Re: Roots of poor eye contact

March 1, 2006

" I agree, too, about the stigma regarding mental illness. It's a huge

one and I'll bet it is in most, if not all, cultures, and among men

and women, but more so with men. "

I think that there are stereo types on both sides (male and female).

A man is meant to hold it together, be strong - not show emotions,

but also there is the stereo type that a woman should be emotional -

and that can prove difficult for women who are not good at showing

their emotions in the usual accepted way. What I am trying to point

out - are that there are always exceptions to the rules.

Crying in my family is not something done publicly if it can be

avoided - I've only seen my mother cry twice - once she didn't know I

was observing her (I was very young) and the second time she was

physically hurt (as well as in shock).

Also because of my tactile issues I learnt very quickly crying meant

physical contact (hugs) I did not want this. I could accept my mother

comforting me sometimes, but that had more to do with the rocking

chair :-) Mostly I would cry in my bed and rock myself - I still rock

in bed - it is comforting - I rock at the computer too :-) I keep the

rocking away from the public eye as much as possible too - I learnt

from a young age that it was connected to mental/emotional illness

(don't know where exactly I picked this up, but I heard it) I also

knew what happened to people who were considered either mentally or

emotionally ill - they got locked away - there was an assylum not far

from where I lived as a child- so very quickly I learnt rocking was

not acceptable, but I could not stop - so I decided I would do it in

private - ie bed. Bed has always felt a safe haven when I am alone in

it anyway (I say this because in the past my stimming in bed has

annoyed partners).

> >

> > " Also males are brought up to not really show emotion, or act tuff

> > such as the saying are you man enough?

> > >

> > > This is very true, especially among white men. I think to some

> > degree they've been trained from childhood to cut off their

feelings

> > and dissosociate. "

> >

> > I can assure you it is not just boys. In my family if a woman has

a

> > problem it was generally accepted that she should keep it to

herself

> > and deal with it herself - like if you're going to have a

breakdown,

> > do it quickly, quietely - in private and then get on with your

life

> > as soon as possible. I don't know if this advice was ever any

good to

> > anyone - I think it just taught people to supress their true

feelings

> > and put on a face (act) - but that is how some are brought up in

the

> > UK - stiff upper lip and all.

> >

> > For me personally to seek help outside the family was considered

bad

> > indeed - like some stigma attached to it - I think some of the

family

> > accept it now, but it is like an old fashioned belief of 'mental

> > illness' sort of thing - does anyone else get this?

> >

> >Oh, yes, I totally agree. I thought about it after I posted.

Women

> just have different pressures to not show emotion. Like, it's okay

for

> men to get angry, but not to cry, whereas for women it's the

opposite:

> it's okay to cry but not to get angry. And there's a degree to

which

> we're allowed to show any emotions or true feelings (and ideas--for

> women there's more restrictions than for men). And we must use an

> acceptable channel to express ourselves. I admit I like the quiet,

> calmness (on the surface) of the white culture to some extent

(though

> the southern white culture is way more reserved than I like) ,

> especially since I like quiet and no stress, but I love and envy

other

> cultures that are more expressive. An example is when my baby nephew

> died and I went to the funeral of all white people. When I saw that

tiny

> coffin I about lost it and I wanted to wail and throw myself on the

> coffin as would be done at a black funeral. That's proper grieving

(I

> can see many saying, no, it's not, it's losing control and acting

> ridiculous and that' s not done in public. But someone dying is

horrible

> and ridiculous, especially a child, and public-shmublic). But 90%

of the

> people weren't even crying! The other 10% were standing stiffly

with a

> few tears. People get ill and messed up if they don't grieve

properly,

> and I see that a lot among whites--having problems because of never

> grieving properly.

>

> I agree, too, about the stigma regarding mental illness. It's a

huge one

> and I'll bet it is in most, if not all, cultures, and among men and

> women, but more so with men.

>

March 1, 2006

I have noticed that most of my sensory issues have changed as i have aged

(de-sensitised)

But the ability to look some people in the eyes is as uncomfortable for me

now as it was 20 years ago.

Do aspies ever loose the problem of poor i contact with out alternative

methods ?

I use to use the method of only stirring at the mouth when i was younger

but now i look the face with out looking at the eyes in much detail, which

is fine as long as i do it with out thinking, but as soon as i consciously

think of it, i loose it and have to look away for the rest of the

conversation.

Toni (tsbthatsme),

I believe that you are not an aspie have you ever felt uncomfortable with

eye contact or is it just an aspie thing ?

If you had limited amount of eye contact would you think it is not much of a

lose ?

March 2, 2006

>

> I have noticed that most of my sensory issues have changed as i

have aged

> (de-sensitised)

> But the ability to look some people in the eyes is as

uncomfortable for me

> now as it was 20 years ago.

> Do aspies ever loose the problem of poor i contact with out

alternative

> methods ?

>

> I use to use the method of only stirring at the mouth when i was

younger

> but now i look the face with out looking at the eyes in much

detail, which

> is fine as long as i do it with out thinking, but as soon as i

consciously

> think of it, i loose it and have to look away for the rest of the

> conversation.

>

> Toni (tsbthatsme),

> I believe that you are not an aspie have you ever felt

uncomfortable with

> eye contact or is it just an aspie thing ?

> If you had limited amount of eye contact would you think it is not

much of a

> lose ?

>

>I am not an aspie and I feel very uncomfortable with eye contact. I

do like you and will look at the person's eyes for a second and

then maybe look at their mouth or look away. I'm not very

comfortable talking to people I don't know real well at all. I think

that eye contact is like hand shaking. It's what the 'norm' expect

you to do. I don't think any less of a person if they don't look in

MY eyes. As a matter of fact, it kinda makes *me* nervous if they

do. I personally don't see eye contact as a big deal. I remember a

couple of years ago before the boys were diagnosed that a few of

their teachers at one of our many school conferences would tell the

boys 'look me in the eyes when I'm talking to you'. It ticked me off

then and it does more so now!

March 2, 2006

After a while, I stopped caring whether or not people were offended at

me not looking at their eyes when I spoke to them. This freedom of

guilt actually allowed me to get along with them better and to look

them in the eyes every once in a while.

But I still dislike eye contact. It seems, actually, that eye contact

is a window into their minds, and I fear that if I look to closely at

them I will dislike what I see or else I will see something they don;t

want me to see.

For me, eye contact is a personal thing. It is intrusive when people

try to look into my eyes, and I try to afford them the same respect I

crave by not looking into theirs.

Tom

Administrator

Do aspies ever loose the problem of poor i contact with out alternative

methods ?

March 2, 2006

After a while, I stopped caring whether or not people were offended at

me not looking at their eyes when I spoke to them. This freedom of

guilt actually allowed me to get along with them better and to look

them in the eyes every once in a while.

But I still dislike eye contact. It seems, actually, that eye contact

is a window into their minds, and I fear that if I look to closely at

them I will dislike what I see or else I will see something they don;t

want me to see.

For me, eye contact is a personal thing. It is intrusive when people

try to look into my eyes, and I try to afford them the same respect I

crave by not looking into theirs.

Tom

Administrator

Do aspies ever loose the problem of poor i contact with out alternative

methods ?

March 2, 2006

>

> >

> >I am not an aspie and I feel very uncomfortable with eye contact. I

> do like you and will look at the person's eyes for a second and

> then maybe look at their mouth or look away. I'm not very

> comfortable talking to people I don't know real well at all. I think

> that eye contact is like hand shaking. It's what the 'norm' expect

> you to do. I don't think any less of a person if they don't look in

> MY eyes. As a matter of fact, it kinda makes *me* nervous if they

> do. I personally don't see eye contact as a big deal. I remember a

> couple of years ago before the boys were diagnosed that a few of

> their teachers at one of our many school conferences would tell the

> boys 'look me in the eyes when I'm talking to you'. It ticked me off

> then and it does more so now!

>

Toni, you may have aspie traits which is highly likely since you have

aspie boys. Feeling uncomfortable with eye contact is unusual for an

NT.

March 2, 2006

I've gotten a little better at eye contact than I used to be, but I

don't see myself ever being able to really do it, as they do. I see

it as a window to the mind as well, and I don't see how people can

stare into someone's eyes without being personal about it. The few

times I've concentrated on staring into someones' eyes THEY'VE felt

uncomfortable--their eyes got wide and they backed off--it's like

they understood eye contact from my point of view and the way I see

it. I concluded they do it somehow differently then we do and it's

just completely different for them. I've tried to see it from their

point of view, but can't--if I try to be casual about it I'll either

look away or kind of space out so I'm not really seeing them anymore.

Anyway, I can't concentrate on what they're saying because it's

either concentrate on the eye contact thing or concentrate on what

they're saying, but not both.

>

> Do aspies ever loose the problem of poor i contact with out

alternative

> methods ?

>

March 2, 2006

I may be mistaken about this, but I suspect I suggested Toni come here

to this board from the Family Forum for this reason.

Tom

Administrator

Toni, you may have aspie traits which is highly likely since you have

aspie boys. Feeling uncomfortable with eye contact is unusual for an

NT.

March 2, 2006

In a message dated 3/2/2006 10:06:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

After a while, I stopped caring whether or not people were offended at me not looking at their eyes when I spoke to them. This freedom of guilt actually allowed me to get along with them better and to look them in the eyes every once in a while.

I don't worry about this either. The only time I really look people in the eye is when I meet them to shake hands. It is expected then and not doing so gives a bad impression. At other times I will look them in the eye now and then, or I will look at their nose, ear or something like that but not stare so they don't think there is something wrong with them.

On the other hand, most people that know me aren't put off by the fact that I don't look them in the eye, even though I am aware they are doing so to me.

The only other time I will look people in the eye is if I am angry and its coming close to a fight or other confrontation.

March 2, 2006

In a message dated 3/2/2006 10:06:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

After a while, I stopped caring whether or not people were offended at me not looking at their eyes when I spoke to them. This freedom of guilt actually allowed me to get along with them better and to look them in the eyes every once in a while.

I don't worry about this either. The only time I really look people in the eye is when I meet them to shake hands. It is expected then and not doing so gives a bad impression. At other times I will look them in the eye now and then, or I will look at their nose, ear or something like that but not stare so they don't think there is something wrong with them.

On the other hand, most people that know me aren't put off by the fact that I don't look them in the eye, even though I am aware they are doing so to me.

The only other time I will look people in the eye is if I am angry and its coming close to a fight or other confrontation.

March 2, 2006

In a message dated 3/2/2006 1:05:32 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

Most Aspies are. We have a personality we use around non-Aspies, and we have a personality we use around ourselves.

Most people don't suspect that there is anything "wrong" with me. They get the impression that I am a little eccentric or a bit of a character, but they don't think anything beyond that. The few people that I have told about AS were surprised but it didn't change their opinion of me and I hope gave them a good impression of AS.

As for being a good actor, I probably am, to an extent. Most social situations I have to fake my way through it since for the most part they bore the heck out of me. Sometimes I can play it off pretty well, but if the conversation hits a lull, don't expect me to be the one to get it started again.

March 2, 2006

In a message dated 3/2/2006 1:06:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, no_reply writes:

The only parties I ever go to are ones with relatives. I rarely if ever drink, but have nursed a drink through a party so as to keep my hands busy, or, if I said something stupid, to blame it on the drink. Ginger ale makes a good substitute for alcohol. It looks like alcohol, and unless someone smells the drink, you can pretend that alcohol is what it is.

I don't drink with and so don't go to clubs and bars. I don't hide the fact that I don't drink. My opinion is if something thinks less of me for not drinking, then they probably aren't worth my friendship. If it does bother them, I have a great counter: I tell them the truth. I tell them that alcoholism runs in the family and so I won't drink at all so as to avoid the curse. That never fails to shut them up.

March 2, 2006

In a message dated 3/2/2006 3:21:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mikecarrie01@... writes:

When I was 17 my dentist told me I needed all 4 wisdom teeth out and that 2 were broken up under my gums and one was impacted.

I had to get my wisdom teeth out in my early 20. There was no question about my case though: there was barely enough room in my mouth for the teeth already there let alone four more. The roots of the teeth I have had pulled bear this out. They are all tightly compacted, which is probably why they cam out so relatively easily. Now I just have to remember not to look in my mouth for a while. I noticed earlier today that I can actually see the pit where this last tooth was taken out, yuck.

March 2, 2006

> >

> > >

> > >I am not an aspie and I feel very uncomfortable with eye

contact. I

> > do like you and will look at the person's eyes for a second and

> > then maybe look at their mouth or look away. I'm not very

> > comfortable talking to people I don't know real well at all. I

think

> > that eye contact is like hand shaking. It's what the 'norm'

expect

> > you to do. I don't think any less of a person if they don't look

in

> > MY eyes. As a matter of fact, it kinda makes *me* nervous if they

> > do. I personally don't see eye contact as a big deal. I remember

a

> > couple of years ago before the boys were diagnosed that a few of

> > their teachers at one of our many school conferences would tell

the

> > boys 'look me in the eyes when I'm talking to you'. It ticked me

off

> > then and it does more so now!

> >

>

> Toni, you may have aspie traits which is highly likely since you

have

> aspie boys. Feeling uncomfortable with eye contact is unusual for

an

> NT.

>You could be right. I am not comfortble in talking one to one and

will get tonguetied and very anxious. I am a recovering alcoholic

and I started using alcohol to be able to talk to people at parties

and such when I was a teenager. I could never call and make a dr

appt until I was forced to after getting married and having kids. I

was just generally uncomfortable in my own skin... especially in

social situations.

March 2, 2006

>

> Toni, you may have aspie traits which is highly likely since you have

> aspie boys. Feeling uncomfortable with eye contact is unusual for an

> NT.

>

Tom and Mike. I can see where I have some traits. SOCIALLY, for sure.

But if you asked most of the people at my church for instance they

would laugh to hear that I feel socially inept. I guess I'm a good

actress. But I have good organization skills so UNLIKE my boys.

although I guess every aspie is not organizationally (?) challenged.

Now I'm really confused... I assumed most aspies were 'uncoordinated'

since n and Noah are. They never learned to ride a bike, can

hardly run etc but then I read where some of you rollerblade and ride

bikes. I guess every aspie is different just like every non-aspie is.

March 2, 2006

The only parties I ever go to are ones with relatives. I rarely if

ever drink, but have nursed a drink through a party so as to keep my

hands busy, or, if I said something stupid, to blame it on the drink.

Ginger ale makes a good substitute for alcohol. It looks like alcohol,

and unless someone smells the drink, you can pretend that alcohol is

what it is.

It was also hard for me to make appointments and things. Still is, but

having held jobs for a while now I have learned to be able to it

successfully.

Being comfortable with one's self requires accepting your good

attributes and faults, and changing the things you don't like.

Accepting yourself is a step toward loving yourself, and by loving

yourself, you make it easier for others to love you.

Tom

Administrator

I am a recovering alcoholic and I started using alcohol to be able to

talk to people at parties and such when I was a teenager. I could

never call and make a dr appt until I was forced to after getting

married and having kids. I was just generally uncomfortable in my own

skin... especially in social situations.

March 2, 2006

" I guess I'm a good actress. "

Most Aspies are. We have a personality we use around non-Aspies, and

we have a personality we use around ourselves.

Look at the people in this forum. They all present themselves in the

manner in which they feel most comfortable, and they are accepted

regardless, yet they would surely be conformist when meeting with

people in the real world.

" But I have good organization skills so UNLIKE my boys, although I

guess every aspie is not organizationally (?) challenged. "

Disorganization is a matter of relativity and should not be seen as

purely an Aspie trait.

Many Aspies need their own methods of organization for them to

function optimally. Yet their methods of organization would seem

chaotic to others.

" Now I'm really confused... I assumed most aspies were 'uncoordinated'

since n and Noah are. They never learned to ride a bike, can

hardly run etc but then I read where some of you rollerblade and ride

bikes. I guess every aspie is different just like every non-aspie is. "

It depends on the Aspie. The DSM IV is merely a list of

characteristics that define the Aspie but not all Aspies have all the

characteristics. I can ride a bike, hike, operate power tools, drive,

etc., but I am still notorious for running into open doors and

stumbling down stairs.

Tom

Administrator

March 2, 2006

Re:

> The few times I've concentrated on staring into someones' eyes THEY'VE >felt

uncomfortable--their eyes got wide and they backed off--it's like

> they understood eye contact from my point of view and the way I see

> it.

I've observed this, too.

In my childhood, every adult in my life punished me for not

looking into his/her eyes - then, when I followed the request to " Look

at me! " the adult would punish me for that, too: " Why are you looking

at me like that?! STOP IT! " [ ** wham! ** ]

Look at the eyes (as they asked), or look away from the eyes (as

they asked after I looked at the eyes), I still got punished - then I

got punished further for pointing this out and asking just where they

*did* want me to look, if they didn't accept looking away and if they

didn't accept not-looking-away.

Some would say " Well, look at me but just look away every so

often, all right? I can't stand people staring at me ... " " All

right, " I'd say, and I would do exactly that ... but it *still*

annoyed them just as much. No matter what combination of looking and

not-looking I tried to use, they never considered it normal,

acceptable " looking " /eye-contact, whatever. Most of them couldn't or

wouldn't say why, but one very honest person (a fourth-grade teacher

who did try very hard to understand me) said: " I don't know WHAT it

is, but whatever you do with your eyes I just can't stand it. " She and

I actually worked together to try and find some way of

looking/not-looking that she and others would not consider offensive

(trying different timings, etc.) ... but WE COULDN'T! After a year of

frustration (we had met once a week privately - at my own request - to

try and solve this problem), she concluded: " For the life of me I

can't see what you do with your eyes when you look, or don't look,

that is different from what anyone else does with their eyes when they

look or don't look at people - you can look or not look, and anyone

else can look or not look in exactly the same way, but it looks

'wrong' to people when you do it and 'right' when someone else does

it. I know the problem is with me and other people and not with you,

and I have no idea how to fix that problem. It's as if you are a cat

and everyone else is dogs. The dogs instinctively hate the cat, and

when the cat tries to be a dog they still hate it just as much even if

they consciously want to be friends with the cat, because

unconsciously they know it's still a cat, and our instincts are

unconscious. "

Even worse: remember that, for a child standing directly in front of

an adult, " look in my eyes " has to mean " look up " - and many adults in

my life considered it rude, very rude and wrong, for a child to " stare

at the ceiling " as needed to look in the eyes of a standing adult. So

they would say " look straight ahead " - and I'd look straight ahead -

hence, necessarily, straight at the adult's stomach ... and get zapped

for that, too.

I'd ask why I, but not other children, got punished for these

necessary consequences of following commands. For asking this, some

adults would punish me further. Others would " explain " that, well,

when *other* children looked in this or that direction (or straight up

or straight ahead), somehow when they did so it just didn't look wrong

but when i did so it always looked wrong: " I don't know what, exactly,

you're doing wrong - but, whatever it is, you MUST stop it! "

Yours for better letters,

Kate Gladstone

Handwriting Repair and the World Handwriting Contest

handwritingrepair@...

http://learn.to/handwrite, http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

325 South Manning Boulevard

Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA

telephone 518/482-6763

AND REMEMBER ...

you can order books through my site!

(Amazon.com link -

I get a 5% - 15% commission on each book sold)

March 2, 2006

>

> I am a recovering alcoholic and I started using alcohol to be able

to

> talk to people at parties and such when I was a teenager. I could

> never call and make a dr appt until I was forced to after getting

> married and having kids. I was just generally uncomfortable in my

own

> skin... especially in social situations.

>

> Being comfortable with one's self requires accepting your good

> attributes and faults, and changing the things you don't like.

> Accepting yourself is a step toward loving yourself, and by loving

> yourself, you make it easier for others to love

you.

That paragraph is so on target! You are very

wise.

March 2, 2006

As a boy in YMCA Day Camp I mostly ate alone. I liked to do that

because it was " reflective time " for me, and also, I suppose, I needed

a break from everyone else.

But on the few occassions that I did eat with the other kids, they

noticed that I stared all the time. I told them I was just " fazing

out " but they did not understand the concept. Even as I write this I

am " fazing out. " I am not really seeing the screen but thinking about

other things as I finish this post.

Eventually I got the idea that they could not think about many things

at once while doing something, which is weird considering so many

people drive while talking on cell phones, etc.

But I tried blinking, and then they said I wasn't blinking enough.

Then I tried doing it alot, and it was too much. Then they tried to

teach me how to blink properly, and then to move my eyes, and

then...then I just crammed my food in my mouth and told them all to

leave me alone.

They all seemed to laugh about it.

Tom

Administrator

" I don't know what, exactly, you're doing wrong - but, whatever it is,

you MUST stop it! "

March 2, 2006

> > >

> > > >

> > > >I am not an aspie and I feel very uncomfortable with eye

> contact. I

> > > do like you and will look at the person's eyes for a second and

> > > then maybe look at their mouth or look away. I'm not very

> > > comfortable talking to people I don't know real well at all. I

> think

> > > that eye contact is like hand shaking. It's what the 'norm'

> expect

> > > you to do. I don't think any less of a person if they don't

look

> in

> > > MY eyes. As a matter of fact, it kinda makes *me* nervous if

they

> > > do. I personally don't see eye contact as a big deal. I

remember

> a

> > > couple of years ago before the boys were diagnosed that a few of

> > > their teachers at one of our many school conferences would tell

> the

> > > boys 'look me in the eyes when I'm talking to you'. It ticked

me

> off

> > > then and it does more so now!

> > >

> >

> > Toni, you may have aspie traits which is highly likely since you

> have

> > aspie boys. Feeling uncomfortable with eye contact is unusual

for

> an

> > NT.

> >You could be right. I am not comfortble in talking one to one and

> will get tonguetied and very anxious. I am a recovering alcoholic

> and I started using alcohol to be able to talk to people at parties

> and such when I was a teenager. I could never call and make a dr

> appt until I was forced to after getting married and having kids. I

> was just generally uncomfortable in my own skin... especially in

> social situations.

>

Difficulty with eye contact and social situations--there you go! It's

funny you mention doctors' appts--I always had trouble with those,

and calls in general, really. Still do somewhat. When I was 17 my

dentist told me I needed all 4 wisdom teeth out and that 2 were

broken up under my gums and one was impacted. Yet I just couldn't

make the call to the oral surgeon. I had some pain but still couldn't

make the call. To this day I have all my wisdom teeth and came in

intact and perfect(just slightly crowded). Moral for corrupt dentists

and oral surgeons: scare tactics don't always work on Aspies whose

social fears are stronger than reason!

March 2, 2006