hear her, and then again she pointed white house was wrong in this and that. I even wrote her an email asking her that I thought she was wrong in some of her views...but she disagrees)

At the same period I used to go to a list of some mystical folks. An american one. People there were considering if that was US Karma....if it was their fault, due to past wars, etc...and then a lady from Australia was the one who thought that way, that it was the blame to put on americans, etc, etc. She was strongly opinionated about it...not simply expression a plain opinion. . Then, in one of the boards I have used to, on astrology, there is this Liza from Australia, and when everybody was talkin on astrological reasons for the attack, she was the one with eloquent political reasons agaisnt US.

I read Le Monde every now and then and I do find subtle anti american stuff there...same in our press...and it was clear during that period post attack. Then I was posting my thought that australians may be that way too.

I stopped being like that after this same teacher of mine wrote somehting about the many good things of american culture. All the size of its greatness in all areas, either technology, -am using internet because of US-medicine, art, etc, but most of all because of some of its principles that it has shown the world. For instance, most of the people who won a war agasint other people have imposed their language and their culture to that people, like France, for instance. Not USA. Also the democracy it has taugh the world, etc.

Well, even though I was anti american (imperialism)-influenced by 'intelectuals' of the place I live, I was never anti the american people. I have known many been friends of many, dated a few, some I keep friendship for a long time.

I am sorry if my view on the australians was wrong.

I used to have the link for the Australian and Australian Observer, and The Age, but none are working.

Do you have them? Or do you have any other better australian paper?

Marilia

Re: We are losing the war on terror!

Say whatever you like Marilia,

The point you originally made was that the majority of Australian and British were "anti-USA"

which was a silly statement. Not you, the statement.

Then I asked if you lived in either Australia or the UK. Then you said you'd been to the UK.

Then you tried to justify everything you wrote, no need to, I got your jist in a couple of sentences.

Hey, but what would I know.

Shaun.Marilia Tavares <marilia.trp@...> wrote:

Well, folks, after Tom suggested we should not go on in this converstion I decided not even read the posts related to this subject, after I was called silly and delusional, which I find it is a bad argument.

(argument here, as it has a few meanings, doesn´t mean fight or debate. When I say bad argument I mean more a poor way to defend one´s views)

But well, decided for some reason read the post people found offensive...maybe I will not find this one offensive as I found the other one using the words silly and delusional.

(by the way, it is curious what words people in certain places use to offend people. Once a was at a psychologist house and she was annoyed with her brother and the words she chose to offend him was 'squizofrenic' and stuff like that). In all the lists I participated is the first time someone called me silly and delusional was in this list. Interesting!

OK Marilia if you want to play the semantics game,

So you lived in the States for one year

Also I didnt say been to London, I said lived in London. How long where your stays in the UK

Now I realise Marilia you might see yourself as super smart, remember, there is always someone smarter

How dare I , having lived in Australia for over 28 years and having lived in the USA for 7 and the UK for 4, assume I may know about these countries

Yet lia is right, show knows more

Must be hard to know everything huh Marilia

I did not say I knew more, I said I did not believe one necessarily had to live in a place in order to know certain things about that place. If I believed that I would have to believe no one could ever speak anything, nowadays, on ancient Greece, or talk about how things are in Iraq, unless been there. No one could know of atom unless that person had actually seen it, touched it, or know anything about whatever in the space if that person had never been there.

I know many people from my country, or many people from other specific country, and each has different views on that same place, in spite of living all their lives there.

How can you explain that?

While I was in the States I was invited once for a literature class at Madison university when some students would expose somehting they studied of an author from my country and students were all americans...and I was amazed on how many details they knew about this authour and the period he lived...most who live here do not know.

After one year we lived abroad in a school everyone was local my aspie kid got first in the class in their language, which he had never studied before and that language his class mates have spoken all their lives-and in their history.

So, when you asked me how many years I lived in these places as this could be credentials for what one would post, if that in itself could give someone 'authority' in the subject...in my reply I said not that I was smarter than anyone else, but that this in itself is poor reasoning

I suggest Marilia that federal elections are a good example of what the people are thinking

Well, am not sure to what part of my post this is related....

Nowadyas there is all evidence that our president has lots to do with corruption, but some classes do not believe so and will vote for him next year. We all live here...each believes to know the truth.

Just like it was in Iraq

Shaun

Where do you live Marilia?

I have already posted this, but I guess you missed it.

http://www.riodejaneirovirtual.com/

__________________________________________________

July 26, 2005

Marilia,

"maybe US would learn compassion from this experience, as it has always been a brutal nation.".

Can you think of any nation on the planet that hasn't at some time been a brutal nation?

See, alot of dreamers believes there are nations totally at harmony with others. Like the American red indian, that were conquerers as well, fought for resources and what not.

The New Zealand Moari, they actually were descendant from the Hawaiians and conquered the Cocos Island peoples through violence. (Atypical of the New guineanian people) So name just one tribe who is innocent of indescretion against other people?