Re: Statement about HIV and supplement control

January 9, 2008

Hey--

Agreed re 's points. Let me just add that the Fawzie study

(and I have the full paper for anyone who'd like to review it) among

Tanzanian women showed a number of promising effects, INCLUDING

statistically significant reductions in viral load (albeit small ones

versus increases in placebo groups) and increases in CD4 count

compared to baseline.

Thus, it is incorrect to state that a multivitamin cannot both

decrease progression rates (as other longitudinal studies have shown)

and impact viral evolution. Indeed, they also noted several

significant reductions in clinical events among multi recipients.

The study also looked at very high dose vitamin A (200,000 IUs) and

this alone was as bad as placebo and with a multi, blunted the

benefits of a multi.

Finally, this does NOT mean, as only a denialist idiot like Matthias

Rath would suggest, that a multi can replace ARV. Progression to

later stages of HIV disease still occurred in the multi-using group.

Clearly, though, this is an inexpensive intervention that should

simply be part of STANDARD OF CARE (i.e., readily available and on

any formulary in any state). In Africa, the annual per person cost is

$15. In the US it is higher (surprise).

To the extent further that supplements may have some salutary effect

(as with other supplements) on ARV toxicities, this further

underscores the need for judicious use, cost-containing strategies

and advocacy to include these agents under public and private

insurance formularies.

M.

January 10, 2008

I would love to read the article,

but you should notice 2 factors:

A) Education has a lot to do with eating habits, and

sadly we do see that a lot right here in the USA

especially with lower income groups,

in fact growing up in Italy I have a very different

diet from

the average american, so again I have to wonder about

the diet of

African if only due to poverty and products

availability.

The second factor I was talking about is life style

and the abuse of

drugs and other agents that will impoverish the body

of needed nutriments, especially in HIV positive

individuals.

That said I believe that hit the nail on the

head when he said the key word with supplements is

" complementary " as in added benefits, but the heavy

weight lifting is done by HIV medications.

Mark

--- <fiar@...> wrote:

> Mark, I can only encourage you to actually READ the

> article. You are

> making somewhat racist presumptions that

> African=malnourished (altho

> indeed far too many Africans starve to death,

> largely due to

> interference by the US and European governments and

> corporations).

>

> However, while they don't directly address

> nutritional status per se

> (e.g., no daily intake diaries), there are data

> reflecting arm

> circumference, plasma levels of various

> micronutrients and so forth

> that do not indicate malnourishment (or suffering

> from the new stupid

> phrase " food insecurity " ).

>

> Drop me an email if you'd like to read the full

> article.

> M.

>

> On Jan 10, 2008, at 9:22 AM, Mark wrote:

>

> > When it comes to supplements it is all about

> > deficiency.

> > Those Tanzanians women most likely did not have a

> diet

> > comparable to a US or European citizen, in fact

> they

> > might have been malnourished to begin with.

>

________________________________________________________________________________\

____

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January 11, 2008

Ok, enough on this subject. Last email approved on this discussion for a while. I am bored reading this.

Regards, Vergelpowerusa dot org

In a message dated 1/11/2008 8:40:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, michael@... writes:

Good points, Mark. Exactly - it's all about nutrient defiencies.However, it is known and published that over 90 percent of the generalpopulation in the USA are deficient in several essential nutrients. InHIV, deficiency is even more prevalent. Baum and Beach at Universityof Miami detailed how people with HIV can require 6 to 25 times theRDA of essential nutrients to attain optimal cell levels of nutrientsbecause of the load put on the body fighting HIV. The antiviralmedications put even more burden on the body's nutrient supply.Nutrient deficiencies are the important factor, but they create adeficiency of important immune factors, like glutathione, which HIV(and the liver burden created by the meds) "eats up."All told, everyone with HIV should consider the use of dietarysupplements that supply the essential nutrients as well as some othersupplements, unless you are eating the 10 to 15 servings of fruits andvegetables per day that can supply them simply because it is knownthat a great majority of people are nutrient deficient.Body nutrient analysis is costly or it would be recommended foreveryone with HIV or any other pathology. It's more prudent to assumeone is deficient than that one gets all they need from their dailyfood intake. Mooneywww.michaelmooney.netwww.medibolics.com> > > Hey--> > > > Agreed re 's points. Let me just add that the> > Fawzie study > > (and I have the full paper for anyone who'd like to> > review it) among > > Tanzanian women showed a number of promising> > effects, INCLUDING > > statistically significant reductions in viral load> > (albeit small ones > > versus increases in placebo groups) and increases in> > CD4 count > > compared to baseline.> > > > Thus, it is incorrect to state that a multivitamin> > cannot both > > decrease progression rates (as other longitudinal> > studies have shown) > > and impact viral evolution. Indeed, they also noted> > several > > significant reductions in clinical events among> > multi recipients.> > > > The study also looked at very high dose vitamin A> > (200,000 IUs) and > > this alone was as bad as placebo and with a multi,> > blunted the > > benefits of a multi.> > > > Finally, this does NOT mean, as only a denialist> > idiot like Matthias > > Rath would suggest, that a multi can replace ARV.> > Progression to > > later stages of HIV disease still occurred in the> > multi-using group.> > > > Clearly, though, this is an inexpensive intervention> > that should > > simply be part of STANDARD OF CARE (i.e., readily> > available and on > > any formulary in any state). In Africa, the annual> > per person cost is > > $15. In the US it is higher (surprise).> > > > To the extent further that supplements may have some> > salutary effect > > (as with other supplements) on ARV toxicities, this> > further > > underscores the need for judicious use,> > cost-containing strategies > > and advocacy to include these agents under public> > and private > > insurance formularies.> > > > M. > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group!> > > > If you received this email from someone who> > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > group, send a blank email to> > -subscribe and you will get> > an email with instructions to follow.> > > > You can chose to receive single emails or a daily> > digest (collection of emails). You can post> > pictures, images, attach files and search by keyword> > old postings in the group.> > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > visit www., click on , then> > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > selection. The list administrator does not process> > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > process ! > > > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > in this group!> > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > this, please do not join the group. > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > this information! Thanks!> > > > In Health,> > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@...)> > List Founder and Moderator> > > >

January 11, 2008

Ok, enough on this subject. Last email approved on this discussion for a while. I am bored reading this.

Regards, Vergelpowerusa dot org

In a message dated 1/11/2008 8:40:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, michael@... writes:

Good points, Mark. Exactly - it's all about nutrient defiencies.However, it is known and published that over 90 percent of the generalpopulation in the USA are deficient in several essential nutrients. InHIV, deficiency is even more prevalent. Baum and Beach at Universityof Miami detailed how people with HIV can require 6 to 25 times theRDA of essential nutrients to attain optimal cell levels of nutrientsbecause of the load put on the body fighting HIV. The antiviralmedications put even more burden on the body's nutrient supply.Nutrient deficiencies are the important factor, but they create adeficiency of important immune factors, like glutathione, which HIV(and the liver burden created by the meds) "eats up."All told, everyone with HIV should consider the use of dietarysupplements that supply the essential nutrients as well as some othersupplements, unless you are eating the 10 to 15 servings of fruits andvegetables per day that can supply them simply because it is knownthat a great majority of people are nutrient deficient.Body nutrient analysis is costly or it would be recommended foreveryone with HIV or any other pathology. It's more prudent to assumeone is deficient than that one gets all they need from their dailyfood intake. Mooneywww.michaelmooney.netwww.medibolics.com> > > Hey--> > > > Agreed re 's points. Let me just add that the> > Fawzie study > > (and I have the full paper for anyone who'd like to> > review it) among > > Tanzanian women showed a number of promising> > effects, INCLUDING > > statistically significant reductions in viral load> > (albeit small ones > > versus increases in placebo groups) and increases in> > CD4 count > > compared to baseline.> > > > Thus, it is incorrect to state that a multivitamin> > cannot both > > decrease progression rates (as other longitudinal> > studies have shown) > > and impact viral evolution. Indeed, they also noted> > several > > significant reductions in clinical events among> > multi recipients.> > > > The study also looked at very high dose vitamin A> > (200,000 IUs) and > > this alone was as bad as placebo and with a multi,> > blunted the > > benefits of a multi.> > > > Finally, this does NOT mean, as only a denialist> > idiot like Matthias > > Rath would suggest, that a multi can replace ARV.> > Progression to > > later stages of HIV disease still occurred in the> > multi-using group.> > > > Clearly, though, this is an inexpensive intervention> > that should > > simply be part of STANDARD OF CARE (i.e., readily> > available and on > > any formulary in any state). In Africa, the annual> > per person cost is > > $15. In the US it is higher (surprise).> > > > To the extent further that supplements may have some> > salutary effect > > (as with other supplements) on ARV toxicities, this> > further > > underscores the need for judicious use,> > cost-containing strategies > > and advocacy to include these agents under public> > and private > > insurance formularies.> > > > M. > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group!> > > > If you received this email from someone who> > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > group, send a blank email to> > -subscribe and you will get> > an email with instructions to follow.> > > > You can chose to receive single emails or a daily> > digest (collection of emails). You can post> > pictures, images, attach files and search by keyword> > old postings in the group.> > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > visit www., click on , then> > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > selection. The list administrator does not process> > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > process ! > > > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > in this group!> > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > this, please do not join the group. > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > this information! Thanks!> > > > In Health,> > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@...)> > List Founder and Moderator> > > >

January 11, 2008

Ok, enough on this subject. Last email approved on this discussion for a while. I am bored reading this.

Regards, Vergelpowerusa dot org

In a message dated 1/11/2008 8:40:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, michael@... writes:

Good points, Mark. Exactly - it's all about nutrient defiencies.However, it is known and published that over 90 percent of the generalpopulation in the USA are deficient in several essential nutrients. InHIV, deficiency is even more prevalent. Baum and Beach at Universityof Miami detailed how people with HIV can require 6 to 25 times theRDA of essential nutrients to attain optimal cell levels of nutrientsbecause of the load put on the body fighting HIV. The antiviralmedications put even more burden on the body's nutrient supply.Nutrient deficiencies are the important factor, but they create adeficiency of important immune factors, like glutathione, which HIV(and the liver burden created by the meds) "eats up."All told, everyone with HIV should consider the use of dietarysupplements that supply the essential nutrients as well as some othersupplements, unless you are eating the 10 to 15 servings of fruits andvegetables per day that can supply them simply because it is knownthat a great majority of people are nutrient deficient.Body nutrient analysis is costly or it would be recommended foreveryone with HIV or any other pathology. It's more prudent to assumeone is deficient than that one gets all they need from their dailyfood intake. Mooneywww.michaelmooney.netwww.medibolics.com> > > Hey--> > > > Agreed re 's points. Let me just add that the> > Fawzie study > > (and I have the full paper for anyone who'd like to> > review it) among > > Tanzanian women showed a number of promising> > effects, INCLUDING > > statistically significant reductions in viral load> > (albeit small ones > > versus increases in placebo groups) and increases in> > CD4 count > > compared to baseline.> > > > Thus, it is incorrect to state that a multivitamin> > cannot both > > decrease progression rates (as other longitudinal> > studies have shown) > > and impact viral evolution. Indeed, they also noted> > several > > significant reductions in clinical events among> > multi recipients.> > > > The study also looked at very high dose vitamin A> > (200,000 IUs) and > > this alone was as bad as placebo and with a multi,> > blunted the > > benefits of a multi.> > > > Finally, this does NOT mean, as only a denialist> > idiot like Matthias > > Rath would suggest, that a multi can replace ARV.> > Progression to > > later stages of HIV disease still occurred in the> > multi-using group.> > > > Clearly, though, this is an inexpensive intervention> > that should > > simply be part of STANDARD OF CARE (i.e., readily> > available and on > > any formulary in any state). In Africa, the annual> > per person cost is > > $15. In the US it is higher (surprise).> > > > To the extent further that supplements may have some> > salutary effect > > (as with other supplements) on ARV toxicities, this> > further > > underscores the need for judicious use,> > cost-containing strategies > > and advocacy to include these agents under public> > and private > > insurance formularies.> > > > M. > > > > > > > > Welcome to our group!> > > > If you received this email from someone who> > forwarded it to you and would like to join this> > group, send a blank email to> > -subscribe and you will get> > an email with instructions to follow.> > > > You can chose to receive single emails or a daily> > digest (collection of emails). You can post> > pictures, images, attach files and search by keyword> > old postings in the group.> > > > For those of you who are members already and want to> > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,> > visit www., click on , then> > on "edit my membership" and go down to your> > selection. The list administrator does not process> > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy> > process ! > > > > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot> > in this group!> > > > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails> > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines> > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,> > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who> > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with> > this, please do not join the group. > > > > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from> > this information! Thanks!> > > > In Health,> > > > Vergel (PoWeRTX@...)> > List Founder and Moderator> > > >

January 11, 2008

Good points, Mark. Exactly - it's all about nutrient defiencies.

However, it is known and published that over 90 percent of the general

population in the USA are deficient in several essential nutrients. In

HIV, deficiency is even more prevalent. Baum and Beach at University

of Miami detailed how people with HIV can require 6 to 25 times the

RDA of essential nutrients to attain optimal cell levels of nutrients

because of the load put on the body fighting HIV. The antiviral

medications put even more burden on the body's nutrient supply.

Nutrient deficiencies are the important factor, but they create a

deficiency of important immune factors, like glutathione, which HIV

(and the liver burden created by the meds) " eats up. "

All told, everyone with HIV should consider the use of dietary

supplements that supply the essential nutrients as well as some other

supplements, unless you are eating the 10 to 15 servings of fruits and

vegetables per day that can supply them simply because it is known

that a great majority of people are nutrient deficient.

Body nutrient analysis is costly or it would be recommended for

everyone with HIV or any other pathology. It's more prudent to assume

one is deficient than that one gets all they need from their daily

food intake.

Mooney

www.michaelmooney.net

www.medibolics.com

>

> > Hey--

> >

> > Agreed re 's points. Let me just add that the

> > Fawzie study

> > (and I have the full paper for anyone who'd like to

> > review it) among

> > Tanzanian women showed a number of promising

> > effects, INCLUDING

> > statistically significant reductions in viral load

> > (albeit small ones

> > versus increases in placebo groups) and increases in

> > CD4 count

> > compared to baseline.

> >

> > Thus, it is incorrect to state that a multivitamin

> > cannot both

> > decrease progression rates (as other longitudinal

> > studies have shown)

> > and impact viral evolution. Indeed, they also noted

> > several

> > significant reductions in clinical events among

> > multi recipients.

> >

> > The study also looked at very high dose vitamin A

> > (200,000 IUs) and

> > this alone was as bad as placebo and with a multi,

> > blunted the

> > benefits of a multi.

> >

> > Finally, this does NOT mean, as only a denialist

> > idiot like Matthias

> > Rath would suggest, that a multi can replace ARV.

> > Progression to

> > later stages of HIV disease still occurred in the

> > multi-using group.

> >

> > Clearly, though, this is an inexpensive intervention

> > that should

> > simply be part of STANDARD OF CARE (i.e., readily

> > available and on

> > any formulary in any state). In Africa, the annual

> > per person cost is

> > $15. In the US it is higher (surprise).

> >

> > To the extent further that supplements may have some

> > salutary effect

> > (as with other supplements) on ARV toxicities, this

> > further

> > underscores the need for judicious use,

> > cost-containing strategies

> > and advocacy to include these agents under public

> > and private

> > insurance formularies.

> >

> > M.

> >

> > Welcome to our group!

> >

> > If you received this email from someone who

> > forwarded it to you and would like to join this

> > group, send a blank email to

> > -subscribe and you will get

> > an email with instructions to follow.

> >

> > You can chose to receive single emails or a daily

> > digest (collection of emails). You can post

> > pictures, images, attach files and search by keyword

> > old postings in the group.

> >

> > For those of you who are members already and want to

> > switch from single emails to digest or vice versa,

> > visit www., click on , then

> > on " edit my membership " and go down to your

> > selection. The list administrator does not process

> > any requests, so this is a do-it-yourself easy

> > process !

> >

> > Thanks for joining. You will learn and share a lot

> > in this group!

> >

> > NOTE: I moderate, approve or disapprove emails

> > before they are posted. Please follow the guidelines

> > shown in the homepage. I will not allow rudeness,

> > sexually explicit material, attacks, and anyone who

> > does not follow the rules. If you are not OK with

> > this, please do not join the group.

> >

> > Forward this email to anyone who may benefit from

> > this information! Thanks!

> >

> > In Health,

> >

> > Vergel (PoWeRTX@...)

> > List Founder and Moderator

> >

January 11, 2008