Re: (OT) Ron on Larry King Live Chrissie

[Guest guest]

I'm personally for universal health care because I know that the idea

of a population of lazy do-nothings who just want a free ride is

rather mythical. People work themselves sick-- and still have no

health coverage. It's not right.

Medicaid, as a program for people without a strong political voice or

clout, could be a great program for less money than is spent on it

now but it's been corrupted. The benefits of it are being eroded and

it's turning kids into guinea pigs for drug algorithms, as pharma

pays off government officials for control of prescribing practices.

For instance, the mental health screening program mandated for

children enrolled in Massachusetts Medicaid is just meant to foist

more psychotropic drugs on this population, to create life-long drug

comsumers and to bilk the taxpayer for it. We need a more even

playing field and programs that everyone has to care about equally.

Many have concerns about what would happen with increased government

control of health programs on the example of Medicaid, but that

concern is really about the problem of corruption, " regulatory

capture " -- meaning that industry now controls our regulatory agencies-

- and the revolving door between government and industry.

> > >

> > > http://www.dailypaul.com/node/20050

> > >

> > > Unfortunately, this man lost me when he said that people

should

> > not have a " right " to health care. I know, he explained

> that " charity "

> > may take care of these expenses for the less fortunate, but I

> doubt it

> > will work that well for working families who may incur fairly big

> > expenses, like some of ours do. Here in Canada, our " universal "

> health

> > care system could use some improvements, but it does take care of

> most

> > of the basics, which helps life be less stressful for families

with

> > several children. And, it is not exactly " free, " as all of us who

> are

> > working, pay into it, now even moreso than before.

> > >

> > > Aasa

> > > P.S., I still think our government here in Canada can put

> > healthcare dollars to better use by not providing a myriad of

> vaccines

> > for " free " , and instead using those dollars to beef up other

> services

> > which are found to be lacking.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes - the thing I see with universal health coverage (in US anyway) is that we will see forced vaccination under the guise/excuseof "we need to eliminate all possibility of unnecessary/unwanted/treatable childhood diseases." "Maybe in this mandatory vaccine program there will be less expense because of less disease."I believe Ron 's stand on healthcare is that everyone is entitled to that choice -- not entitled to healthcare. Healthcare choice means, if I want the alternative to chemo/radiation, I can go with taking a bottle of PolyMVA every week for three months to shrink my tumor. A bottle of PolyMVA is $185 vs. what does chemo/radiation cost these days and does little and

sometimes nothing for most people and kills their immune system.If UHC were what gradiose example it is in France, etc. that would be wonderful -- paying moms to stay home with their children and giving six months maternity leave prior to the birth..... bonding time for moms and not the stress of work and delivering a baby.Right now the only thing that is saving the mental health of some future generations in RUNNING this country is that l/3 of the population who does not vaccinate their children. With everything that has been made public in the past year (even five years), I am hoping that the percentage doubles in the next two years. Wow, the drug companies will go broke not having a population lining their pockets -- there will be healthy children in this country once again. Now if everyone would just see getting rid of toxic chemicals as a means of further insuring our good health AND create jobs to clean up the

mess made thus far, no jobs would have to be lost.Rox Re: (OT) Ron on Larry King Live Chrissie

I'm personally for universal health care because I know that the idea

of a population of lazy do-nothings who just want a free ride is

rather mythical. People work themselves sick-- and still have no

health coverage. It's not right.

Medicaid, as a program for people without a strong political voice or

clout, could be a great program for less money than is spent on it

now but it's been corrupted. The benefits of it are being eroded and

it's turning kids into guinea pigs for drug algorithms, as pharma

pays off government officials for control of prescribing practices.

For instance, the mental health screening program mandated for

children enrolled in Massachusetts Medicaid is just meant to foist

more psychotropic drugs on this population, to create life-long drug

comsumers and to bilk the taxpayer for it. We need a more even

playing field and programs that everyone has to care about equally.

Many have concerns about what would happen with increased government

control of health programs on the example of Medicaid, but that

concern is really about the problem of corruption, "regulatory

capture"-- meaning that industry now controls our regulatory agencies-

- and the revolving door between government and industry.

> > >

> > > http://www.dailypau l.com/node/ 20050

> > >

> > > Unfortunately, this man lost me when he said that people

should

> > not have a "right" to health care. I know, he explained

> that "charity"

> > may take care of these expenses for the less fortunate, but I

> doubt it

> > will work that well for working families who may incur fairly big

> > expenses, like some of ours do. Here in Canada, our "universal"

> health

> > care system could use some improvements, but it does take care of

> most

> > of the basics, which helps life be less stressful for families

with

> > several children. And, it is not exactly "free," as all of us who

> are

> > working, pay into it, now even moreso than before.

> > >

> > > Aasa

> > > P.S., I still think our government here in Canada can put

> > healthcare dollars to better use by not providing a myriad of

> vaccines

> > for "free", and instead using those dollars to beef up other

> services

> > which are found to be lacking.

> > >

> >

>

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

[Guest guest]

That is the thing I like about compared with the other candidates

-- he's about allowing America the original principle of choice.

Choice to succeed, choice to fail, choice to get rich, choice to be

poor. This right to choose our own destiny is what I love about my

country, and what I'm coming to dislike about the desire of others to

take from me.

> I believe Ron 's stand on healthcare is that everyone is

entitled to that choice -- not entitled to healthcare. Healthcare

choice means, if I want the alternative to chemo/radiation, I can go

with taking a bottle of PolyMVA every week for three months to shrink

my tumor. A bottle of PolyMVA is $185 vs. what does chemo/radiation

cost these days and does little and sometimes nothing for most people

and kills their immune system.

>

[Guest guest]

That is the thing I like about compared with the other candidates

-- he's about allowing America the original principle of choice.

Choice to succeed, choice to fail, choice to get rich, choice to be

poor. This right to choose our own destiny is what I love about my

country, and what I'm coming to dislike about the desire of others to

take from me.

> I believe Ron 's stand on healthcare is that everyone is

entitled to that choice -- not entitled to healthcare. Healthcare

choice means, if I want the alternative to chemo/radiation, I can go

with taking a bottle of PolyMVA every week for three months to shrink

my tumor. A bottle of PolyMVA is $185 vs. what does chemo/radiation

cost these days and does little and sometimes nothing for most people

and kills their immune system.

>

[Guest guest]

..

I do like the sentiment and wish it was as simple as that.

If we could all choose what we wanted. Would the islanders in the Bay of Bengal choose to have their islands submerged by rising sea levels due to the 'free ' choices of others in far away nations to drive , pollute and consume for decades/centuries?

Would we choose to see the penguins and polar bears go extinct because of climate change? The floods and fires and diseases that are on the increase because of 'free' choices. or should that be convenient choices, selfish choices,greedy choices, stupid choices..... Who gets to stop it all?

Do we get to choose our destiny now when the planet is half gone? how is it fair that you can choose and others all over the world cannot?

Ron sounds like an interesting chap but I find it hard to see how he is going to change the direction of this juggernaut.

Lets hope and pray that we can all choose better in the future!!!!!!!!!!

Ange

Re: (OT) Ron on Larry King Live Chrissie

That is the thing I like about compared with the other candidates-- he's about allowing America the original principle of choice.Choice to succeed, choice to fail, choice to get rich, choice to bepoor. This right to choose our own destiny is what I love about mycountry, and what I'm coming to dislike about the desire of others totake from me.> I believe Ron 's stand on healthcare is that everyone isentitled to that choice -- not entitled to healthcare. Healthcarechoice means, if I want the alternative to chemo/radiation, I can gowith taking a bottle of PolyMVA every week for three months to shrinkmy tumor. A bottle of PolyMVA is $185 vs. what does chemo/radiationcost these days and does little and sometimes nothing for most peopleand kills their immune system.>

[Guest guest]

..

I do like the sentiment and wish it was as simple as that.

If we could all choose what we wanted. Would the islanders in the Bay of Bengal choose to have their islands submerged by rising sea levels due to the 'free ' choices of others in far away nations to drive , pollute and consume for decades/centuries?

Would we choose to see the penguins and polar bears go extinct because of climate change? The floods and fires and diseases that are on the increase because of 'free' choices. or should that be convenient choices, selfish choices,greedy choices, stupid choices..... Who gets to stop it all?

Do we get to choose our destiny now when the planet is half gone? how is it fair that you can choose and others all over the world cannot?

Ron sounds like an interesting chap but I find it hard to see how he is going to change the direction of this juggernaut.

Lets hope and pray that we can all choose better in the future!!!!!!!!!!

Ange

Re: (OT) Ron on Larry King Live Chrissie

That is the thing I like about compared with the other candidates-- he's about allowing America the original principle of choice.Choice to succeed, choice to fail, choice to get rich, choice to bepoor. This right to choose our own destiny is what I love about mycountry, and what I'm coming to dislike about the desire of others totake from me.> I believe Ron 's stand on healthcare is that everyone isentitled to that choice -- not entitled to healthcare. Healthcarechoice means, if I want the alternative to chemo/radiation, I can gowith taking a bottle of PolyMVA every week for three months to shrinkmy tumor. A bottle of PolyMVA is $185 vs. what does chemo/radiationcost these days and does little and sometimes nothing for most peopleand kills their immune system.>

[Guest guest]

Well, I'm not one that believes we're all about to drown, but I know

that's not too popular a statement here, lol. That said, I do agree we

have pollution and need to be cleaner and do accept and support

reasonable laws to support cleaner living.

I think the problem before us, regardless of which side of the aisle

we are on is where to draw the line between them. The fact is we all

must live together and all have to deal with crap from each other.

We're all desperately wicked in our own ways, so to assume we're all

going to always do the right thing just isn't reasonable. The trick is

balancing holding accountability while not meshing on another's

freedom. I think the person who can answer that issue will be worth

way more than a Nobel prize.

Debi

>

> .

>

>

> I do like the sentiment and wish it was as simple as that.

>

> If we could all choose what we wanted. Would the islanders in the

Bay of Bengal choose to have their islands submerged by rising sea

levels due to the 'free ' choices of others in far away nations to

drive , pollute and consume for decades/centuries?

>

> Would we choose to see the penguins and polar bears go extinct

because of climate change? The floods and fires and diseases that are

on the increase because of 'free' choices. or should that be

convenient choices, selfish choices,greedy choices, stupid

choices..... Who gets to stop it all?

> Do we get to choose our destiny now when the planet is half gone?

how is it fair that you can choose and others all over the world cannot?

>

> Ron sounds like an interesting chap but I find it hard to see

how he is going to change the direction of this juggernaut.

>

> Lets hope and pray that we can all choose better in the future!!!!!!!!!!

>

>

> Ange

[Guest guest]

Well, I'm not one that believes we're all about to drown, but I know

that's not too popular a statement here, lol. That said, I do agree we

have pollution and need to be cleaner and do accept and support

reasonable laws to support cleaner living.

I think the problem before us, regardless of which side of the aisle

we are on is where to draw the line between them. The fact is we all

must live together and all have to deal with crap from each other.

We're all desperately wicked in our own ways, so to assume we're all

going to always do the right thing just isn't reasonable. The trick is

balancing holding accountability while not meshing on another's

freedom. I think the person who can answer that issue will be worth

way more than a Nobel prize.

Debi

>

> .

>

>

> I do like the sentiment and wish it was as simple as that.

>

> If we could all choose what we wanted. Would the islanders in the

Bay of Bengal choose to have their islands submerged by rising sea

levels due to the 'free ' choices of others in far away nations to

drive , pollute and consume for decades/centuries?

>

> Would we choose to see the penguins and polar bears go extinct

because of climate change? The floods and fires and diseases that are

on the increase because of 'free' choices. or should that be

convenient choices, selfish choices,greedy choices, stupid

choices..... Who gets to stop it all?

> Do we get to choose our destiny now when the planet is half gone?

how is it fair that you can choose and others all over the world cannot?

>

> Ron sounds like an interesting chap but I find it hard to see

how he is going to change the direction of this juggernaut.

>

> Lets hope and pray that we can all choose better in the future!!!!!!!!!!

>

>

> Ange

[Guest guest]

Trying sooooo hard to stay out of this

conversation but “Choice to be poor”???? This is not

something someone chooses. I’m not saying that there aren’t

people who take advantage of the system, there are, but real poor is not

something anyone would ever choose. I know how much you go through Debi

as I have read this list for almost 2 years and I totally respect you but we

definitely have some differing opinions on the poor, who they are, and just who

chooses this. Many of the poor are mentally ill, physically handicapped,

lacking skills or any way to get them, without us as active parents we might

possibly be talking about a child or teenager or adult with autism.

Actually more than likely we are talking about poor individuals that are on the

spectrum out on their own, we are also talking about injured veterans that mentally

went through the ringer in war and we just gave up on them. My father

adopted 6 children, one with CP one with HIV from birth, etc. He is poor

and always has been but he’s managed, gotten them what they needed, but I

can tell you there were a tremendous amount of children at each place they were

adopted from that were not able to be placed in homes. Much of the poor

population is children and I guess I’m still of the thought process that

it takes a village…..No disrespect but I could not help myself from disagreeing

with this aspect of the conversation…-

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Debi

Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008

3:43 PM

EOHarm

Subject: Re: (OT) Ron

on Larry King Live Chrissie

That is the thing I like about compared with the

other candidates

-- he's about allowing America

the original principle of choice.

Choice to succeed, choice to fail, choice to get rich, choice to be

poor. This right to choose our own destiny is what I love about my

country, and what I'm coming to dislike about the desire of others to

take from me.

> I believe Ron 's stand on healthcare is that everyone is

entitled to that choice -- not entitled to healthcare. Healthcare

choice means, if I want the alternative to chemo/radiation, I can go

with taking a bottle of PolyMVA every week for three months to shrink

my tumor. A bottle of PolyMVA is $185 vs. what does chemo/radiation

cost these days and does little and sometimes nothing for most people

and kills their immune system.

>

[Guest guest]

: I hear you. I am sad that this discussion is so difficult for some of our American listmates. It does not have to be an all or nothing situation. Most of us here in Canada, do not mind paying into a healthcare system which will at least take care of the basics for most of us, the unemployed and otherwise unfortunate included. Hell knows, some of us may have been in that situation at one time or another. Despite the shortcomings of our health system here in Canada, when it comes to getting to healthcare, most of the time we do get what is required, and many of us don't have too many complaints, unless it involves situations out of the ordinary. Aasa Chap 'n Ali <chapnalli@...> wrote: Trying sooooo hard to stay out of this conversation but “Choice to be poor”???? This is not something someone chooses. I’m not saying that there aren’t people who take advantage of the system, there are, but real poor is not something anyone would ever choose. I know how much you go through Debi as I have read this list for almost 2 years and I totally respect you but we definitely have some differing opinions on the poor, who they are, and just who chooses this. Many of the poor are mentally ill, physically handicapped, lacking skills or any way to get them, without

us as active parents we might possibly be talking about a child or teenager or adult with autism. Actually more than likely we are talking about poor individuals that are on the spectrum out on their own, we are also talking about injured veterans that mentally went through the ringer in war and we just gave up on them. My father adopted 6 children, one with CP one with HIV from birth, etc. He is poor and always has been but he’s managed, gotten them what they needed, but I can tell you there were a tremendous amount of children at each place they were adopted from that were not able to be placed in homes. Much of the poor population is children and I guess I’m still of the thought process that it takes a village…..No disrespect but I could not help myself from disagreeing with this aspect of the conversation…- From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of DebiSent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 3:43 PMEOHarm Subject: Re: (OT) Ron on Larry King Live Chrissie That is the thing I like about compared with the other candidates-- he's about allowing America the original principle of choice.Choice to succeed, choice to fail, choice to get rich, choice to bepoor. This right to choose our own destiny is what I love about mycountry, and what I'm coming to dislike about the desire of others totake from me.> I believe Ron 's stand on healthcare is that everyone isentitled to that choice -- not entitled to healthcare. Healthcarechoice means, if I want the alternative to chemo/radiation, I can

gowith taking a bottle of PolyMVA every week for three months to shrinkmy tumor. A bottle of PolyMVA is $185 vs. what does chemo/radiationcost these days and does little and sometimes nothing for most peopleand kills their immune system.>

[Guest guest]

I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I agree with

everything you said. I agree there are those who cannot care for

themselves, and those who truly cannot, need to be helped, especially

veterans. But when you meet a vet on the street, who is mentally ill,

who is offered help and repeatedly refuses it, despite you & I knowing

the help would be good for him/her, then should that person be forced

to be helped when he/she doesn't want the help? We have serious

problems with mental health in this nation and essentially, a person

has a right to be as crazy and as homeless as they want, unless they

are " a harm to self or others. " Of course, you and I would both agree

living on the street in 20 degree weather, getting so drunk one cannot

remember what happened, is harmful to self, but so is eating a Big Mac

or looking at porno. That's the reason mental health laws are a

problem, because who's opinion is it that rules over a person's right

or " choice " to continue to live that way.

Like the person said who is an ER nurse, a homeless addict comes into

the hospital to get a meal and a roof, then as soon as they sober up,

do they " choose " rehab? No, they more than likely " choose " to return.

And if a person goes through rehab they stand a 90% chance of

eventually " choosing " to go back to one's prior addiction habits.

People who have schizophrenia and other mental illness make choices

whether to continue to stay med compliant, to continue to seek

treatments, etc. Yes, I would be among the first to say their

illnesses make it sometimes impossible to know how to stay med

compliant, I don't know what the answer is, better treatment? Until

then, what?

I used to smoke 1 1/2 packs/daily for 8 yrs. I quit when I was preg

with Allie, that was nine years ago. Still haven't smoked. I still

want one like mad. I can only imagine how much worse the desire to

snort coke, shoot up herion, etc. But each day I make a choice not to

smoke again, though some days are harder than others. That's what I

mean when we have a choice. There's no one holding a gun to the head

of an addict, though it often feels like it. Those who have

successfully beaten addiction will tell you, it comes down to choice.

Someone who is completely unable to care for self, like someone with

severe CP, autism, quadriplegic, etc, of course are deserving of help,

as are addicts. But unfortunately, the vast majority of those " in the

system " are addicts and mentally ill. There are also those in the

system who can work, but don't. I don't know what the percentage of

them is, but I do know some personally. I know one guy who gets

disability who still does construction work under the table. He has

chronic health problems, when he's able to work, he does so, when he's

unable he depends on his savings & SSD. I don't know how to fix that

one, either. Employers need dependable people, but he also shouldn't

be getting paid when he can work.

I sure ain't saying I have the answers, I don't. But I also know the

government ain't gonna fix it, they ain't had nothing they've done

that has worked yet.

Debi

>

> Trying sooooo hard to stay out of this conversation but " Choice to be

> poor " ???? This is not something someone chooses. I'm not saying

that there

> aren't people who take advantage of the system, there are, but real

poor is

> not something anyone would ever choose. I know how much you go

through Debi

> as I have read this list for almost 2 years and I totally respect

you but we

> definitely have some differing opinions on the poor, who they are,

and just

> who chooses this. Many of the poor are mentally ill, physically

> handicapped, lacking skills or any way to get them, without us as active

> parents we might possibly be talking about a child or teenager or

adult with

> autism. Actually more than likely we are talking about poor individuals

> that are on the spectrum out on their own, we are also talking about

injured

> veterans that mentally went through the ringer in war and we just

gave up on

> them. My father adopted 6 children, one with CP one with HIV from

birth,

> etc. He is poor and always has been but he's managed, gotten them

what they

> needed, but I can tell you there were a tremendous amount of children at

> each place they were adopted from that were not able to be placed in

homes.

> Much of the poor population is children and I guess I'm still of the

thought

> process that it takes a village...No disrespect but I could not help

myself

> from disagreeing with this aspect of the conversation.-

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not against socialized healthcare for those who need it. I'm

against participating in government-forced healthcare. I'm very

grateful it's there for those who need it. I just don't want it forced

on me and my rights being taken away. I think that's a good

middle-of-the-road approach.

Does Canadian healthcare force all kids to be immunized? I can see

that one coming a mile away here in the US. I think someone has

already said that WIC will not be given to those who do not immunize

their kids.

Debi

>

> :

> I hear you. I am sad that this discussion is so difficult for some

of our American listmates. It does not have to be an all or nothing

situation. Most of us here in Canada, do not mind paying into a

healthcare system which will at least take care of the basics for most

of us, the unemployed and otherwise unfortunate included. Hell knows,

some of us may have been in that situation at one time or another.

Despite the shortcomings of our health system here in Canada, when it

comes to getting to healthcare, most of the time we do get what is

required, and many of us don't have too many complaints, unless it

involves situations out of the ordinary.

>

> Aasa

[Guest guest]

Sorry, had to ask, to break up the

seriousness…..Watching a porno is harmful to your health??

And on the serious side, but why are these

veterans drunk on the street? We sent them off to war and never took the

steps necessary to bring them mentally and physically back productively into society.

I think most of our opinions are shaped by our experiences and those who we

model our behavior after (I can only hope to be like my father and my

Grandmother), my experiences have shown me you help but don’t need the

proof it was necessary to do so. It’s my actions that are

important, not theirs.

Peace! I’m headed back

to finish watching the debate, just said something that made me stand

up and clap. “It has to be personal, inside here (pounding on his

chest), in order for you to follow through against the big

corporations/pharmaceutical companies and lobbyists in order to really affect

change”. Really great statement!

-

From: EOHarm [mailto:EOHarm ] On Behalf Of Debi

Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008

9:39 PM

EOHarm

Subject: Re: (OT) Ron

on Larry King Live Chrissie

I don't think we disagree as much as you think. I

agree with

everything you said. I agree there are those who cannot care for

themselves, and those who truly cannot, need to be helped, especially

veterans. But when you meet a vet on the street, who is mentally ill,

who is offered help and repeatedly refuses it, despite you & I knowing

the help would be good for him/her, then should that person be forced

to be helped when he/she doesn't want the help? We have serious

problems with mental health in this nation and essentially, a person

has a right to be as crazy and as homeless as they want, unless they

are " a harm to self or others. " Of course, you and I would both agree

living on the street in 20 degree weather, getting so drunk one cannot

remember what happened, is harmful to self, but so is eating a Big Mac

or looking at porno. That's the reason mental health laws are a

problem, because who's opinion is it that rules over a person's right

or " choice " to continue to live that way.

Like the person said who is an ER nurse, a homeless addict comes into

the hospital to get a meal and a roof, then as soon as they sober up,

do they " choose " rehab? No, they more than likely " choose "

to return.

And if a person goes through rehab they stand a 90% chance of

eventually " choosing " to go back to one's prior addiction habits.

People who have schizophrenia and other mental illness make choices

whether to continue to stay med compliant, to continue to seek

treatments, etc. Yes, I would be among the first to say their

illnesses make it sometimes impossible to know how to stay med

compliant, I don't know what the answer is, better treatment? Until

then, what?

I used to smoke 1 1/2 packs/daily for 8 yrs. I quit when I was preg

with Allie, that was nine years ago. Still haven't smoked. I still

want one like mad. I can only imagine how much worse the desire to

snort coke, shoot up herion, etc. But each day I make a choice not to

smoke again, though some days are harder than others. That's what I

mean when we have a choice. There's no one holding a gun to the head

of an addict, though it often feels like it. Those who have

successfully beaten addiction will tell you, it comes down to choice.

Someone who is completely unable to care for self, like someone with

severe CP, autism, quadriplegic, etc, of course are deserving of help,

as are addicts. But unfortunately, the vast majority of those " in the

system " are addicts and mentally ill. There are also those in the

system who can work, but don't. I don't know what the percentage of

them is, but I do know some personally. I know one guy who gets

disability who still does construction work under the table. He has

chronic health problems, when he's able to work, he does so, when he's

unable he depends on his savings & SSD. I don't know how to fix that

one, either. Employers need dependable people, but he also shouldn't

be getting paid when he can work.

I sure ain't saying I have the answers, I don't. But I also know the

government ain't gonna fix it, they ain't had nothing they've done

that has worked yet.

Debi

>

> Trying sooooo hard to stay out of this conversation but " Choice to be

> poor " ???? This is not something someone chooses. I'm not saying

that there

> aren't people who take advantage of the system, there are, but real

poor is

> not something anyone would ever choose. I know how much you go

through Debi

> as I have read this list for almost 2 years and I totally respect

you but we

> definitely have some differing opinions on the poor, who they are,

and just

> who chooses this. Many of the poor are mentally ill, physically

> handicapped, lacking skills or any way to get them, without us as active

> parents we might possibly be talking about a child or teenager or

adult with

> autism. Actually more than likely we are talking about poor individuals

> that are on the spectrum out on their own, we are also talking about

injured

> veterans that mentally went through the ringer in war and we just

gave up on

> them. My father adopted 6 children, one with CP one with HIV from

birth,

> etc. He is poor and always has been but he's managed, gotten them

what they

> needed, but I can tell you there were a tremendous amount of children at

> each place they were adopted from that were not able to be placed in

homes.

> Much of the poor population is children and I guess I'm still of the

thought

> process that it takes a village...No disrespect but I could not help

myself

> from disagreeing with this aspect of the conversation.-

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You are too funny! I totally agree, we need to do all we can to ensure

these veterans get all the mental health help they need. But at the

same time, as one in need of mental health assistance through the

years, the veterans have to want the help. It's hard asking for help.

We can bring the horse to water...

Have fun with the debate, I didn't even know one was on, shows my

excitement of this round of candidates....

Debi

>

> Sorry, had to ask, to break up the seriousness...Watching a porno is

harmful

> to your health??

>

>

>

> And on the serious side, but why are these veterans drunk on the

street? We

> sent them off to war and never took the steps necessary to bring them

> mentally and physically back productively into society. I think

most of our

> opinions are shaped by our experiences and those who we model our

behavior

> after (I can only hope to be like my father and my Grandmother), my

> experiences have shown me you help but don't need the proof it was

necessary

> to do so. It's my actions that are important, not theirs.

>

>

>

> Peace! I'm headed back to finish watching the debate, just

said

> something that made me stand up and clap. " It has to be personal,

inside

> here (pounding on his chest), in order for you to follow through

against the

> big corporations/pharmaceutical companies and lobbyists in order to

really

> affect change " . Really great statement!

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Debi asked: Does Canadian healthcare force all kids to be immunized? No, in Canada we can get exemptions, although that fact is not widely "advertised". When school officials tell parents that their children are suspended unless/until they can show proof of vaccination, parents are not usually informed of the exemption option and are not told where they can go to obtain the forms. My kids have not had any more vaccines for 4-5 years now, although several have been offerred at school and through our public "health" department. Aasa Debi <fightingautism@...> wrote: I'm not against socialized healthcare for those who need it. I'magainst participating in government-forced healthcare. I'm verygrateful it's there for those who need it. I just don't want it forcedon me and my rights being taken away. I think that's a goodmiddle-of-the-road approach.Does Canadian healthcare force all kids to be immunized? I can seethat one coming a mile away here in the US. I think someone hasalready said that WIC will not be given to those who do not immunizetheir kids.Debi>> :> I hear you. I am sad that this discussion is so difficult for someof our American listmates. It does not have to be an all or nothingsituation. Most of us here

in Canada, do not mind paying into ahealthcare system which will at least take care of the basics for mostof us, the unemployed and otherwise unfortunate included. Hell knows,some of us may have been in that situation at one time or another.Despite the shortcomings of our health system here in Canada, when itcomes to getting to healthcare, most of the time we do get what isrequired, and many of us don't have too many complaints, unless itinvolves situations out of the ordinary.> > Aasa

[Guest guest]

My husband has a friend who also scams the system that drives me crazy

and what can you do? He won a very large lawsuit settlement 2 years ago

for a car accident, one of the biggest ever here on Long Island, of 5

million dollars. He got 2 million up front and gets $15,000 every month

for LIFE! Due to the accident he has some neck problems that required a

metal plate be placed to protect his spine be he is still very abled

bodied (oh he pretended during the case that he was severely disabled)

He gets 100% medicaid for life and gets a SSD check every month despite

the fact that he is rich beyond his immagination. WHY?!?!?!?! He does

not need this money but he takes and takes what ever our gov't throws

at him. He bought a condo in Aruba and flies there several times a

year. If he can manage to get to the airport, get on a plane, sit for 6

hours and then claim his luggage WHY CAN'T HE GET A JOB AND CONTRIBUTE

TO SOCIETY??? WHY, because he doesn't have to. He is set and I am

struggling.

I have an aunt who is mentally ill and recently had major back surgery

and she can't get on SSD or Medicaid who desperatly needs the help and

she is denied over and over.

When my mother was divorced and desperate for cash when my sister and I

were young she was on Welfare for a short time but some of the people

she waited in line with were life time recipients of Welfare and knew

how to scam that system, They would give my mom tips on how to stay on

longer like having more babies (of course now it is harder to be

a " lifer " on Welfare like it was in the '70's but there are still loop-

holes to every system)

But returning to the original posters questioning about RP not

supporting UHC what Ron is saying is let the STATES handle these

issues and NOT the FEDERAL Gov't. The less the Federal gov't is

involved in my life the better for us all. I don't want to have 50% or

more of my taxes going to fund these Federal programs. I would rather

keep more in my pocket and buy my own insurance and basically spend my

money as I need to. I agree with this theory and believe it can work

better then what we have now.

Tina

There are also those in the

> system who can work, but don't. I don't know what the percentage of

> them is, but I do know some personally. I know one guy who gets

> disability who still does construction work under the table. He has

> chronic health problems, when he's able to work, he does so, when he's

> unable he depends on his savings & SSD. I don't know how to fix that

> one, either. Employers need dependable people, but he also shouldn't

> be getting paid when he can work.

>

> I sure ain't saying I have the answers, I don't. But I also know the

> government ain't gonna fix it, they ain't had nothing they've done

> that has worked yet.

>

> Debi

[Guest guest]

The " therapy " for PTSD is mostly drugs now, so I'm not surprised that

many veterans are avoiding it. Check out the reports on veterans

going postal on SSRIstories.com and it's understandable. PTSD in

particular responds poorly to medication, apparently.

My father's a WWII veteran, injured at Anzio. He was shellshocked,

saw most of the men (boys) in his unit killed. When he was brought

back he received some pretty novel psychotherapy along with physical

rehabilitation. The thing about PTSD is that survival depends upon

detecting dishonesty and shams and it's hard to trick someone who's

been through that level of experience, so I can only imagine how

today's veterans are responding to lousy therapy. My dad had nothing

bad to say about the therapist he worked with in the forties, which

is actually kind of unusual.

To date, he doesn't drink more than glass of wine twice a year,

generally even refuses painkillers and dislikes mind-altering

substances in general. This and he was raised as a street kid in

Manhattan and his entire family died of alcoholism. He went on to

attend one of the best art schools in the country.

What he managed to overcome in his life is statistically almost

impossible, but from what I can figure it wouldn't be a gross

oversimplification to say that his path of recovery from trauma

follows the stages noted for survivors of the death camps in Europe.

It sounds corny but he seems to have channeled the experience into a

passion for human rights. That's what we talked about at the dinner

table growing up in any case. This was apparently encouraged in the

therapy he received through the VA. I have the sense that humanistic

delving doesn't happen much anymore in sanctioned therapy-- I don't

think it's the party line.

My dad fully supports the idea of universal health care, by the way

and he also had no trouble believing that vaccines could cause autism

and other horrors.

For anyone interested in the nitty gritty of PTSD, there's a great

book with a slew of great research citations and essays which I've

recommended before. It costs a fortune to buy but can be ordered

throught he library: M. Ochberg's " Posttraumatic Stress Therapy

and Victims of Violence " .

> >

> > Sorry, had to ask, to break up the seriousness...Watching a porno

is

> harmful

> > to your health??

> >

> >

> >

> > And on the serious side, but why are these veterans drunk on the

> street? We

> > sent them off to war and never took the steps necessary to bring

them

> > mentally and physically back productively into society. I think

> most of our

> > opinions are shaped by our experiences and those who we model our

> behavior

> > after (I can only hope to be like my father and my Grandmother),

my

> > experiences have shown me you help but don't need the proof it was

> necessary

> > to do so. It's my actions that are important, not theirs.

> >

> >

> >

> > Peace! I'm headed back to finish watching the debate,

just

> said

> > something that made me stand up and clap. " It has to be personal,

> inside

> > here (pounding on his chest), in order for you to follow through

> against the

> > big corporations/pharmaceutical companies and lobbyists in order

to

> really

> > affect change " . Really great statement!

> >

> > -

>