Re: THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!-Pat

[Guest guest]

why don't you add chelation now? n

Re: Re: THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!-Pat

No, I've never gone the bio-med route, and I have seen tremendous gains in my son's growth and development.However, to your point, if I had gone the bio-med route, then I have no doubt the gains would have been attributable to those alternative treatments. Hooker <briandream-big (DOT) us> wrote:

Do you do any biomedical treatments? I know your position on thimerosal but there is merit to biomed regardless where you stand on that issue...> > > > > >> > > > > > Whoa! Don't kill the messenger. I'm just> > telling you what > > > Geier > > > > told > > > > > a judge in 2004. If there are plenty of> > studies as you > > suggest, > > > > then > > > > > why didn't Geier cite them?> > > > > > > > > > > > My point is that there's not much that a> > judge can do > > during > > > > Daubert > > > > > when an expert witness folds like Geier did.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> > > > > Be a better friend, newshound, and> > know-it-all with > > > Mobile. > > > > Try it now.> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------> > > Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.> > >> > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________> Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Search. http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping>

Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

[Guest guest]

Pat, I'm sorry- did I miss the post where you state your profession?

>

>

> I don't assume so much as I consider possible explanations then ask

myself " Which is most likely to be true? " Those familiar with the

principle of Occams Razor will recognize what I'm saying.

>

> The classic Occam's Razor test involves horses and zebras. If

you're walking down a country road (this works best in anyplace but

Africa) and hear hoof beats approaching, you expect a herd of horses

to come thundering by. It could be zebras (assuming their gaits are

similar), but the more likely explanation is horses.

>

> I'm open to the possibility that bio-med treatments for autism

work, and will believe it when I see proof. Until then, I'm thinking

horses.

>

> How many folks here open to the possibility that vaccines don't

cause autism? What kind of proof would you need to accept that?

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

you are trifling with the wrong crowd...n Re: Re: THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!-Pat

I don't assume so much as I consider possible explanations then ask myself "Which is most likely to be true?" Those familiar with the principle of Occams Razor will recognize what I'm saying.The classic Occam's Razor test involves horses and zebras. If you're walking down a country road (this works best in anyplace but Africa) and hear hoof beats approaching, you expect a herd of horses to come thundering by. It could be zebras (assuming their gaits are similar), but the more likely explanation is horses.I'm open to the possibility that bio-med treatments for autism work, and will believe it when I see proof. Until then, I'm thinking horses.How many folks here open to the possibility that vaccines don't cause autism? What kind of proof would you need to accept that? Nanstiel <erikautismmedia (DOT) org> wrote:

It's wonderful your son has made "tremendous gains" without biomedical interventions. I've known children to make tremendous gains with intensive ABA, Speech & Occupational therapies alone... only to lose them again with their regressive autism. It's usually the severe "gut" kids that experience cyclical regressions (like my daughter).But I cringe a little when folks use the term "alternative treatments." She has inflammatory bowel disease (caused by chronic viral infections... vaccine strain, btw), candida & yeast overgrowth and she's heavy metal toxic. Some mineral imbalances, too.There are mainstream treatments for those medical problems that give us "tremendous gains" in her development... with reduced autistic symptoms."Alternative?" Only because she has the "autism" label. If "mainstream" is to just give Adderall, Strattera or Ritalin... while ignoring her medical issues (that DO affect brain development)... then what we really have is a conflict in understanding of terminologies.If your son made gains without biomedical intervention, that is WONDERFUL and I'm envious. However without more specific knowledge of the severity of his autism... or a little info on his medical history, it's impossible to compare why he didn't need those things and my daughter does.Please don't assume that parents (like me) that see gains with biomedical interventions are possibly wrongly attributing them to the treatments... please don't assume that our children would have done fine without them. That is oversimplifying our observations without getting a thorough history of our experiences.thanks,>> No, I've never gone the bio-med route, and I have seen tremendous gains in my son's growth and development.> > However, to your point, if I had gone the bio-med route, then I have no doubt the gains would have been attributable to those alternative treatments.> > >

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[Guest guest]

>Pat,

You asked:

> How many folks here open to the possibility that vaccines don't

cause autism? What kind of proof would you need to accept that?

The front page of this listserv says:

" This is the Environment of Harm discussion list focusing on vaccine

damage and mercury poisoning as it relates to autism. "

There probably are hundreds of listservs dedicated to autism - the

people who join THIS listserv do so because we believe the evidence

points to vaccines as a significant trigger of autism. Not everyone

believes all autism is caused by vaccines, but most believe vaccines

contribute to the rise in autism.

Every month or so someone like yourself joins and throws out

arguments that they feel vindicate vaccines - the same arguments as

the person before them. They tend to get attention for a little

while, they go away, get unsubscribed or become lurkers.

As for your question about how many kids diagnosed today would have

been diagnosed twenty years ago - unless you believe that 97% of the

kids diagnosed today wouldn't have been considered autistic years

ago, the jump from 2:10,000 to 1:150 is more than a widening of the

spectrum.

Someone who doesn't like fish wouldn't go out for sushi. If you

believe vaccines are safe for all, this probably isn't the list for

you.

R

>

>

>

>

>

> Nanstiel <erik@...> wrote: It's

wonderful your son has made " tremendous gains " without biomedical

interventions.

> I've known children to make tremendous gains with intensive ABA,

Speech & Occupational

> therapies alone... only to lose them again with their regressive

autism. It's usually the

> severe " gut " kids that experience cyclical regressions (like my

daughter).

>

> But I cringe a little when folks use the term " alternative

treatments. " She has inflammatory

> bowel disease (caused by chronic viral infections... vaccine

strain, btw), candida & yeast

> overgrowth and she's heavy metal toxic. Some mineral imbalances,

too.

>

> There are mainstream treatments for those medical problems that

give us " tremendous

> gains " in her development... with reduced autistic symptoms.

>

> " Alternative? " Only because she has the " autism " label.

If " mainstream " is to just give

> Adderall, Strattera or Ritalin... while ignoring her medical

issues (that DO affect brain

> development)... then what we really have is a conflict in

understanding of terminologies.

>

> If your son made gains without biomedical intervention, that is

WONDERFUL and I'm

> envious. However without more specific knowledge of the severity

of his autism... or a

> little info on his medical history, it's impossible to compare why

he didn't need those

> things and my daughter does.

>

> Please don't assume that parents (like me) that see gains with

biomedical interventions are

> possibly wrongly attributing them to the treatments... please

don't assume that our

> children would have done fine without them. That is

oversimplifying our observations

> without getting a thorough history of our experiences.

>

> thanks,

>

>

>

> >

> > No, I've never gone the bio-med route, and I have seen

tremendous gains in my son's

> growth and development.

> >

> > However, to your point, if I had gone the bio-med route, then I

have no doubt the gains

> would have been attributable to those alternative treatments.

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

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Search.

>

[Guest guest]

Where does the 2:10,000 number come from? <awremail@...> wrote: As for your question about how many kids diagnosed today would have been diagnosed twenty years ago - unless you believe that 97% of the kids diagnosed today wouldn't have been considered autistic years ago, the jump from 2:10,000 to 1:150 is more than a widening of the spectrum.

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[Guest guest]

> Posted by: " Pat Howregan " pathow73clp@... pathow73clp

>

>I don't assume so much as I consider possible explanations then ask

>myself " Which is most likely to be true? " Those familiar with the

>principle of Occams Razor will recognize what I'm saying.

I'm most familiar with Occams Razor from the Jody film " Contact " .

>I'm open to the possibility that bio-med treatments for autism work,

>and will believe it when I see proof.

Proof would be nice. Although to try and be fair here - proof isn't

always enough:

http://littlelink.webtrouble.com/?goUl

Ignaz Semmelweis, pictured in

<http://www.microbiologytext.com/index.php?module=Book & func=displayfigure & book_i\

d=4 & fig_number=7 & chap_number=1>Figure

1-7, a Hungarian physician working in Vienna, made the first

breakthrough in the true nature of disease. He realized that asepsis

in obstetrical wards could prevent the transmission of childbirth

fever from patient to patient. He therefore instigated a policy for

all attending physicians to wash their hands with with chloride of

lime (a mixture of calcium chloride hypochlorite, CaCl(OCl); calcium

hypochlorite, Ca(OCl)2; and calcium chloride, CaCl2) between

patients. This innovation dropped the mortality rate from 18% to 2.4%.

[snip]

the Hungarian doctor's efforts were opposed by many who could not

accept that physicians themselves could be responsible for spreading

bacterial infection. Ridicule of his idea caused him to move from

Vienna to Pest, Hungary and ultimately played a role in a nervous breakdown.

[snip]

Before his death he published his ideas in a paper The Cause,

Concept, and Prophylaxis of Childbed Fever in 1861. Although the poor

writing of the paper contributed to the obscurity of his ideas, the

work was ignored for 17 years, which raises an interesting point

about the culture of science. Radical ideas, even those that are

correct and can save lives, are sometimes ignored. It takes time to

overcome the dogma of the day. The personalities involved and the

negative light it might throw on past practices play a large role in

the rate of acceptance of a new idea.

>How many folks here open to the possibility that vaccines don't

>cause autism? What kind of proof would you need to accept that?

I'll go a step further. I assume that what are called autism spectrum

disorders are likely to be a wide variety of different diseases.

Therefore they are likely to have a wide variety of different causes.

So what proof would have been adequate in the mid-19th century to get

doctors to wash their hands before delivering babies?

Marty

--

Autism Homeschooler's discussion list

AutismHomeschool/

Drupal Development Blog: http://drupal.face2interface.com/

[Guest guest]

I believe the tecchie term for this person is

TROLL.

>

> you are trifling with the wrong crowd...n Re: Re: THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!-Pat

>

>

[Guest guest]

To avoid argument, let's change that to 4-5:10,000

For decades, the best estimate for the prevalence of autism was four

to five per 10,000 children. More recent studies from multiple

countries using current diagnostic criteria conducted with different

methods have indicated that there is a range of ASD prevalence

between 1 in 500 children and 1 in 166 children.

Source - the CDC website

That still leave you arguing that more than 90% of children

classified as autistic today wouldn't have met the criteria for

autism 20 years ago.

R

>

> As for your question about how many kids diagnosed today would have

been diagnosed twenty years ago - unless you believe that 97% of the

kids diagnosed today wouldn't have been considered autistic years

ago, the jump from 2:10,000 to 1:150 is more than a widening of the

spectrum.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with

Search.

>

[Guest guest]

My reply is a bit off topic here, but I just wanted to add that sometimes I am glad that my kids ask me to help them with their school assignments. I have learned a lot about things I would otherwise know next to nothing about, including Fair Trade. Some weeks ago, one of my children's teachers called me, to say that she thought my kids were plagiarizing their assignments, and copying info directly from the Internet. I told her that I did help them find info about Hurricane Katrina on the Internet, because they had no notes to answer the 9 "comprehension" questions she had given them. My youngest son, who is most heavily affected by ASD did not tell me that they had watched a movie that provided the answers to most of the questions. He didn't remember anything from the movie and did not even tell me that he had seen a movie about the hurricane. I went and dug up all sorts of websites that had the info to answer the questions. I had him read the material, and together,

we highlighted the relevant info and he wrote his answers. The teacher was a bit surprised because she was not asking the students to do any additional research, but I told her we had to, because he came home with a "blank slate" from which to find the answers to the questions. I didn't find out about the movie until my daughter came home with the same assignment and told me that they had seen a movie on the topic. When I asked my son if he had seen the same movie, he said he had, but for whatever reason, he was unable to use that info to help answer the questions he was presented with. Years ago, he was diagnosed also with central auditory processing problems, so perhaps this is why he was not able to retain much from the video. The teacher asked me to provide her with the websites we visited to make sure my kids' work was not merely copied from the sites. I was happy to provide her with this info, because I knew we had spent a lot of time rewording my kids' responses.

What may have been a simple homework assignment for some, turned out to be a major ordeal for my son because, first of all, he did not give me accurate info, and I ended up making it harder on him than his teacher ever intended in the first place. However, I do hope that my son has learned more about the "crap" surrounding Hurricane Katrina than he would have learned from the video he watched and did not seem to have retained/understood/even remembered watching when I quizzed him about what info he had received in class about the hurricane. I even made him read about why Ray Nagin ended up in doodooland after the fiasco, and the FEMA folks also. At the end of the conversation with my son's teacher, she told me that his next assignment would be on Fair Trade, and she also said that the assignment would be based on some written material she would be giving them. I was too embarrassed to tell her that I did not know what "Fair Trade" meant, exactly. (That can

happen when one has their head wrapped around vaccine ingredients for too long.) I have been teaching younger grades for close to 8 years, and Fair Trade is not on our curriculum. Finding out more about Fair Trade was a worthwhile learning experience for me too, as I helped my son find material on the Internet to produce his own poster about how consumers can make a difference by buying Fair Trade certified products. Now I know why the Wall Street Coffee Shop below our building charges the slightly higher prices for their coffee, that one of my older sons was complaining about when they first opened. Aasaschaferatsprynet <schafer@...> wrote: Wrong! It's the North American Free Trade Agreement not Fair Trade.neener neener. You must be paid by Pharma to come here and say thesethings. Jane Tallman = Offit.Lenny> >> > At least you didn't say NAMBLA. > > For those of you with a public education, NAMBLA is the Spanish>

acronym for the North American Fair Trade Agreement. Both Clinton and> the Republicans were in bed together on that one.> > Lenny>

[Guest guest]

My reply is a bit off topic here, but I just wanted to add that sometimes I am glad that my kids ask me to help them with their school assignments. I have learned a lot about things I would otherwise know next to nothing about, including Fair Trade. Some weeks ago, one of my children's teachers called me, to say that she thought my kids were plagiarizing their assignments, and copying info directly from the Internet. I told her that I did help them find info about Hurricane Katrina on the Internet, because they had no notes to answer the 9 "comprehension" questions she had given them. My youngest son, who is most heavily affected by ASD did not tell me that they had watched a movie that provided the answers to most of the questions. He didn't remember anything from the movie and did not even tell me that he had seen a movie about the hurricane. I went and dug up all sorts of websites that had the info to answer the questions. I had him read the material, and together,

we highlighted the relevant info and he wrote his answers. The teacher was a bit surprised because she was not asking the students to do any additional research, but I told her we had to, because he came home with a "blank slate" from which to find the answers to the questions. I didn't find out about the movie until my daughter came home with the same assignment and told me that they had seen a movie on the topic. When I asked my son if he had seen the same movie, he said he had, but for whatever reason, he was unable to use that info to help answer the questions he was presented with. Years ago, he was diagnosed also with central auditory processing problems, so perhaps this is why he was not able to retain much from the video. The teacher asked me to provide her with the websites we visited to make sure my kids' work was not merely copied from the sites. I was happy to provide her with this info, because I knew we had spent a lot of time rewording my kids' responses.

What may have been a simple homework assignment for some, turned out to be a major ordeal for my son because, first of all, he did not give me accurate info, and I ended up making it harder on him than his teacher ever intended in the first place. However, I do hope that my son has learned more about the "crap" surrounding Hurricane Katrina than he would have learned from the video he watched and did not seem to have retained/understood/even remembered watching when I quizzed him about what info he had received in class about the hurricane. I even made him read about why Ray Nagin ended up in doodooland after the fiasco, and the FEMA folks also. At the end of the conversation with my son's teacher, she told me that his next assignment would be on Fair Trade, and she also said that the assignment would be based on some written material she would be giving them. I was too embarrassed to tell her that I did not know what "Fair Trade" meant, exactly. (That can

happen when one has their head wrapped around vaccine ingredients for too long.) I have been teaching younger grades for close to 8 years, and Fair Trade is not on our curriculum. Finding out more about Fair Trade was a worthwhile learning experience for me too, as I helped my son find material on the Internet to produce his own poster about how consumers can make a difference by buying Fair Trade certified products. Now I know why the Wall Street Coffee Shop below our building charges the slightly higher prices for their coffee, that one of my older sons was complaining about when they first opened. Aasaschaferatsprynet <schafer@...> wrote: Wrong! It's the North American Free Trade Agreement not Fair Trade.neener neener. You must be paid by Pharma to come here and say thesethings. Jane Tallman = Offit.Lenny> >> > At least you didn't say NAMBLA. > > For those of you with a public education, NAMBLA is the Spanish>

acronym for the North American Fair Trade Agreement. Both Clinton and> the Republicans were in bed together on that one.> > Lenny>

[Guest guest]

I couldn't retain the white-washed, de-controversialized renditions

of history and current events which I learned from school material

either and also expanded my research as a kid (and trouble was had by

all). The truth has a sort of formula, like mathematics or music.

Without it, pi is just a list of numbers and music is just noise and

learning nonsense is merely rote memorization, not processing. Thus

the expression that something doesn't " ring " true.

> > >

> > > At least you didn't say NAMBLA.

> >

> > For those of you with a public education, NAMBLA is the Spanish

> > acronym for the North American Fair Trade Agreement. Both Clinton

and

> > the Republicans were in bed together on that one.

> >

> > Lenny

> >

>

[Guest guest]

In RDI Land your son's inability to remember is called a lack of

Episodic Memory, one of the 5 core deficits of autism according to Dr.

Gutstein.

> > >

> > > At least you didn't say NAMBLA.

> >

> > For those of you with a public education, NAMBLA is the Spanish

> > acronym for the North American Fair Trade Agreement. Both Clinton and

> > the Republicans were in bed together on that one.

> >

> > Lenny

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My daughter is more of a speech-language disorder kid with a few

spectrummy characteristics - but in 4th grade, I essentially home-

schooled social studies. The teacher told me what they did in class,

sent a textbook to me to keep at home, and I re-taught everything.

Before exams, I'd take her study guide (question form) and go through

the text for the answers, then work on drumming it into her head.

In seventh grade, she started retaining at least 50%, and now in mid

8th-grade, when I quiz her before an exam, she's retained the vast

majority of what she's learned. Something about puberty really

improved this. In fact, with science she has almost a 100% average

and I rarely study with her at all.

So hang in there!

> > > >

> > > > At least you didn't say NAMBLA.

> > >

> > > For those of you with a public education, NAMBLA is the Spanish

> > > acronym for the North American Fair Trade Agreement. Both

Clinton and

> > > the Republicans were in bed together on that one.

> > >

> > > Lenny

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

So you just freelance, then? :-)

> > > >

> > > > Whoa! Don't kill the messenger. I'm just telling you what

> Geier

> > told

> > > a judge in 2004. If there are plenty of studies as you suggest,

> > then

> > > why didn't Geier cite them?

> > > >

> > > > My point is that there's not much that a judge can do during

> > Daubert

> > > when an expert witness folds like Geier did.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with

> Mobile.

> > Try it now.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Never miss a thing. Make your homepage.

>

[Guest guest]

Gee, Lenny, I thought the Temperance Movemnt was about people with bad tempers. Maurine(who had a public school education).schaferatsprynet <schafer@...> wrote: > Other historical examples of "negative thinking" we should all aspire > to:> > Civil rights bus boycott> The suffragist movementThen there's one of my favorites, the Temperance Movement. (For

thoseof you with a public education, that's the woman's right to vote. Ifthey could reverse prohibition, they could reverse anything. . .)Lenny

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[Guest guest]

I attended Clinton High in Clinton, TN. Where the school was bombed at

the height of the desegregation. Many of the teachers were students at

the time and/or the kids' parents attended. Teaching Civil Rights from

them to all of us was quite interesting. Interestingly enough, we

received regular prank bomb threats even in the 1980's. Lol.

Debi

>

> I couldn't retain the white-washed, de-controversialized renditions

> of history and current events which I learned from school material

> either and also expanded my research as a kid (and trouble was had by

> all). The truth has a sort of formula, like mathematics or music.

> Without it, pi is just a list of numbers and music is just noise and

> learning nonsense is merely rote memorization, not processing. Thus

> the expression that something doesn't " ring " true.

>