Guest guest Posted November 2, 2000 Report Share Posted November 2, 2000 Hello Ruth, I am a bit confused about the above post. Is this your response to Andy? I was very shocked by the facts presented about LA, does this mean that it is not safe even after chelating the loosly bound mercury for a period first? Celia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2000 Report Share Posted November 3, 2000 --- From egroups: <<Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 00:43:02 -0000 From: " Celia Forrest " <C.Forrest@...> Subject: Re: Fw:The Posting on LA Hello Ruth, I am a bit confused about the above post. Is this your response to Andy?>> Hi Celia, Thanks for asking for clarification. (This post is for the whole group to read.) Yes, it is my reply to Andy, but it is for EVERYONE to see. As far as I can tell, this is the ONLY paper that says LA increases excretion of mercury, but as you can see, that is NOT what the article really says. Many people are claiming that those of us who are expressing concern over the use of LA are misinterpreting the article and creating panic. That's not true. I have extensively quoted the article to place what the article actually says in front of the parents of this group. >>I was very shocked by the facts presented about LA, does this mean that it is not safe even after chelating the loosely bound mercury for a period first?<< That is my concern. I would think that by having less mercury elsewhere to get pulled into circulation, that the risk would be less, but that again, IS what I am expressing concern about. Actually, my concern would be better phrased as: Is LA safe to use in our kids, at all, even after DMSA. I would like to see someone point me to an article or SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE that says differently, but NO ONE is responding. When I asked for someone to send me some resources, the forwarded post that I was responding to was all I got from Andy, who is supposedly the expert. (No one else responded.) There were NO resources listed, only his claims about LA's properties. I'd LOVE it if someone could show me something different, but I'm looking all over, and have several friends helping me look. All the other papers I have found on lipoic acid say it is merely an antioxidant and increases glutathione levels (however, glutathione is involved in mercury transport- some articles say that is a good thing, others say it's a bad thing). The confusion is how to safely raise glutathione, since the body needs it detoxify. I've talked with several professionals who have experience in this field. What I keep hearing is: Dr. Boyd Haley says that the safest way to raise glutathione levels is to give IV Vitamin C as this regenerates ones own glutathione (by converting oxidized glutathione into reduced glutathione- this is in the medical literature). Dr. Haley has carefully explained this to many of the doctors involved in the autism treatment issue. Dr. Boyd Haley's position is to use IV Vitamin C with the children, not DMSA or lipoic acid, according to the doctors I have communicated with who know Dr. Haley. Dr. Bickle also recommends IV Vitamin C, along with IV mineral replacement and IV glutathione (Dr. Quig says " It should be noted IV administration of GSH had protective effects on the brain Hg accumulation, but it cannot be assumed high doses of GSH administered orally would have the same beneficial effect, due to the potential for hydrolysis of GSH in the GI tract. " ). So, the glutathione issue (regarding how to replace appropriate levels) is still unclear. Since glutathione is involved in mercury transport, too much wouldn't be a good thing either. I need to read more on this issue. The Mercury Position Paper (rough draft?) that has been posted, states that people like me who are suggesting using caution regarding LA are misrepresenting the article in another way- that the article deals with the co-administration of " a toxic load " of mercury given with LA. YES, they did pour in mercury, but it was to see if the lipoic acid was PROTECTIVE, and if it ENHANCED the excretion of mercury. (It appears that the result would still be the same, just smaller amounts respectively, if a smaller dose had been used.) You can see in what I quoted, and what they found that, yes, it did cause some increased excretion, but only of the inorganic form, and only when (as far as I can see) the biliary function was normal- which as I pointed out, it isn't for our kids. Andy is claiming that the article says LA " chelates " mercury. The position paper says (specifically in regard to this article) " This is the opposite of what happens with chelation, where we administer lipoic acid with DMSA to carry this chelator to all potential mercury-binding sites. " There are NO papers I can find saying that lipoic acid and DMSA work together to get into the cell to pull mercury out. Again, I would love it if someone would show me something different. Here's something else to ponder. DMSA pulls mercury out of other organs, but it's ability to do so efficiently with the brain is questionable. When mercury is pulled out of the other organs it goes into the circulating blood before being excreted. So, where does all the mercury that is then in circulation go? I would think that mercury in circulation from the original exposure and mercury in circulation from chelation would respond the same. Hope this clarifies what I wrote. Ruth (RN), mom to , 16, autism/LKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2000 Report Share Posted November 4, 2000 Ruth, I would think the people who could give you the best answers on this are Andy Cutler, Dr. Amy and Dr. Cave. Unfortunately, Andy isn't on much and gives fairly short answers now, and Dr. Amy and Dr. are swamped. The reason I say this is Andy studied this extensively because he was mercury poisoned himself, and wanted to be careful to get this out of his own body. I don't know if you've gotten his book? Also, the last two docs studied all this and went to mercury toxicity conferences, talking to some of the best in the country, because Dr. Amy was dealing with her own son! In other words, neither of these people were going to take chances either!!! I think it's pretty obvious that they looked at all the possible chelators out there and their effectiveness and opted for the safest and best. It is an ongoing study for all of them, I believe. Barb Re: Fw:The Posting on LA > >Hello Ruth, > >I am a bit confused about the above post. Is this your response to > >Andy?>> > >Hi Celia, > >Thanks for asking for clarification. > >(This post is for the whole group to read.) > >Yes, it is my reply to Andy, but it is for EVERYONE to see. As far as I can >tell, this is the ONLY paper that says LA increases excretion of mercury, but >as you can see, that is NOT what the article really says. Many people are >claiming that those of us who are expressing concern over the use of LA are >misinterpreting the article and creating panic. That's not true. I have >extensively quoted the article to place what the article actually says in >front of the parents of this group. > >>>I was very shocked by the facts presented about LA, does this mean > >that it is not safe even after chelating the loosely bound mercury for > >a period first?<< > >That is my concern. I would think that by having less mercury elsewhere to >get pulled into circulation, that the risk would be less, but that again, IS >what I am expressing concern about. Actually, my concern would be better >phrased as: Is LA safe to use in our kids, at all, even after DMSA. I would >like to see someone point me to an article or SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE that says >differently, but NO ONE is responding. > >When I asked for someone to send me some resources, the forwarded post that I >was responding to was all I got from Andy, who is supposedly the expert. (No >one else responded.) There were NO resources listed, only his claims about >LA's properties. I'd LOVE it if someone could show me something different, >but I'm looking all over, and have several friends helping me look. All the >other papers I have found on lipoic acid say it is merely an antioxidant and >increases glutathione levels (however, glutathione is involved in mercury >transport- some articles say that is a good thing, others say it's a bad >thing). The confusion is how to safely raise glutathione, since the body >needs it detoxify. > >I've talked with several professionals who have experience in this field. >What I keep hearing is: Dr. Boyd Haley says that the safest way to raise >glutathione levels is to give IV Vitamin C as this regenerates ones own >glutathione (by converting oxidized glutathione into reduced glutathione- >this is in the medical literature). Dr. Haley has carefully explained this to >many of the doctors involved in the autism treatment issue. Dr. Boyd Haley's >position is to use IV Vitamin C with the children, not DMSA or lipoic acid, >according to the doctors I have communicated with who know Dr. Haley. > >Dr. Bickle also recommends IV Vitamin C, along with IV mineral replacement >and IV glutathione (Dr. Quig says " It should be noted IV administration of >GSH had protective effects on the brain Hg accumulation, but it cannot be >assumed high doses of GSH administered orally would have the same beneficial >effect, due to the potential for hydrolysis of GSH in the GI tract. " ). So, >the glutathione issue (regarding how to replace appropriate levels) is still >unclear. Since glutathione is involved in mercury transport, too much >wouldn't be a good thing either. I need to read more on this issue. > >The Mercury Position Paper (rough draft?) that has been posted, states that >people like me who are suggesting using caution regarding LA are >misrepresenting the article in another way- that the article deals with the >co-administration of " a toxic load " of mercury given with LA. YES, they did >pour in mercury, but it was to see if the lipoic acid was PROTECTIVE, and if >it ENHANCED the excretion of mercury. (It appears that the result would still >be the same, just smaller amounts respectively, if a smaller dose had been >used.) You can see in what I quoted, and what they found that, yes, it did >cause some increased excretion, but only of the inorganic form, and only when >(as far as I can see) the biliary function was normal- which as I pointed >out, it isn't for our kids. > >Andy is claiming that the article says LA " chelates " mercury. The position >paper says (specifically in regard to this article) " This is the opposite of >what happens with chelation, where we administer lipoic acid with DMSA to >carry this chelator to all potential mercury-binding sites. " There are NO >papers I can find saying that lipoic acid and DMSA work together to get into >the cell to pull mercury out. Again, I would love it if someone would show me >something different. > >Here's something else to ponder. DMSA pulls mercury out of other organs, but >it's ability to do so efficiently with the brain is questionable. When >mercury is pulled out of the other organs it goes into the circulating blood >before being excreted. So, where does all the mercury that is then in >circulation go? I would think that mercury in circulation from the original >exposure and mercury in circulation from chelation would respond the same. > >Hope this clarifies what I wrote. > > Ruth (RN), mom to , 16, >autism/LKS > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2000 Report Share Posted November 4, 2000 Dear Ruth R.N., Does IV Vitamin D chelate all toxic elements? what about the nutritional ones? And what dose? My daughter could not tolerate high doses - was this because it was stirring the metals around? Would a lower dose chelate? Why does it have to be administered IV? Thank you for your response! [ ] Re: Fw:The Posting on LA > > I've talked with several professionals who have experience in this > field. > > What I keep hearing is: Dr. Boyd Haley says that the safest way to > raise > > glutathione levels is to give IV Vitamin C as this regenerates ones > own > > glutathione (by converting oxidized glutathione into reduced > glutathione- > > this is in the medical literature). Dr. Haley has carefully > explained this to > > many of the doctors involved in the autism treatment issue. Dr. Boyd > Haley's > > position is to use IV Vitamin C with the children, not DMSA or > lipoic acid, > > according to the doctors I have communicated with who know Dr. > Haley. > > Ruth (RN), mom to > , 16, > > autism/LKS > > I have heard of this method elsewhere, and I'd love to hear from > anyone who has tried it with success. I may try it with my kids > since I know of a clinic opening near me that will use this method. > I think what we are going to eventually find out is there are > numerous ways to get the metals out. Only time and more research > will tell what is the best way. But clearly DMSA and LA are doing > *something* or people wouldn't be seeing gains and improvements from > chelation. I think Lang's advice is sound--all our kids are > individuals, proceed carefully, observe what is best for *your* > child, know when to slow down, or stop. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2000 Report Share Posted November 4, 2000 > I've talked with several professionals who have experience in this field. > What I keep hearing is: Dr. Boyd Haley says that the safest way to raise > glutathione levels is to give IV Vitamin C as this regenerates ones own > glutathione (by converting oxidized glutathione into reduced glutathione- > this is in the medical literature). Dr. Haley has carefully explained this to > many of the doctors involved in the autism treatment issue. Dr. Boyd Haley's > position is to use IV Vitamin C with the children, not DMSA or lipoic acid, > according to the doctors I have communicated with who know Dr. Haley. > Ruth (RN), mom to , 16, > autism/LKS I have heard of this method elsewhere, and I'd love to hear from anyone who has tried it with success. I may try it with my kids since I know of a clinic opening near me that will use this method. I think what we are going to eventually find out is there are numerous ways to get the metals out. Only time and more research will tell what is the best way. But clearly DMSA and LA are doing *something* or people wouldn't be seeing gains and improvements from chelation. I think Lang's advice is sound--all our kids are individuals, proceed carefully, observe what is best for *your* child, know when to slow down, or stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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