RE: Short-term goals? (Lean body gain andcreatine )

[Guest guest]

Kit Keyes [kit.keyes@...] wrote:

> Deus,

>

> Feel free to do what you want. We have made the choice to follow the

> Body-for-LIFE program. That's why we are here and not following the advice

> of other sites that may be inconsistent. Why are you here? With all due

> respect your language is offensive.

well gee I am sorry, I have no idea why you are taking offense.

I am here because I was hoping to learn something new, is that a problem?

> The idea behind fat loss and muscle gain at the same time is to be between

> the boundaries of BMR and what you expend daily. The closer to the upper

> limit the more you focus on muscle gain. The closer you are to the lower

> limit the more you focus on fat loss. In the middle each will occur to some

> extent. Is that watered down enough for you?

interesting theory, but the process of hypertrophy (actual muscle growth,

rather then volumisation) is controled by many more factors then just

calories relative to BMR. if it is as simple as the hussman site claims are you

trying to tell me that you could have added the extra 9 pounds of muscle

by simply upping your calories and still loosing over a pound of fat a week?

and I am not trying to be rude but the only way you are going to do 20/20 in 12

weeks on gods earth is by taking a serious steroid stack.

Deus

[Guest guest]

hi,

Kit Keyes [kit.keyes@...] wrote:

> Deus,

>

> I would have done better the first round but

> dropped below BMR and lost 5 lbs. of muscle between week 5 and 8. In both

> rounds I was taking HMB which helps to prevent or minimize wasting muscle.

looks like HMB didnt work for you either. its never worked for me, and I

still have heaps in my fridge. I dont know anyone thats ever said anything

good about it.

> I have no problem with learning, and encourage all to be lifelong

> enthusiastic learners. I do have a problem with unneeded or uncalled for

> disrespectful responses.

I am not really sure which responses where disrespectful. Ill add more

smileys in future

> There are a number of strategies, but to say you can't gain

> muscle at the same time as lose fat is just plain wrong.

again I never said that. I said you cant gain substantial muscle while

substantial fat loss is going on except in certain special conditions.

> A question that occurs to me is whether you have read the book and are

> following any aspect of the program or if you are just doing your own thing.

> Did you have poor results in your earlier round? Did you follow the

> nutrition and/or training program then? Did you make modifications? How do

> you measure your progress? What are you doing today?

sure I read the book, the faqs, the web sites the magazines, and yes I did

6 months of BFL last year, ie two rounds. but failled at both my, what I

thought would be realistic goals. to see my abs and put 1 " or more on my

biceps.

before that I did a bit of weight training a few years prior but we didnt

have a clue what were doing and made little progress. due to various

reasons we stoped training for most of this year. am I following the

program now? no I am experimenting with bulking. I will when I want to lose

bodyfat.

couldnt measure bodyfat much the first round, but got the top of the range

tanita

during the second. (it even tells me total body water!) it has its

problems so I learnt to read its trends. I suplemented with my tape measure.

so I had a pretty good idea of what was going on.

what did I learn from 6 months of BFL? well stuart Mc of " Beyond Brawn "

summarises it really well:

" you will find gaining strength and muscle very difficult while loosing

bodyfat " .

thats exactly what I found. and:

" ...gaining a little fat while building a lot of muscle is fine, and in many

cases

it is actually necessary " .

yep thats exactly what I found.

did I tweak? sure did. lots of tweaking none of which produced fatloss

and any significant muscle gain. to the point where I did badly on both

fatloss and muscle gain. its a learning experience.

I was kind of hoping someone would shed some light on what mechanism(s)

BFL uses outside of creatine monohydrate that allows one to build substantial

muscle while loosing substantial fat or relying on the fact that

most " practitioners " are total newbies.

I got here by accident and found that I was answering lots of newbie

questions. if you are going to get offended by me questioning things

I can stop answering newbie questions and leave. thats fine.

as to the calories relative to BMR. thats so simplistic its virtually useless

for anyone except newbies.

this is also a huge simplification but in reality your body has anabolic

systems,

(specifically we are concerned with muscle building) and catabolic systems

which tear things down along with various hormones for each system.

the catabolic system has a nasty habit (from the bodybuilding viewpoint

of using muscle as fodder for the brain. if you are loosing fat the

catabolic hormones responsible will also be tearing down muscle and more.

( T3 I read for example will supress T cells. ie tear down your immune system).

for newbies and a few other special cases the anabolic system can outpace

the catabolic systems. I found my fatloss stoped once I uped the

calories to try to gain muscle mass. the relationship between anabolism

and catabolism is a lot more complicated then being controled by caloric level.

was I near genetic potential after 3 months of training? as if!

now 20 pounds of muscle over 12 weeks is the kind of growth you get with

steroids

and very high caloric intake. obviously I am always curious at how one

manages to grow at steroid rates if one isnt using them. something that might

be worth trying.

and the answer is almost always people dont really grow that fast,

they just think they do because of the lean body mass changes.

mostly from displaced water in fatloss or creatine volumisation

or just plain better hydration. newbies will at first get big increases in

strength

without any muscle hypertrophy simply from increased neurological efficiency.

creatine will also cause a big increase in strength without any initial

muscle hypertrophy. muscle hypertrophy the actual creation of new muscle

cells, I would have thought is the actual goal rather then simple muscle

volumisation.

I find the newbie practice of announcing lean mass gain by subtracting

fat loss as " muscle pounds gained " amusing.

further, anabolic hormones like testosterone are fat soluble. I found when I

followed

the BFL guideliness over authorised foods and avoiding visible fat I was

probably way

below the recommended 20% fat intake despite the fact I suplemented with flax

oil.

its not very clear how one controls fat % without " counting calories " .

and obviously from the hussman site its quite likely you have to at

least guestimate your calories to make adjustments. portions is for beginners.

low dietary levels of fat can be seriously counterproductive for hormones

like testosterone. quick muscle gain involves lots of calories,

including plenty of fat, and hence some bodyfat gain. look at anthony elise's

site,

he claims he did not do BFL to win his championship.

well that was a big relief to me since he failled his lie detector

test, either he did steroids or he did a huge bulking cycle. he claims

he did a huge bulking cycle, no cardio, heavy weights etc. ok now his

gains sound at least a litle more believable.

visions of anthony fluffing around on a stationary bike and waiving

little dumbbells around while sipping on a myoplex lite is not

exactly going to produce wet dream potential to a hungry amazon cannibal

sure you can " pack " muscles on slowly and avoid fat gain but you are talking

about small amounts of muscle. the key word here is slow. even 10 pounds in

12 weeks is not exactly slow. thats 50 odd pounds a year. jesus the big boys

had better watch out for the BFLers! aas for Clarence Bass he was ripped but he

certainly wasnt a big boy.

both fastloss and muscle building are self limiting systems the longer you

do it the less effective it gets. BFL doesnt address this very well.

there are more problems with BFL but this post is already too way long Ill

write about them another time.

Deus

[Guest guest]

Smileys are good....make tough situtions laughable....and feelings are left

intact...smile...works for me....see...smile Z

[Guest guest]

>

> I am not really sure which responses where

disrespectful.

Try this one:

I find the newbie practice of announcing lean mass

> gain by subtracting

> fat loss as " muscle pounds gained " amusing.

That could easily be read as belittling towards we

that have only been doing weight training for a short

time.

One of the biggest obsticals that we have to face is a

lack of confidence that a course of action is actually

working when the progress is slow, incrimental.

Therefor we look for ways to track our progress that,

if not absolutely acurate, at least gives us a

concrete assesment to keep the faith. I'm am sorry if

out enthusiasm and neophite naivitee is so " amusing "

to you; forgive us for our ignorance.

I, too, went to the gym and started a weight training

program before trying BFL. I was there five mornings a

week, 35 minutes on the tread mill and then did

weights. After 16 weeks I gained 3#. Not the

direction that I wanted to go.

After starting BFL, I started to see real changes in

my body. I lost 14# in 12 weeks, probably not what

you consider " significant " , but thrilling to me. I

don't KNOW that I've gained muscle, except that I know

I have gained strength and can see the muscles better.

Now, all of this, you will say, is because I am a

" newbie " and have so far to go. I'm sure that almost

any intense program would give me similar

results.....So? What is exactly the point of

belittling a program that gives results? I for one

have never assumed that through following this program

as written I could become Ms Universe. That's okay

with me. looks pretty hot though, and I

wouldn't mind following in her foot steps. ,

are you using just BFL? Do you use creatin?

Now, as for your basic argument with Kit, I think that

the two of you are arguing symantics rather than

differences. The examples that Kit brings forward are

relativly " newbie " results, and you are talking about

substantial changes in someone who has already been at

this for a long time.

Most of us on this list are " newbies " and are not

trying to do more than feel fit and look lean. That's

doable on this program, don't you think?

> " you will find gaining strength and muscle very

> difficult while loosing bodyfat " .

>

> thats exactly what I found.

> its not very clear how one controls fat % without

> " counting calories " . and obviously from the hussman

site its quite likely you have to at least guestimate

your calories to make adjustments. portions is for

beginners.

I have to agree with this. I did the " portions " for a

while, was not loosing any weight, felt tired...got to

looking at the calorie intake and found that I was

underestimating portions and had to increase in order

to stay above the BMR. Once I did that I was loosing

again.

>look at anthony elise's site, he claims he did not do

>BFL to win his championship.

Where do you find the sites for the champions?

I have been a little surprised to see that these

winners did not follow the program to some degree

(some more than others). It is a little

disillisioning. But then I go to bodychangers.com and

look at Pam Brown's pictures and I think who cares

about the competion anyway. I want to, for once in my

life, be fit and Height/Weight proportionate, and if

she did it on this program so can I. There are too

many Pam Browns out there who have posted their

results for me to doubt that this can work.

Barbara

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Just for the record, my feeling have been hurt. Please, Deus, I request

that you no longer contact me off the list. I resent your " read between the

lines " accusation of me using steroids. I do NOT JUICE! Never have, never

will.

I joined this list for positive support. Your negativity about BFL and lack

of correct medical information nauseates me. Replying to this thread is no

longer worth my time.

Glenda

> Subject: RE: Short-term goals? (Lean body gain andcreatine )

>

> Smileys are good....make tough situtions laughable....and feelings are

left

> intact...smile...works for me....see...smile Z

[Guest guest]

Glenda [ihrgae@...] wrote:

>I resent your " read between the

> lines " accusation of me using steroids. I do NOT JUICE! Never have, never

> will.

I am sorry I have no idea where you got that idea from.

Deus

[Guest guest]

Barbara W [alysd38@...] wrote:

>

> One of the biggest obsticals that we have to face is a

> lack of confidence that a course of action is actually

> working when the progress is slow, incrimental.

> Therefor we look for ways to track our progress that,

> if not absolutely acurate, at least gives us a

> concrete assesment to keep the faith. I'm am sorry if

> out enthusiasm and neophite naivitee is so " amusing "

> to you; forgive us for our ignorance.

its not anyones enthusiam that is amusing its the religious

and touchy nature applied to gross inacuracies. I have my

moments of insecurity like anyone else but confidence is a

choice you will make for yourself not something that comes

in a packet. its a choice that is reinforced by gathering the

information you need to succeed at your goals.

if you want a good way to track progress measure your

core body temperature the instant you open your eyes in

the morning. provided you have are not ill you can see

your core temperature rise over time if your muscle mass

is going up then so is your BMR.

if your core temperature is rising along with your strength

then thats a good sign of new muscle mass,

if your strength is rising but your core temperature isnt

you are probably improving other factors like hydration

or neurology. if you are female you obviously have to take

into account ovulation. core temperature is also an excellent

way of detecting ovulation.

if your core temperature is going down you may be loosing

lean mass or dieting too hard.

all this information is out on the internet.

obviously various supplements can interfer with core temperature.

> Most of us on this list are " newbies " and are not

> trying to do more than feel fit and look lean. That's

> doable on this program, don't you think?

absolutely. I am a newbie too.

> >look at anthony elise's site, he claims he did not do

> >BFL to win his championship.

>

> Where do you find the sites for the champions?

has a web site at http://www.musclegaintips.com/

there are some other exEAS champions with a little to

say at the www.bodylogix.com

> I have been a little surprised to see that these

> winners did not follow the program to some degree

> (some more than others).

have faith in your self not in someone elses program,

the program is just a distilation of generally availlable

information and geared towards selling supplements.

change is possible, significant change is possible, heroic

change is possible in the face of overwhelming adversity.

often its just a matter of good, timely and *accurate* information.

Deus

[Guest guest]

Would you send me some inspiration and download your pics to me? Thanks

Norma

[Guest guest]

I agree with you Rhonda. Our group dialogue should reflect the Power Mind Set.

Norma