Re: Real Life WAS OK i am confused

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 1:47:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, ravenmagic2003@... writes:

One cannot write convincingly on a subject without first having a solid frame of reference and personal experience from which to draw upon. Since Bonnie's violent depictions of sexual interactions -- even those with imaginary beings -- are exceedingly graphic and are exceptionally convincing, it stands to reason that her experiences have provided the frame of reference required to create such convincing scenarios.Raven

I just watched a program this morning about a murder in South Carolina. There was this boy, big high school sports star, really popular, everyone liked him, and this girl, also very popular. Turns out the boy rapes, stabs the girl 31 times, cuts her throat and rapes her again. The police find at his place violent pornography, BDSM stuff and a couple of snuff films, including one where the woman's throat was cut. Hardly coincidence.

This is either a case of the boy having been tainted by it, or more likely, he was a monster in training, watching those movies that showed sexual torture, because he liked it. Finally, that stimulation was enough to get him to do it himself, on a childhood friend.

No, such don't have any influence on a person. Its just those gangsta and violent video games that do.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 2:44:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, leif@... writes:

I don't know if this is meaningful, but it seems like Ravenhaven't read anything on what BD/SM is supposed to be.I'll just repeat it on last time. BD/SM is *consentual*,meaning that whatever Bonnie carried out as a dominatrixshe did *with a consenting partner*. You can condemthis kind of "kinky sex" all you want, but I suggest youlearn a little more about BDSM before you jump to conclusionsabout all the awful things you claim Bonnie have done.Leif

I've never killed anyone but I know murder is wrong. I know how all right, there is a depressingly long list of ways to kill a human being. That doesn't mean I need first hand knowledge of murder to know it is wrong.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 2:45:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, ravenmagic2003@... writes:

I do not have to murder a man to know that I do not support killing.Raven

Just answered in the same fashion. Great Minds Think Alike.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 4:32:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, csparania@... writes:

If this would be true, most fictional books could have never beenwritten. Lwaxy

Not exactly. The stories might take place in fantasic setting, but that is just the back drop. The meat of the story is the characters, the people of the story and what happens to them and how it affects them. Fantasy and Sci-Fi still abides by this rule, no matter what "world" the characters happen to be in.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 4:32:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, csparania@... writes:

If this would be true, most fictional books could have never beenwritten. Lwaxy

Not exactly. The stories might take place in fantasic setting, but that is just the back drop. The meat of the story is the characters, the people of the story and what happens to them and how it affects them. Fantasy and Sci-Fi still abides by this rule, no matter what "world" the characters happen to be in.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 5:34:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, inglori@... writes:

Yet you defend non-sexual violence, just because YOU happen to enjoy it. I don't see the logic in that.

If you paid attention you would see that I said that it is not the violence that I enjoy, but the story. If I wanted to watch violence for violence's sake, I'd watch boxing or Ultimate Fighter. I have watched those for a time, but it gets boring after a while because there is nothing to it but violence.

Now, I have seen BDSM video on the net. Whipping people raw, women kicking men in the genitals until they bleed, sticking hypodermic needles into the genitals and breasts, and countless other things I have seen aren't making love. That's just cruelty plain and simple.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 5:34:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, inglori@... writes:

99,99% of all Doms do NOT murder their partner as part of the game, just like 99,99% of ordinary guys don't murder their partner either.

Meant to say, can you back up this number or is that just your feeling about it?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 5:52:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, csparania@... writes:

I was rather talking about murder mysteries and such. By claiming thatyou have to have experienced something, this would suggest therespective authors have experience with killing and hiding theirvictims for example. Lwaxy

I can see your point. But this is where we get into research. One can read other novels for ideas. Unfortunately, one can also watch the news, crime shows, and so on and find all kinds of grist for stories based on the things people have actually done. I have written stories about characters attacking into a house to get at the bad guys. I've never done that for real, but I have studied the tactics, practiced with a friend who was in the Army Special Forces, and do drills now and then in my own house (not live fire of course). So, even though I have never done it for real, I know how it would flow. I understand the fear of not knowing where the enemy might be or when you might be attacked at very close range.

A crime writer could do the same, to an extent. They could cobble together bits from the news stories to create their own mystery. They might even plan original crimes. Could they take that step over the edge, maybe. I know that I have cleared my own house a few times when I have heard an out of place noise at night or come home and had a strange feeling. For that matter I've even cleared a neighbor's house when we came back from a walk and their front door was unlocked (nothing happened though, they just forgot to lock it).

The difference here is intent. I don't intend to ever use what I know to harm an innocent, though I may use it to protect them if the situation arises. Likewise, a crime writer intends to tell a story, as do I when I write. Many of my stories feature combat, but if you have read any of them, you'll see I don't go into detail about and my characters rarely use lethal force against other humans. However, these BDSM stories are written by and for people who DO practice it. The intent there may be to tell a story, but they know they are writing to people who will carry out real acts like those they portray fictionally.

That I see is the difference.

Bear in mind, I have also said I don't like gratuitous violence. I've turned off many a money that was nothing but senseless fighting and killing. This is also why I don't care for horror movies.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/21/2006 5:55:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, ravenmagic2003@... writes:

Inger wrote: "Yet you defend non-sexual violence, just because YOU happen to enjoy it. I don't see the logic in that."Where is the logic in hurting another living being?Keep in mind that my people believe that above all else, do no harm to any living thing.Raven

That was directed at me, I believe. I don't believe in hurting other people either. However, I also believe in the right to defend oneself, family, friends and even nation against attackers, up to and including lethal force.

Stories about war rarely glorify violence. Instead, they simply show that violence is a part of war and that it is a terrible thing. However, war is sometimes necessary, just as it is sometimes necessary to defend oneself from attack. That doesn't mean you have to like it, it is just something that may happen.

A good war story focusses on the people involved just like any other good story. The violence is part of the background, a reality of the war. If it becomes the focus, then it becomes a bad story.

I'm really getting tired of arguing this point because there is obivously a difference in frame of reference. Inger doesn't like there stories on principle and won't watch. That means she hasn't seen how the characters are handled in these movies, which as I have said several times, is the real point of the story, not the violence. I've read a romance novel or two and found them pitifully done and formulatic in the extreme. I've read crime novels, detective novels, and others. They were better than the romance stuff, but many also feature violence.

Anyway, because of this, I don't see the point in continuing to discuss this.

[Guest guest]

Raven:

> One cannot write convincingly on a subject without first having a

> solid frame of reference and personal experience from which to draw

> upon. Since Bonnie's violent depictions of sexual interactions --

> even those with imaginary beings -- are exceedingly graphic and are

> exceptionally convincing, it stands to reason that her experiences

> have provided the frame of reference required to create such

> convincing scenarios.

I don't know if this is meaningful, but it seems like Raven

haven't read anything on what BD/SM is supposed to be.

I'll just repeat it on last time. BD/SM is *consentual*,

meaning that whatever Bonnie carried out as a dominatrix

she did *with a consenting partner*. You can condem

this kind of " kinky sex " all you want, but I suggest you

learn a little more about BDSM before you jump to conclusions

about all the awful things you claim Bonnie have done.

Leif

[Guest guest]

" .... <snip> ... I suggest you learn a little more about

BDSM before you jump to conclusions about all the awful things you

claim Bonnie have done. "

I do not have to murder a man to know that I do not support killing.

Raven

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure I entirley agree - I can and do write fiction that has

nothing to do with reality as most would percieve it.

I put it down to having a strange imagination and spending way too much

time in my own world in the past :-)

>

> One cannot write convincingly on a subject without first having a

> solid frame of reference and personal experience from which to draw

> upon. Since Bonnie's violent depictions of sexual interactions --

> even those with imaginary beings -- are exceedingly graphic and are

> exceptionally convincing, it stands to reason that her experiences

> have provided the frame of reference required to create such

> convincing scenarios.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure I entirley agree - I can and do write fiction that has

nothing to do with reality as most would percieve it.

I put it down to having a strange imagination and spending way too much

time in my own world in the past :-)

>

> One cannot write convincingly on a subject without first having a

> solid frame of reference and personal experience from which to draw

> upon. Since Bonnie's violent depictions of sexual interactions --

> even those with imaginary beings -- are exceedingly graphic and are

> exceptionally convincing, it stands to reason that her experiences

> have provided the frame of reference required to create such

> convincing scenarios.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

> One cannot write convincingly on a subject without first having a

> solid frame of reference and personal experience from which to draw

> upon.

If this would be true, most fictional books could have never been

written.

Lwaxy

[Guest guest]

:

> I just watched a program this morning about a murder in South Carolina. There was this boy, big high school sports star, really popular, everyone liked him, and this girl, also very popular. Turns out the boy rapes, stabs the girl 31 times, cuts her throat and rapes her again. The police find at his place violent pornography, BDSM stuff and a couple of snuff films, including one where the woman's throat was cut. Hardly coincidence.

This is either a case of the boy having been tainted by it, or more likely, he was a monster in training, watching those movies that showed sexual torture, because he liked it. Finally, that stimulation was enough to get him to do it himself, on a childhood friend.

No, such don't have any influence on a person. Its just those gangsta and violent video games that do.

BDSM does NOT include murder. I repeat; t is just a different way of making love. The example posted of Bonnie's fiction is femslash, not BDSM fiction. You are confusing two very different things.

99,99% of all Doms do NOT murder their partner as part of the game, just like 99,99% of ordinary guys don't murder their partner either.

The boy you describe above was probably a psychopathic sicko even before he had ever read anything at all. The type that enjoys pulling the wings off flies as a kid. For such people, I agree that it is most unwise to have films etc available to give him even more ideas - just as it is inadvisable to show other types of films depicting violence & murder for anyone inclined to take inspiration from it.

Yet you defend non-sexual violence, just because YOU happen to enjoy it. I don't see the logic in that.

Inger

[Guest guest]

But it is a reality that YOU are able to perceive therefore your

comment supports my assertion, .

Raven

" I'm not sure I entirley agree - I can and do write

fiction that has nothing to do with reality as most would percieve it. "

[Guest guest]

This is true. Fiction has its basis in reality just as non-fiction

does. Therefore your claim that most fictional books would not have

been written is a fallacy of logic.

Raven

>

>

> > One cannot write convincingly on a subject without first having

a

> > solid frame of reference and personal experience from which to

draw

> > upon.

>

> If this would be true, most fictional books could have never been

> written.

>

> Lwaxy

>

[Guest guest]

I must agree. :-)

Raven

>

>

> In a message dated 3/21/2006 2:45:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> ravenmagic2003@... writes:

>

> I do not have to murder a man to know that I do not support

killing.

>

> Raven

>

>

>

> Just answered in the same fashion. Great Minds Think Alike.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Not exactly. The stories might take place in fantasic setting, but

that is

> just the back drop. The meat of the story is the characters, the

people of the

> story and what happens to them and how it affects them. Fantasy and

Sci-Fi

> still abides by this rule, no matter what " world " the characters

happen to be

> in.

>

I was rather talking about murder mysteries and such. By claiming that

you have to have experienced something, this would suggest the

respective authors have experience with killing and hiding their

victims for example.

Lwaxy

[Guest guest]

" Yet you defend non-sexual violence, just because YOU

happen to enjoy it. I don't see the logic in that. "

Where is the logic in hurting another living being?

Keep in mind that my people believe that above all else, do no harm to

any living thing.

Raven

[Guest guest]

Inger wrote:

" Yet you defend non-sexual violence, just because YOU happen to enjoy it. I

don't see the logic in that. "

Raven:

> Where is the logic in hurting another living being?

Keep in mind that my people believe that above all else, do no harm to any

living thing.

Then I completely agree with the belief of your people.

What you and do not seem to understand is that in BDSM you are NOT

harming the recipient party, you are giving them pleasure, not pain. Just

because YOU may not enjoy a good flogging, that doesn't mean that others

won't.

It's like with hugging. MOST people enjoy hugging, and therefore it is

assumed that ALL people should enjoy it. But for some, hugging is like what

a flogging would be to you, and a lovingly administered flogging like a

loving hug might be to a non-autistic.

Doing it to anyone who does NOT enjoy it, and who has not consented,

however; that is only assault, not BDSM. (And that goes both for the hugging

and the flogging.)

Get it?

Inger

[Guest guest]

It was an approximation, in order to make a point. :-)

Surely, you get what I was trying to illustrate?

If you think I am wrong, you are welcome to present your own figures showing all these Doms who have killed their partners for sport.

Inger

Re: Re: Real Life WAS OK i am confused

In a message dated 3/21/2006 5:34:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, inglori@... writes:

99,99% of all Doms do NOT murder their partner as part of the game, just like 99,99% of ordinary guys don't murder their partner either.

Meant to say, can you back up this number or is that just your feeling about it?

[Guest guest]

Inger:

>> Yet you defend non-sexual violence, just because YOU happen to enjoy it. I don't see the logic in that.

> If you paid attention you would see that I said that it is not the violence that I enjoy, but the story.

OK. I happen to enjoy some of those stories too, but I could do with a lot less violence in them. When I was a kid, it was possible to write books and make films that were not THAT graphic about the violence, just as it was possible to make sex scenes without coming closer and closer to porn.

> If I wanted to watch violence for violence's sake, I'd watch boxing or Ultimate Fighter. I have watched those for a time, but it gets boring after a while because there is nothing to it but violence.

Just boring? Not sickening??

> Now, I have seen BDSM video on the net. Whipping people raw, women kicking men in the genitals until they bleed, sticking hypodermic needles into the genitals and breasts, and countless other things I have seen aren't making love. That's just cruelty plain and simple.

NOT if the person they do it to enjoy it.

If they don't enjoy it, then it is cruelty indeed.

Inger

[Guest guest]

" This is also why I don't care for horror movies. "

On the subject of horror movies (since it keep cropping up) not all

are full of violence. Some of the older horror movies are very

atmospheric and lots of suspense with little to no violence or

swearing in - occasionally you get the odd good one with modern ones

too. I quite liked 'Others' and 'Sixth Sense' - I really dislike all

the 'Blade' movies that just seem over the top with action and

violence.

Also some horror books are good too - if they build up suspense and

don't have a load of gore and graphic yuck for graphic yucks sake.

>

>

> In a message dated 3/21/2006 5:52:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> csparania@... writes:

>

> I was rather talking about murder mysteries and such. By claiming

that

> you have to have experienced something, this would suggest the

> respective authors have experience with killing and hiding their

> victims for example.

>

> Lwaxy

>

>

>

> I can see your point. But this is where we get into research. One

can read

> other novels for ideas. Unfortunately, one can also watch the news,

crime

> shows, and so on and find all kinds of grist for stories based on

the things

> people have actually done. I have written stories about characters

attacking into

> a house to get at the bad guys. I've never done that for real, but

I have

> studied the tactics, practiced with a friend who was in the Army

Special Forces,

> and do drills now and then in my own house (not live fire of

course). So,

> even though I have never done it for real, I know how it would

flow. I

> understand the fear of not knowing where the enemy might be or

when you might be

> attacked at very close range.

>

> A crime writer could do the same, to an extent. They could cobble

together

> bits from the news stories to create their own mystery. They might

even plan

> original crimes. Could they take that step over the edge, maybe. I

know that I

> have cleared my own house a few times when I have heard an out of

place noise

> at night or come home and had a strange feeling. For that matter

I've even

> cleared a neighbor's house when we came back from a walk and their

front door

> was unlocked (nothing happened though, they just forgot to lock

it).

>

> The difference here is intent. I don't intend to ever use what I

know to

> harm an innocent, though I may use it to protect them if the

situation arises.

> Likewise, a crime writer intends to tell a story, as do I when I

write. Many of

> my stories feature combat, but if you have read any of them,

you'll see I

> don't go into detail about and my characters rarely use lethal

force against

> other humans. However, these BDSM stories are written by and for

people who DO

> practice it. The intent there may be to tell a story, but they know

they are

> writing to people who will carry out real acts like those they

portray

> fictionally.

>

> That I see is the difference.

>

> Bear in mind, I have also said I don't like gratuitous violence.

I've turned

> off many a money that was nothing but senseless fighting and

killing. This

> is also why I don't care for horror movies.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/22/2006 2:38:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, julie.stevenson16@... writes:

On the subject of horror movies (since it keep cropping up) not all are full of violence. Some of the older horror movies are very atmospheric and lots of suspense with little to no violence or swearing in - occasionally you get the odd good one with modern ones too. I quite liked 'Others' and 'Sixth Sense' - I really dislike all the 'Blade' movies that just seem over the top with action and violence.

This is true. A lot of the ones from the 1950's and earlier relied a great deal on suspense. Many of those were pretty good. What I am referring to is more the sub-genre of the "slasher" film.