Re: [EOHarm) Nora

[Guest guest]

Thank you Nora. I would love to read that book and pass it along to a community who is so inundated with autism/geneticresearch so they finally "get it." Where can I get a copy? TIARox Re: Re:Debi/Nora G./ Anacat: pbs/bi polar..

I would like to post your email exchange on this subject to a parent in my community who does not understand this. They have a child with Bi-polar and one with autism diagnosis. As you can see, I have omitted your names/email addresses, but I need your permission to forward (will omit your names/addresses there as well). Thanks RoxTHIRD PARENT EMAIL:

If there was a genetic component to mental illness, they'd have found it by now. They've aimed billions, all the big research guns and over a hundred years of trying to find this elusive genetic link. To no avail. All they discovered was the same mechanisms that our science discovered for autism may also effect schizophrenia: a combo of metals and viruses (Bernie Devlin found a link between schizophrenia and CMV). All anyone could ever determine was that mental illness is environmental, whether this meant "emotional environment" or "environmental toxins" or a combination. I think our realm has probably made one of the greatest contributions to mental health science by broadening the understanding that susceptibility to toxins may run in families. Otherwise, family behavior can be perpetuated to ruin generation after generation and it's not necessarily the impact of toxins or susceptibility genes which cause this, though that would not help. And then there are simply cases of an individual breaking down from early trauma which doesn't originate from aggression within the family of origin (stranger rape or assault from someone outside the family. Witnessing a death or atrocity. Loss of a sibling, watching someone die from an illness) and "passing on" this unprocessed trauma to subsequent generations. This is why recognizing PTSD is so important, but in past generations, the response was to insist someone just "get over it" or deny it. If they cracked and entered the mental health system, then their troubles really began. Domestic violence still effects fifty percent of women at at least one point in their lives. This is an historically stable figure, though in societies which "accept" this and don't regard it as a crime (Korea in the past), the rate can be much higher. 50% of children are sexually abused between 3 and 18, mostly by people they know. We don't NEED toxins to disrupt people's health and lives, but add this to the mix and the deck is stacked against some. Furthermore, antidepessants have been around since 1959, which is the exact moment when "bipolar disorder"-- then known as manic depression-- skyrocketed. Previous to this, most cases of mental illness were "unipolar". Antidepressants have long been known to trigger mania, particularly when a dose is changed or withdrawn, though it develops gradually while someone is on the medications. Who knows what could have happened? It's not impossible that your grandmother is the key to your family's metal sensitivity. Or she may have started out by lashing out at real social circumstances and ended up nuts from drugs, punitive therapy (for a history of how "great" therapy was for women, read "For Their Own Good" and "The Yellow Wall Paper") and stigmatization. SECOND PARENT EMAIL:>> Here's what I wonder about mental health disorders, like bipolar,> schizophrenia, the big, mind-altering, hallucinogenic, paranoia mental> health disorders. My SIL's mother, who would have been about 80 at> this point, had various diagnoses throughout her life. Essentially,> she would go off on these crazy episodes that would land her in the> funny farm. They'd drug her up, but she would be "normal" in her mind.> Then, over a couple of years she would slowly stop taking her meds,> then cycle over & over. I saw one of the last ones. She was dxed from> bipolar to paranoid schizophrenic. She never did street drugs that any> of us are aware. > > Her bizarre behaviors included chasing her youngest daughter with a> butcher knife to kill her, cleaning out all the furniture from the> room to leave only a rocking chair where she sat until her middle> daughter came home to tell her the make-up Clairol stold her identity> (her name was Clara) and she was gonna sue; playing all her old 45s> and deciding her grandson in high school wasn't taught enough "good"> music & told her daughter she was going to take all of the music to> the school so the yung'ens could learn, screaming it, running up> credit cards that she just got so she could buy a bicycle for every> single kid she knew, when the Walmart manager asked her why she was> buying so many bicycles she screamed & cussed him out & called> everyone over him. > > On mental health drugs, like risperdal, she was great. Calm but not> drugged, happy, but not stupid silly, had mental clarity, etc. She> also took others with seemingly good effects, though I'm sure she had> side effects at times, who couldn't. Off them, she was simply nuts. > > She had 3 daughters, one ( of which I'm convinced is nuts for a> variety of reasons, and one of her ( 3 daughters struggles with> mental health issues, too. > > I guess my thought is, she didn't have microwave ovens, she didn't eat> processed foods out the wazzoo. She was like this from a teenager, if> not before. It is possible something happened in her childhood, I> dunno. But it's also obvious there has been some genetic component. > > Any thoughts on cases like this?> > Debi> FIRST PARENT EMAIL:> >> > I just finished watching the psychiatric elephant program,on PBS-> Frontline (as in 3 blind men and the elephant), totally sickening. > They act as if the brain scans were not connected to the head bone,> the neck bone, the mouth, the throat the stomach, the intestinal> tract, the microwaved food (hotdog on a stick , heated in...) the gmo> foods, artificial flavorings, stabilizers, hormoned milks, home> cleaning products, wrong- wave lighting(see Ott's full spectrum> light work),no exercise, playing to get worn out and tired. > > MUCH LESS, acknowledge the pediatric pharmacy formulas for sticking> nasty ingredients (mercury, lead, aluminum, additives that I don't> remember the names of..) vaccines, mercury amalgams...> > Only scan the brain, read the map...have no ideas about what went> developmentally and environmentally in the body to make the affects> they are hunting for to be IN the Brain?! The map is not the> territory! argh...> > Having personally suffered two kids to the temple of psychiatry and> gotten them out and off of drugs (with much sturm und drung) I feel> quite entitled to express this observation. It is not just the kids,> it's the care takers also. And years out of our lives dealing with> their misconstrued concepts, exasperating. ..ng> >>

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[Guest guest]

His ( Gilbert Gottlieb) books are available through University libraries or www.ErlbaumPress.com., maybe Amazon , or Google more book stores. Thanks for your interest. Nora G

Re: Re:Debi/Nora G./ Anacat: pbs/bi polar..

I would like to post your email exchange on this subject to a parent in my community who does not understand this. They have a child with Bi-polar and one with autism diagnosis. As you can see, I have omitted your names/email addresses, but I need your permission to forward (will omit your names/addresses there as well). Thanks RoxTHIRD PARENT EMAIL:

If there was a genetic component to mental illness, they'd have found it by now. They've aimed billions, all the big research guns and over a hundred years of trying to find this elusive genetic link. To no avail. All they discovered was the same mechanisms that our science discovered for autism may also effect schizophrenia: a combo of metals and viruses (Bernie Devlin found a link between schizophrenia and CMV). All anyone could ever determine was that mental illness is environmental, whether this meant "emotional environment" or "environmental toxins" or a combination. I think our realm has probably made one of the greatest contributions to mental health science by broadening the understanding that susceptibility to toxins may run in families. Otherwise, family behavior can be perpetuated to ruin generation after generation and it's not necessarily the impact of toxins or susceptibility genes which cause this, though that would not help. And then there are simply cases of an individual breaking down from early trauma which doesn't originate from aggression within the family of origin (stranger rape or assault from someone outside the family. Witnessing a death or atrocity. Loss of a sibling, watching someone die from an illness) and "passing on" this unprocessed trauma to subsequent generations. This is why recognizing PTSD is so important, but in past generations, the response was to insist someone just "get over it" or deny it. If they cracked and entered the mental health system, then their troubles really began. Domestic violence still effects fifty percent of women at at least one point in their lives. This is an historically stable figure, though in societies which "accept" this and don't regard it as a crime (Korea in the past), the rate can be much higher. 50% of children are sexually abused between 3 and 18, mostly by people they know. We don't NEED toxins to disrupt people's health and lives, but add this to the mix and the deck is stacked against some. Furthermore, antidepessants have been around since 1959, which is the exact moment when "bipolar disorder"-- then known as manic depression-- skyrocketed. Previous to this, most cases of mental illness were "unipolar". Antidepressants have long been known to trigger mania, particularly when a dose is changed or withdrawn, though it develops gradually while someone is on the medications. Who knows what could have happened? It's not impossible that your grandmother is the key to your family's metal sensitivity. Or she may have started out by lashing out at real social circumstances and ended up nuts from drugs, punitive therapy (for a history of how "great" therapy was for women, read "For Their Own Good" and "The Yellow Wall Paper") and stigmatization. SECOND PARENT EMAIL:>> Here's what I wonder about mental health disorders, like bipolar,> schizophrenia, the big, mind-altering, hallucinogenic, paranoia mental> health disorders. My SIL's mother, who would have been about 80 at> this point, had various diagnoses throughout her life. Essentially,> she would go off on these crazy episodes that would land her in the> funny farm. They'd drug her up, but she would be "normal" in her mind.> Then, over a couple of years she would slowly stop taking her meds,> then cycle over & over. I saw one of the last ones. She was dxed from> bipolar to paranoid schizophrenic. She never did street drugs that any> of us are aware. > > Her bizarre behaviors included chasing her youngest daughter with a> butcher knife to kill her, cleaning out all the furniture from the> room to leave only a rocking chair where she sat until her middle> daughter came home to tell her the make-up Clairol stold her identity> (her name was Clara) and she was gonna sue; playing all her old 45s> and deciding her grandson in high school wasn't taught enough "good"> music & told her daughter she was going to take all of the music to> the school so the yung'ens could learn, screaming it, running up> credit cards that she just got so she could buy a bicycle for every> single kid she knew, when the Walmart manager asked her why she was> buying so many bicycles she screamed & cussed him out & called> everyone over him. > > On mental health drugs, like risperdal, she was great. Calm but not> drugged, happy, but not stupid silly, had mental clarity, etc. She> also took others with seemingly good effects, though I'm sure she had> side effects at times, who couldn't. Off them, she was simply nuts. > > She had 3 daughters, one ( of which I'm convinced is nuts for a> variety of reasons, and one of her ( 3 daughters struggles with> mental health issues, too. > > I guess my thought is, she didn't have microwave ovens, she didn't eat> processed foods out the wazzoo. She was like this from a teenager, if> not before. It is possible something happened in her childhood, I> dunno. But it's also obvious there has been some genetic component. > > Any thoughts on cases like this?> > Debi> FIRST PARENT EMAIL:> >> > I just finished watching the psychiatric elephant program,on PBS-> Frontline (as in 3 blind men and the elephant), totally sickening. > They act as if the brain scans were not connected to the head bone,> the neck bone, the mouth, the throat the stomach, the intestinal> tract, the microwaved food (hotdog on a stick , heated in...) the gmo> foods, artificial flavorings, stabilizers, hormoned milks, home> cleaning products, wrong- wave lighting(see Ott's full spectrum> light work),no exercise, playing to get worn out and tired. > > MUCH LESS, acknowledge the pediatric pharmacy formulas for sticking> nasty ingredients (mercury, lead, aluminum, additives that I don't> remember the names of..) vaccines, mercury amalgams...> > Only scan the brain, read the map...have no ideas about what went> developmentally and environmentally in the body to make the affects> they are hunting for to be IN the Brain?! The map is not the> territory! argh...> > Having personally suffered two kids to the temple of psychiatry and> gotten them out and off of drugs (with much sturm und drung) I feel> quite entitled to express this observation. It is not just the kids,> it's the care takers also. And years out of our lives dealing with> their misconstrued concepts, exasperating. ..ng> >>

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[Guest guest]

Nora, I would be interested in reading more about your husband's research too. It seems quite plausible that many of these so-called genetic mutations could actually be epigenetic changes that occurred due to various environmental effects. As far as vaccines have been studied, I don't see many, if any vaccines (for that matter), which have been evaluated for their potential to cause genotoxicity and mutagenicity (nevermind carcinogenicity). If vaccines are being approved without being evaluated for their potential to cause genotoxicity, how can anyone nowadays look at genetic or mutagenic changes, and discount the possibility that vaccines or their ingredients may have caused some of these changes? I don't think that would be possible, logically or realistically. Lately, whenever I read that such-and-such a gene or chromosome has been implicated in ASD, I feel the need to research how various

forms of mercury, or other heavy metals or environmental toxins may have affected those genes or chromosomes. None of us have good answers to these questions, if vaccines typically are not being evaluated for potentially serious longterm effects, like the potential to cause carcinogenicity, genotoxicity, mutagenicity, and often the ability/potential to impair fertility. I don't know who (was it WHO?) exactly OK'd for vaccines to be approved without being evaluated in the longterm, but this whole scenario stinks, and it creates a niche for other studies to find a spot for supposed "genetic studies", when they should be referring to epigenetic changes/studies. Aasa Nora Gottlieb <nwgott@...> wrote: His ( Gilbert Gottlieb) books are available through University libraries or www.ErlbaumPress.com., maybe Amazon , or Google more book stores. Thanks for your interest. Nora G Re: Re:Debi/Nora G./ Anacat: pbs/bi polar.. I would like to post your email exchange on this subject to a parent in my community who does not understand this. They have a child with Bi-polar and one with autism diagnosis. As you can see, I have omitted your names/email addresses, but I need your permission to forward (will omit your names/addresses there as well). Thanks RoxTHIRD PARENT EMAIL: If there was a genetic component to mental illness, they'd have found it by now. They've aimed billions, all the big research guns and over a hundred years of trying to find this elusive genetic link. To no avail. All they discovered was the same mechanisms that our science discovered for autism may also effect schizophrenia: a combo of metals and

viruses (Bernie Devlin found a link between schizophrenia and CMV). All anyone could ever determine was that mental illness is environmental, whether this meant "emotional environment" or "environmental toxins" or a combination. I think our realm has probably made one of the greatest contributions to mental health science by broadening the understanding that susceptibility to toxins may run in families. Otherwise, family behavior can be perpetuated to ruin generation after generation and it's not necessarily the impact of toxins or susceptibility genes which cause this, though that would not help. And then there are simply cases of an individual breaking down from early trauma which doesn't originate from aggression within the family of origin (stranger rape or assault from someone outside the family. Witnessing a death or atrocity. Loss of a sibling, watching someone die from an illness) and "passing on" this

unprocessed trauma to subsequent generations. This is why recognizing PTSD is so important, but in past generations, the response was to insist someone just "get over it" or deny it. If they cracked and entered the mental health system, then their troubles really began. Domestic violence still effects fifty percent of women at at least one point in their lives. This is an historically stable figure, though in societies which "accept" this and don't regard it as a crime (Korea in the past), the rate can be much higher. 50% of children are sexually abused between 3 and 18, mostly by people they know. We don't NEED toxins to disrupt people's health and lives, but add this to the mix and the deck is stacked against some. Furthermore, antidepessants have been around since 1959, which is the exact moment when "bipolar disorder"-- then known as manic depression-- skyrocketed. Previous to this, most cases of mental

illness were "unipolar". Antidepressants have long been known to trigger mania, particularly when a dose is changed or withdrawn, though it develops gradually while someone is on the medications. Who knows what could have happened? It's not impossible that your grandmother is the key to your family's metal sensitivity. Or she may have started out by lashing out at real social circumstances and ended up nuts from drugs, punitive therapy (for a history of how "great" therapy was for women, read "For Their Own Good" and "The Yellow Wall Paper") and stigmatization. SECOND PARENT EMAIL:>> Here's what I wonder about mental health disorders, like bipolar,> schizophrenia, the big, mind-altering, hallucinogenic, paranoia mental> health disorders. My SIL's mother, who would have been about 80 at> this point, had various diagnoses throughout her life. Essentially,> she would go off on these

crazy episodes that would land her in the> funny farm. They'd drug her up, but she would be "normal" in her mind.> Then, over a couple of years she would slowly stop taking her meds,> then cycle over & over. I saw one of the last ones. She was dxed from> bipolar to paranoid schizophrenic. She never did street drugs that any> of us are aware. > > Her bizarre behaviors included chasing her youngest daughter with a> butcher knife to kill her, cleaning out all the furniture from the> room to leave only a rocking chair where she sat until her middle> daughter came home to tell her the make-up Clairol stold her identity> (her name was Clara) and she was gonna sue; playing all her old 45s> and deciding her grandson in high school wasn't taught enough "good"> music & told her daughter she was going to take all of the music to> the school so the yung'ens could

learn, screaming it, running up> credit cards that she just got so she could buy a bicycle for every> single kid she knew, when the Walmart manager asked her why she was> buying so many bicycles she screamed & cussed him out & called> everyone over him. > > On mental health drugs, like risperdal, she was great. Calm but not> drugged, happy, but not stupid silly, had mental clarity, etc. She> also took others with seemingly good effects, though I'm sure she had> side effects at times, who couldn't. Off them, she was simply nuts. > > She had 3 daughters, one ( of which I'm convinced is nuts for a> variety of reasons, and one of her ( 3 daughters struggles with> mental health issues, too. > > I guess my thought is, she didn't have microwave ovens, she didn't eat> processed foods out the wazzoo. She was like this from a teenager, if>

not before. It is possible something happened in her childhood, I> dunno. But it's also obvious there has been some genetic component. > > Any thoughts on cases like this?> > Debi> FIRST PARENT EMAIL:> >> > I just finished watching the psychiatric elephant program,on PBS-> Frontline (as in 3 blind men and the elephant), totally sickening. > They act as if the brain scans were not connected to the head bone,> the neck bone, the mouth, the throat the stomach, the intestinal> tract, the microwaved food (hotdog on a stick , heated in...) the gmo> foods, artificial flavorings, stabilizers, hormoned milks, home> cleaning products, wrong- wave lighting(see Ott's full spectrum> light work),no exercise, playing to get worn out and tired. > > MUCH LESS, acknowledge the pediatric pharmacy formulas for sticking> nasty ingredients

(mercury, lead, aluminum, additives that I don't> remember the names of..) vaccines, mercury amalgams...> > Only scan the brain, read the map...have no ideas about what went> developmentally and environmentally in the body to make the affects> they are hunting for to be IN the Brain?! The map is not the> territory! argh...> > Having personally suffered two kids to the temple of psychiatry and> gotten them out and off of drugs (with much sturm und drung) I feel> quite entitled to express this observation. It is not just the kids,> it's the care takers also. And years out of our lives dealing with> their misconstrued concepts, exasperating. ..ng> >> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Aasa, I think you've got the idea.

The last place GG worked was the Center for Development Science, UNC Chapel Hill, NC. I just received a copy from Cambridge Press, of Human Development in the Twenty-First Century, visionary ideas from systems scientists. Edited by Alan Fogel, Barbara J.King, and Stuart G. Shanker.

Dr CarolynTucker Halpern and my husband Gilbert Gottlieb have a chapter in here, titled Individual development as a system of coactions: implecations for research and policy, Chapter 4, page 41, in the book.

Dr Halpern could give you more information. When it gets down to technical *group speak* I'd rather let you speak to the professionals. I don't want to mis-quote!

GG has a very nice grid to illustrate his points in this chapter.

The email for the Center is devsci@....

Some of the slides for his talks,you would really like, as the identicle twins raised apart in England, as adults their photo taken side by side one was small and subdued, the other much taller and out going. One had a happy childhood the other was mistreated. You can guess which was which!

Hope this helps, do google his name, he's done quite a lot of really good science.(and I was his un -paid helper...) Nora G ps another book is still in the works...

Re: Re:Debi/Nora G./ Anacat: pbs/bi polar..

I would like to post your email exchange on this subject to a parent in my community who does not understand this. They have a child with Bi-polar and one with autism diagnosis. As you can see, I have omitted your names/email addresses, but I need your permission to forward (will omit your names/addresses there as well). Thanks RoxTHIRD PARENT EMAIL:

If there was a genetic component to mental illness, they'd have found it by now. They've aimed billions, all the big research guns and over a hundred years of trying to find this elusive genetic link. To no avail. All they discovered was the same mechanisms that our science discovered for autism may also effect schizophrenia: a combo of metals and viruses (Bernie Devlin found a link between schizophrenia and CMV). All anyone could ever determine was that mental illness is environmental, whether this meant "emotional environment" or "environmental toxins" or a combination. I think our realm has probably made one of the greatest contributions to mental health science by broadening the understanding that susceptibility to toxins may run in families. Otherwise, family behavior can be perpetuated to ruin generation after generation and it's not necessarily the impact of toxins or susceptibility genes which cause this, though that would not help. And then there are simply cases of an individual breaking down from early trauma which doesn't originate from aggression within the family of origin (stranger rape or assault from someone outside the family. Witnessing a death or atrocity. Loss of a sibling, watching someone die from an illness) and "passing on" this unprocessed trauma to subsequent generations. This is why recognizing PTSD is so important, but in past generations, the response was to insist someone just "get over it" or deny it. If they cracked and entered the mental health system, then their troubles really began. Domestic violence still effects fifty percent of women at at least one point in their lives. This is an historically stable figure, though in societies which "accept" this and don't regard it as a crime (Korea in the past), the rate can be much higher. 50% of children are sexually abused between 3 and 18, mostly by people they know. We don't NEED toxins to disrupt people's health and lives, but add this to the mix and the deck is stacked against some. Furthermore, antidepessants have been around since 1959, which is the exact moment when "bipolar disorder"-- then known as manic depression-- skyrocketed. Previous to this, most cases of mental illness were "unipolar". Antidepressants have long been known to trigger mania, particularly when a dose is changed or withdrawn, though it develops gradually while someone is on the medications. Who knows what could have happened? It's not impossible that your grandmother is the key to your family's metal sensitivity. Or she may have started out by lashing out at real social circumstances and ended up nuts from drugs, punitive therapy (for a history of how "great" therapy was for women, read "For Their Own Good" and "The Yellow Wall Paper") and stigmatization. SECOND PARENT EMAIL:>> Here's what I wonder about mental health disorders, like bipolar,> schizophrenia, the big, mind-altering, hallucinogenic, paranoia mental> health disorders. My SIL's mother, who would have been about 80 at> this point, had various diagnoses throughout her life. Essentially,> she would go off on these crazy episodes that would land her in the> funny farm. They'd drug her up, but she would be "normal" in her mind.> Then, over a couple of years she would slowly stop taking her meds,> then cycle over & over. I saw one of the last ones. She was dxed from> bipolar to paranoid schizophrenic. She never did street drugs that any> of us are aware. > > Her bizarre behaviors included chasing her youngest daughter with a> butcher knife to kill her, cleaning out all the furniture from the> room to leave only a rocking chair where she sat until her middle> daughter came home to tell her the make-up Clairol stold her identity> (her name was Clara) and she was gonna sue; playing all her old 45s> and deciding her grandson in high school wasn't taught enough "good"> music & told her daughter she was going to take all of the music to> the school so the yung'ens could learn, screaming it, running up> credit cards that she just got so she could buy a bicycle for every> single kid she knew, when the Walmart manager asked her why she was> buying so many bicycles she screamed & cussed him out & called> everyone over him. > > On mental health drugs, like risperdal, she was great. Calm but not> drugged, happy, but not stupid silly, had mental clarity, etc. She> also took others with seemingly good effects, though I'm sure she had> side effects at times, who couldn't. Off them, she was simply nuts. > > She had 3 daughters, one ( of which I'm convinced is nuts for a> variety of reasons, and one of her ( 3 daughters struggles with> mental health issues, too. > > I guess my thought is, she didn't have microwave ovens, she didn't eat> processed foods out the wazzoo. She was like this from a teenager, if> not before. It is possible something happened in her childhood, I> dunno. But it's also obvious there has been some genetic component. > > Any thoughts on cases like this?> > Debi> FIRST PARENT EMAIL:> >> > I just finished watching the psychiatric elephant program,on PBS-> Frontline (as in 3 blind men and the elephant), totally sickening. > They act as if the brain scans were not connected to the head bone,> the neck bone, the mouth, the throat the stomach, the intestinal> tract, the microwaved food (hotdog on a stick , heated in...) the gmo> foods, artificial flavorings, stabilizers, hormoned milks, home> cleaning products, wrong- wave lighting(see Ott's full spectrum> light work),no exercise, playing to get worn out and tired. > > MUCH LESS, acknowledge the pediatric pharmacy formulas for sticking> nasty ingredients (mercury, lead, aluminum, additives that I don't> remember the names of..) vaccines, mercury amalgams...> > Only scan the brain, read the map...have no ideas about what went> developmentally and environmentally in the body to make the affects> they are hunting for to be IN the Brain?! The map is not the> territory! argh...> > Having personally suffered two kids to the temple of psychiatry and> gotten them out and off of drugs (with much sturm und drung) I feel> quite entitled to express this observation. It is not just the kids,> it's the care takers also. And years out of our lives dealing with> their misconstrued concepts, exasperating. ..ng> >>

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[Guest guest]

Had anyone ever recognized genes when the polio vaccine was started? I

cannot remember when genetics was born. Perhaps the idea of vaccines

has been outdated by genetics?

Just ask Legend.

<g>

Debi

>

> Nora,

>

> I would be interested in reading more about your husband's

research too. It seems quite plausible that many of these so-called

genetic mutations could actually be epigenetic changes that occurred

due to various environmental effects. As far as vaccines have been

studied, I don't see many, if any vaccines (for that matter), which

have been evaluated for their potential to cause genotoxicity and

mutagenicity (nevermind carcinogenicity). If vaccines are being

approved without being evaluated for their potential to cause

genotoxicity, how can anyone nowadays look at genetic or mutagenic

changes, and discount the possibility that vaccines or their

ingredients may have caused some of these changes? I don't think that

would be possible, logically or realistically. Lately, whenever I read

that such-and-such a gene or chromosome has been implicated in ASD, I

feel the need to research how various forms of mercury, or other heavy

metals or environmental toxins may have affected

> those genes or chromosomes. None of us have good answers to these

questions, if vaccines typically are not being evaluated for

potentially serious longterm effects, like the potential to cause

carcinogenicity, genotoxicity, mutagenicity, and often the

ability/potential to impair fertility. I don't know who (was it WHO?)

exactly OK'd for vaccines to be approved without being evaluated in

the longterm, but this whole scenario stinks, and it creates a niche

for other studies to find a spot for supposed " genetic studies " , when

they should be referring to epigenetic changes/studies.

>

> Aasa

[Guest guest]

As far as I can remember the serious gene research started with and Crick's discovery of the double helix, in England, someone correct me! Nora g

Re: [EOHarm) Nora

Had anyone ever recognized genes when the polio vaccine was started? Icannot remember when genetics was born. Perhaps the idea of vaccineshas been outdated by genetics?Just ask Legend.<g>Debi>> Nora,> > I would be interested in reading more about your husband'sresearch too. It seems quite plausible that many of these so-calledgenetic mutations could actually be epigenetic changes that occurreddue to various environmental effects. As far as vaccines have beenstudied, I don't see many, if any vaccines (for that matter), whichhave been evaluated for their potential to cause genotoxicity andmutagenicity (nevermind carcinogenicity). If vaccines are beingapproved without being evaluated for their potential to causegenotoxicity, how can anyone nowadays look at genetic or mutagenicchanges, and discount the possibility that vaccines or theiringredients may have caused some of these changes? I don't think thatwould be possible, logically or realistically. Lately, whenever I readthat such-and-such a gene or chromosome has been implicated in ASD, Ifeel the need to research how various forms of mercury, or other heavymetals or environmental toxins may have affected> those genes or chromosomes. None of us have good answers to thesequestions, if vaccines typically are not being evaluated forpotentially serious longterm effects, like the potential to causecarcinogenicity, genotoxicity, mutagenicity, and often theability/potential to impair fertility. I don't know who (was it WHO?)exactly OK'd for vaccines to be approved without being evaluated inthe longterm, but this whole scenario stinks, and it creates a nichefor other studies to find a spot for supposed "genetic studies", whenthey should be referring to epigenetic changes/studies. > > Aasa