Re: Palpitations and Veparamil

[Guest guest]

Hello to all,

Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started have fast heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I went to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on Cardicor and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis Plus which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any one give me advice, I feel im going mad.

Thanks

Ann

Re: inclusion body myositis

Are you making sure that you are taking your COQ10 300 mgs daily. Istopped the poison on April 28th this year and feel so much better. Ibelieve that I too had Rhabdomyalasis as all my levels were raised andI had severe jaundice. Good Luck Pamela--- InLipitor , "poultneyboy" <d-mhannah@...>wrote:>> I have been taking honey on my cereal in the morning instead of sugar > and it seems to give me a little more energy. The Dr. just started > me on prednisone but that has only been this week so I can't see it > helping yet. If that doesn't work there may not be much else they > can do for IBM. I still have hope that staying off statins I will > improve and maybe return to normal. Dr. says it should have cleared > up by now but one other Dr. said he has seen it take a year or more. > Good luck to you.> > > > > > >> > > > > I started taking Mevacor about 12 years ago and then switched > > to > > > > Zocor > > > > > then Lipitor then Vytorin. I may have even had others I > can't > > > > > remember. I started having muscle problems about 3 years ago > > but > > > now > > > > I > > > > > am told I have inclusion body myositis. Has anyone else had > > this > > > > > diagnosis?> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 11/13/2008 6:01 PM

[Guest guest]

Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided

doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals exclusively

with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.

The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally

use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms and

I believe easier on the stomach.

Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete CoQ10

which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I

had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could

handle to limit most palpitations.

Steve

fortviewlodge wrote:

>

>

> Hello to all,

>

> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started have fast

> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I went

> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on Cardicor

> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

>

> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis Plus

> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any one give

> me advice, I feel im going mad.

>

> Thanks

>

> Ann

>

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

[Guest guest]

Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided

doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals exclusively

with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.

The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally

use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms and

I believe easier on the stomach.

Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete CoQ10

which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I

had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could

handle to limit most palpitations.

Steve

fortviewlodge wrote:

>

>

> Hello to all,

>

> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started have fast

> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I went

> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on Cardicor

> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

>

> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis Plus

> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any one give

> me advice, I feel im going mad.

>

> Thanks

>

> Ann

>

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

[Guest guest]

Ann,

Take a close look at what's in the food, drink, medications etc. you're ingesting.

What you're experiencing - palpitations, increased heart rate etc. - could be a reaction to certain additives and/or preservatives. The first suspect [imho] would be sulfites (or sulphites) or chemical sensitization.

Sulfites may or may not be listed on the labels of the food, drink, fresh food etc. that you're ingesting.

How much has been added (i.e., ppm or ppb) is anyone's guess.

And I always wonder how many unsuspecting folks have been medicated for life when food preservative/additive allergies could be the underlying cause.

If the product/ingredients or any part thereof originated in China or any other similar country - then the food and other goods would be even more suspect and can't be trusted.

All of the best in your quest for an accurate diagnosis.

, ,

Re: inclusion body myositis

Are you making sure that you are taking your COQ10 300 mgs daily. Istopped the poison on April 28th this year and feel so much better. Ibelieve that I too had Rhabdomyalasis as all my levels were raised andI had severe jaundice. Good Luck Pamela--- InLipitor , "poultneyboy" <d-mhannah@...>wrote:>> I have been taking honey on my cereal in the morning instead of sugar > and it seems to give me a little more energy. The Dr. just started > me on prednisone but that has only been this week so I can't see it > helping yet. If that doesn't work there may not be much else they > can do for IBM. I still have hope that staying off statins I will > improve and maybe return to normal. Dr. says it should have cleared > up by now but one other Dr. said he has seen it take a year or more. > Good luck to you.> > > > > > >> > > > > I started taking Mevacor about 12 years ago and then switched > > to > > > > Zocor > > > > > then Lipitor then Vytorin. I may have even had others I > can't > > > > > remember. I started having muscle problems about 3 years ago > > but > > > now > > > > I > > > > > am told I have inclusion body myositis. Has anyone else had > > this > > > > > diagnosis?> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 11/13/2008 6:01 PM

[Guest guest]

Steve:

One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed

around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which

people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature of

the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I

don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are

seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of

iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to

shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to

make a statement in isolation such as " your doctor should have

recommended magnesium " , in a manner that suggest this was some sort of

universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see

Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations. If

there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please

educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that

depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science

does not appear to support that proposition.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which

I have quoted from below:

" Table 1

Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

Arrhythmias

Atrial fibrillation/flutter

Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

block or sinus node dysfunction

Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

(sick sinus syndrome)

Multifocal atrial tachycardia

Premature supraventricular

or ventricular contractions

Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

Supraventricular tachycardia

Ventricular tachycardia

Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

Psychiatric causes

Anxiety disorder

Panic attacks

Drugs and medications

Alcohol

Caffeine

Certain prescription and over-the-counter

agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

theophylline, beta agonists)

Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

Tobacco

Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

Atrial or ventricular septal defect

Cardiomyopathy

Congenital heart disease

Congestive heart failure

Mitral valve prolapse

Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

Pericarditis

Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

Extracardiac causes

Anemia

Electrolyte imbalance

Fever

Hyperthyroidism

Hypoglycemia

Hypovolemia

Pheochromocytoma

Pulmonary disease

Vasovagal syndrome

NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to

least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in

alphabetical order. "

Ann:

It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you,

including your personal circumstances and your full medical history.

The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your

cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should

allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right

now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not

normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in all

things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to

problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you

can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the

systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the

reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate

reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when

compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a

stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse

pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions.

Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine

is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure over a

period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will

be standardised over time.

When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful to

know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all

readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and

change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood

pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected.

Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making

several readings during the course of the day (try to make the

readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log

that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety

associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is

abnormal', and other such natural fears.

Kind regards,

Jeff

On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided

> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals

> exclusively

> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.

> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally

> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms

> and

> I believe easier on the stomach.

>

> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete

> CoQ10

> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I

> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could

> handle to limit most palpitations.

>

> Steve

>

> fortviewlodge wrote:

> >

> >

> > Hello to all,

> >

> > Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

> have fast

> > heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

> went

> > to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

> > normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

> Cardicor

> > and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

> >

> > The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

> Plus

> > which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

> one give

> > me advice, I feel im going mad.

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> > Ann

> >

> --

>

> Steve - dudescholar4@...

>

> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

>

> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Jeff,

Some years ago, I began having heart palpitations. At that time I was

beefing up on my calcium because

the scare at that time was that if I didn't take my calcium, I would

have osteoporosis. I even had a bone

scan where it showed all those spots where the bone in my spine was

supposedly wearing away.

Scary!! So I began taking calcium supplements like 1000 mgs per day.

Soon you know it, I began having heart palpitations. They were so

pronounced and unusual that

I went to have it checked out by my doctor who then referred me to the

cardiologist. I was diagnosed

with mitral valve prolapse and was told to take a beta blocker whenever

I felt the palpitations. But the drug didn't help.

So I went back to see the cardiologist. This time he advised me to drink

more water and to consider

taking SLO mag. I began drinking more water, stopped taking my calcium

and began taking a magnesium

supplement every night and LO and BEHOLD, those palpitations eventually

subsided. WOW.

I later learned that a large part of the population is magnesium

deficient (which I was since I was not a regular beef eater).

phine

Jeff Cable wrote:

> Steve:

> One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed

> around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which

> people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature of

> the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I

> don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are

> seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of

> iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

>

> The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to

> shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to

> make a statement in isolation such as " your doctor should have

> recommended magnesium " , in a manner that suggest this was some sort of

> universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see

> Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations. If

> there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please

> educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that

> depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science

> does not appear to support that proposition.

>

> http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

>

> The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which

> I have quoted from below:

>

> " Table 1

> Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

> Arrhythmias

> Atrial fibrillation/flutter

> Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

> block or sinus node dysfunction

> Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

> (sick sinus syndrome)

> Multifocal atrial tachycardia

> Premature supraventricular

> or ventricular contractions

> Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

> Supraventricular tachycardia

> Ventricular tachycardia

> Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

> Psychiatric causes

> Anxiety disorder

> Panic attacks

> Drugs and medications

> Alcohol

> Caffeine

> Certain prescription and over-the-counter

> agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

> theophylline, beta agonists)

> Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

> Tobacco

> Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

> Atrial or ventricular septal defect

> Cardiomyopathy

> Congenital heart disease

> Congestive heart failure

> Mitral valve prolapse

> Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

> Pericarditis

> Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

> Extracardiac causes

> Anemia

> Electrolyte imbalance

> Fever

> Hyperthyroidism

> Hypoglycemia

> Hypovolemia

> Pheochromocytoma

> Pulmonary disease

> Vasovagal syndrome

>

> NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to

> least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in

> alphabetical order. "

>

> Ann:

> It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you,

> including your personal circumstances and your full medical history.

> The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your

> cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should

> allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right

> now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not

> normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in all

> things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to

> problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you

> can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the

> systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the

> reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

>

> I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate

> reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when

> compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a

> stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse

> pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions.

> Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine

> is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure over a

> period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will

> be standardised over time.

>

> When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful to

> know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all

> readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and

> change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood

> pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected.

> Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making

> several readings during the course of the day (try to make the

> readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log

> that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety

> associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is

> abnormal', and other such natural fears.

>

> Kind regards,

> Jeff

>

> On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

>

>

>> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

>> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided

>> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals

>> exclusively

>> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.

>> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally

>> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms

>> and

>> I believe easier on the stomach.

>>

>> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete

>> CoQ10

>> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I

>> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could

>> handle to limit most palpitations.

>>

>> Steve

>>

>> fortviewlodge wrote:

>>

>>> Hello to all,

>>>

>>> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

>>>

>> have fast

>>

>>> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

>>>

>> went

>>

>>> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

>>> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

>>>

>> Cardicor

>>

>>> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

>>>

>>> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

>>>

>> Plus

>>

>>> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

>>>

>> one give

>>

>>> me advice, I feel im going mad.

>>>

>>> Thanks

>>>

>>> Ann

>>>

>>>

>> --

>>

>> Steve - dudescholar4@...

>>

>> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

>> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

>>

>> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

>> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>>

>>

>>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Jeff,

Some years ago, I began having heart palpitations. At that time I was

beefing up on my calcium because

the scare at that time was that if I didn't take my calcium, I would

have osteoporosis. I even had a bone

scan where it showed all those spots where the bone in my spine was

supposedly wearing away.

Scary!! So I began taking calcium supplements like 1000 mgs per day.

Soon you know it, I began having heart palpitations. They were so

pronounced and unusual that

I went to have it checked out by my doctor who then referred me to the

cardiologist. I was diagnosed

with mitral valve prolapse and was told to take a beta blocker whenever

I felt the palpitations. But the drug didn't help.

So I went back to see the cardiologist. This time he advised me to drink

more water and to consider

taking SLO mag. I began drinking more water, stopped taking my calcium

and began taking a magnesium

supplement every night and LO and BEHOLD, those palpitations eventually

subsided. WOW.

I later learned that a large part of the population is magnesium

deficient (which I was since I was not a regular beef eater).

phine

Jeff Cable wrote:

> Steve:

> One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed

> around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which

> people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature of

> the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I

> don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are

> seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of

> iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

>

> The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to

> shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to

> make a statement in isolation such as " your doctor should have

> recommended magnesium " , in a manner that suggest this was some sort of

> universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see

> Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations. If

> there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please

> educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that

> depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science

> does not appear to support that proposition.

>

> http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

>

> The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which

> I have quoted from below:

>

> " Table 1

> Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

> Arrhythmias

> Atrial fibrillation/flutter

> Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

> block or sinus node dysfunction

> Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

> (sick sinus syndrome)

> Multifocal atrial tachycardia

> Premature supraventricular

> or ventricular contractions

> Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

> Supraventricular tachycardia

> Ventricular tachycardia

> Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

> Psychiatric causes

> Anxiety disorder

> Panic attacks

> Drugs and medications

> Alcohol

> Caffeine

> Certain prescription and over-the-counter

> agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

> theophylline, beta agonists)

> Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

> Tobacco

> Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

> Atrial or ventricular septal defect

> Cardiomyopathy

> Congenital heart disease

> Congestive heart failure

> Mitral valve prolapse

> Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

> Pericarditis

> Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

> Extracardiac causes

> Anemia

> Electrolyte imbalance

> Fever

> Hyperthyroidism

> Hypoglycemia

> Hypovolemia

> Pheochromocytoma

> Pulmonary disease

> Vasovagal syndrome

>

> NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to

> least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in

> alphabetical order. "

>

> Ann:

> It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you,

> including your personal circumstances and your full medical history.

> The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your

> cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should

> allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right

> now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not

> normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in all

> things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to

> problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you

> can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the

> systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the

> reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

>

> I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate

> reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when

> compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a

> stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse

> pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions.

> Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine

> is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure over a

> period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will

> be standardised over time.

>

> When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful to

> know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all

> readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and

> change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood

> pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected.

> Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making

> several readings during the course of the day (try to make the

> readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log

> that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety

> associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is

> abnormal', and other such natural fears.

>

> Kind regards,

> Jeff

>

> On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

>

>

>> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

>> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided

>> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals

>> exclusively

>> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.

>> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally

>> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms

>> and

>> I believe easier on the stomach.

>>

>> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete

>> CoQ10

>> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I

>> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could

>> handle to limit most palpitations.

>>

>> Steve

>>

>> fortviewlodge wrote:

>>

>>> Hello to all,

>>>

>>> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

>>>

>> have fast

>>

>>> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

>>>

>> went

>>

>>> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

>>> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

>>>

>> Cardicor

>>

>>> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

>>>

>>> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

>>>

>> Plus

>>

>>> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

>>>

>> one give

>>

>>> me advice, I feel im going mad.

>>>

>>> Thanks

>>>

>>> Ann

>>>

>>>

>> --

>>

>> Steve - dudescholar4@...

>>

>> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

>> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

>>

>> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

>> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>>

>>

>>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jeff....thank you again for such an informative post. Indeed a saver. There are so many variables that it is hard to pick out which is the culprit. I stopped having palpatations when I stopped the statins but I see on the list that anemia is another cause....I was anemic and have been having iron infusions over the last few mons. Actually there are several items on your list that I was going through and as I stabilize lots of things are shifting in my body. Myself I am trying to get off most meds and giving my body a chance to do what it can do. Thanks again for another chapter of what I call my "Jeff Info File" .....Kay

From: Jeff Cable <jeff@...>Lipitor Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:36:44 AMSubject: Re: Palpitations and VeparamilSteve:One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature of the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.The medical training

and experiences of one clinician, will help to shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to make a statement in isolation such as "your doctor should have recommended magnesium", in a manner that suggest this was some sort of universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations. If there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science does not appear to support that proposition. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.htmlThe differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which I have quoted from

below:"Table 1Differential Diagnosis of PalpitationsArrhythmiasAtrial fibrillation/flutterBradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenousblock or sinus node dysfunctionBradycardia-tachycardia syndrome(sick sinus syndrome)Multifocal atrial tachycardiaPremature supraventricularor ventricular contractionsSinus tachycardia or arrhythmiaSupraventricular tachycardiaVentricular tachycardiaWolff-Parkinson-White syndromePsychiatric causesAnxiety disorderPanic attacksDrugs and medicationsAlcoholCaffeineCertain prescription and over-the-counteragents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,theophylline, beta agonists)Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)TobaccoNonarrhythmic cardiac causesAtrial or ventricular septal defectCardiomyopathyCongenital heart diseaseCongestive heart failureMitral valve prolapsePacemaker-mediated

tachycardiaPericarditisValvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)Extracardiac causesAnemiaElectrolyte imbalanceFeverHyperthyroidismHypoglycemiaHypovolemiaPheochromocytomaPulmonary diseaseVasovagal syndromeNOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in alphabetical order."Ann:It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you, including your personal circumstances and your full medical history. The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not normally aware of our heart beat.

Cardiologists are specialists in all things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions. Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure over a period of

time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will be standardised over time.When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful to know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected. Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making several readings during the course of the day (try to make the readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is abnormal', and other such natural fears.Kind regards,JeffOn 14 Nov

2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals > exclusively> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms > and> I believe easier on the stomach.>> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete > CoQ10> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could> handle to limit most palpitations.>> Steve>> fortviewlodge wrote:> >> >>

> Hello to all,> >> > Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started > have fast> > heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I > went> > to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very> > normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on > Cardicor> > and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,> >> > The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis > Plus> > which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any > one give> > me advice, I feel im going mad.> >> > Thanks> >> > Ann> >> -- >> Steve - dudescholar4@...>> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html>> "If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march> to truth we must still march on." --Stopford >> ------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Good point ....I have many chemicals sensitivities but sometimes it is like looking for a needle in a haystack to find the instigator. Kay

From: Carbone Jr. <forthebirds39@...>Lipitor Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 2:28:30 PMSubject: Re: Palpitations and Veparamil

Ann,

Take a close look at what's in the food, drink, medications etc. you're ingesting.

What you're experiencing - palpitations, increased heart rate etc. - could be a reaction to certain additives and/or preservatives. The first suspect [imho] would be sulfites (or sulphites) or chemical sensitization.

Sulfites may or may not be listed on the labels of the food, drink, fresh food etc. that you're ingesting.

How much has been added (i.e., ppm or ppb) is anyone's guess.

And I always wonder how many unsuspecting folks have been medicated for life when food preservative/ additive allergies could be the underlying cause.

If the product/ingredients or any part thereof originated in China or any other similar country - then the food and other goods would be even more suspect and can't be trusted.

All of the best in your quest for an accurate diagnosis.

, ,

[TakingLipitorAndHa teIt] Re: inclusion body myositis

Are you making sure that you are taking your COQ10 300 mgs daily. Istopped the poison on April 28th this year and feel so much better. Ibelieve that I too had Rhabdomyalasis as all my levels were raised andI had severe jaundice. Good Luck Pamela> >

> > >> > > > > I started taking Mevacor about 12 years ago and then switched > > to > > > > Zocor > > > > > then Lipitor then Vytorin. I may have even had others I > can't > > > > > remember. I started having muscle problems about 3 years ago > > but > > > now > > > > I > > > > > am told I have inclusion body myositis. Has anyone else had > > this > > > > > diagnosis?> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.3/1786 - Release Date: 11/13/2008 6:01 PM

Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new

[Guest guest]

> Hello Jeff,

> Some years ago, I began having heart palpitations. At that time I was

> beefing up on my calcium because

> the scare at that time was that if I didn't take my calcium, I would

> have osteoporosis. I even had a bone

> scan where it showed all those spots where the bone in my spine was

> supposedly wearing away.

> Scary!!

Hello phine.

Women do lose bone mineral density as they advance in years. I was

once involved in a global clinical trial involving bisphosphonates and

we provided BMD measurements at the wrist, spine and hip, for all

participants. A percentage of women fall into the group of fast bone

mineral density losers. I recall that calcium supplementation did not

affect the outcomes very much. You need vitamin D to absorb the

calcium in any event. The bespoke software of the BMD scanners could

make a slight lowering of bone mineral density (normal for age and

gender) appear in red and it could be used to scare the patients

witless. Osteoporotic bones are not generally improved with

supplements. The most effective way is to keep exercising the bones

through normal activities of living... so walking 1/2 mile instead of

driving will keep the ligamentous attachments from the muscles,

pulling on the bones and preventing the rapid leaching of calcium. It

is also affect by hormonal changes in women so a full hysterectomy and

salpingo-oophorectomy will tend to increase the risk of osteoporosis,

especially in endomorphic body types.

> So I began taking calcium supplements like 1000 mgs per day.

> Soon you know it, I began having heart palpitations. They were so

> pronounced and unusual that

> I went to have it checked out by my doctor who then referred me to the

> cardiologist. I was diagnosed

> with mitral valve prolapse and was told to take a beta blocker

> whenever

> I felt the palpitations. But the drug didn't help.

> So I went back to see the cardiologist. This time he advised me to

> drink

> more water and to consider

> taking SLO mag. I began drinking more water, stopped taking my

> calcium

> and began taking a magnesium

> supplement every night and LO and BEHOLD, those palpitations

> eventually

> subsided. WOW.

> I later learned that a large part of the population is magnesium

> deficient (which I was since I was not a regular beef eater).

>

> phine

My perspective here was not to slate the use of Magnesium, nor to say

that the point of view held by Steve was 'wrong'. It is just that the

medical literature is not particularly forthcoming on this matter and

what works for one person may not work for any other person because of

massive differences in the many factors which are variable. A single

anecdotal data point should never be used to construct a global

treatment paradigm. I not only want to learn about and see just how

Magnesium works it magic, I want to know how to apply its efficacy to

the general population.

Kind regards,

Jeff

>

> Jeff Cable wrote:

>> Steve:

>> One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed

>> around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which

>> people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature

>> of

>> the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I

>> don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are

>> seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of

>> iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

>>

>> The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to

>> shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to

>> make a statement in isolation such as " your doctor should have

>> recommended magnesium " , in a manner that suggest this was some sort

>> of

>> universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see

>> Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations.

>> If

>> there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please

>> educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that

>> depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science

>> does not appear to support that proposition.

>>

>> http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

>>

>> The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which

>> I have quoted from below:

>>

>> " Table 1

>> Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

>> Arrhythmias

>> Atrial fibrillation/flutter

>> Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

>> block or sinus node dysfunction

>> Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

>> (sick sinus syndrome)

>> Multifocal atrial tachycardia

>> Premature supraventricular

>> or ventricular contractions

>> Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

>> Supraventricular tachycardia

>> Ventricular tachycardia

>> Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

>> Psychiatric causes

>> Anxiety disorder

>> Panic attacks

>> Drugs and medications

>> Alcohol

>> Caffeine

>> Certain prescription and over-the-counter

>> agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

>> theophylline, beta agonists)

>> Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

>> Tobacco

>> Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

>> Atrial or ventricular septal defect

>> Cardiomyopathy

>> Congenital heart disease

>> Congestive heart failure

>> Mitral valve prolapse

>> Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

>> Pericarditis

>> Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

>> Extracardiac causes

>> Anemia

>> Electrolyte imbalance

>> Fever

>> Hyperthyroidism

>> Hypoglycemia

>> Hypovolemia

>> Pheochromocytoma

>> Pulmonary disease

>> Vasovagal syndrome

>>

>> NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to

>> least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in

>> alphabetical order. "

>>

>> Ann:

>> It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you,

>> including your personal circumstances and your full medical history.

>> The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your

>> cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should

>> allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right

>> now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not

>> normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in

>> all

>> things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to

>> problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you

>> can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the

>> systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the

>> reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

>>

>> I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate

>> reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when

>> compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a

>> stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse

>> pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions.

>> Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine

>> is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure

>> over a

>> period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will

>> be standardised over time.

>>

>> When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful

>> to

>> know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all

>> readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and

>> change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood

>> pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected.

>> Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making

>> several readings during the course of the day (try to make the

>> readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log

>> that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety

>> associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is

>> abnormal', and other such natural fears.

>>

>> Kind regards,

>> Jeff

>>

>> On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

>>

>>

>>> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

>>> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in

>>> divided

>>> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals

>>> exclusively

>>> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium

>>> Deficient.

>>> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I

>>> personally

>>> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms

>>> and

>>> I believe easier on the stomach.

>>>

>>> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete

>>> CoQ10

>>> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on

>>> Lipitor, I

>>> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I

>>> could

>>> handle to limit most palpitations.

>>>

>>> Steve

>>>

>>> fortviewlodge wrote:

>>>

>>>> Hello to all,

>>>>

>>>> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

>>>>

>>> have fast

>>>

>>>> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

>>>>

>>> went

>>>

>>>> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

>>>> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

>>>>

>>> Cardicor

>>>

>>>> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

>>>>

>>>> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

>>>>

>>> Plus

>>>

>>>> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

>>>>

>>> one give

>>>

>>>> me advice, I feel im going mad.

>>>>

>>>> Thanks

>>>>

>>>> Ann

>>>>

>>>>

>>> --

>>>

>>> Steve - dudescholar4@...

>>>

>>> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

>>> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

>>>

>>> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

>>> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------------

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Hello Kay.Thank you for your kind words. My interest is in seeing some more thoughtful approaches being applied by self-help groups such as this one. The medical literature is strewn with ideas that have not attracted mainstream opinion and the confusion of medics is mirrored in this group, which is to be expected. I would like to see a repository of peer-reviewed knowledge for the lay-person, so that we can discover this information easily and have it put into everyday terminology so that a degree in Medical English is not required to understand the information. Medical information of high quality can be very hard to come by, and is often costly.There is hope for the future and public (and free) access to legitimate and high quality scientific research, is finally getting a boost from organisations modelled along the lines of the Public Library of Science (PLoS) and I hope that we could see a version for non academic people. Yes, getting off the medications, which we are told we have to take by our doctors, is a good start to feeling better. I wont suggest that we do not need them but the alternatives look increasingly attractive if we do not have to visit a doctor nor pay over thousands of dollars in prescription fees. You will know your own body best and if you stop one medication at a time, you may be able to evaluate its effect. If you stop them all at once and still feel bad, you wont know which medication was responsible.Kind regards,JeffOn 15 Nov 2008, at 13:41, kay graham wrote:Jeff....thank you again for such an informative post. Indeed a saver. There are so many variables that it is hard to pick out which is the culprit. I stopped having palpatations when I stopped the statins but I see on the list that anemia is another cause....I was anemic and have been having iron infusions over the last few mons. Actually there are several items on your list that I was going through and as I stabilize lots of things are shifting in my body. Myself I am trying to get off most meds and giving my body a chance to do what it can do. Thanks again for another chapter of what I call my "Jeff Info File" .....KayFrom: Jeff Cable <jeffjcable (DOT) co.uk>Lipitor Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:36:44 AMSubject: Re: Palpitations and VeparamilSteve:One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature of the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.The medical trainin g and experiences of one clinician, will help to shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to make a statement in isolation such as "your doctor should have recommended magnesium", in a manner that suggest this was some sort of universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations. If there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science does not appear to support that proposition. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.htmlThe differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which I have quoted from below:"Table 1Differential Diagnosis of PalpitationsArrhythmiasAtrial fibrillation/flutterBradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenousblock or sinus node dysfunctionBradycardia-tachycardia syndrome(sick sinus syndrome)Multifocal atrial tachycardiaPremature supraventricularor ventricular contractionsSinus tachycardia or arrhythmiaSupraventricular tachycardiaVentricular tachycardiaWolff-Parkinson-White syndromePsychiatric causesAnxiety disorderPanic attacksDrugs and medicationsAlcoholCaffeineCertain prescription and over-the-counteragents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,theophylline, beta agonists)Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)TobaccoNonarrhythmic cardiac causesAtrial or ventricular septal defectCardiomyopathyCongenital heart diseaseCongestive heart failureMitral valve prolapsePacemaker-mediated tachycardiaPericarditisValvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)Extracardiac causesAnemiaElectrolyte imbalanceFeverHyperthyroidismHypoglycemiaHypovolemiaPheochromocytomaPulmonary diseaseVasovagal syndromeNOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in alphabetical order."Ann:It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you, including your personal circumstances and your full medical history. The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in all things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions. Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure over a period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will be standardised over time.When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful to know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected. Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making several readings during the course of the day (try to make the readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is abnormal', and other such natural fears.Kind regards,JeffOn 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals > exclusively> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms > and> I believe easier on the stomach.>> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete > CoQ10> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could> handle to limit most palpitations.>> Steve>> fortviewlodge wrote:> >> >> > Hello to all,> >> > Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started > have fast> > heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I > went> > to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very> > normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on > Cardicor> > and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,> >> > The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis > Plus> > which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any > one give> > me advice, I feel im going mad.> >> > Thanks> >> > Ann> >> -- >> Steve - dudescholar4basicmail (DOT) net>> ; Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html>> "If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march> to truth we must still march on." --Stopford >> ------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

I suggest the following pubmed search " magnesium arrhythmias " .

From a practical position in how supplemental magnesium has affected

individuals with palpitations, individuals who have seen their doctors,

doctors who may or may not be aware of the incomplete list below, and

all ended up on some form of beta blocker which was ultimately no

solution at all, I would recommending doing and have done myself a web

search with keywords " palpitations low magnesium " substituting

palpitations with such alternatives as " PVC OR PVCs " , " PAC OR PACs " ,

" arrhythmias " , etc. There is a large experience base with magnesium and

the fact that Americans generally are deficient as well as the fact that

the magnesium content of US farmed produced is going down factor in.

Then there is the list, PeopleWithPVCs which is full of

people with arrhythmias who HAVE SEEN THEIR DOCTORS and received mostly

useless information on how to resolve them. The typical response from a

doctor who is unable to resolve arrhythmias with beta blocker is that

this isn't a problem, even at 1000s of events a day, and to just live

with it and stop worrying about nothing.

Jeff,

It is also my experience that doctors, medical researchers, etc., are

just as certain to make claims in absolute terms, claims that time often

throws away as knowledge advances.

It is also my experience that if a solution doesn't involve a

prescription drug, the only advise that a doctor will give is to

" exercise " , " eat right " (whatever that means - he/she will certainly not

only not be an expert on nutrition, but give bad advise " , or see another

doctor for a " prescription antidepressant " .

Now, if your contention is that to give advise in these forums requires

one only to refer to large published studies and to ignore clinical

experiences because they aren't double blind, well, good luck with that.

I'm reasonably sure I'm on a solid foundation when I note that most

Americans are magnesium deficient. We can jump into the issue of

circulating serum magnesium, magnesium stores, bound/free, etc. Or we

can debate if US grown produce is really lower in magnesium than

historically or visit the average magnesium consumption with changes in

foods eaten over the decades and how it correlates with heart disease.

All such discussions most likely would require the kind of rigor to

satisfy you that only 100s of millions of dollars spent might achieve

for each particular question asked.

There's also the issue of lots of personal reports of magnesium

resolving these kinds of problems. I have no doubt that the list below

are some causes, but for most people a trial of magnesium is an easy,

quick, and almost immediately effective solution with very limited

downside considering that at the very least, they will be correcting a,

statistically speaking, magnesium deficiency caused from poor nutrition

generally in todays " advanced " food sciences era.

I cannot believe how much time I wasted on cardiologists over PVCs when

Lipitor was the cause and magnesium and CoQ10 was the solution for me.

I highly doubt that if I were to take Lipitor for the first time today

and get PVCs as a result, there is A CARDIOLOGIST in the whole STATE OF

UTAH that would find the Lipitor at fault and while some might agree to

switch the drug to another similar drug, none will agree that the drug

was a cause at all. Most will assert both that Statins don't lower

CoQ10 but if they do, reduced CoQ10 doesn't cause problems and form of

heart problems. I had one cardiologist state most emphatically that

CoQ10 was dangerous and no one should ever be taking it. When I found

Magnesium, I noted my dramatic improvement to my cardiologist and a

" light " kind of came on for him. But, do you think it safe for him to

recommend to his next similar patients to try magnesium when that's not

" usual and customary " instead of writing up a prescription for a beta

blocker, perhaps a newer more expensive one that he happens to have

samples for, a prescription that most like will never work but it it

provides some relief, a relief that often is merely lowering ones heart

rate and blood pressure so that the problems is no longer felt?

I have wondered Jeff why you are in such groups if the only

recommendation you might add is to do what your doctor tells you. You

obviously don't expect to discover any personally useful information in

these forums that you cannot get from searching PubMed and you don't

find valuable any information that hasn't been published and the

abstract made available on PubMed. That doesn't included the stuff that

really has research done that doctors deny exists at all.

Doctors generally ignore nutrition as an issue with almost perfect

blinders, a failing that is inexcusable.

Steve - The Pragmatic Cynic.

Jeff Cable wrote:

> Steve:

> One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed

> around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which

> people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature of

> the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I

> don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are

> seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of

> iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

>

> The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to

> shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to

> make a statement in isolation such as " your doctor should have

> recommended magnesium " , in a manner that suggest this was some sort of

> universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see

> Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations. If

> there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please

> educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that

> depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science

> does not appear to support that proposition.

>

> http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

>

> The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which

> I have quoted from below:

>

> " Table 1

> Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

> Arrhythmias

> Atrial fibrillation/flutter

> Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

> block or sinus node dysfunction

> Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

> (sick sinus syndrome)

> Multifocal atrial tachycardia

> Premature supraventricular

> or ventricular contractions

> Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

> Supraventricular tachycardia

> Ventricular tachycardia

> Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

> Psychiatric causes

> Anxiety disorder

> Panic attacks

> Drugs and medications

> Alcohol

> Caffeine

> Certain prescription and over-the-counter

> agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

> theophylline, beta agonists)

> Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

> Tobacco

> Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

> Atrial or ventricular septal defect

> Cardiomyopathy

> Congenital heart disease

> Congestive heart failure

> Mitral valve prolapse

> Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

> Pericarditis

> Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

> Extracardiac causes

> Anemia

> Electrolyte imbalance

> Fever

> Hyperthyroidism

> Hypoglycemia

> Hypovolemia

> Pheochromocytoma

> Pulmonary disease

> Vasovagal syndrome

>

> NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to

> least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in

> alphabetical order. "

>

> Ann:

> It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you,

> including your personal circumstances and your full medical history.

> The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your

> cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should

> allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right

> now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not

> normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in all

> things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to

> problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you

> can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the

> systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the

> reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

>

> I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate

> reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when

> compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a

> stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse

> pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions.

> Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine

> is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure over a

> period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will

> be standardised over time.

>

> When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful to

> know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all

> readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and

> change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood

> pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected.

> Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making

> several readings during the course of the day (try to make the

> readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log

> that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety

> associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is

> abnormal', and other such natural fears.

>

> Kind regards,

> Jeff

>

> On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

>

>> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

>> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided

>> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals

>> exclusively

>> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.

>> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally

>> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms

>> and

>> I believe easier on the stomach.

>>

>> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete

>> CoQ10

>> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I

>> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could

>> handle to limit most palpitations.

>>

>> Steve

>>

>> fortviewlodge wrote:

>>>

>>> Hello to all,

>>>

>>> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

>> have fast

>>> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

>> went

>>> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

>>> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

>> Cardicor

>>> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

>>>

>>> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

>> Plus

>>> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

>> one give

>>> me advice, I feel im going mad.

>>>

>>> Thanks

>>>

>>> Ann

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

[Guest guest]

phine,

Your story is extremely common on the PeopleWithPVCs

email list.

Steve

J.Keliipio wrote:

> Hello Jeff,

> Some years ago, I began having heart palpitations. At that time I was

> beefing up on my calcium because

> the scare at that time was that if I didn't take my calcium, I would

> have osteoporosis. I even had a bone

> scan where it showed all those spots where the bone in my spine was

> supposedly wearing away.

> Scary!! So I began taking calcium supplements like 1000 mgs per day.

> Soon you know it, I began having heart palpitations. They were so

> pronounced and unusual that

> I went to have it checked out by my doctor who then referred me to the

> cardiologist. I was diagnosed

> with mitral valve prolapse and was told to take a beta blocker whenever

> I felt the palpitations. But the drug didn't help.

> So I went back to see the cardiologist. This time he advised me to drink

> more water and to consider

> taking SLO mag. I began drinking more water, stopped taking my calcium

> and began taking a magnesium

> supplement every night and LO and BEHOLD, those palpitations eventually

> subsided. WOW.

> I later learned that a large part of the population is magnesium

> deficient (which I was since I was not a regular beef eater).

>

> phine

--

Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

" If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

[Guest guest]

> Jeff,

>

> I suggest the following pubmed search " magnesium arrhythmias " .

>

Done: Nothing was a standout recommendation, within the context that

you are promoting. There were two papers detailing an increase in

prolonging aspects of the cardiac cycle with a concomitant decrease in

automaticity. These findings were the result of intravenous doses of

Magnesium. I was rather hoping to learn about the mechanism by which

Magnesium effected the change. I checked the archives of the Medicine

branch of the PLoS, using the advanced search and nothing was

available when searching for an association between Magnesium and

cardiac arrhythmia, under the cardio-vascular system.

Because your numbers seem large, I did do a quick Google search on

Palpitations. I was expecting to see Magnesium listed as one of the

causes, because you seem to think that Magnesium deficiency is

widespread in the USA. (more of which, anon) It is a fair bet that

when something is widely known, it will be standard fare among those

who purport to know what they are doing, with regard to that

particular something. Having searched PubMed and PLoS (Medicine)

without turning up anything substantial to support your assertion, I

picked the top 10 hits from Google and my search term was

Palpitations. I figured that any exposition on the aetiology or the

management and treatment of palpitations, would surely reference

Magnesium.

You may be surprised to learn that not even the USA-centric sites made

any mention of Magnesium, when discussing the causes of

palpitations... even the august Mayo Clinic pages did not mention it.

If the USA is a nation whose populations are Magnesium deficient and

Magnesium is a causative agent for palpitations, I would have expected

to see rather more mention of it than... well, none at all. As an

aside, Magnesium is found in hard drinking water and only the

southeast portion of the USA has access to soft drinking water. One

could expect an increase in palpitations caused by Magnesium

deficiency, in the southeast when compared to the rest of the USA. To

my knowledge, there is no such comparison.

Large concentrations of Magnesium can be found in unprocessed grains,

leafy green vegetables, nuts, peas, beans, fruits and hard water. All

unprocessed foods contain Magnesium. For comparison purposes in

research studies, the population of the UK is often thought of as

comparable to the people in the USA. The diet is broadly similar as is

the lifestyle. No mention of magnesium deficiency in British

populations, as yet. It would seem that Americans have access to

sufficient dietary Magnesium. Even Merck & Co, when discussing

palpitations on their web pages, do not mention Magnesium and drug

companies are almost bound to mention anything which they can package

and sell at vast profits. If Magnesium deficiency was a significant

risk in cardio-vascular health, I have to ask myself how Merck and the

Mayo Clinic have missed that fact.

> From a practical position in how supplemental magnesium has affected

> individuals with palpitations, individuals who have seen their

> doctors,

> doctors who may or may not be aware of the incomplete list below, and

> all ended up on some form of beta blocker which was ultimately no

> solution at all, I would recommending doing and have done myself a web

> search with keywords " palpitations low magnesium " substituting

> palpitations with such alternatives as " PVC OR PVCs " , " PAC OR PACs " ,

> " arrhythmias " , etc. There is a large experience base with magnesium

> and

> the fact that Americans generally are deficient as well as the fact

> that

> the magnesium content of US farmed produced is going down factor in.

>

Yes, it was revealing in that a site called, 'Magnesium, was all that

Google turned up. It is a tautology that arrhythmias will involve

either or both PACs & PVCs for any disturbance of the cardiac cycle

will induce compensations. FWIW, being aware of the heartbeat without

any appreciable abnormality is also known. The cardiac cycle is

sensitive to many forms of conduction defect that do not have their

genesis in Magnesium metabolism.

> Then there is the list, PeopleWithPVCs which is full

> of

> people with arrhythmias who HAVE SEEN THEIR DOCTORS and received

> mostly

> useless information on how to resolve them. The typical response

> from a

> doctor who is unable to resolve arrhythmias with beta blocker is that

> this isn't a problem, even at 1000s of events a day, and to just live

> with it and stop worrying about nothing.

>

This interests me. If the Magnesium/palpitation connection is known

about because of the marked deficiency in the USA diet, how does it

happen that people who have seen their doctors, who would know of the

deficiency and its effects, " receive mostly useless information " ? It

makes no sense to me. During my working life I worked in the USA for a

while and I was always impressed by the work of the American Heart

Association with regard to emergency care of the cardiac patient as

delivered by the paramedic/EMT services. What impressed me was not the

fact that the AHA guidelines were sometimes wrong (which they were)

but that the guidelines were applied across the USA. It meant that in

one year, a huge amount of information was collated and any action

could remedy a bad situation immediately, across the whole of the USA.

I have finally managed to dig up a reference to a meta-analysis of all

research involving Magnesium used to treat an arrhythmia (in this

case... Atrial Fibrillation) which is a well known arrhythmia that

occurs frequently. Follow this link:

http://www.bestbets.org/bets/bet.php?id=615

" Clinical Bottom Line: While the literature on magnesium prophylaxis

and non-cardiac surgical literature on magnesium therapy for atrial

fibrillation suggests that magnesium may be of benefit, there are

currently no studies in post-cardiac surgery atrial fibrillation to

support the use of magnesium therapy " .

> Jeff,

>

> It is also my experience that doctors, medical researchers, etc., are

> just as certain to make claims in absolute terms, claims that time

> often

> throws away as knowledge advances.

>

You would expect genuinely new knowledge to either add to existing

knowledge and modify behaviour or to replace existing knowledge and

modify behaviour... wouldn't you? In a scientific community, making

unsubstantiated claims is not permitted. Proof has to found for any

hypothesis or the hypothesis becomes falsified and abandoned.

> It is also my experience that if a solution doesn't involve a

> prescription drug, the only advise that a doctor will give is to

> " exercise " , " eat right " (whatever that means - he/she will certainly

> not

> only not be an expert on nutrition, but give bad advise " , or see

> another

> doctor for a " prescription antidepressant " .

>

Prescription antidepressant? Nonsense! Using your body is the

mechanism which keeps it active. Lay on your bed every day, eat what

you like and only go to the mall in a palanquin, carried by four

beautiful women, and you will soon find that your muscles atrophy, as

will your bones because there would be no need for them. 'Exercise'

can be as little as a short daily walk; it does not have to mean a 3

hour work-out every day in the gymnasium. Eat right is another

imprecation that is easy to understand. No one will stop you eating

Mcs every day, if that is your choice. You do need to understand

that a varied diet is likely to supply more of your nutritional needs.

when your doctor says " eat right " he is hoping that you will

understand that eating anything to excess, is likely to harm your body.

The prescription drug thing is as much to do with the patient psyche

as it is to do with the prescribing medic. When patients visit the

doctor, they hope to be treated. Most minor ailments fall into the

category of self-limiting diseases. that is, if you do nothing, they

will clear up without any intervention by the doctor or the patient.

So you have an influenza like series of symptoms that are making you

feel miserable and you see the doctor. How many people will walk out

of his office happy to have been told that they will feel much better

in two weeks time? I would not be surprised to find that many would be

angry, if they did not receive some magic potion, as well as the

advice drink plenty of fluids, keep warm and rest.

> Now, if your contention is that to give advise in these forums

> requires

> one only to refer to large published studies and to ignore clinical

> experiences because they aren't double blind, well, good luck with

> that.

>

My position is this: Advice given in these forums is going to be based

on personal experience (anecdote) personal bias (it worked for me) and

poorly understood mechanisms. On that basis, I would question the

utility of the advice and I was arguing for a better method of

dispensing useful information. I ask you in all seriousness, if you

gave advice in these forums, that was followed by a person who needed

the help at the time and they religiously followed our advice, would

you think it fair if they sued you for subsequent damage to their

health and would you stand up in court and admit that you had advised

them, knowing the penalties would be severe?

In the UK, if you act as if you are a doctor and someone suffers harm

as a direct result of your activities, you can expect your acts to be

judged by the standard with which a trained doctor would have been

judged. Dispensing medical advice, when unqualified and without

knowing anything about the unique medical history of the person whom

you want to advise, seems to me to be a foolish act, if I were to put

the best face on it and a dumb and dangerous act, if I were to be less

kind.

> I'm reasonably sure I'm on a solid foundation when I note that most

> Americans are magnesium deficient.

>

My cursory researches do not support your assertion. Being " reasonably

sure " is an admission that you do not KNOW. Belief is no substitute

for factual data.

> We can jump into the issue of

> circulating serum magnesium, magnesium stores, bound/free, etc. Or we

> can debate if US grown produce is really lower in magnesium than

> historically or visit the average magnesium consumption with changes

> in

> foods eaten over the decades and how it correlates with heart disease.

> All such discussions most likely would require the kind of rigor to

> satisfy you that only 100s of millions of dollars spent might achieve

> for each particular question asked.

>

The issue of circulating serum Magnesium, stores, bound and free is

a red herring. It has no place in the discussion if the use of

Magnesium to reduce or prevent cardiac arrhythmias is not widely

accepted knowledge within the medical profession.

The point which you appear to be making is that I wont be satisfied

with guesstimates and the evidence which I seek would be far too

costly to obtain so... it is best not to ask the question. Have I

interpreted the foregoing paragraph correctly?

> There's also the issue of lots of personal reports of magnesium

> resolving these kinds of problems. I have no doubt that the list below

> are some causes, but for most people a trial of magnesium is an easy,

> quick, and almost immediately effective solution with very limited

> downside considering that at the very least, they will be correcting

> a,

> statistically speaking, magnesium deficiency caused from poor

> nutrition

> generally in todays " advanced " food sciences era.

>

Personal reports don't really count because the reporter is not

impartial. It may be that they are ascribing some effect to the

coincidental use of a Magnesium supplement, when the reality ma be

different. Impartial observation is more useful in this respect. There

is not a wish for something to work and it can be seen working... or

not, whatever the case may be. A slightly frivolous example but I hope

that it makes the point... Headaches can be cured by decapitation. It

never fails and observers can say it surely worked for the plaintiff

never complained of a headache thereafter. The example is one way in

which people can be mislead into drawing erroneous conclusions from

the available information.

> I cannot believe how much time I wasted on cardiologists over PVCs

> when

> Lipitor was the cause and magnesium and CoQ10 was the solution for me.

> I highly doubt that if I were to take Lipitor for the first time today

> and get PVCs as a result, there is A CARDIOLOGIST in the whole STATE

> OF

> UTAH that would find the Lipitor at fault and while some might agree

> to

> switch the drug to another similar drug, none will agree that the drug

> was a cause at all.

>

That is your experience. I support the proposition that statins

deplete CoQ10 but that is because I have read the science and the

results of the depletion from eminent scientists in their own field.

The work of Langsjoen is legendary when it comes to describing

CoQ10 deficiency. The work of Bruce Ames is widely known when it comes

to cellular metabolism in the presence of a heme a deficiency. The

mevalonate metabolic pathway id where cholesterol synthesis is

interfered with by statins... early on in the pathway and reading the

biochemistry, one can see the effect on other important processes that

are vital to the living organism. It is not about one individual

declaiming something on the basis of their personal experience. It is

easily readable and reproducible science that determines whether there

is any support for the proposition, on my behalf.

> Most will assert both that Statins don't lower

> CoQ10 but if they do, reduced CoQ10 doesn't cause problems and form of

> heart problems. I had one cardiologist state most emphatically that

> CoQ10 was dangerous and no one should ever be taking it.

>

Send them a link to the work of Perter Langsjoen.

> When I found

> Magnesium, I noted my dramatic improvement to my cardiologist and a

> " light " kind of came on for him. But, do you think it safe for him to

> recommend to his next similar patients to try magnesium when that's

> not

> " usual and customary " instead of writing up a prescription for a beta

> blocker, perhaps a newer more expensive one that he happens to have

> samples for, a prescription that most like will never work but it it

> provides some relief, a relief that often is merely lowering ones

> heart

> rate and blood pressure so that the problems is no longer felt?

>

That is your specific case and you should not extend it to the general

case just because it worked for you. If you were prepared to pay

damages, in a law suit for any damage that your advice wrought on any

person who followed it, then it may be justifiable, except I would say

that it is unethical to offer advice when you are not in full

possession of the facts and cannot explain the facts to the person who

is considering following your advice. This speaks to the the very

heart of the issue of informed consent.

> I have wondered Jeff why you are in such groups if the only

> recommendation you might add is to do what your doctor tells you. You

> obviously don't expect to discover any personally useful information

> in

> these forums that you cannot get from searching PubMed and you don't

> find valuable any information that hasn't been published and the

> abstract made available on PubMed. That doesn't included the stuff

> that

> really has research done that doctors deny exists at all.

>

Since you wonder, let me satisfy our curiosity. More than three

decades ago, I agreed to live by a code of well-defined ethics. I

still act as if I am bound by them. I am currently helping a statin

casualty to formulate a coherent case so that they may obtain justice

for the harm done to them. Frequenting forums such as this, is one

method by which I can become more aware of the issues relating to

statins. I run an e-petition which will be sent to the WHO and I am

currently writing up the paper that will hopefully provoke a global

moratorium on prescribing statins. My ethical boundaries do not let me

pass by the kind of things which you had written, without making any

comment. As it is, Ann may well follow your advice. I am just offering

another view-point, in the interests of balance.

> Doctors generally ignore nutrition as an issue with almost perfect

> blinders, a failing that is inexcusable.

>

Steve, many things are inexcusable but sadly... I have never met a

perfect human being so I expect to see more inexcusable things during

my lifetime.

Kind regards,

Jeff

> Steve - The Pragmatic Cynic.

>

> Jeff Cable wrote:

> > Steve:

> > One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed

> > around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which

> > people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic

> nature of

> > the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I

> > don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who

> are

> > seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of

> > iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

> >

> > The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to

> > shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to

> > make a statement in isolation such as " your doctor should have

> > recommended magnesium " , in a manner that suggest this was some

> sort of

> > universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see

> > Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of

> palpitations. If

> > there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please

> > educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that

> > depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science

> > does not appear to support that proposition.

> >

> > http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

> >

> > The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1,

> which

> > I have quoted from below:

> >

> > " Table 1

> > Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

> > Arrhythmias

> > Atrial fibrillation/flutter

> > Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

> > block or sinus node dysfunction

> > Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

> > (sick sinus syndrome)

> > Multifocal atrial tachycardia

> > Premature supraventricular

> > or ventricular contractions

> > Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

> > Supraventricular tachycardia

> > Ventricular tachycardia

> > Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

> > Psychiatric causes

> > Anxiety disorder

> > Panic attacks

> > Drugs and medications

> > Alcohol

> > Caffeine

> > Certain prescription and over-the-counter

> > agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

> > theophylline, beta agonists)

> > Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

> > Tobacco

> > Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

> > Atrial or ventricular septal defect

> > Cardiomyopathy

> > Congenital heart disease

> > Congestive heart failure

> > Mitral valve prolapse

> > Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

> > Pericarditis

> > Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

> > Extracardiac causes

> > Anemia

> > Electrolyte imbalance

> > Fever

> > Hyperthyroidism

> > Hypoglycemia

> > Hypovolemia

> > Pheochromocytoma

> > Pulmonary disease

> > Vasovagal syndrome

> >

> > NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common

> to

> > least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in

> > alphabetical order. "

> >

> > Ann:

> > It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you,

> > including your personal circumstances and your full medical history.

> > The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust

> your

> > cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should

> > allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right

> > now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not

> > normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in

> all

> > things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to

> > problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you

> > can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the

> > systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the

> > reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

> >

> > I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate

> > reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when

> > compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a

> > stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse

> > pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions.

> > Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine

> > is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure

> over a

> > period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will

> > be standardised over time.

> >

> > When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often

> useful to

> > know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all

> > readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect

> and

> > change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood

> > pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected.

> > Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making

> > several readings during the course of the day (try to make the

> > readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a

> log

> > that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety

> > associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is

> > abnormal', and other such natural fears.

> >

> > Kind regards,

> > Jeff

> >

> > On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

> >

> >> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

> >> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in

> divided

> >> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals

> >> exclusively

> >> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium

> Deficient.

> >> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I

> personally

> >> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed

> forms

> >> and

> >> I believe easier on the stomach.

> >>

> >> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete

> >> CoQ10

> >> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on

> Lipitor, I

> >> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I

> could

> >> handle to limit most palpitations.

> >>

> >> Steve

> >>

> >> fortviewlodge wrote:

> >>>

> >>> Hello to all,

> >>>

> >>> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

> >> have fast

> >>> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

> >> went

> >>> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were

> very

> >>> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

> >> Cardicor

> >>> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

> >>>

> >>> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

> >> Plus

> >>> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

> >> one give

> >>> me advice, I feel im going mad.

> >>>

> >>> Thanks

> >>>

> >>> Ann

>

> --

>

> Steve - dudescholar4@...

>

> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

>

> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

Yes, I learned later that taking calcium didn't help much to preserve

the bones of women in their 50s YET, doctors were recommending calcium

and not telling you that if there is excess in the blood, that it

could end up as " calcifications " in other parts of the body like the

arteries, breast, heart valves, get the picture? Plus when I used to

take mammograms, I noticed that my doctor would always schedule me for

a bone scan at the same time. I would never take the bone scan because

I didn't want to be exposed to more unnecessary radiation. But sure

enough, when I asked my doctor why she wanted me to take a bone scan,

she said that it would show her whether I should be taking a DRUG for

my bones!! Yuk!

I then asked her what were the chances of me, as an Hawaiian person

suffering from osteoporosis in my old age and she said it was small,

so I told her good then I won't be taking any more bone scans or

taking any DRUGS for my bones. Can you beat that? The bone scan would

have been used to get me to take a DRUG FOR LIFE! Talk about creating

problems when there are no problems. But that's the medical profession

for you, right? Always want to create another disease so that they

can push another drug.

// continued below //

>

> Hello phine.

> Women do lose bone mineral density as they advance in years. I was

> once involved in a global clinical trial involving bisphosphonates and

> we provided BMD measurements at the wrist, spine and hip, for all

> participants. A percentage of women fall into the group of fast bone

> mineral density losers. I recall that calcium supplementation did not

> affect the outcomes very much. You need vitamin D to absorb the

> calcium in any event.

>

Jeff,

If as you say, " what works for one person may not work for another

person because of massive differences in the many factors which are

variable. A single anecdotal data point should never be used to

construct a global treatment paradigm. " Then how is it that the

medical profession gets away with prescribing statin drugs to women

and the elderly, huh? How come they don't follow the logic that you

are using? What makes them so special that they can prescribe drugs to

people that they shouldn't be prescribing them to? All I can say is,

Thank God for the internet, if it wasn't for these discussion groups,

I would have never known what I know today about how crooked and

dishonest the medical profession has been to us.

phine

>

> My perspective here was not to slate the use of Magnesium, nor to say

> that the point of view held by Steve was 'wrong'. It is just that the

> medical literature is not particularly forthcoming on this matter and

> what works for one person may not work for any other person because of

> massive differences in the many factors which are variable. A single

> anecdotal data point should never be used to construct a global

> treatment paradigm. I not only want to learn about and see just how

> Magnesium works it magic, I want to know how to apply its efficacy to

> the general population.

>

> Kind regards,

> Jeff

>

[Guest guest]

When Dr. Weston Price traveled the world back in the 1930s to study 14

native cultures including 2 from Europe, his conclusion was the same

for all of the groups that he visited. So long as they ate their

traditional foods and lived their traditional lifestyle and did not

indulge in the modern processed foods diet, they remained strong and

healthy and resistant to diseases. But as soon as they succumbed to

the modern processed foods diet, they began to suffer from the modern

degenerative diseases. He even tells of a story where 2 white people

were traveling by foot across Canada and one of the men became blind

and nearly walked into a mother grizzly bear and her cub. Fortunately,

there was a Native person stalking the bear who came upon the blind

man and KNEW exactly what the blind man was suffering from. The Native

mind you had NO modern day clinical training and no peer-reviewed

knowledge, just his wisdom passed down to him from generations before

him. So the Native person goes to a nearby stream, makes a small dam

across it, and catches a fish. He brings the fish back to the man and

tells the man to eat the entire fish head which the man did. In 2 days

the man could see again.

What a deep shame that we have been so misdirected in our health care

such that we have to depend on toxic drugs to health us.

phine

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hello to all,

> > > >

> > > > Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

> > > have fast

> > > > heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

> > > went

> > > > to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were

> > very

> > > > normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

> > > Cardicor

> > > > and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

> > > >

> > > > The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

> > > Plus

> > > > which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

> > > one give

> > > > me advice, I feel im going mad.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks

> > > >

> > > > Ann

> > > >

> > > --

> > >

> > > Steve - dudescholar4@...

> > >

> > > ; Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

> > > http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

> > >

> > > " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

> > > to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

It falls under "electrolyte imbalance" in the table you posted.

magnesium level is checked for by my GP, renal specialist and

cardiologist.

Bob

, Ch.E.

******************

Jeff Cable wrote:

Steve:

One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature of the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to make a statement in isolation such as "your doctor should have recommended magnesium", in a manner that suggest this was some sort of universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations. If there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science does not appear to support that proposition.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which I have quoted from below:

"Table 1

Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

Arrhythmias

Atrial fibrillation/flutter

Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

block or sinus node dysfunction

Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

(sick sinus syndrome)

Multifocal atrial tachycardia

Premature supraventricular

or ventricular contractions

Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

Supraventricular tachycardia

Ventricular tachycardia

Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

Psychiatric causes

Anxiety disorder

Panic attacks

Drugs and medications

Alcohol

Caffeine

Certain prescription and over-the-counter

agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

theophylline, beta agonists)

Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

Tobacco

Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

Atrial or ventricular septal defect

Cardiomyopathy

Congenital heart disease

Congestive heart failure

Mitral valve prolapse

Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

Pericarditis

Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

Extracardiac causes

Anemia

Electrolyte imbalance

Fever

Hyperthyroidism

Hypoglycemia

Hypovolemia

Pheochromocytoma

Pulmonary disease

Vasovagal syndrome

NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in alphabetical order."

Ann:

It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you, including your personal circumstances and your full medical history. The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in all things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions. Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure over a period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will be standardised over time.

When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful to know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected. Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making several readings during the course of the day (try to make the readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is abnormal', and other such natural fears.

Kind regards,

Jeff

On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided

doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals exclusively

with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.

The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally

use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms and

I believe easier on the stomach.

Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete CoQ10

which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I

had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could

handle to limit most palpitations.

Steve

fortviewlodge wrote:

Hello to all,

Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

have fast

heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

went

to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

Cardicor

and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

Plus

which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

one give

me advice, I feel im going mad.

Thanks

Ann

-- Steve - dudescholar4@...

Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

"If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

to truth we must still march on." --Stopford

------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Bob, Thanks for your response.

When blood is sampled for 'U & E', it is generally taken to mean urea

and electrolytes. The electrolytes of interest are sodium and

potassium. Magnesium does not tend to be taken into account when

correcting electrolyte imbalances in emergency medicine. The table was

a direct quotation from the linked page and has listed the items in

order from the commonest to the least common factor; thought to being

the causative agent of palpitations.

In very general terms, Na & K+ imbalances are very occasionally seen,

where they do have a role that presages cardiac arrhythmias. A

correction of the Na/K+ balance will usually return the arrhythmia to

sinus rhythm, if electrolyte imbalance was the sole cause of the

disordered rhythm. Of course, if the cause was multi-focal, then

multiple interventions will be required. It is a feature of

homeostasis that when an imbalance is detected, the body does what it

can to correct the imbalance, after a certain point is reached, other

mechanisms will be affected so where you catch the imbalance is

crucial to what the remedy will be and simple solutions never address

the effects that may result from the initial imbalance.

Whether you choose to view Magnesium as an electrolyte or deem it to

be a micro-nutrient (I am not saying it is unimportant) it does not

appear in the medical literature as a sole cause of palpitations and

therefore it will not be the sole answer to cardiac arrhythmias which

can be perceived as palpitations because of the inclusion of uni-focal

or multi-focal premature ventricular or atrial contractions. One could

argue that all electrical conduction faults would be based in

electrolyte imbalances but that is an over-simplification.

The position that electrolyte imbalance occupies, on the ordered list

of possible causes of palpitations, does not support the assertion

made by Steve when he stated that most Americans are Magnesium

deficient. If that were true and Magnesium was a major cause of

palpitations, it would appear listed as a cardinal cause (rather than

being hidden under the term 'electrolyte imbalance') and it would be

much further up the list than 'electrolyte imbalance' has been placed.

Without supporting literature and scientific evidence and proof, I

have no option but to conclude that the importance of Magnesium (in

the role of causing palpitations) is vanishingly small and the

importance being ascribed to it is being overstated by Steve. This was

where we came in and why I offered another viewpoint to Ann, in order

to introduce an element of balance. I am not selling anything and I am

not scoring points to net me a free vacation. The acceptance of any

meme, be they medical or any other type, requires a critical eye and

an appraisal that is as impartial as one can bring to bear on the

subject. Suspending our belief that medical doctors only do good

things and looking for real evidence, is one way in which we can stop

being dragged in directions that do not help us.

Kind regards,

Jeff

On 16 Nov 2008, at 13:38, wrote:

> Jeff,

>

> It falls under " electrolyte imbalance " in the table you posted.

> magnesium level is checked for by my GP, renal specialist and

> cardiologist.

>

> Bob

>

> , Ch.E.

> ******************

> Jeff Cable wrote:

>>

>> Steve:

>> One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed

>> around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which

>> people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature

>> of

>> the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I

>> don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are

>> seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of

>> iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

>>

>> The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to

>> shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to

>> make a statement in isolation such as " your doctor should have

>> recommended magnesium " , in a manner that suggest this was some sort

>> of

>> universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see

>> Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations.

>> If

>> there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please

>> educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that

>> depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science

>> does not appear to support that proposition.

>>

>> http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

>>

>> The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which

>> I have quoted from below:

>>

>> " Table 1

>> Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

>> Arrhythmias

>> Atrial fibrillation/flutter

>> Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

>> block or sinus node dysfunction

>> Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

>> (sick sinus syndrome)

>> Multifocal atrial tachycardia

>> Premature supraventricular

>> or ventricular contractions

>> Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

>> Supraventricular tachycardia

>> Ventricular tachycardia

>> Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

>> Psychiatric causes

>> Anxiety disorder

>> Panic attacks

>> Drugs and medications

>> Alcohol

>> Caffeine

>> Certain prescription and over-the-counter

>> agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

>> theophylline, beta agonists)

>> Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

>> Tobacco

>> Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

>> Atrial or ventricular septal defect

>> Cardiomyopathy

>> Congenital heart disease

>> Congestive heart failure

>> Mitral valve prolapse

>> Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

>> Pericarditis

>> Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

>> Extracardiac causes

>> Anemia

>> Electrolyte imbalance

>> Fever

>> Hyperthyroidism

>> Hypoglycemia

>> Hypovolemia

>> Pheochromocytoma

>> Pulmonary disease

>> Vasovagal syndrome

>>

>> NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to

>> least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in

>> alphabetical order. "

>>

>> Ann:

>> It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you,

>> including your personal circumstances and your full medical history.

>> The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your

>> cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should

>> allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right

>> now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not

>> normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in

>> all

>> things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to

>> problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you

>> can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the

>> systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the

>> reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

>>

>> I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate

>> reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when

>> compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a

>> stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse

>> pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions.

>> Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine

>> is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure

>> over a

>> period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will

>> be standardised over time.

>>

>> When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful

>> to

>> know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all

>> readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and

>> change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood

>> pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected.

>> Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making

>> several readings during the course of the day (try to make the

>> readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log

>> that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety

>> associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is

>> abnormal', and other such natural fears.

>>

>> Kind regards,

>> Jeff

>>

>> On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

>>

>>

>>> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

>>> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in

>>> divided

>>> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals

>>> exclusively

>>> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium

>>> Deficient.

>>> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I

>>> personally

>>> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms

>>> and

>>> I believe easier on the stomach.

>>>

>>> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete

>>> CoQ10

>>> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on

>>> Lipitor, I

>>> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I

>>> could

>>> handle to limit most palpitations.

>>>

>>> Steve

>>>

>>> fortviewlodge wrote:

>>>

>>>> Hello to all,

>>>>

>>>> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

>>>>

>>> have fast

>>>

>>>> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

>>>>

>>> went

>>>

>>>> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

>>>> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

>>>>

>>> Cardicor

>>>

>>>> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

>>>>

>>>> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

>>>>

>>> Plus

>>>

>>>> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

>>>>

>>> one give

>>>

>>>> me advice, I feel im going mad.

>>>>

>>>> Thanks

>>>>

>>>> Ann

>>>>

>>>>

>>> --

>>>

>>> Steve - dudescholar4@...

>>>

>>> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

>>> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

>>>

>>> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

>>> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>>>

>>>

>>>

>> ------------------------------------

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Hypomagnesemia

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/TOPIC274.HTM

Jeff Cable wrote:

> Bob, Thanks for your response.

>

> When blood is sampled for 'U & E', it is generally taken to mean urea

> and electrolytes. The electrolytes of interest are sodium and

> potassium. Magnesium does not tend to be taken into account when

> correcting electrolyte imbalances in emergency medicine. The table was

> a direct quotation from the linked page and has listed the items in

> order from the commonest to the least common factor; thought to being

> the causative agent of palpitations.

>

> In very general terms, Na & K+ imbalances are very occasionally seen,

> where they do have a role that presages cardiac arrhythmias. A

> correction of the Na/K+ balance will usually return the arrhythmia to

> sinus rhythm, if electrolyte imbalance was the sole cause of the

> disordered rhythm. Of course, if the cause was multi-focal, then

> multiple interventions will be required. It is a feature of

> homeostasis that when an imbalance is detected, the body does what it

> can to correct the imbalance, after a certain point is reached, other

> mechanisms will be affected so where you catch the imbalance is

> crucial to what the remedy will be and simple solutions never address

> the effects that may result from the initial imbalance.

>

> Whether you choose to view Magnesium as an electrolyte or deem it to

> be a micro-nutrient (I am not saying it is unimportant) it does not

> appear in the medical literature as a sole cause of palpitations and

> therefore it will not be the sole answer to cardiac arrhythmias which

> can be perceived as palpitations because of the inclusion of uni-focal

> or multi-focal premature ventricular or atrial contractions. One could

> argue that all electrical conduction faults would be based in

> electrolyte imbalances but that is an over-simplification.

>

> The position that electrolyte imbalance occupies, on the ordered list

> of possible causes of palpitations, does not support the assertion

> made by Steve when he stated that most Americans are Magnesium

> deficient. If that were true and Magnesium was a major cause of

> palpitations, it would appear listed as a cardinal cause (rather than

> being hidden under the term 'electrolyte imbalance') and it would be

> much further up the list than 'electrolyte imbalance' has been placed.

>

> Without supporting literature and scientific evidence and proof, I

> have no option but to conclude that the importance of Magnesium (in

> the role of causing palpitations) is vanishingly small and the

> importance being ascribed to it is being overstated by Steve. This was

> where we came in and why I offered another viewpoint to Ann, in order

> to introduce an element of balance. I am not selling anything and I am

> not scoring points to net me a free vacation. The acceptance of any

> meme, be they medical or any other type, requires a critical eye and

> an appraisal that is as impartial as one can bring to bear on the

> subject. Suspending our belief that medical doctors only do good

> things and looking for real evidence, is one way in which we can stop

> being dragged in directions that do not help us.

>

> Kind regards,

> Jeff

>

>

>

>

>

> On 16 Nov 2008, at 13:38, wrote:

>

>

>> Jeff,

>>

>> It falls under " electrolyte imbalance " in the table you posted.

>> magnesium level is checked for by my GP, renal specialist and

>> cardiologist.

>>

>> Bob

>>

>> , Ch.E.

>> ******************

>> Jeff Cable wrote:

>>

>>> Steve:

>>> One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed

>>> around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which

>>> people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature

>>> of

>>> the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I

>>> don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are

>>> seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of

>>> iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

>>>

>>> The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to

>>> shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to

>>> make a statement in isolation such as " your doctor should have

>>> recommended magnesium " , in a manner that suggest this was some sort

>>> of

>>> universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see

>>> Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations.

>>> If

>>> there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please

>>> educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that

>>> depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science

>>> does not appear to support that proposition.

>>>

>>> http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

>>>

>>> The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which

>>> I have quoted from below:

>>>

>>> " Table 1

>>> Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

>>> Arrhythmias

>>> Atrial fibrillation/flutter

>>> Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

>>> block or sinus node dysfunction

>>> Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

>>> (sick sinus syndrome)

>>> Multifocal atrial tachycardia

>>> Premature supraventricular

>>> or ventricular contractions

>>> Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

>>> Supraventricular tachycardia

>>> Ventricular tachycardia

>>> Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

>>> Psychiatric causes

>>> Anxiety disorder

>>> Panic attacks

>>> Drugs and medications

>>> Alcohol

>>> Caffeine

>>> Certain prescription and over-the-counter

>>> agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

>>> theophylline, beta agonists)

>>> Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

>>> Tobacco

>>> Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

>>> Atrial or ventricular septal defect

>>> Cardiomyopathy

>>> Congenital heart disease

>>> Congestive heart failure

>>> Mitral valve prolapse

>>> Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

>>> Pericarditis

>>> Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

>>> Extracardiac causes

>>> Anemia

>>> Electrolyte imbalance

>>> Fever

>>> Hyperthyroidism

>>> Hypoglycemia

>>> Hypovolemia

>>> Pheochromocytoma

>>> Pulmonary disease

>>> Vasovagal syndrome

>>>

>>> NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to

>>> least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in

>>> alphabetical order. "

>>>

>>> Ann:

>>> It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you,

>>> including your personal circumstances and your full medical history.

>>> The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your

>>> cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should

>>> allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right

>>> now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not

>>> normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in

>>> all

>>> things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to

>>> problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you

>>> can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the

>>> systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the

>>> reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

>>>

>>> I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate

>>> reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when

>>> compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a

>>> stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse

>>> pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions.

>>> Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine

>>> is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure

>>> over a

>>> period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will

>>> be standardised over time.

>>>

>>> When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful

>>> to

>>> know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all

>>> readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and

>>> change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood

>>> pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected.

>>> Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making

>>> several readings during the course of the day (try to make the

>>> readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log

>>> that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety

>>> associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is

>>> abnormal', and other such natural fears.

>>>

>>> Kind regards,

>>> Jeff

>>>

>>> On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

>>>> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in

>>>> divided

>>>> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals

>>>> exclusively

>>>> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium

>>>> Deficient.

>>>> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I

>>>> personally

>>>> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms

>>>> and

>>>> I believe easier on the stomach.

>>>>

>>>> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete

>>>> CoQ10

>>>> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on

>>>> Lipitor, I

>>>> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I

>>>> could

>>>> handle to limit most palpitations.

>>>>

>>>> Steve

>>>>

>>>> fortviewlodge wrote:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> Hello to all,

>>>>>

>>>>> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> have fast

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> went

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

>>>>> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> Cardicor

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

>>>>>

>>>>> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> Plus

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> one give

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> me advice, I feel im going mad.

>>>>>

>>>>> Thanks

>>>>>

>>>>> Ann

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> --

>>>>

>>>> Steve - dudescholar4@...

>>>>

>>>> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

>>>> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

>>>>

>>>> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

>>>> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>> ------------------------------------

>>>

>>>

[Guest guest]

EPA in Omega 3 fatty acids is anti-arrythmic.

Steve schrieb:

>

> Jeff,

>

> I suggest the following pubmed search " magnesium arrhythmias " .

>

> >From a practical position in how supplemental magnesium has affected

> individuals with palpitations, individuals who have seen their doctors,

> doctors who may or may not be aware of the incomplete list below, and

> all ended up on some form of beta blocker which was ultimately no

> solution at all, I would recommending doing and have done myself a web

> search with keywords " palpitations low magnesium " substituting

> palpitations with such alternatives as " PVC OR PVCs " , " PAC OR PACs " ,

> " arrhythmias " , etc. There is a large experience base with magnesium and

> the fact that Americans generally are deficient as well as the fact that

> the magnesium content of US farmed produced is going down factor in.

>

> Then there is the list, PeopleWithPVCs

> <mailto:PeopleWithPVCs%40> which is full of

> people with arrhythmias who HAVE SEEN THEIR DOCTORS and received mostly

> useless information on how to resolve them. The typical response from a

> doctor who is unable to resolve arrhythmias with beta blocker is that

> this isn't a problem, even at 1000s of events a day, and to just live

> with it and stop worrying about nothing.

>

> Jeff,

>

> It is also my experience that doctors, medical researchers, etc., are

> just as certain to make claims in absolute terms, claims that time often

> throws away as knowledge advances.

>

> It is also my experience that if a solution doesn't involve a

> prescription drug, the only advise that a doctor will give is to

> " exercise " , " eat right " (whatever that means - he/she will certainly not

> only not be an expert on nutrition, but give bad advise " , or see another

> doctor for a " prescription antidepressant " .

>

> Now, if your contention is that to give advise in these forums requires

> one only to refer to large published studies and to ignore clinical

> experiences because they aren't double blind, well, good luck with that.

>

> I'm reasonably sure I'm on a solid foundation when I note that most

> Americans are magnesium deficient. We can jump into the issue of

> circulating serum magnesium, magnesium stores, bound/free, etc. Or we

> can debate if US grown produce is really lower in magnesium than

> historically or visit the average magnesium consumption with changes in

> foods eaten over the decades and how it correlates with heart disease.

> All such discussions most likely would require the kind of rigor to

> satisfy you that only 100s of millions of dollars spent might achieve

> for each particular question asked.

>

> There's also the issue of lots of personal reports of magnesium

> resolving these kinds of problems. I have no doubt that the list below

> are some causes, but for most people a trial of magnesium is an easy,

> quick, and almost immediately effective solution with very limited

> downside considering that at the very least, they will be correcting a,

> statistically speaking, magnesium deficiency caused from poor nutrition

> generally in todays " advanced " food sciences era.

>

> I cannot believe how much time I wasted on cardiologists over PVCs when

> Lipitor was the cause and magnesium and CoQ10 was the solution for me.

> I highly doubt that if I were to take Lipitor for the first time today

> and get PVCs as a result, there is A CARDIOLOGIST in the whole STATE OF

> UTAH that would find the Lipitor at fault and while some might agree to

> switch the drug to another similar drug, none will agree that the drug

> was a cause at all. Most will assert both that Statins don't lower

> CoQ10 but if they do, reduced CoQ10 doesn't cause problems and form of

> heart problems. I had one cardiologist state most emphatically that

> CoQ10 was dangerous and no one should ever be taking it. When I found

> Magnesium, I noted my dramatic improvement to my cardiologist and a

> " light " kind of came on for him. But, do you think it safe for him to

> recommend to his next similar patients to try magnesium when that's not

> " usual and customary " instead of writing up a prescription for a beta

> blocker, perhaps a newer more expensive one that he happens to have

> samples for, a prescription that most like will never work but it it

> provides some relief, a relief that often is merely lowering ones heart

> rate and blood pressure so that the problems is no longer felt?

>

> I have wondered Jeff why you are in such groups if the only

> recommendation you might add is to do what your doctor tells you. You

> obviously don't expect to discover any personally useful information in

> these forums that you cannot get from searching PubMed and you don't

> find valuable any information that hasn't been published and the

> abstract made available on PubMed. That doesn't included the stuff that

> really has research done that doctors deny exists at all.

>

> Doctors generally ignore nutrition as an issue with almost perfect

> blinders, a failing that is inexcusable.

>

> Steve - The Pragmatic Cynic.

>

> Jeff Cable wrote:

> > Steve:

> > One of my concerns with internet garnered information that is passed

> > around in groups such as TL & HI, is both the certainty with which

> > people make claims that are unsubstantiated and the emphatic nature of

> > the claim that suggests that what is being stated must be correct. I

> > don't believe that it is particularly helpful to tell people, who are

> > seeking to educate themselves following what may be an episode of

> > iatrogenic harm, what their doctor should have done.

> >

> > The medical training and experiences of one clinician, will help to

> > shape the medical practitioner's viewpoint and it is a nonsense to

> > make a statement in isolation such as " your doctor should have

> > recommended magnesium " , in a manner that suggest this was some sort of

> > universal truth. It isn't. In the linked page, below, I do not see

> > Magnesium deficiency mentioned as a frequent cause of palpitations. If

> > there is a credible research hypothesis that I am unaware of, please

> > educate me and show me where the science supports the notion that

> > depleted Magnesium is a frequent cause of palpitations. The science

> > does not appear to support that proposition.

> >

> > http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html

> <http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050215/743.html>

> >

> > The differential diagnosis for palpitations is seen at Table 1, which

> > I have quoted from below:

> >

> > " Table 1

> > Differential Diagnosis of Palpitations

> > Arrhythmias

> > Atrial fibrillation/flutter

> > Bradycardia caused by advanced arteriovenous

> > block or sinus node dysfunction

> > Bradycardia-tachycardia syndrome

> > (sick sinus syndrome)

> > Multifocal atrial tachycardia

> > Premature supraventricular

> > or ventricular contractions

> > Sinus tachycardia or arrhythmia

> > Supraventricular tachycardia

> > Ventricular tachycardia

> > Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome

> > Psychiatric causes

> > Anxiety disorder

> > Panic attacks

> > Drugs and medications

> > Alcohol

> > Caffeine

> > Certain prescription and over-the-counter

> > agents (e.g., digitalis, phenothiazine,

> > theophylline, beta agonists)

> > Street drugs (e.g., cocaine)

> > Tobacco

> > Nonarrhythmic cardiac causes

> > Atrial or ventricular septal defect

> > Cardiomyopathy

> > Congenital heart disease

> > Congestive heart failure

> > Mitral valve prolapse

> > Pacemaker-mediated tachycardia

> > Pericarditis

> > Valvular disease (e.g., aortic insufficiency, stenosis)

> > Extracardiac causes

> > Anemia

> > Electrolyte imbalance

> > Fever

> > Hyperthyroidism

> > Hypoglycemia

> > Hypovolemia

> > Pheochromocytoma

> > Pulmonary disease

> > Vasovagal syndrome

> >

> > NOTE: The categories of palpitations are arranged from most common to

> > least common; within the categories, conditions are listed in

> > alphabetical order. "

> >

> > Ann:

> > It is not easy to advise you without knowing a lot more about you,

> > including your personal circumstances and your full medical history.

> > The internet would not be the ideal way to do this. If you trust your

> > cardiologist, then the tests that have just been carried out, should

> > allay any fears which you may have about your state of health right

> > now. Palpitations can be an unpleasant sensation because we are not

> > normally aware of our heart beat. Cardiologists are specialists in all

> > things to do with the cardio-vascular system. Where the solutions to

> > problems are suggested and you do not feel they are helping you, you

> > can opt to get a second opinion. The BP reading suggests that the

> > systolic reading could come down a little. If you are taking the

> > reading with an electronic device, you could consider this...

> >

> > I have never used an electronic device that produced an accurate

> > reading (except in cases where the patient is unconscious) when

> > compared with listening to the 5 Korotkoff sounds through a

> > stethoscope, noting any auscultatory gap and observing the pulse

> > pressure, while manually deflating a cuff of the correct dimensions.

> > Taking your own blood pressure readings with a self-operated machine

> > is likely to be useful for creating a log of the blood pressure over a

> > period of time, because the inherent errors of a single reading will

> > be standardised over time.

> >

> > When you are taking your blood pressure readings it is often useful to

> > know a separate value for lying down and standing up but as with all

> > readings of blood pressure, your mental state is likely to affect and

> > change these values. Anxiety can cause marked variations in blood

> > pressure values so all of the readings you measure may be affected.

> > Blood pressure readings vary according to the time of day and making

> > several readings during the course of the day (try to make the

> > readings at the same time each day) is another way to establish a log

> > that has some real value. It also removes much of the anxiety

> > associated with thoughts about 'what if I find something that is

> > abnormal', and other such natural fears.

> >

> > Kind regards,

> > Jeff

> >

> > On 14 Nov 2008, at 19:24, Steve wrote:

> >

> >> Your doctor should have recommended Magnesium. Palpitations are

> >> frequently caused by low magnesium. Getting 500-600 mg/day in divided

> >> doses was a frequent solution in the group which deals

> >> exclusively

> >> with this problem. The majority of Americans are Magnesium Deficient.

> >> The regular CMP doesn't check magnesium cellular levels. I personally

> >> use magnesium citrate because it is one of the better absorbed forms

> >> and

> >> I believe easier on the stomach.

> >>

> >> Palpations can come from being on statins as well as they deplete

> >> CoQ10

> >> which is needed for effective heart function. When I was on Lipitor, I

> >> had to take a LOT of CoQ10 in addition to as much magnesium as I could

> >> handle to limit most palpitations.

> >>

> >> Steve

> >>

> >> fortviewlodge wrote:

> >>>

> >>> Hello to all,

> >>>

> >>> Yesterday I was feeling great and then all of sudden I started

> >> have fast

> >>> heart beat and palpitations together this was very frightening, I

> >> went

> >>> to my cardiologist who did an ECG and bloods all of which were very

> >>> normal I do get a lot of palpitation a few months ago I was on

> >> Cardicor

> >>> and stopped it cause I was not feeling well on it,

> >>>

> >>> The cardiolist gave me Veparamil yesterday to take with Micardis

> >> Plus

> >>> which I currently take, my bp this morning was 110/60 , can any

> >> one give

> >>> me advice, I feel im going mad.

> >>>

> >>> Thanks

> >>>

> >>> Ann

>

> --

>

> Steve - dudescholar4@... <mailto:dudescholar4%40basicmail.net>

>

> Take World's Smallest Political Quiz at

> http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html

> <http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html>

>

> " If a thousand old beliefs were ruined on our march

> to truth we must still march on. " --Stopford

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

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