Looking for information

[Guest guest]

For M.S. you might inquire into the Jeunesse Institute.

www.epdcancerclinic.com

Phone # 714842-1777. They are networked to research around the world for

almost every disease. If they don't treat it, they can direct you.

Carol

[Guest guest]

<A

HREF= " http://dem0nmac.mgh.harvard.edu/neurowebforum/MultipleSclerosisArticles/

TreatingMSwithAntibiotics.html " >Treating MS with Antibiotics</A>

Treating MS with Antibiotics

This article submitted by Dan Osborne on 7/22/96.

Author's Email: dosborne@...

Thanks again to Danger Alvarez for bringing this up (see " Curing MS w

Antibiotics, a Hoax? 5/2/96). I asked Dr. Lindner some questions via e-mail.

He replied to the questions, and also sent three papers: Experimental

Treatment Protocols for New Bacterium; Nutrition and Lifestyle Suggestions;

and Culture Shipping Information, for shipping blood samples. Following is a

summary of the twenty pages he sent.

Dr. Luther Lindner is a physician (pathologist) on the faculty of Texas A & M

University, College of Medicine. He is studying a bacterium which seems to be

associated with chronic fatigue and immune dysfunction syndrome (CFIDS),

fibromyalgia, and several autoimmune disorders including multiple sclerosis,

lupus erythematosis, and rheumatoid arthritis. Opinion differs on whether

this bacterium is a true spirochete; whether it is or not, it is clearly not

the spirochete which causes Lyme Disease.

This bacterium has been found in essentially all persons tested, both those

with the above maladies, and persons who are healthy. Persons with symptoms

usually have higher levels than healthy persons, but not always. About 100 MS

patients have been tested, and about the same number of CFIDS patients. In

both groups, when a patient has an increase in bacterial level, it

corresponds with worsening symptoms; a lowering of the bacterial level

corresponds with improving symptoms, or a lack of symptoms.

Dr. Lindner does not take patients directly for treatment. He tests blood

samples for the bacterium, he tests the particular strain for response to

various antibiotics, and he will advise your physician on recommended levels

of particular antibiotics. Some strains of the bacterium are resistant to all

currently available antibiotics. As treatment progresses, blood levels should

be periodically checked. The testing of blood samples used to be free, but no

more: it is now $40 US. The antibiotics run about $300 per month. About 20 to

25% of MS patients are greatly helped, and another 25% are helped some. More

than half of the patients are helped very little or not at all. The CFIDS

patients respond somewhat better. A few MS patients seem to have been made

worse by antibiotic treatment.

In medical terms, patients who stop having attacks are not " cured " , they are

only " in remission " . The bacteria are still present in low levels. Nutrition

and lifetyle changes are suggested in order to suppress the bacteria.

In addition to antibiotics, and as an alternative, Dr. Lindner provides

several pages of suggestions for a nutrition and lifestyle approach to

treatment. Certain metals, particularly copper, stimulate bacterial growth

and should be avoided; zinc suppresses growth of these bacteria, and intake

is recommended. Vitamins, herbs, and stuff I had never heard of is discussed.

There are no figures for the percentage of patients helped by these methods.

I asked Dr. Lindner why so little attention has been given to this in the MS

community. He gave several reasons: 1) The initial work is still in progress,

and nothing has been published in any medical journal. 2) Medical dogma says

that there are no bacteria in the bloodstream or the cerebrospinal fluid.

This bacteria is found in those places. 3) Medical dogma also says that MS is

caused by a virus or an autoimmune dysfunction.

Dr. Lindner clearly states that this is an experimental treatment, and any

patient should be fully aware of that fact. Many doctors will not spend time

and money on an experimental treatment.

Medical dogma says that there is no evidence that antibiotics can help MS.

Patient success stories do not constitute evidence. Only controlled studies

are evidence.

For patient success stories, spirochete background, published articles on

bacteria and MS, status of a controlled study on this treatment in

Saskatchewan, and Dr. Lindner's e-mail address, see Grahame 's MS page

at:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/G/

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[Guest guest]

Dear Lee-Anne,

Have a read of all this (long) regarding connections between MS and infection

- hence antibiotic therapy.

Chris.

_______________________________________________

MS Cause Discovered? updated 4-29-00

Summary

FLASH!!

1-There is now news that bacteriums like C pneumoniae were identified some 36

years ago, and in trials with antibiotics, (on 30

patients with progressive MS, (no double blinding) to avoid false conclusions

from remissions) achieved very good outcomes, even

on a progressive patient, bedridden with the disease for 30 years. Read .This

work was done in Belgium, published in French. The

translation is here!

More to read about Rickettsia.

This work (the translation) appears to be of critical importance, and causes

great concern for what should have been routine follow up

testing-what happened to science? to logic? Why was the information ignored,

not just in the US, where the language may have been

a barrier, but also in France and Belgium? We MS sufferers have been unable

to benefit from basic work done 36 years ago; it is a

sad commentary on the professionals who run the research activities here and

abroad.

But, now, we are moving ahead-will the MS society get behind this work, and

expand its efforts? Or will they continue to downplay

the VU work as unproven-and question its validity, in light of several reports

where investigators could not find C pneumoniae in

100% of the MS patients. They need to speak up, as there is a body of scientific

data which is now not possible to ignore. Antibiotic

therapy-where there is an infection- seems to be firmly established.

Since the solution is simple-antibiotic therapy, there is not great money to

be made from medicines like the A,B,C medicines;

$1000/month, whereas antibiotics will cost 10-20% of that amount, or less,

and may actually do some good. And where is the US

government in this? If it were AIDS related, it would already be funded and

in trials. So, we are left alone, to solve it ourselves, with

VU being the sole support. As of today, 4-29-00, the National MS society has

not seen fit to fund Srirams follow up program. From

a scientific view this is outrageous.

Please send me your e-mail address, so that I may send you information as to

how to send a targeted

donation to VU. If possible, send me the e-mail addresses of others with MS,

so I can send the information

to them, too; or do it yourself. Thanks-

2-Vanderbilt University has reported on the discovery of a probable link between

a bacterium, Chlamydia pneumoniae, and MS.

Verification is needed-but may already exist in the 1964 work noted above.

Challenges

to VU's work thus far have been based on

laboratory work less skillful than that used at VU.

The discovery of chlamydia pneumoniae bacterium, or antibodies to the bacterium,

or other traces of

C. pneumoniae, in the CSF of ALL 37 MS patients tested in a study at Vanderbilt

University, (vs 18% of people with other

neurological diseases- OND) appears to be a breakthrough, as viruses had been

the only suspects (in recent years) until now.

Read. It is significant when all MS people tested have the bacterium, and only

18% of OND people have it. Test contamination is not

a suspect. From a probability view, it is highly unlikely to be casual that

ALL MS patients had traces of C. pneumoniae. This does

not rule out genetics as a partial and necessary cause of MS. Three people

(two with MS, one with OND) treated with antibiotics

by VU were made much better; showing an improvement with antibacterial

treatment,

and, in the only case for which there is data,

removal of C. pneumoniae from the CSF, and the clearing up of many MS or other

neurological symptoms. A Fourth (with long term,

progressive MS) is under treatment still, with a little improvement shown after

one year. Others, now three, in addition, have been

found and are reported on here. I and three others, all long term MS patients

are also in treatment, each using different antibiotics.

The two articles, in ls of Neurology, July 1999,and the Case Study,

Neurology,

Feb 1998, present a remarkable discovery (or

rediscovery) about C pneumoniae and MS, and show remarkable improvement in the

case study patient following antibiotic therapy.

The NMSS spent $24 million on research in 1999, of $134 million raised; and

$74 million on support programs. $21.8 million was

spent to raise all this money ( more than the amount spent on research).This

data comes directly from their homepage, nmss.org. this

is sinful, so little going to research, so much to social activity. Tell your

friends.

********************************************************************************\

**

It is crucial that you become familiar with which antibiotics can cross the

blood-brain-barrier, and destroy C. pneumoniae. True,

VU is able to use multiple antibiotics at one time, thereby trying to get a

synergistic effect. note that one antibiotic may be selected

for its efficacy at crossing the BBB, and killing C pneumoniae, while a second

may be chosen for its effectivity in doing the job in the

rest of the body.

Tests done at VU for C. pneumoniae, and results, are summarized here:

They used three methods of test on CSF and blood.

1-Culture of C Pneumoniae-80% of progressives, positive,- 47% of relapsing

rem, positive

2-IGG antibodies 7 of 20 progressives positive, -15 of 17 rel-rem positive

3-PCR test-all but one MS patient were positive.

With all tests considered, ALL showed C pneumoniae signs.

Getting rid of-or reducing- C. pneumoniae resulted in improving clinical

condition.

We present individual reports about eight people with MS who have had, or are

having, antibiotic therapy.

Finally, some of the antibiotics that attack C. pneumoniae, and which cross

the Blood Brain Barrier (BBB), are listed; and critical

data, related to the ease of passage, and concentration required to kill C.

pneumoniae are presented.

Can all of the results from VU, and the others listed here be just coincidence?

or accident, or contaminated samples, or fraud?

Unlikely, but there seem to be vested interests here. Research into the cause

of MS and some other diseases-like CVD, asthma,

lung cancer, has been misdirected, if VU and the other medical studies

referenced

here are proven right. The medical profession is

toting out big guns to shoot down the Sriram work-and by definition- the Le

Gac work.

What is required now is confirmation of VU's results including antibacterial

treatment, and results, by one or more centers for MS.

That would be scientifically " the silver bullet " . The VU multicenter trials

(two centers) should partially satisfy that need-but, as

mentioned above they have not been able to get funding. Reportedly they will

treat eight patients at each center. Vanderbilt

University will evaluate several antibiotics, ( as of 3-15-00, probably rifampin

and zithromax together), and treatment protocols

(such as vitamin B12 shots), in an attempt to prove the theory that C.

pneumoniae

is a pathogen for MS. If they can find C.

pneumoniae, and improve some or all of the patients who have C. pneumoniae

in their CSF, then the proof will have been presented.

This effort will take over one year.

The objective, of course, is to first detect C. pneumoniae in the new group

(one would expect near 100% success), then use

antibiotics to get rid of the C. pneumoniae infection, in minimum time, and

minimize potential damaging side effects.

There will be multicenter trials in Germany, using Roxythromycin, to determine

if there is a beneficial effect from antibiotics; these

tests should begin in 2000. Unfortunately Roxi is a Macrolide, a class of

antibiotics

which do not pass the BBB very well-that is in

concentration high enough to kill C. pneumoniae.

In a practical sense we already have the proof of C pneumoniae and possibly

other bacteriums being the pathogens that-

along with a presumed genetic predisposition- causes MS in susceptible people.

If the MS symptoms are removed by taking

antibiotics, that assuredly tells us that C. pneumoniae, and/or whatever else

is killed by the antibiotics allows healing to take place.

Vitamin B12 therapy may be crucial to the healing process, as it is needed for

myelin growth. It is not known what else might be done

to promote healing of the myelin.

Of course, if there was permanent damage done, as there may be to axons, there

will be no healing of that.This is the crux of the

problem now-how to promote healing of myelin and other nerve elements. It may

take a long time, based on the non-scientific

sampling of data we have. Clearly, treatment is in order as soon as possible

after diagnosis, to minimize permanent axonal damage.

So, the stages in recovery, which overlap, are: killing C pneumoniae in CSF

and the rest of the body; myelin

regrowth; axon regeneration; recovery of function (legs,etc; which may require

considerable exercise)

This treatment isn't like other medicines, where the mechanism of action is

not known and the scientists rely on " statistics " to prove

that a medicine is effective.Doctors have identified the pathogen, and the

treatment

is a direct attack on the identified pathogen. It

should work, that is, clearing up the infection, barring permanent damage, for

100% of MS patients who have C. pneumoniae. Healing

is the remaining unknown.

Now, it is unclear if axonal damage can be healed. There is a little literature

which suggests that the body may generate alternate

pathways, and new axons- pray that that be true. I await the Belgian translation

to see what happened to the people with long term

progressive MS.

Another View

There is a report by Luther Lindner, M.D., at Texas A & M, that is worth reading.

He finds a bacterium in people with MS but it is not,

apparently, C. pneumoniae. He treats with antibiotics, too, and gets some good

results. He does, in my opinion, name some

antibiotics that do not cross the BBB well. He gives his phone number and

invites

all to submit blood samples for test. Well written.

All the information on individuals treated by Vanderbilt, or their own doctors,

is here

Now we have news from NY and Sweden that debunks the VU work. Sweden found no

C pneumoniae in MS patients, or other

patients, 99 in all; they did find antibodies to C pneumoniae, but more

frequently

in non MS patients. Then they simply offer this as a

prof that VU was wrong.

Well, the eight people who are reported on here debunk that proof, as does the

Le Gac work. They did not consider the possibility

that a genetic predisposition may have contributed; they did not attempt to

use antibiotics on any patients to see, just see, if they

work; and finally, it is not clear if they used test techniques and quality

of testing as good as those used at VU. VU seems to do it

right; the debunkers have their own agenda, and the 1964 work would put them

behind the 8-ball.

******************************************************************************

Partial list of antibiotics which have been used against C. pneumoniae-in blood

or CSF.

OFLOXACIN (racemic mixture) a fluoroquinolone

RIFAMPIN lipophilic -----------------in plans for VU tests

METRONIDAZOLE (Flagyl)- lipophilic

COTRIMOXAZOLE (Bactrim) a sulfa drug

SPARFLOXACIN (Zagam) a fluoroquinolone

LEVOFLOXACIN (L isomer of Ofloxacin) a fluoroquinolone

DOXYCYCLINE (vibramycin) a tetracycline type-lipophilic.

MINOCYCLINE-a Tetracycline

GREPAFLOXACIN-

AMOXICILLIN- a penicillin type, passes BBB only weakly

BIAXIN-a macrolide-passes BBB weakly

ZITHROMAX- a macrlide-passes BBB weakly

ERYTHROMYCIN a macrolide---passes BBB, but not as well as other antibiotics.

********************************************************

In order to kill pathogens, there must be at least a certain minimum

concentration

of antibiotic--

MIC=minimum inhibitory concentration.

MBC=minimum bactericidal concentration-the killing concentration.

**********************

Table of Antibiotic properties in CSF-For Those That Cross BBB Easily

(units: micrograms/milliliter)

Pathogen is C. pneumoniae

The way to read this table is to look for MBC values that are less than the

CSF concentration. Those antibiotics will be effective

against C.pneumoniae. Those MBC values are underlined. More data are needed

to complete the table, and will be added as found.

Ofloxacin CSF level=.9-4; at dose of 200 mg, b.i.d.; MBC=.5,

Rifampin CSF level=.4-1; 600 mg/day;MBC=.005-.1

Moxifloxacin CSF level= >.125; with dose ----- MBC=.01-.125

Doxycycline CSF level =.5-2.6; with dose of 200 mg/day; MBC= .06-.5;

Isoniazid CSF level= 2.4-4; at dose of 300 mg/day; MBC=?

Metronidazole CSF level= >10xMIC; at dose of 2.4 mg/day

Cotrimoxazole CSF level=---, with dose=---; MBC=---

Sparfloxacin CSF level=---, with dose=---; MBC=.063

Grepafloxacin CSF level=---,with dose=---; MIC=MBC=.06-.12

Levofloxacin- at least as effective as Ofloxacin as it is 100% levo (active)

isomer MBC= < .5

Minocycline CSF level=.65-.83;at dose of 400 mg/day; MBC= .25

***************************************************************************

Properties of Antibiotics which cross the BBB less well.

Erythromycin CSF level=?; MBC=.25-1.0 or .05-.1

Amoxicillin CSF level=.35; at dose of 33mg/kg, or 1600 mg/day for 110

pound person

***********************************************************************

***********************************************************************

Antibiotics effective against C pneumoniae but which do NOT cross the BBB

-except possibly, minutely. Thus they cannot effectively act on C pneumoniae

in CSF, but may be effective for CP in the rest of

the body. thus they can be of use in multiple antibiotic treatment regimen.

Roxythromycin-Macrolide-used in multicenter trials in Germany, to start in 2000.

Data not available.

Biaxin (clarithromycin)-MacrolideCSF level=.02, at single dose of 500 mg;

MBC=.125or

..03

Azithromycin-(Zithromax)-Macrolide MBC= .25-1;or .05; CSF level low.--in VU

study

Vancomycin, a glycopeptide with M.W. of 1485.7, a very large molecule.

For those interested, here are the facts:

*************************************************************************

Clin Pharmacokinet 1989 Apr;16(4):193-214 Related Articles, Books

Clinical pharmacokinetic properties of the macrolide antibiotics.

Effects of age and various pathophysiological states (Part I).

Periti P, Mazzei T, Mini E, Novelli A

Department of Preclinical and Clinical Pharmacology, University of Florence,

Italy.

The pharmacokinetic aspects in humans of macrolide antibiotics that are

currently

or soon to be on the market (i.e. erythromycin,

oleandomycin, spiramycin, josamycin, midecamycin, miocamycin,

rosaramycin, roxithromycin and azithromycin) are reviewed. Macrolide antibiotics

are basic compounds,

poorly soluble in water, which are mostly absorbed in the alkaline intestinal

environment. They are acid unstable, but the newer

semisynthetic derivatives (i.e. roxithromycin and azithromycin) are

characterised

by increased stability under acidic conditions.

Macrolides are highly soluble and consequently penetrate well

into tissue, especially bronchial secretions, prostatic

tissue, middle ear exudates and bone tissues, as evidenced by tissue/serum

concentration ratios greater than 1. They do not

penetrate well into the CSF. Macrolides undergo extensive biotransformation

in the liver. With a few exceptions (e.g.

miocamycin), the metabolites of these drugs are characterised by little or no

antimicrobial activity. Plasma protein binding is variable

from one compound to another. At therapeutic concentrations, protein-bound

erythromycin accounts for 80 to 90% of the total drug present in the blood,

and the fraction is 95% for roxithromycin. The lowest

values of protein-bound fraction are observed for midecamycin and josamycin

(about 15%), and intermediate values are reported for

spiramycin and miocamycin. However, the clinical

relevance of this parameter is not clearly established. Plasma half-life values

vary for the macrolides described:

erythromycin, oleandomycin, josamycin and miocamycin have a t1/2 ranging from

1 to 2 hours; spiramycin, erythromycin stearate, the

mercaptosuccinate salt of propionyl erythromycin and rosaramicin have an

intermediate

t1/2 (about 7, 6.5, 5 and 4.5 hours,

respectively); the newer semisynthetic compounds roxithromycin and

azithromycin

are characterised by high t1/2 values (i.e. 11

and 41 hours, respectively). Under normal conditions, the major route of

elimination

is the liver. Renal

elimination also takes place but it contributes to total clearance only to a

small degree, as evidenced by low renal clearance values.

The degree of modification of macrolide pharmacokinetics by renal insufficiency

or hepatic disease is usually not considered clinically

relevant, and no recommendation for dose modification is necessary in these

patients. The pharmacokinetics of macrolides are

modified in elderly patients. Accordingly, their use must be accompanied by

a closer than usual clinical monitoring of the older patient.

************************************************************************

Related Ilnesses.

C. pneumoniae has been accepted as a causative factor in Cardiovascular Disease.

Pfizer is now carrying out trials using the

antibiotic Zithromax, as a way to prevent atherosclerosis, using 3500 people

in the test. The study is code named " Wizard " . Note

that Zithromax, though highly regarded, is reported to NOT cross the Blood Brain

Barrier.Therefore it should not be useful in MS

treatment.

C. pneumoniae is also thought to be related to Bronchitis.

Another study has found C. pneumoniae involvement in Chronic Obstructive

Pulmonary

disease and Asthma.

And high blood pressure.

Now there is also reason to suspect a relation between C pneumoniae and lung

cancer.

A Forbes Magazine article, which describes all the illnesses which may be

related

to C pneumoniae

********************************************************************************\

****

Do you know of trials or studies of C. pneumoniae for MS? Or people taking

antibiotics

to help their MS?

If you know something about this subject please let me know by email.

ROBERT MILLERrobert016@...

> Dear Group.

>I would like to know if anyone has any information on MS. I haven't

>seen Ap mentioned in terms of treatment but if anyone knows of anything

>that could be helpful (ANYTHING), please let me know. A very nice lady

>is suffering and looking for alternative treatments.

>Thank you in advance,

>Lee-Anne

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>1/4113/0/_/532797/_/959652616/

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>

[Guest guest]

My son's IEP meeting is in two weeks and I am frantically trying to prepare

for it.

Currently, he recieves 30 minutes of group speech and 20 minutes individual

speech per week. The 20 minutes of individual is given in the classroom in a

cubby. Anything, including a craft, snack or music, can be going on during

his session.

I am going to be requesting more speech and I also want him to be pulled out

for his individual speech. I think he should be in an environment with as

little distractions as possible.

I have lots of information regarding frequency of speech sessonsbut does anyone

have an literature/information on children

receiving speech in an environment free of distractions? I would really like

something to back up my request at the meeting.

Jeanette

mom to:

Becky 7

3 (apraxia)

Meg and Mandy 22 months (both speech delayed)

[Guest guest]

Hi Linds! Geoff here.

You wrote:

> How does one find Rheumax and does it work?

RheuMax is available at http://www.healingyou.org/. It seems to work for

about 80% of the people who try it. If you have never tried it, limit your

purchase to one bottle; if it's going to work for you one bottle is enough

to know.

Geoff

soli Deo gloria

www.HealingYou.org - Your nonprofit source for remedies and aids in fighting

these diseases, information on weaning from drugs, and nutritional kits for

repairing damage; 100% volunteer staffed.