Inclusion

[Guest guest]

I know I've written on this before but I feel pretty lucky that my

son has had such a positive experience in the pre-school disabled

program, so please bear with me!

My son was in daycare until he was 2. All the teachers said Oh he is

so great he never bothers anyone. He just goes along with the others.

Not a whole lot was expected of him at this age and we had no idea

what his issues were because " he was just a late talker, aren't all

boys " . Then when I decided to stay home, I enrolled him in a regular

pre-school, 2 afternoons a week to try and keep the social aspect and

hopefully have him model the other children. He was getting Early

Intervention speech which the first 4 months was a waste(but that is

another post). He basically blended in with the other kids. They

really didn't push him so if he didn't want to do circle time, he

didn't. Behaviour wise no complaints and great projects (what a joke,

teachers did a great job). Thankfully they were warm and fuzzy so all

was not lost!

Then when I discovered that his issues weren't going away by

themself, a neurologist said get him into a speech and language

program quick. The day after his 3rd birthday he started in the pre-

school program. The first day was a horror but when he ran onto the

bus the next day not looking back I knew he was happy.

Nine months later my son loves school. The kids in his class also

have speech and language issues, most even talk better then him.

Socially he is accepted and loves to have play dates with them

outside of school. The teachers are wonderful. There is a 1:4 ratio

plus the SLP who is in and out b/w therapies. Everything they do is

focused on learning speech and language. He comes home and sings

songs, sometimes I see him doing hand movements to songs and mouthing

the words. His fine motor skills are coming along, he is almost using

regular scissors. He is pasting and his projects are truly his. Not

perfect but looking at Sept. to now shows me how great he is doing.

Speechwise he is doing great. He has an agressive therapy schedule.

2X privately and 3X in school as well as OT and PT. The school SLP

also participates in free play which I think is great for

socialization skills. They also work with gross motor skills using

scooter boards and balance beams. Even the projects incorporate

sensory items. One activity was ice skating thru shaving cream in

bear feet. He still laughs when I mention it.

From a personal standpoint, I know that my son would not be where he

is today without this program.

Also know your rights, I find it odd that the public school will pay

for a church pre-school. Typically it has to be non-secretarian.

Additionally if their program cannot accommodate him, are there

otheer districts or private schools closeby with a suitable program.

I wish you all the best because I know what a tough decision this is.

denise

> Hi,

> I am interested in how everyone feels regarding inclusion. That is,

> how you feel about our kids being in an educational setting with

> children who speak at an age appropriate level.

>

> I was asked to find a Church Preschool Program (half-day) for my

soon

> to be three year old for this upcoming school year 02-03. The

> thinking behind this is that he would attend the church program

> during the morning and then a couple of times a week receive

therapy

> thru the public school special needs program.

>

> If anyone has experience with inclusion could you let me know how

it

> worked out for you? Your expectations, disappointments, surprises

and

> so on... especially for a young child who will look just like his

> peers but be so *obviously* different.

>

> It's hard as it is now. People who have (ummm) some manners

ask " how

> old is he? " as if I don't get their meaning. I know what they are

> implying, what they are thinking. They are wondering " What is wrong

> with that kid? Shouldn't he be talking now? He's weird/bizzare " and

> then fake a smile and they walk away. Of course, to add fuel to the

> fire, my son will spin in a circle about a thousand times to REALLY

> convince them how RIGHT they are. And so they think whatever they

> think and walk away into land of the normal people about as fast

they

> can.

>

> This I can handle. But I don't know if I can bear to have my son

> realize that he is different. Just two months shy of his 3rd bday

he

> assumes every child is just like him. Will he realize at 3 1/2,

when

> he enters " school " , that HE is different? Will they too smile (or

> scream in fear...it's happened) and run away? It breaks my heart to

> think of this. But I am being encouraged to put him in this

setting.

> And I want him there. But I want it to work out for the good of

> everyone. Okay, I'm getting down from my soapbox to look for the

> kleenex.

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Amy

> Okay, after re-reading this I see that inclusion might actually

make

> him feel more normal than different. Right? I don't know. Ack!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/17/2002 7:26:41 AM GMT Standard Time, amysue99@...

writes:

> I would love to have him receiving intense therapy as well as a

> special needs classroom setting, but depending on the upcoming iep

> that just may not happen. I may have to " make do " in the world of the

> normal and that's a bit intimidating.

>

Hi Amy

Inclusion is a big buzzword in the UK right now, as we have just got new

legislation strengthening the parents' right for this (with appropriate

assistance) if that is what they wish. This whole 'out of sight, out of

mind' thing really bothers me. How can society as a whole learn to respect

and value so-called disabled people unless they come into contact with them

on a daily, everyday basis and come to love and appreciate them as fellow

human beings?

Sorry, not what you were asking, I know, but I had to get on my high horse.

Whatever the outcome, try to get you son mixing with the 'normal' world too.

I know it is difficult, dealing with the curious, nosey and down-right rude

but you do develop a thick(er) skin. I no longer feel the need to explain my

son's medical history to anyone standing by. We DO have great fun being

'normal' , swimming is a particular favourite for my three water-babies. Most

people out there are only ignorant and how would they know otherwise

One day you might get that magical 'Resolved' tag (unthinkable to me only a

short while ago)

Good luck

London, UK

Mum to three, one of whom attends a special needs school and loves it, so no

inclusion for us for a while

[Guest guest]

Well, hmmm, that's not exactly what I meant.

It was hinted to me that my son might NOT be allowed to have the full

day of special needs program that your son does. It may be, in fact,

that he will only receive 1-2 hours per week of ST thru the public

school system versus a special needs preschool class setting which is

what it sounds like your son has.

So it has been said to me that I might want to search out other

options on my own to supplement this. Of course, for a three year old

the only type of " class setting " he might obtain is in a church

program (usually 3x/week, half-days). I would be paying for it and it

would be with developmentally normal children.

My question is really about how effectively a child with obvious

speech delays (old enough to be singled out as different, but too

young to really understand why he's singled out) can transition into

a normal classroom setting with children who have age-appropriate

abilities.

I would love to have him receiving intense therapy as well as a

special needs classroom setting, but depending on the upcoming iep

that just may not happen. I may have to " make do " in the world of the

normal and that's a bit intimidating.

But I am glad to know that your son has enjoyed public school

preschool spec needs program. I hear there are some very good

programs out there. Keeping my fingers crossed that my son will

qualify for it.

Amy

[Guest guest]

Amy,

My son only goes 2 hrs and 15 minutes a day. I think 10 hours a week

is the minimum. 1 hr. of speech and 1 hr. of OT an PT to build upper

body strength to increase breathal support and reinforce fine motor

and gross motor issues. The full day program is for children in the

autistic spectrum who have more severe issues that cannot be handled

in the shorter program.

I don't know how severe your son's apraxia is, but if I am not

mistaken if he falls into I think it is 30% delay that would qualify

him or 25% in more than 1 area. Have they given you a full evaluation

yet of all the areas, fine motor, gross motor, etc..? What does your

Dr. think?

Please someone else jump in here. Something doesn't sound quite right

here. If your son qualifies for their therapy, then why not their

classroom. Also within the law if they do not have an appropriate

program 1/2 day or whatever they have to pay for an alternate program

which could also mean an inclusion classroom that they approve of or

a private program for children with special needs. If you post to the

IEP-GUide list serve, I am sure you will get the real legal answer!

In terms of the inclusion with " normal " kids, I think that if it is

the appropriate setting with the right teachers it can work for all

the kids.

OK, I'll be quiet now!

> Well, hmmm, that's not exactly what I meant.

>

> It was hinted to me that my son might NOT be allowed to have the

full

> day of special needs program that your son does. It may be, in

fact,

> that he will only receive 1-2 hours per week of ST thru the public

> school system versus a special needs preschool class setting which

is

> what it sounds like your son has.

>

> So it has been said to me that I might want to search out other

> options on my own to supplement this. Of course, for a three year

old

> the only type of " class setting " he might obtain is in a church

> program (usually 3x/week, half-days). I would be paying for it and

it

> would be with developmentally normal children.

>

> My question is really about how effectively a child with obvious

> speech delays (old enough to be singled out as different, but too

> young to really understand why he's singled out) can transition

into

> a normal classroom setting with children who have age-appropriate

> abilities.

>

> I would love to have him receiving intense therapy as well as a

> special needs classroom setting, but depending on the upcoming iep

> that just may not happen. I may have to " make do " in the world of

the

> normal and that's a bit intimidating.

>

> But I am glad to know that your son has enjoyed public school

> preschool spec needs program. I hear there are some very good

> programs out there. Keeping my fingers crossed that my son will

> qualify for it.

>

> Amy

[Guest guest]

No, no, DOn't be quiet. I really need your opinion. : )

Sorry I assumed you son was in a full day. I guess I figured that

there was no way they could do all that fun stuff in just an hour or

two. : ) I shouldn't have asssumed. Sorry.

I start my iep process tomorrow. I talk with the Director of the

Special Needs Program about setting up the eval and so on and so

forth. My Babies Can't Wait co-ordinator said (her estimation here)

my son would prob only get 1-2hrs of speech therapy a week thru pub

sch spec needs progam and that the SLP's might even come to the home

versus a spec needs class setting.

Anyway, moving on from that... I feel my son has some sensory issues

and definitely verbal dyspraxia. I saw a new SLP last week who thinks

he may even have oral apraxia. So, in MY opinion, my son could really

benefit from more than a measly 1 hour per week of therapy. And I

really want his sensory issues addressed. So I have been preparing

my " case " all week/weekend. (Right now his diagnosis is mild speech

delay which is just totally ridiculous. I was so naiive when they did

the evals last year.)

THe thing is, I would love for him to be in a classroom setting. And

I really think he can benefit from both " normal " (I am beginning to

hate that word) and " special needs " programs. However, I kinda feel

that a spec needs class setting would be able to focus on his

specific needs versus his being dragged around and singled out in a

setting that may be too advanced or confusing for him.

Personally, I remember what it was like to be in classes that were

way too advanced/inappropriate for me. I DID burn out and it was a

horrible frustrating experience. I didn't fit in and I knew it and it

was miserable. I know it's important for him to rub shoulders with

normal kids (that's all we do right now anyway), but I also realize

that there is a certain level of comfort and happiness that comes

with being with your (true) peers and doing " school work " that isn't

way over your head. On the other hand, the normal classroom setting

could totally work out, it could possibly be a really great thing for

him. I just have no idea which is best. I really like hearing other

people's situations. It grounds me.

One last thing.. time is such a factor. If I need to to find a church

pre-school, I'll have to scurry as they all fill up by March. So I

have to make my decisions quick! You can't sense the panic, can you?

LOL!

Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's input. I go to my first

support group on THursday for parents of developmentally delayed kids

so hopefully I will hear some interesting things there too. Thank

you for taking the time to tell me about your thoughts and

situations. It really helps!

Amy : )

Also, I know it's been said that apraxic kids do best with one on one

therapy versus class setting due to the nature of the condition. So

it will be very interesting to see what they end up doing with him. I

will keep you posted!

--- In @y..., " DMon98 " <dmharrison98@y...>

wrote:

> Amy,

>

> My son only goes 2 hrs and 15 minutes a day. I think 10 hours a

week

> is the minimum. 1 hr. of speech and 1 hr. of OT an PT to build

upper

> body strength to increase breathal support and reinforce fine motor

> and gross motor issues. The full day program is for children in the

> autistic spectrum who have more severe issues that cannot be

handled

> in the shorter program.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Amy,

I just wanted to reply to let you know that you are not alone. I am still

trying to decide what to do with my 7 year old, . Next year, for 2nd

grade, should I keep him in public school, where the older the kids get, the

meaner they are? Or should I send him to private school, which is smaller and

the teachers will not tolerate bullying?? I keep switching from wanting to

protect him

from the world, to wanting to let him stick up for himself.

Anyway, here is my experience from when was a soon to be 3 year old He

was enrolled in a 'normal' preschool, only because I didn't realize how far

behind he was until we got there! So, he was fine in the class as far as

knowing the routine, behaving and playing (alone) but it broke MY heart to see

how far behind he was. I really don't think he noticed and the other kids

didn't

notice or make fun of him, but they did not ask him to play either. But he

didn't ask to be included, so it worked out. They just kind of parallel played

all year. After that year, and I realized there was a problem, THEN I had him

evaluated and accepted into the preschool disabled program.

He didn't realize he was 'not normal' or that he was with 'not normal' kids, I

just told him he was going to a new school. He was thrilled to take the bus (I

followed it of course for the first week). The kids all look normal, so he

never questioned why he was there.

Even today, he is in mainstream first grade and doing well academically (pulled

out for ST, OT, and PT, but not a big deal, no one cares). His classmates like

him and he has alot of fun. He is invited to birthday parties, but he is not

asked over for playdates and when the kids go outside to play, my son will find

the special ed kids and play with them (which is fine, but shows he knows he

is not ready to be 'included' with the normal kids' recess play). But I think

this has more to do with his lack of gross motor skills, than communication

problems.

This is a tough one, I think a positive side of this hard decision for you, is

that your son is so young and this coming school year can be an experiment

without being detrimental to his future academic\social career. Does he go to

Sunday School? Maybe you can see how he survives in that situation? Also,

since he is a boy, the boy play seems to depend less on verbal communication

than

the chatty girl play.

Now that I have written this, I think you do have a nice situation. The best of

both worlds. Go to school in the morning with everyone and in the afternoon,

get a little extra help. And you are right, it is going to be you and the other

parents that are uncomfortable (if at all), but the kids will be fine. I think

they are so excited to be going to school like big kids that they are

looking to make friends, not alienate anyone. There may even be other children

in the class with undiagnosed problems.

I am totally rambling now. Good luck with your decision.

Liz Dunn\Ridgewood NJ - Mom to , 7 Dyspraxia and Wesley, 4 Non-stop talker

romemommy wrote:

> Hi,

> I am interested in how everyone feels regarding inclusion. That is,

> how you feel about our kids being in an educational setting with

> children who speak at an age appropriate level.

>

> I was asked to find a Church Preschool Program (half-day) for my soon

> to be three year old for this upcoming school year 02-03. The

> thinking behind this is that he would attend the church program

> during the morning and then a couple of times a week receive therapy

> thru the public school special needs program.

>

> If anyone has experience with inclusion could you let me know how it

> worked out for you? Your expectations, disappointments, surprises and

> so on... especially for a young child who will look just like his

> peers but be so *obviously* different.

>

> It's hard as it is now. People who have (ummm) some manners ask " how

> old is he? " as if I don't get their meaning. I know what they are

> implying, what they are thinking. They are wondering " What is wrong

> with that kid? Shouldn't he be talking now? He's weird/bizzare " and

> then fake a smile and they walk away. Of course, to add fuel to the

> fire, my son will spin in a circle about a thousand times to REALLY

> convince them how RIGHT they are. And so they think whatever they

> think and walk away into land of the normal people about as fast they

> can.

>

> This I can handle. But I don't know if I can bear to have my son

> realize that he is different. Just two months shy of his 3rd bday he

> assumes every child is just like him. Will he realize at 3 1/2, when

> he enters " school " , that HE is different? Will they too smile (or

> scream in fear...it's happened) and run away? It breaks my heart to

> think of this. But I am being encouraged to put him in this setting.

> And I want him there. But I want it to work out for the good of

> everyone. Okay, I'm getting down from my soapbox to look for the

> kleenex.

>

> Thanks in advance,

> Amy

> Okay, after re-reading this I see that inclusion might actually make

> him feel more normal than different. Right? I don't know. Ack!

>

>

> " Not Just A Late Talker " A half and hour TV talk show about verbal apraxia

featuring parents and professionals from CHERAB http://www.apraxia.cc aired

again on Friday, January 25th at 6:00 PM EST on CN8 on a show called " Real Life "

Once again only the TV viewers could watch it since so many tried to watch

online it crashed the server. It will re air again, and we'll keep you

notified.

>

> " Children Should Be Seen ... And Heard! " CHERAB T Shirt fund raiser available

this week. Buy a CHERAB T Shirt for $15.99, and the video tape of the Not Just

A Late Talker TV show will be sent with it free. More details soon at

http://www.apraxia.cc

>

> Like information but not emails? Choose the option of " no emails web only " to

read, respond to, or post messages directly from the website. For all the

emails sent in one choose " digest. " If you need help with membership options,

please email , , Rhonda, or at

-owner

>

> If you are looking for support in your own area, contact CHERAB's Outreach

Coordinator at nicole@...

>

> URL to the home page to change options/or to search the archives:

>

> The opinions expressed on this forum are the opinions of the individuals, not

the CHERAB Foundation. Medical advice should be sought before implementing any

therapeutic treatment.

> Post message:

> List owner: -owner

> For more information: http://www.apraxia.cc

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is my experience. I have 5 year old twins, one with mild

speech problems and the other with severe apraxia. I will say that

both of my girls have good attention spans, and seem to have good

social skills. I've never seen any real behavior problems at

school.

Just before they were 3, we put both of them in a regular preschool.

They both loved the school, but wasn't getting enough speech.

At 3, , the one with severe apraxia, qualified for a special

day class through the school district. We put her in because we

thought she would get more services. She hated it, and after a few

months we pulled her out.

At 4, we put both of them back into the private preschool. It was

an adjustment for , but she adjusted and at the end of the year

she participated in everything including singing. She sat in front

of the parents with her class and sang and did finger plays. She

could only say a few of the words, but at least she was trying.

Some of the other kids got scared and ran to their parents.

This year they are both in private preschool. is doing great.

Her teacher just evaluated her, and I'm anxious to get the results.

has lots of friends, and she participates in everything.

Academically, she does okay. She is still is hard to understand,

but she talks a lot more than she use to.

For kindegarten, I'm going to have in a regular kindegarten

class and then pulled out for services. If she can't handle it,

then we'll consider putting her in a special day class.

My daughters school has been very good at accomodating them. When I

was looking at preschools, I had one preschool at a church basically

say they don't like kids with speech problems. They said they

usually act out with biting and hitting. Needless to say, I did

not put my kids in that school.

I had another friend who put her son in the same school as my

daughters. He had a horrible time, and she pulled him out. I think

he was having more behavior problems. He's in a regular kindegarten

now, and he is doing okay.

Every kid is different, so trust your instincts about your child.

Good luck!

Suzi

> Hi,

> I am interested in how everyone feels regarding inclusion. That

is,

> how you feel about our kids being in an educational setting with

> children who speak at an age appropriate level.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Does he understand okay? There are a lot of kids that can speak,

but don't in a preschool setting. If he can understand and

participate okay, then it will probably be okay. Also, talk to the

teacher and see how she feels about it.

> My question is really about how effectively a child with obvious

> speech delays (old enough to be singled out as different, but too

> young to really understand why he's singled out) can transition

into

> a normal classroom setting with children who have age-appropriate

> abilities.

>

> I would love to have him receiving intense therapy as well as a

> special needs classroom setting, but depending on the upcoming iep

> that just may not happen. I may have to " make do " in the world of

the

> normal and that's a bit intimidating.

>

> But I am glad to know that your son has enjoyed public school

> preschool spec needs program. I hear there are some very good

> programs out there. Keeping my fingers crossed that my son will

> qualify for it.

>

> Amy

[Guest guest]

One of twins qualified for just speech and the other qualified for

the special day class. The one that qualified for speech just had

a delay in expressive speech, and everything else was normal or

above normal. My other daughter had other delays besides expressive

speech, and that is why she qualified.

Suzi

>

> Please someone else jump in here. Something doesn't sound quite

right

> here. If your son qualifies for their therapy, then why not their

> classroom. Also within the law if they do not have an appropriate

> program 1/2 day or whatever they have to pay for an alternate

program

> which could also mean an inclusion classroom that they approve of

or

> a private program for children with special needs. If you post to

the

> IEP-GUide list serve, I am sure you will get the real legal answer!

>

> In terms of the inclusion with " normal " kids, I think that if it

is

> the appropriate setting with the right teachers it can work for

all

> the kids.

>

> OK, I'll be quiet now!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You can always insist on more therapy for your son. That is what we

are in process of doing right now. We asked for 90 minutes of

private speech a week. The school district said that they could add

that they should be evaluated for the appropriateness of 90 minutes

of private speech. The new speech therapist is evaluating them

right now, and if we don't like what she says then we'll call

another IEP.

Good luck

[Guest guest]

My son has always been in the inclusion program since pre school.He is now

in first grade.I think it is great.He is so social and just loves school! For

him he only is pulled out for his therapies everyday and that hasn't been a

problem.He attends all of the special activities, such as music,art and PE

with all of the other kids.There are two boys in his class that have their

own teacher and only are in the classroom for short amount of times.I also

think that the program is wonderful because the regular kids( which I hate

that word) are around kids that are special needs and learn to be accepting

and the special needs kids are around kids that are regular.They learn to be

more tolerant of each other.They have been doing this in the school district

that we are in for about 10 years.Hope this helps.Gretchen mother to

who is 7 with apraxia

[Guest guest]

My 7 year old son has asked why my 5 year daughters don't speak like

other kids their age. My son's friends also ask a lot of questions

about it.

I've told them that their muscles don't work like other kids, and

that they are learning how to use their muscles to speak correctly.

I tell them that the speech therapist help them learn how to talk

correctly.

One of my daughters has severe speech problems caused by brain

damage. I ususally don't mention the brain damage because I don't

want people to think she is mentally retarded.

Suzi

--- In @y..., " Deborah Abrams " <dabrams212@y...>

wrote:

> Barbara asked what I told my son when he asked me " Why I talk

different " ?

If anyone has any ideas of how to tell a child about their battle with language

in a very special way, I too would love any ideas.

Deborah

[Guest guest]

I wanted to add to what Cheryl does with her students--which is a terrific

idea that all teachers should do!!!!!!. I teach Kindergarten and that is my

number one rule from the first day of school..no teasing and hurting other

people's feelings and we are all different on the outside (how we act and

talk and work, etc) but all have the same feelings (sad, embarrassed, etc) on

the inside. On back to school night I emphasize this to my parents and that

their child might not know all 26 letters and sounds,by the end of the year

etc but they will be kind and compassionate and I do not TOLERATE anything

else. This rule is reinforced daily...we even watched the Trumpet and the

Swan this week and it was so cute how they reacted to the movie....we kind of

talked a bit throughout it about feelings, etc. ...and yes, the other kids

take the child with the " disability " or whatever under their wings...even as

far as behavior problems....I have this little girl who has had behavior

probs the entire year...these last couple of weeks she has really

tried....and the other students have been going up to her and saying " you did

such a good job today and tried so hard " ..it really is touching...I keep my

kleenex close by....I also always take the " kind " student off to the side as

not to embarrass the other student and tell them how proud I am of them etc.

Just today I watched a 6th grader who must be almost 6 feet tall play

football after school with other 6th graders. One boy who entered school

maybe 2 months ago uses a walker and he wanted to play, too.....well it was

warm today and he could not take off his winter coat and hold onto the walker

and watch for the football....(who is cool) stopped the game and helped

him with his coat...it came so natural for him to help this boy that I could

have sobbed.....I taught a few years ago and to see how he matured was

amazing...I did talk to him afterward and praised him and told him how

impressed I was.....I know I have rambled...but kids are truly amazing...sure

you are going to get the bullies....but my kids (students) even put their

arms around the others to help them....I think it helps to have the right

teacher and those expectations explained to the students in the beginning of

the year....as you can see this is a HUGE area that I concentrate on and have

strong feelings about....even before I had my apraxic twins....Kathy

[Guest guest]

<< How much tolerance is displayed in the " normal " preschool? How much are

" differences " celebrated? How aware are they of the next skill/challenge

your child has to develop and then making the social

environment a positive factor in helping your child take the next step?? I

know all this sounds very philosophical.......but a question

like how do you feel about " inclusion " really brings up a lot of big real

questions. Just what I can think of right now >>

I just read this after sending in my own " two cents. " I agree with Carol's

comments more than my own!! Thanks. Sue C. in Michigan