Re: OK i am confused

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/19/2006 8:30:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, kajira_2001@... writes:

Inger kindly sent me the link to Bonnie's Star Trek fanfic site,and frankly i am confused.These stories are nowhere near as nasty as i imagined.They are not for every taste but they are not the cavalcade of pedophilia and torture that i was expecting.Unless there are other stories i missed or something.Star Trek fanfics are often sexually bizarre(i am a character in one,that a friend wrote,i will say no more lol),but i see nothing totally evil and antisocial here.No more than any other Star Trek fanfic site.And the sexual stories are clearly marked "Adults Only".Even the PG-13 stories are in the Adult section. Kajira

You must not have read the same ones I have then, like the ones Tom mentioned.

[Guest guest]

I've never seen the stories and whatever it is that is disruptive there either. Also I only visit a few sites a day, typically the same ones and that is it aside from searches. Most of this stuff I don't bother with, I have not seen anything.Also I dont want to read sex stories, it's weird. That's like cybering stuff, it is pethetic and not of my taste.kajira_2001 <kajira_2001@...> wrote: Inger kindly sent me the link to Bonnie's Star Trek fanfic site,and frankly i am confused.These stories are nowhere near as nasty as i imagined.They are not for every taste but they are not the cavalcade of pedophilia and torture that i was expecting.Unless there are other stories i missed or something.Star Trek fanfics are often sexually bizarre(i am a character in one,that a friend

wrote,i will say no more lol),but i see nothing totally evil and antisocial here.No more than any other Star Trek fanfic site.And the sexual stories are clearly marked "Adults Only".Even the PG-13 stories are in the Adult section. Kajira New Songhttp://www.aspergershosting.com/audio/Onwah.wma

Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Guest guest]

Not sure if I gave you the correct link. Last time I looked - which I admit

was quite some time ago - there were other stories, a lot more distasteful

than these (were violent) but I don't feel like reading through all of them

to find the precise ones that turned my stomach. Feel free to navigate the

site yourself and see if the objectionable ones are still there.

Inger

OK i am confused

Inger kindly sent me the link to Bonnie's Star Trek fanfic site,and

frankly i am confused.These stories are nowhere near as nasty as i

imagined.They are not for every taste but they are not the cavalcade of

pedophilia and torture that i was expecting.Unless there are other

stories i missed or something.Star Trek fanfics are often sexually

bizarre(i am a character in one,that a friend wrote,i will say no more

lol),but i see nothing totally evil and antisocial here.No more than

any other Star Trek fanfic site.And the sexual stories are clearly

marked " Adults Only " .Even the PG-13 stories are in the Adult section.

Kajira

FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship, support and

acceptance. Everyone is valued.

Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

[Guest guest]

Kajira:

> Inger kindly sent me the link to Bonnie's Star Trek fanfic site,and

> frankly i am confused.These stories are nowhere near as nasty as i

> imagined.They are not for every taste but they are not the cavalcade of

> pedophilia and torture that i was expecting.Unless there are other

> stories i missed or something.Star Trek fanfics are often sexually

> bizarre(i am a character in one,that a friend wrote,i will say no more

> lol),but i see nothing totally evil and antisocial here.No more than

> any other Star Trek fanfic site.And the sexual stories are clearly

> marked " Adults Only " .Even the PG-13 stories are in the Adult section.

I agree. Most of the stories depict sexual preferences part of

BDSM. I really have no idea why it is claimed that this is abuse

of children or anything like that. BDSM is *voluntary* between

consenting parties. The fantasy of a male being " incapacited " is

erotic both to the masoschistic male and the dominatrix. Bonnie

might not have included in her stories that the acts are voluntary,

but this is always the standard in BDSM play.

I suspect Tom and 's uproar with the stories have more

to do with their Christian values than anything else.

I've seen far more distasteful stories than these. Just look at

some of the popular video-games, war-movies and so on,

and everybody should understand what I'm talking about.

Perhaps some think it is more acceptable if done to a enemy

as part of a war-campaign than by a woman? I suspect

some male egos might be hurt here :-)

Leif

[Guest guest]

I really didn't expect to know of these stories myself. I really think

it is tasteless and frankly immature. I don't see why people are

excited over such things sexually, I suppose some are that explicit,

reminds me of public school. In private school there was not this sort

of stuff, what a world of difference.

The comparables are not really relevant though, fact is its associated

with autism issues, younger folk visit the site, its just perverted

nonsense. I didn't expect it from Bonnie, I'd never approve of it on

my sites, and I'm worse then Tom.

Sex talk is never something I've appreciated; it's more something that

two people in love speak about, rather then fictional perversions that

are better suited for an adult paid site for star trek fetishisms.

>

> I agree. Most of the stories depict sexual preferences part of

> BDSM. I really have no idea why it is claimed that this is abuse

> of children or anything like that. BDSM is *voluntary* between

> consenting parties. The fantasy of a male being " incapacited " is

> erotic both to the masoschistic male and the dominatrix. Bonnie

> might not have included in her stories that the acts are voluntary,

> but this is always the standard in BDSM play.

>

> I suspect Tom and 's uproar with the stories have more

> to do with their Christian values than anything else.

>

> I've seen far more distasteful stories than these. Just look at

> some of the popular video-games, war-movies and so on,

> and everybody should understand what I'm talking about.

> Perhaps some think it is more acceptable if done to a enemy

> as part of a war-campaign than by a woman? I suspect

> some male egos might be hurt here :-)

>

> Leif

>

[Guest guest]

:

> I really didn't expect to know of these stories myself. I really think

> it is tasteless and frankly immature.

If anything, it is hardly immature.

> I don't see why people are

> excited over such things sexually, I suppose some are that explicit,

> reminds me of public school. In private school there was not this sort

> of stuff, what a world of difference.

I never saw anything like this in school, or anywhere else for that

matter. I've learned about BDSM as an adult. I can see why people

find this stuff amusing, even though I've never tried it myself.

> The comparables are not really relevant though, fact is its associated

> with autism issues, younger folk visit the site, its just perverted

> nonsense. I didn't expect it from Bonnie, I'd never approve of it on

> my sites, and I'm worse then Tom.

I suspect BDSM might be more common in autistics, even though

this particular question failed in Aspie-quiz III. The trouble with

such issue is that NTs will play with it for fun without actually

having any natural inclination, while many Aspies, like me, have

no idea about what BDSM actually is. That would explain why

there was a difference in version II which disappeared in version

III. Version II were answered by more self-aware Aspies.

> Sex talk is never something I've appreciated; it's more something that

> two people in love speak about, rather then fictional perversions that

> are better suited for an adult paid site for star trek fetishisms.

I think we need to include sexuality in the neurodiversity spectrum.

Just my personal opinion of course.

Leif

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/20/2006 8:58:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, leif@... writes:

I don't have their english-language names, but it should be obviousthat most adventure movies and certainly war-movies, are full ofviolence and blood. Likewise with many computer games thatare oriented towards killing other human beings, not infrequentlyas a noble soldier of wars.

There is a tremendous difference between killing in war and sexual sadism. In war, one has to kill even if they don't like it, because the enemy will certainly kill them. Soldiers don't enjoy it, though. They hate having to kill someone else, but that is that nature of being a soldier. Those who actually do seem to take pleasure in killing are seen either as insane or just plain evil.

I know this because I have done a great deal of research into the matter, including talking with many combat veterans.

This BDSM stuff on the other hand, at least of the actors has to actually enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on another. By the military definition, these people would be reviled just as the soldiers who enjoyed killing would be, especially people like in those stories.

As for the war games, that is a war simulation and is about killing. Killing is brutal and nasty, but it is far different from the torture and cruelty of these stories.

[Guest guest]

" I suspect some male egos might be hurt here :-) "

Seeing that I am not male, what would my motivation be according to

you, Leif?

Raven

[Guest guest]

Raven:

> I cannot see how humiliation, physical violence, et al can be seen as

> pleasurable -- especially to the victim.

This is because you have no inclination towards BDSM. I can

see this - as a potential " victim " .

> And just so you know, my

> values are not Christian. As a Metis who follows Aboriginal

> spirituality, I can assure you that I find those stories abhorrent and

> beyond description.

OK, cut out Christian then.

> Leif wrote: " I've seen far more distasteful stories than these. Just

> look at some of the popular video-games, war-movies and so on, and

> everybody should understand what I'm talking about. "

>

> What titles in particular are you comparing to the stories at the

> website?

I don't have their english-language names, but it should be obvious

that most adventure movies and certainly war-movies, are full of

violence and blood. Likewise with many computer games that

are oriented towards killing other human beings, not infrequently

as a noble soldier of wars.

> Leif wrote: " Perhaps some think it is more acceptable if done to a

> enemy as part of a war-campaign than by a woman? "

>

> I believe that is an exceptionally unfair thing to say about members

> of this message board who oppose the stories in question. Considering

> how the value of life is something that is cherished by members

> posting to this message board, what you have said cuts to the bone

> when I read your comment.

>

> Furthermore, one cannot compare the devastation of war with the

> devastation of a human soul as is repeatedly underscored in the

> stories on the other website. While both are unacceptable, going to

> war is more of a choice than being raped, mutilated, humiliated, etc.

> in a sexual scenario.

Yes, one can compare " devastation " of war to those stories. War is

something that *people* start. They don't start by themselves.

I certainly wouldn't kill anybody in war, even though this duty

has been forced upon me by my government. The military in fact

is a prime example of unacceptable indoctrination to kill fellow

humans in the name of your country / religion / politic leaders

or you name it.

Leif

[Guest guest]

I have to say something - I think these stories are horrendous,

horrible etc and I am by know means a prude.

I do have some kinky tastes and do sometimes enjoy erotic fiction -

but never if it includes minors or to the point of the graphic

nastiness that was depepicted in these stories.

Also to just pass it off as innocent is rather niave in my opinion -

some peodephiles and others who are not sound of mind will often try

some things that they have heard of - or that their twisted minds

have concocted(sp?)

People have been killed in sexual acts gone wrong and also others

have intentionally killed others for their own perverse pleasures.

It's bad enough hearing about these things in RL and being true and

then to find that some write about such and to know that their are

obviously some that take pleasure in reading and writing this stuff -

where is the line drawn? Who am, or anyone else to say these things

will never be carried out?

" I suspect some male egos might be hurt here :-) "

>

> Seeing that I am not male, what would my motivation be according to

> you, Leif?

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

I have to say something - I think these stories are horrendous,

horrible etc and I am by know means a prude.

I do have some kinky tastes and do sometimes enjoy erotic fiction -

but never if it includes minors or to the point of the graphic

nastiness that was depepicted in these stories.

Also to just pass it off as innocent is rather niave in my opinion -

some peodephiles and others who are not sound of mind will often try

some things that they have heard of - or that their twisted minds

have concocted(sp?)

People have been killed in sexual acts gone wrong and also others

have intentionally killed others for their own perverse pleasures.

It's bad enough hearing about these things in RL and being true and

then to find that some write about such and to know that their are

obviously some that take pleasure in reading and writing this stuff -

where is the line drawn? Who am, or anyone else to say these things

will never be carried out?

" I suspect some male egos might be hurt here :-) "

>

> Seeing that I am not male, what would my motivation be according to

> you, Leif?

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/20/2006 3:58:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, leif@... writes:

I suspect Tom and 's uproar with the stories have moreto do with their Christian values than anything else.

That's partially correct. However, how anyone can find pleasure is inflicting pain, voluntary or not, is sick. Unless things have changed recently, both Sadism and Masochism are both listed as deviant personality traits.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/20/2006 8:17:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, inglori@... writes:

Listed where, ?

In the same handbook that lists all the other mental ailments, can't think of the name but the official guide.

Those stories were not BDSM, but just outright torture.

[Guest guest]

Please, people. How can the excerpt that Tom posted not be understood

to be incredibly disgusting, sadistic, unnatural, and HORRIBLE! What

is the difference between that and sick torture? How can we humans

use our creative powers lovingly given to us by our creator so

unspeakably? Snap out of whatever delusion you're under. Please.

>

> :

> > I really didn't expect to know of these stories myself. I really

think

> > it is tasteless and frankly immature.

>

> If anything, it is hardly immature.

>

> > I don't see why people are

> > excited over such things sexually, I suppose some are that

explicit,

> > reminds me of public school. In private school there was not this

sort

> > of stuff, what a world of difference.

>

> I never saw anything like this in school, or anywhere else for that

> matter. I've learned about BDSM as an adult. I can see why people

> find this stuff amusing, even though I've never tried it myself.

>

> > The comparables are not really relevant though, fact is its

associated

> > with autism issues, younger folk visit the site, its just

perverted

> > nonsense. I didn't expect it from Bonnie, I'd never approve of it

on

> > my sites, and I'm worse then Tom.

>

> I suspect BDSM might be more common in autistics, even though

> this particular question failed in Aspie-quiz III. The trouble with

> such issue is that NTs will play with it for fun without actually

> having any natural inclination, while many Aspies, like me, have

> no idea about what BDSM actually is. That would explain why

> there was a difference in version II which disappeared in version

> III. Version II were answered by more self-aware Aspies.

>

> > Sex talk is never something I've appreciated; it's more something

that

> > two people in love speak about, rather then fictional perversions

that

> > are better suited for an adult paid site for star trek fetishisms.

>

> I think we need to include sexuality in the neurodiversity spectrum.

> Just my personal opinion of course.

>

> Leif

>

[Guest guest]

Listed where, ?

I think you confuse BDSM that has as guiding words to be "safe, sane and consensual" - and that is just a different way of making LOVE - with pathological, non-consensual sadism that just wishes to harm others.

A true Dom or Domme is often a skilled, loving, caring person with more self-control than most who would not want to harm his or her partner, and would not do anything that the partner did not enjoy and pre-approve of. There are all sorts of safety-regulations, including safe-words, if things would get too much for the person at the receiving end. If only the vanilla community was as careful and respectful in relationships and sex, the world would be a nicer place.

(Though, naturally there are some irresponsible, disrespectful jerks in BDSM circles too, just like everywhere else.)

Inger

Re: OK i am confused

In a message dated 3/20/2006 3:58:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, leif@... writes:

I suspect Tom and 's uproar with the stories have moreto do with their Christian values than anything else.

That's partially correct. However, how anyone can find pleasure is inflicting pain, voluntary or not, is sick. Unless things have changed recently, both Sadism and Masochism are both listed as deviant personality traits.

[Guest guest]

Inger what is BDSM ? I am apparently out of the 'loop' on alot of things.

Inger Lorelei wrote:

> Listed where, ?

>

> I think you confuse BDSM that has as guiding words to be " safe, sane

> and consensual " - and that is just a different way of making LOVE

> - with pathological, non-consensual sadism that just wishes to harm

> others.

>

> A true Dom or Domme is often a skilled, loving, caring person with

> more self-control than most who would not want to harm his or

> her partner, and would not do anything that the partner did not enjoy

> and pre-approve of. There are all sorts of safety-regulations,

> including safe-words, if things would get too much for the person at

> the receiving end. If only the vanilla community was as careful and

> respectful in relationships and sex, the world would be a nicer place.

>

> (Though, naturally there are /some/ irresponsible, disrespectful jerks

> in BDSM circles too, just like everywhere else.)

>

> Inger

>

>

>

>

> * Re: OK i am confused

>

> In a message dated 3/20/2006 3:58:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> leif@... <mailto:leif@...> writes:

>

> I suspect Tom and 's uproar with the stories have more

> to do with their Christian values than anything else.

>

> That's partially correct. However, how anyone can find pleasure is

> inflicting pain, voluntary or not, is sick. Unless things have changed

> recently, both Sadism and Masochism are both listed as deviant

> personality traits.

>

>

>

>

> FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship,

> support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.

>

> Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Inger

> > Listed where, ?

:

> In the same handbook that lists all the other mental ailments, can't think of the name but the official guide. '

DSM? Merck? Well, we all know how accurate THOSE are! *irony*

> Those stories were not BDSM, but just outright torture.

Correct. Which is why I found some of them so distasteful. (Didn't read all, though.)

Inger

[Guest guest]

You probably don't want to know...

Inger

* Re: OK i am confused

>

> In a message dated 3/20/2006 3:58:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> leif@... <mailto:leif@...> writes:

>

> I suspect Tom and 's uproar with the stories have more

> to do with their Christian values than anything else.

>

> That's partially correct. However, how anyone can find pleasure is

> inflicting pain, voluntary or not, is sick. Unless things have changed

> recently, both Sadism and Masochism are both listed as deviant

> personality traits.

>

>

>

>

> FAM Secret Society is a community based on respect, friendship,

> support and acceptance. Everyone is valued.

>

> Check the Links section for more FAM forums.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The problem is Biblical. The Bible tells Christians to treat our

bodies as we would treat the Holy Spirit. If we abuse our bodies, and

if the Holy Spirit dwells within us, then when we abuse our bodies,

we abuse the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of God, and therefore God.

If our lover who is abusing us does this out of love, it creates an

even bigger conflict. How can you abuse God out of love?

Tom

Administrator

Listed where, ?

I think you confuse BDSM that has as guiding words to be " safe, sane

and consensual " - and that is just a different way of making LOVE -

with pathological, non-consensual sadism that just wishes to harm

others.

A true Dom or Domme is often a skilled, loving, caring person with

more self-control than most who would not want to harm his or her

partner, and would not do anything that the partner did not enjoy and

pre-approve of. There are all sorts of safety-regulations, including

safe-words, if things would get too much for the person at the

receiving end. If only the vanilla community was as careful and

respectful in relationships and sex, the world would be a nicer

place.

(Though, naturally there are some irresponsible, disrespectful jerks

in BDSM circles too, just like everywhere else.)

Inger

Re: OK i am confused

In a message dated 3/20/2006 3:58:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,

leif@... writes:

" I suspect Tom and 's uproar with the stories have more

to do with their Christian values than anything else. "

That's partially correct. However, how anyone can find pleasure is

inflicting pain, voluntary or not, is sick. Unless things have

changed recently, both Sadism and Masochism are both listed as

deviant personality traits.

[Guest guest]

:

> There is a tremendous difference between killing in

> war and sexual sadism.

I don't agree. It is the same thing. Violence as violence.

> In war, one has to kill even if they don't like it, because

> the enemy will certainly kill them.

A very lame excuse for killing other human beings.

> Soldiers don't enjoy it, though. They hate having to kill

> someone else, but that is that nature of being a soldier.

Getting back to the junk yard dog, you mean that a soldier

is not someone enjoying his profession (killing), isn't

dangerous (because he is a patriot) and is glorified in

Christian mytology (at least if he is a soldier fighting

for Christian faith).

> Those who actually do seem to take pleasure in killing

> are seen either as insane or just plain evil.

That's just because the military only wants soldiers that

they can easily manipulate to kill whatever human

*they* seem fit.

> I know this because I have done a great deal of research

> into the matter, including talking with many combat veterans.

They are supporting war and killing in war by enrolling in

the military. It might be a little different for forced soldiers.

> This BDSM stuff on the other hand, at least of the actors

> has to actually enjoy inflicting pain and suffering on another.

It's consentual and part of a sexual play. Killing enemies

and civilians, raping women in the name of war is pure

sadism and non-consensual.

> As for the war games, that is a war simulation and is about killing.

> Killing is brutal and nasty, but it is far different from the torture

> and cruelty of these stories.

Have you forgotten the non-consentual torture that Americans

inflicted to prisoners in Iraqi? War and figthing is about humiliation

and killing. It is not some kind of noble activity that should reward

you votes and status. This is a sick notion. There should be a

DSM label for soldiers and war-leaders.

Leif

[Guest guest]

:

> Those stories were not BDSM, but just outright torture.

I don't think so. I happen to know that Bonnie is involved in

BDSM as a dominatrix.

Leif

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 2:55:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, leif@... writes:

I don't think so. I happen to know that Bonnie is involved inBDSM as a dominatrix. Leif

If those stories are merely BDSM, then how can what was done in Abu Graib prison be considered torture? If shoving a spiked fist up someone's rear isn't torture and cruelty, what is?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 2:35:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, leif@... writes:

It's consentual and part of a sexual play. Killing enemiesand civilians, raping women in the name of war is puresadism and non-consensual.

And don't the soldiers also consent to fight? If so, then they are willing participants in war and, by your logic, anything done to another willing combatant is OK since they both agreed to fight.

You have a very primitive and limited definition of war. What you say may have been true long ago and in primitive cultures today, but war is much more than about harems and women. Even in ancient times most wars were fought over resources and territory and for revenge against attacks by the enemy.

Tom is correct in that rape and abuse of civilians is against the legal codes Western armies operate under and has been for some time. Perhaps you are thinking about the UN forces. They seem to be more like the kinds of armies you describe: disarming the local, raping and pillaging and running away when real trouble comes, leaving the people they were supposed to be "protecting" to the mercy of those they were supposed to keep out. They did so well in Rwanda, running away and leaving a million Hutu to be slaughter, and in Sudan, well they won't even go there, but then only 2.5 million people have been killed in a war that is more genocide.

So you say war is never good. How would Europe look now if the Nazis had never been defeated, or had the Communist Russians taken over all the way to Gibraltar? I suppose that would be OK then: it would only be mere genocide and massive repression. Maybe not war in the primitive terms you describe it, once the conquest was over, just war against freedom and the human spirit.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 8:31:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, leif@... writes:

Mixing up stories with reality again. What happened in Abu Graibwas *reality*. What Bonnie wrote was fiction!Leif

So I could write stories about mercilessly torturing Muslims to death, nerve gassing whole cities, spitting kitten on pikes and burning them alive and it would be OK since it is fiction?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 8:49:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, leif@... writes:

I offered you a suggestion before. Put every country that starts a war underan international tribunal. This would take care of both nazis andcommunists,as they were the one that started. It would also take care of USimperialism.Leif

And what about the European Imperialism that conquored the world and set the stage for the mess it is now? And what about Bosnia? Europe said it could handle it but after several years of ethnic cleansing and watching their soldiers be taken prisoner and used as human shields, they asked the US once again to come put an end to the fighting and Clinton obliged. I think we should have refused. That conflict was on the very of brewing up in to a nasty regional war with between all the Balkan states with Russia getting involved too.