Re: How to train down anxiety

[Guest guest]

I treated my anxiety with T3, T4 alpha temporal and p4 alpha up and beta down. I would check for issues there. Connie How to train down anxiety

Listmates,I know there is no "magic bullet" and I know the "answer" is to do an assessment for each person, BUT I am still wondering: if you had to make an educated guess as to how to train down anxiety -- that would be the neurofeedbackesque equivalent of beta blockers or perhaps benzodiapines -- what would you come up with? I am trying to get at that very basic, core feeling of DREAD that constitutes the physical sensation of anxiety. Really, I guess I'm talking about Fear, but a more chronic, nagging feeling. Would you want to target the amygdala specifically? And if so, how would you go about doing that? Any thoughts, ramblings, debates, etc. welcome. Thank you.Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

I now realize I don't know what you mean by " T3 T4 alpha temporal " -- you mean train alpha up at the " hot temporals " ?LizOn Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Connie Welsh <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

I treated my anxiety with T3, T4 alpha temporal and p4 alpha up and beta down.  I would check for issues there.  Connie

How to train down anxiety

 

Listmates,I know there is no " magic bullet " and I know the " answer " is to do an assessment for each person, BUT I am still wondering: if you had to make an educated guess as to how to train down anxiety --  that would be the neurofeedbackesque equivalent of beta blockers or perhaps benzodiapines -- what would you come up with? I am trying to get at that very basic, core feeling of DREAD that constitutes the physical sensation of anxiety. Really, I guess I'm talking about Fear, but a more chronic, nagging feeling. Would you want to target the amygdala specifically? And if so, how would you go about doing that? Any thoughts, ramblings, debates, etc. welcome. Thank you.

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

But you know, I'm really asking about something else. I want to know more about the neurophysiology of anxiety and what does a beta blocker actually DO (that is, it blocks the beta-adrenergic system, I know, but is there a way that " we " in NF can mimic that response with our training? I believe that in peripheral BF there would be an emphasis on heart rate training, respiration slowing down, the whole " Yoga " thing - but I'm asking if there isn't a more " neurological " approach?)

What is , for example, the NF equivalent of Transcendental Meditation?LizOn Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

I now realize I don't know what you mean by " T3 T4 alpha temporal " -- you mean train alpha up at the " hot temporals " ?

LizOn Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Connie Welsh <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

I treated my anxiety with T3, T4 alpha temporal and p4 alpha up and beta down.  I would check for issues there.  Connie

How to train down anxiety

 

Listmates,I know there is no " magic bullet " and I know the " answer " is to do an assessment for each person, BUT I am still wondering: if you had to make an educated guess as to how to train down anxiety --  that would be the neurofeedbackesque equivalent of beta blockers or perhaps benzodiapines -- what would you come up with? I am trying to get at that very basic, core feeling of DREAD that constitutes the physical sensation of anxiety. Really, I guess I'm talking about Fear, but a more chronic, nagging feeling. Would you want to target the amygdala specifically? And if so, how would you go about doing that? Any thoughts, ramblings, debates, etc. welcome. Thank you.

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Yes there is.  But unlike physicians who try beta blockers, try serotonin reuptake inhibitors or whatever, we have another option--the dreaded assessment.You could try training down beta and high beta in the temporal lobes (if you know it was high there), which would have an effect on the amygdala--ideally combining with HEG.

You could try training down beta (and/or high beta on the right hemisphere or perhaps the right-rear quadrant if you knew it was high there.You could try training down frontal alpha, if you knew that was high, with eyes closed or eyes open, depending on which way it was high, if you knew.

You could train up right-posterior alpha amplitudes (and/or peak frequencies) if you had seen that those were problematic.You could train down high coherences in fast frequencies in the frontal or parietal lobes, depending on where and whether they existed in that client, or train up synchrony in theta and alpha and even delta frequencies (if those were low, especially in the rear of the head).

You could train along the anterior cingulate if you see that was dominated by slow frequencies relative to the two sides, indicating the the emotional regulation area was burnt out.You could try Noel's protocol which he seems to report is more generalized, though it may take many sessions to complete.

You could try 's bipolar protocols, which also appear more general.In general, anxiety is excessive activation in one or more areas of the cortex--lots of fast activity and not enough 6-8 Hz.I guess you could run through these options in around 8-10 sessions and see if anything worked.  Or heck, you could spend 45 minutes gathering an assessment and training according to that.  I don't recall if you've ever done a training plan on a client with me.  I recall we did speak re one of your family members, and I think you've reported from time to time that he was benefiting from whatever training he was doing.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

But you know, I'm really asking about something else. I want to know more about the neurophysiology of anxiety and what does a beta blocker actually DO (that is, it blocks the beta-adrenergic system, I know, but is there a way that " we " in NF can mimic that response with our training? I believe that in peripheral BF there would be an emphasis on heart rate training, respiration slowing down, the whole " Yoga " thing - but I'm asking if there isn't a more " neurological " approach?)

What is , for example, the NF equivalent of Transcendental Meditation?LizOn Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

I now realize I don't know what you mean by " T3 T4 alpha temporal " -- you mean train alpha up at the " hot temporals " ?

LizOn Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Connie Welsh <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

I treated my anxiety with T3, T4 alpha temporal and p4 alpha up and beta down.  I would check for issues there.  Connie

How to train down anxiety

 

Listmates,I know there is no " magic bullet " and I know the " answer " is to do an assessment for each person, BUT I am still wondering: if you had to make an educated guess as to how to train down anxiety --  that would be the neurofeedbackesque equivalent of beta blockers or perhaps benzodiapines -- what would you come up with? I am trying to get at that very basic, core feeling of DREAD that constitutes the physical sensation of anxiety. Really, I guess I'm talking about Fear, but a more chronic, nagging feeling. Would you want to target the amygdala specifically? And if so, how would you go about doing that? Any thoughts, ramblings, debates, etc. welcome. Thank you.

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

There is a nice solution to anxiety on the brain-trainer site: CES.

http://www.brain-trainer.com/cgi-bin/shop.pl?shop=get_item & item_id=84

This kind of device is cleared by the FDA as safe and effective for anxiety,

depression and insomnia. In my practice, I find it works well with little ear

clips.

This is Cranial electrotherapy stimulation, CES. It involves the application of

mild bursts of electrical current to the head via electrodes. Well over 100

studies have shown CES to be helpful for insomnia, depression and anxiety.

The HealthPax unit uses subliminal energy pulses at 100 Hz. The instructions are

to turn the power just below the level of awareness. You can adjust the signal

from 0-1.5 microamps. Normally you would use the HealthPax for 30-60 minutes a

day for a month, and then several times a week thereafter.

Check out www.Alpha-stim.com because they have a better web site. But come back

to brain-trainer.com to purchase one for a fraction of the price.

Ames

AlertFocus.com

> >

> >>

> >>

> >> I treated my anxiety with T3, T4 alpha temporal and p4 alpha up and beta

> >> down. I would check for issues there. Connie

> >>

> >> How to train down anxiety

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Listmates,

> >>

> >> I know there is no " magic bullet " and I know the " answer " is to do an

> >> assessment for each person, BUT I am still wondering: if you had to make an

> >> educated guess as to how to train down anxiety -- that would be the

> >> neurofeedbackesque equivalent of beta blockers or perhaps benzodiapines --

> >> what would you come up with? I am trying to get at that very basic, core

> >> feeling of DREAD that constitutes the physical sensation of anxiety.

Really,

> >> I guess I'm talking about Fear, but a more chronic, nagging feeling. Would

> >> you want to target the amygdala specifically? And if so, how would you go

> >> about doing that? Any thoughts, ramblings, debates, etc. welcome. Thank

you.

> >>

> >> Liz

> >>

> >> --

> >> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> >> New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Margoshes, Ph.D.

> > New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >

> >

>

>

> --

> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> New York State Licensed Psychologist

>

[Guest guest]

Pete, thanks.I've had assessments done and reports done on me and my husband and son and I'm doing training now. I'm just thinking about this in another way - about anxiety in general, the theory of anxiety and if there are specific correlates with NF/brainwaves.  Like the way slower, deeper breathing calms down the sympathetic system. Or like Valium (or heroin) goes " down, Boy, " and it just Happens. Or cocaine goes " Up up up! " Etc.

Thanks.LizOn Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 2:12 AM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Yes there is.  But unlike physicians who try beta blockers, try serotonin reuptake inhibitors or whatever, we have another option--the dreaded assessment.You could try training down beta and high beta in the temporal lobes (if you know it was high there), which would have an effect on the amygdala--ideally combining with HEG.

You could try training down beta (and/or high beta on the right hemisphere or perhaps the right-rear quadrant if you knew it was high there.You could try training down frontal alpha, if you knew that was high, with eyes closed or eyes open, depending on which way it was high, if you knew.

You could train up right-posterior alpha amplitudes (and/or peak frequencies) if you had seen that those were problematic.You could train down high coherences in fast frequencies in the frontal or parietal lobes, depending on where and whether they existed in that client, or train up synchrony in theta and alpha and even delta frequencies (if those were low, especially in the rear of the head).

You could train along the anterior cingulate if you see that was dominated by slow frequencies relative to the two sides, indicating the the emotional regulation area was burnt out.You could try Noel's protocol which he seems to report is more generalized, though it may take many sessions to complete.

You could try 's bipolar protocols, which also appear more general.In general, anxiety is excessive activation in one or more areas of the cortex--lots of fast activity and not enough 6-8 Hz.

I guess you could run through these options in around 8-10 sessions and see if anything worked.  Or heck, you could spend 45 minutes gathering an assessment and training according to that.  I don't recall if you've ever done a training plan on a client with me.  I recall we did speak re one of your family members, and I think you've reported from time to time that he was benefiting from whatever training he was doing.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

But you know, I'm really asking about something else. I want to know more about the neurophysiology of anxiety and what does a beta blocker actually DO (that is, it blocks the beta-adrenergic system, I know, but is there a way that " we " in NF can mimic that response with our training? I believe that in peripheral BF there would be an emphasis on heart rate training, respiration slowing down, the whole " Yoga " thing - but I'm asking if there isn't a more " neurological " approach?)

What is , for example, the NF equivalent of Transcendental Meditation?LizOn Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

I now realize I don't know what you mean by " T3 T4 alpha temporal " -- you mean train alpha up at the " hot temporals " ?

LizOn Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Connie Welsh <conniewelsh@...> wrote:

 

I treated my anxiety with T3, T4 alpha temporal and p4 alpha up and beta down.  I would check for issues there.  Connie

How to train down anxiety

 

Listmates,I know there is no " magic bullet " and I know the " answer " is to do an assessment for each person, BUT I am still wondering: if you had to make an educated guess as to how to train down anxiety --  that would be the neurofeedbackesque equivalent of beta blockers or perhaps benzodiapines -- what would you come up with? I am trying to get at that very basic, core feeling of DREAD that constitutes the physical sensation of anxiety. Really, I guess I'm talking about Fear, but a more chronic, nagging feeling. Would you want to target the amygdala specifically? And if so, how would you go about doing that? Any thoughts, ramblings, debates, etc. welcome. Thank you.

Liz-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Uwe, and everyone, for your responses.LizOn Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:03 PM, <uwegerlach@...> wrote:

 

Liz,

addendum:

your question comparing " uppers " and " downers " in pharmacy with NF analogons is general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and fundamental answer. I suppose you and most on the list already know the answer:

1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields " upper " phenomena like amphetamins

2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of the scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium family

Certainly NF is much " softer " than pharmacy; it`s only training.

The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of your client? Often you don`t.

If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than calming and vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous nerve system.

Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the individual case.

Uwe

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

I attach two files which shows a person with anxiety and then the same person

with much reduced

anxiety. Something you can see is with anxiety one can see an EEG pattern which

is similar to what

I call a " pyramid " shape, whereas without anxiety one has the " tube " shape. I

can see this in all people

before and after NF.

I hope this may help you.

All the best,

-------

Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

________________________________

De: em nome de Margoshes

Enviada: dom 2/20/2011 22:20

Para:

Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety

Thank you, Uwe, and everyone, for your responses.

Liz

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:03 PM, <uwegerlach@...> wrote:

Liz,

addendum:

your question comparing " uppers " and " downers " in pharmacy with NF analogons is

general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and fundamental answer.

I suppose you and most on the list already know the answer:

1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields " upper " phenomena like

amphetamins

2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of the

scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium family

Certainly NF is much " softer " than pharmacy; it`s only training.

The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of your

client? Often you don`t.

If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than calming and

vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous nerve system.

Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the

assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the

individual case.

Uwe

--

Margoshes, Ph.D.

New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

,What are the active/reference electrodes for these recordings?  Was there a task?  Feedback? Eyes closed or open?What you seem to be saying is that lower amplitudes, less variability and a flatter activation curve are more healthy than a slow-dominant more variable pattern.  With eyes open, I think most trainers would agree with that.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 9:57 AM, <jorge.alvoeiro@...> wrote:

 

Hi Liz,

I attach two files which shows a person with anxiety and then the same person with much reduced

anxiety. Something you can see is with anxiety one can see an EEG pattern which is similar to what

I call a " pyramid " shape, whereas without anxiety one has the " tube " shape. I can see this in all people

before and after NF.

I hope this may help you.

All the best,

-------

Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

________________________________

De: em nome de Margoshes

Enviada: dom 2/20/2011 22:20

Para:

Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety

Thank you, Uwe, and everyone, for your responses.

Liz

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:03 PM, <uwegerlach@...> wrote:

Liz,

addendum:

your question comparing " uppers " and " downers " in pharmacy with NF analogons is general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and fundamental answer. I suppose you and most on the list already know the answer:

1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields " upper " phenomena like amphetamins

2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of the scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium family

Certainly NF is much " softer " than pharmacy; it`s only training.

The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of your client? Often you don`t.

If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than calming and vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous nerve system.

Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the individual case.

Uwe

--

Margoshes, Ph.D.

New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Something to correct from what I said below. The GSR/ECG. The GSR goes down

first and as the attention

increases it goes up. The ECG can go down and stays down or goes, slowly/very

fast up if one needs to do

some movements or some other high behaviour reaction. There is much more on this

one (as one uses this

relation on meditation and other relaxation procedures (as probably Liz knows) )

but I stay for this now.

All the best,

-------

Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Rua 15 de Marco,15A

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

________________________________

De: em nome de jorge.alvoeiro@...

Enviada: seg 2/21/2011 13:27

Para:

Assunto: RE: How to train down anxiety

Hi Pete,

From you series of questions it looks as though you would like further info- :-)

Yes, it is major change and the number of NF sessions are small.

Alright, I do the bipolar system (something I have been working on for quite

some time) and I have already explained last year how the procedure is done.

I do first the front, then the parietal and then the temporal.

The task can be divied into two phases: the first one corrects the side which is

low

in relation to the other, then one does both sides at the same time.

The feedback is the normal (boring) dings, dongs, and mazes. I am with the

client and

orient/ let know that s/his attention is going down.

All training is done with eyes closed even when doing Alpha. Most of them

increase their

alpha power even with eyes open. This is something I've found out and I have

lots of

arguments with some colleagues about this because they keep saying that it

cannot happen

with eyes open. Well that is what they say, I just follow the data.

In relation to your second comment, you have just put the finger on it. When one

get a " tube " like

shape, what I have found, is that people may go down to theta but they go there

for very

just a couple of seconds and then their EEG goes back to beta. In another words,

they just stop

doing rumination/internal discourse and start looking to the outside. In

psychophysiological terms

this makes a lot of sense as one gets outside info the GSR/ECG goes down and the

EMG

goes " flat " . That is the person becomes more relaxed and so the EEG (brain

activity) responds

to that behaviour by less theta and more beta but on both sides of the brain

(and not just one side).

Bye for now,

-------

Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

________________________________

De: em nome de pvdtlc

Enviada: seg 2/21/2011 13:02

Para:

Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety

,

What are the active/reference electrodes for these recordings? Was there a

task? Feedback? Eyes closed or open?

What you seem to be saying is that lower amplitudes, less variability and a

flatter activation curve are more healthy than a slow-dominant more variable

pattern. With eyes open, I think most trainers would agree with that.

Pete

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com <http://www.brain-trainer.com/>

USA 305 433 3160

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 9:57 AM, <jorge.alvoeiro@...> wrote:

Hi Liz,

I attach two files which shows a person with anxiety and then the same person

with much reduced

anxiety. Something you can see is with anxiety one can see an EEG pattern which

is similar to what

I call a " pyramid " shape, whereas without anxiety one has the " tube " shape. I

can see this in all people

before and after NF.

I hope this may help you.

All the best,

-------

Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@... <mailto:jorge.alvoeiro%40vodafone.pt>

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

________________________________

De: <mailto:%40> em

nome de Margoshes

Enviada: dom 2/20/2011 22:20

Para: <mailto:%40>

Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety

Thank you, Uwe, and everyone, for your responses.

Liz

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:03 PM, <uwegerlach@...

<mailto:uwegerlach%40aol.com> > wrote:

Liz,

addendum:

your question comparing " uppers " and " downers " in pharmacy with NF analogons is

general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and fundamental answer.

I suppose you and most on the list already know the answer:

1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields " upper " phenomena like

amphetamins

2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of the

scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium family

Certainly NF is much " softer " than pharmacy; it`s only training.

The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of your

client? Often you don`t.

If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than calming and

vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous nerve system.

Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the

assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the

individual case.

Uwe

--

Margoshes, Ph.D.

New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

do you offer training for your methods?BruceSent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerryFrom: <jorge.alvoeiro@...>Sender: Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 13:37:39 -0000< >Reply Subject: RE: How to train down anxiety Something to correct from what I said below. The GSR/ECG. The GSR goes down first and as the attention increases it goes up. The ECG can go down and stays down or goes, slowly/very fast up if one needs to dosome movements or some other high behaviour reaction. There is much more on this one (as one uses thisrelation on meditation and other relaxation procedures (as probably Liz knows) ) but I stay for this now.All the best,-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Rua 15 de Marco,15A2000-119 Santarem, PortugalE-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@... http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/________________________________De: em nome de jorge.alvoeiro@...Enviada: seg 2/21/2011 13:27Para: Assunto: RE: How to train down anxietyHi Pete,From you series of questions it looks as though you would like further info- :-)Yes, it is major change and the number of NF sessions are small.Alright, I do the bipolar system (something I have been working on for quitesome time) and I have already explained last year how the procedure is done.I do first the front, then the parietal and then the temporal.The task can be divied into two phases: the first one corrects the side which is lowin relation to the other, then one does both sides at the same time.The feedback is the normal (boring) dings, dongs, and mazes. I am with the client andorient/ let know that s/his attention is going down.All training is done with eyes closed even when doing Alpha. Most of them increase theiralpha power even with eyes open. This is something I've found out and I have lots of arguments with some colleagues about this because they keep saying that it cannot happenwith eyes open. Well that is what they say, I just follow the data.In relation to your second comment, you have just put the finger on it. When one get a " tube " likeshape, what I have found, is that people may go down to theta but they go there for veryjust a couple of seconds and then their EEG goes back to beta. In another words, they just stopdoing rumination/internal discourse and start looking to the outside. In psychophysiological termsthis makes a lot of sense as one gets outside info the GSR/ECG goes down and the EMG goes " flat " . That is the person becomes more relaxed and so the EEG (brain activity) respondsto that behaviour by less theta and more beta but on both sides of the brain (and not just one side).Bye for now,-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)2000-119 Santarem, PortugalE-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@... http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/________________________________De: em nome de pvdtlcEnviada: seg 2/21/2011 13:02Para: Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety,What are the active/reference electrodes for these recordings? Was there a task? Feedback? Eyes closed or open?What you seem to be saying is that lower amplitudes, less variability and a flatter activation curve are more healthy than a slow-dominant more variable pattern. With eyes open, I think most trainers would agree with that.Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com <http://www.brain-trainer.com/> USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 9:57 AM, <jorge.alvoeiro@...> wrote:Hi Liz,I attach two files which shows a person with anxiety and then the same person with much reducedanxiety. Something you can see is with anxiety one can see an EEG pattern which is similar to whatI call a " pyramid " shape, whereas without anxiety one has the " tube " shape. I can see this in all peoplebefore and after NF.I hope this may help you.All the best,-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)2000-119 Santarem, PortugalE-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@... <mailto:jorge.alvoeiro%40vodafone.pt> http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/________________________________De: <mailto:%40> em nome de MargoshesEnviada: dom 2/20/2011 22:20Para: <mailto:%40> Assunto: Re: How to train down anxietyThank you, Uwe, and everyone, for your responses.LizOn Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:03 PM, <uwegerlach@... <mailto:uwegerlach%40aol.com> > wrote:Liz,addendum:your question comparing " uppers " and " downers " in pharmacy with NF analogons is general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and fundamental answer. I suppose you and most on the list already know the answer:1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields " upper " phenomena like amphetamins2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of the scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium familyCertainly NF is much " softer " than pharmacy; it`s only training.The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of your client? Often you don`t.If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than calming and vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous nerve system.Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the individual case.Uwe-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

, with pROSHI2++, one doesn't have to be concerned, with

" training down " anxiety.

pROSHI/

/ChuckD....

>

>

>

>

> Liz,

> addendum:

> your question comparing " uppers " and " downers " in pharmacy with NF analogons

is general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and fundamental

answer. I suppose you and most on the list already know the answer:

> 1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields " upper " phenomena like

amphetamins

> 2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of the

scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium family

> Certainly NF is much " softer " than pharmacy; it`s only training.

> The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of your

client? Often you don`t.

> If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than calming and

vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous nerve system.

> Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the

assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the

individual case.

> Uwe

>

>

>

> --

> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> New York State Licensed Psychologist

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ChuckD

Thanks for your suggestion but after reading the article about pROSHI on:

http://home.comcast.net/~truthsucks/more_proshi.html

I would pass on it.

Thanks,

-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

De: ChuckD....Enviada: seg 2/21/2011 19:55Para: Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety

, with pROSHI2++, one doesn't have to be concerned, with

"training down" anxiety.

pROSHI/

/ChuckD....

[Guest guest]

Hi Bruce,

To answer to your question below, no, not in the USA.

By for now,

-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

De: MindFitness@...Enviada: seg 2/21/2011 14:29Para: Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety

do you offer training for your methods?Bruce Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

From: <jorge.alvoeiro@...>

Sender:

Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 13:37:39 -0000

< >

Reply

Subject: RE: How to train down anxiety

Something to correct from what I said below. The GSR/ECG. The GSR goes down first and as the attention increases it goes up. The ECG can go down and stays down or goes, slowly/very fast up if one needs to dosome movements or some other high behaviour reaction. There is much more on this one (as one uses thisrelation on meditation and other relaxation procedures (as probably Liz knows) ) but I stay for this now.All the best,-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Rua 15 de Marco,15A2000-119 Santarem, PortugalE-mail: mailto:jorge.alvoeiro%40vodafone.pt http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/________________________________De: mailto:%40 em nome de mailto:jorge.alvoeiro%40vodafone.ptEnviada: seg 2/21/2011 13:27Para: mailto:%40Assunto: RE: How to train down anxietyHi Pete,From you series of questions it looks as though you would like further info- :-)Yes, it is major change and the number of NF sessions are small.Alright, I do the bipolar system (something I have been working on for quitesome time) and I have already explained last year how the procedure is done.I do first the front, then the parietal and then the temporal.The task can be divied into two phases: the first one corrects the side which is lowin relation to the other, then one does both sides at the same time.The feedback is the normal (boring) dings, dongs, and mazes. I am with the client andorient/ let know that s/his attention is going down.All training is done with eyes closed even when doing Alpha. Most of them increase theiralpha power even with eyes open. This is something I've found out and I have lots of arguments with some colleagues about this because they keep saying that it cannot happenwith eyes open. Well that is what they say, I just follow the data.In relation to your second comment, you have just put the finger on it. When one get a "tube" likeshape, what I have found, is that people may go down to theta but they go there for veryjust a couple of seconds and then their EEG goes back to beta. In another words, they just stopdoing rumination/internal discourse and start looking to the outside. In psychophysiological termsthis makes a lot of sense as one gets outside info the GSR/ECG goes down and the EMG goes "flat". That is the person becomes more relaxed and so the EEG (brain activity) respondsto that behaviour by less theta and more beta but on both sides of the brain (and not just one side).Bye for now,-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)2000-119 Santarem, PortugalE-mail: mailto:jorge.alvoeiro%40vodafone.pt http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/________________________________De: mailto:%40 em nome de pvdtlcEnviada: seg 2/21/2011 13:02Para: mailto:%40Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety,What are the active/reference electrodes for these recordings? Was there a task? Feedback? Eyes closed or open?What you seem to be saying is that lower amplitudes, less variability and a flatter activation curve are more healthy than a slow-dominant more variable pattern. With eyes open, I think most trainers would agree with that.Pete-- Van Deusenmailto:pvdtlc%40gmail.comhttp://www.brain-trainer.com/ <http://www.brain-trainer.com/> USA 305 433 3160BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 9:57 AM, <mailto:jorge.alvoeiro%40vodafone.pt> wrote:Hi Liz,I attach two files which shows a person with anxiety and then the same person with much reducedanxiety. Something you can see is with anxiety one can see an EEG pattern which is similar to whatI call a "pyramid" shape, whereas without anxiety one has the "tube" shape. I can see this in all peoplebefore and after NF.I hope this may help you.All the best,-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)2000-119 Santarem, PortugalE-mail: mailto:jorge.alvoeiro%40vodafone.pt <mailto:jorge.alvoeiro%40vodafone.pt> http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/________________________________De: mailto:%40 <mailto:%40> em nome de MargoshesEnviada: dom 2/20/2011 22:20Para: mailto:%40 <mailto:%40> Assunto: Re: How to train down anxietyThank you, Uwe, and everyone, for your responses.LizOn Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:03 PM, <mailto:uwegerlach%40aol.com <mailto:uwegerlach%40aol.com> > wrote:Liz,addendum:your question comparing "uppers" and "downers" in pharmacy with NF analogons is general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and fundamental answer. I suppose you and most on the list already know the answer:1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields "upper" phenomena like amphetamins2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of the scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium familyCertainly NF is much "softer" than pharmacy; it`s only training.The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of your client? Often you don`t.If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than calming and vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous nerve system.Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the individual case.Uwe-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

ChuckD,can you please explain the pROSHI mechanism(s) in terms of nervous system (sympathetic and parasympathetic) and neurotransmitter activity as per my original inquiry? thanksLiz

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 2:55 PM, ChuckD.... <roshicorp@...> wrote:

 

, with pROSHI2++, one doesn't have to be concerned, with

" training down " anxiety.

pROSHI/

/ChuckD....

>

>

>

>

> Liz,

> addendum:

> your question comparing " uppers " and " downers " in pharmacy with NF analogons is general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and fundamental answer. I suppose you and most on the list already know the answer:

> 1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields " upper " phenomena like amphetamins

> 2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of the scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium family

> Certainly NF is much " softer " than pharmacy; it`s only training.

> The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of your client? Often you don`t.

> If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than calming and vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous nerve system.

> Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the individual case.

> Uwe

>

>

>

> --

> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> New York State Licensed Psychologist

>

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

OOOPS!!!

Sorry. In a previous e-mail to Pete I said:

> All training is done with eyes closed even when doing Alpha.

Sorry, sorry, but it should read:

> All training is done with eyes OPEN even when doing Alpha.

If you read the rest it all makes sense. Sorry for the mistake.

Bye for now,

-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz,

In a previous e-mail (the one where I said that thing with eyes close and should have been with eyes open)

it was pointed out the importance of rumination/internal dialogue during anxiety.

You may like to have a look at this summary which has just come out in Behavior Research & Therapy:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21238951

All the best,

-------Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

[Guest guest]

Yes, I can, Liz, but the protocol is a trade secret.

As the brain locks itself onto the pROSHI's complex serial

data stream, it has to quiet itself and go into its 'listening'

mode, in order to do the task.

Works 'every' time. Anxiety reduction ie fear of the future, is

usually the brain's first order business.

/ChuckD....

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Liz,

> > > addendum:

> > > your question comparing " uppers " and " downers " in pharmacy with NF

> > analogons is general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and

> > fundamental answer. I suppose you and most on the list already know the

> > answer:

> > > 1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields " upper " phenomena

> > like amphetamins

> > > 2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of

> > the scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium family

> > > Certainly NF is much " softer " than pharmacy; it`s only training.

> > > The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of

> > your client? Often you don`t.

> > > If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than calming

> > and vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous nerve

> > system.

> > > Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the

> > assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the

> > individual case.

> > > Uwe

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > --

> > > Margoshes, Ph.D.

> > > New York State Licensed Psychologist

> > >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> --

> Margoshes, Ph.D.

> New York State Licensed Psychologist

>

[Guest guest]

In terms of neurotransmitters, Liz, if one were to do a pre-post

saliva test, one will find that a " copius " amount of melatonin

will have been produced.

/ChuckD....

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Liz,

> > > > addendum:

> > > > your question comparing " uppers " and " downers " in pharmacy with NF

> > > analogons is general and fundamental, that`s why it earns an specific and

> > > fundamental answer. I suppose you and most on the list already know the

> > > answer:

> > > > 1 - if you train beta on the forehead it mostly yields " upper " phenomena

> > > like amphetamins

> > > > 2 - if you train smr midway or/and alpha and alpha/theta in the back of

> > > the scalp you`ll have effects as with the valium family

> > > > Certainly NF is much " softer " than pharmacy; it`s only training.

> > > > The problem is: do you always know the specific physiological status of

> > > your client? Often you don`t.

> > > > If he/she is in a parasympathetic mode stimulation is better than

calming

> > > and vice versa. Anxiety can be present in both modes of the autonomous

nerve

> > > system.

> > > > Pete`s answer is complex and you have the choice after having done the

> > > assessment. The rules given above are generally valid independent of the

> > > individual case.

> > > > Uwe

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Margoshes, Ph.D.

> > > > New York State Licensed Psychologist

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > --

> > Margoshes, Ph.D.

> > New York State Licensed Psychologist

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You'd be making a biiig mistake, if you believed what you read

there, !

Here, this PIRATE actually displayed what he thought was the

inner secret, of the pROSHI, but didn't see it! Of course, I

could ;^) I invented the damned thing.

The pROSHI has NEVER failed to quiet down even an noisiest of

ASD brains, from all reports.

If it fails, ship it back.

Nobody ever has,

/ChuckD....

>

> Hi ChuckD

>

> Thanks for your suggestion but after reading the article about pROSHI on:

>

> http://home.comcast.net/~truthsucks/more_proshi.html

>

> I would pass on it.

> Thanks,

>

>

> -------

> Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

> 2000-119 Santarem,

> Portugal

> E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

> http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

>

>

>

>

> De: ChuckD....

> Enviada: seg 2/21/2011 19:55

> Para:

> Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety

>

>

> , with pROSHI2++, one doesn't have to be concerned, with

> " training down " anxiety.

>

> pROSHI/

>

> /ChuckD....

>

[Guest guest]

There is one way to debunk the debunkers --- Transparency. Rather than say "I can't tell you -- it's a secret," make it public and patent it. This is how science functions. Otherwise, just say it's a Black Box of Faith and leave it at that.Liz Margoshes, Ph.D.NY State Licensed PsychologistOn Feb 22, 2011, at 9:37 AM, "ChuckD...." <roshicorp@...> wrote:

You'd be making a biiig mistake, if you believed what you read

there, !

Here, this PIRATE actually displayed what he thought was the

inner secret, of the pROSHI, but didn't see it! Of course, I

could ;^) I invented the damned thing.

The pROSHI has NEVER failed to quiet down even an noisiest of

ASD brains, from all reports.

If it fails, ship it back.

Nobody ever has,

/ChuckD....

>

> Hi ChuckD

>

> Thanks for your suggestion but after reading the article about pROSHI on:

>

> http://home.comcast.net/~truthsucks/more_proshi.html

>

> I would pass on it.

> Thanks,

>

>

> -------

> Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

> 2000-119 Santarem,

> Portugal

> E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

> http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

>

>

>

>

> De: ChuckD....

> Enviada: seg 2/21/2011 19:55

> Para:

> Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety

>

>

> , with pROSHI2++, one doesn't have to be concerned, with

> "training down" anxiety.

>

> pROSHI/

>

> /ChuckD....

>

[Guest guest]

---------- Original Message ----------From: "ChuckD...." <roshicorp@...> http://home.comcast.net/~truthsucks/more_proshi.html You'd be making a biiig mistake, if you believed what you read there, ! CHUCK DHOW DO WE KNOW -- YOU APPEAR TO HAVE NOTHING - PSUEDO SCIENCE, YOUR NARROW STATEMENTS-YOU POP IN --NOW AND THEN -- Here, this PIRATE actually displayed what he thought was the inner secret, of the pROSHI, but didn't see it! Of course, Icould ;^) I invented the damned thing?. THING?The pROSHI has NEVER failed to quiet down even an noisiest of ASD brains, from all reports. ????????ONLY YOUR STATEMENTS AND NO BACK UP =PSUEDO SCIENCEIf it fails, ship it back.== THE CUSTOMER, AGAIN IS YOUR GINNY PIGNobody????? ever has,/ChuckD ON THIS LIST PETE GVES FULL EXPLAINATIONS OF ANY QUESTIONS--YOU HAVE ONLY ONE LINERS ??? BUG OFF TRY THE DAVID 36 >> Hi ChuckD> > Thanks for your suggestion but after reading the article about pROSHI on:> > http://home.comcast.net/~truthsucks/more_proshi.html> > I would pass on it.> Thanks,> > > -------> Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)> 2000-119 Santarem, > Portugal> E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@... > http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/> > > > > De: ChuckD....> Enviada: seg 2/21/2011 19:55> Para: > Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety> > > , with pROSHI2++, one doesn't have to be concerned, with> "training down" anxiety.> > pROSHI/> > /ChuckD....>

____________________________________________________________$65/Hr Job - 25 OpeningsPart-Time job ($20-$65/hr). Requirements: Home Internet AccessChannel11NewsReport.com

[Guest guest]

Some time ago, I sent this attempted pirate, truthsuxx,

some repeatable data, including pre-post z-score measures

and EEG measures, as the pROSHI was powered up.

It showed that no other flicking LED box could ever matchup.

Did he respond? Noooo!

One always must suffer idiots when one reaches the top of his game.

/ChuckD....

> >

> > Hi ChuckD

> >

> > Thanks for your suggestion but after reading the article about pROSHI on:

> >

> > http://home.comcast.net/~truthsucks/more_proshi.html

> >

> > I would pass on it.

> > Thanks,

> >

> >

> > -------

> > Prof.Dr. Alvoeiro,Ph.D.(Hull,UK),C.Psychol.(BPS,UK)

> > 2000-119 Santarem,

> > Portugal

> > E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@

> > http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > De: ChuckD....

> > Enviada: seg 2/21/2011 19:55

> > Para:

> > Assunto: Re: How to train down anxiety

> >

> >

> > , with pROSHI2++, one doesn't have to be concerned, with

> > " training down " anxiety.

> >

> > pROSHI/

> >

> > /ChuckD....

> >

>

>

>

> ____________________________________________________________

> $65/Hr Job - 25 Openings

> Part-Time job ($20-$65/hr). Requirements: Home Internet Access

> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4d63e2cfbbe664f2e8bst01vuc

>

[Guest guest]



Liz, that's not quite fair. Even patented items have trade secrets attached. Large companies have all kinds of secrets (Coca-Cola's recipe, for example).

Please, everyone, let's stop attacking idea and people on this list. I think we tend to forget that most of what we do that we consider mainstream neurofeedback is considered to be lunatic fringe or junk science by others.

Tamera

[Guest guest]

Tamera, The purpose of this group is stated as;

" Practical information and discussion on basic and advanced topics of brain

assessment and training using neurofeedback, biofeedback and related

technologies. "

I see Liz's questions as an attempt to get practical information that is

lacking in a mere endorsement. I don't see anything unfair about that.

BTW, I have a Proshi and it raises fast beta in me. I don't use it with clients

because I don't want to take on the liability risks.

I've been experimenting with the update I recieved from Chuck recently which

goes down to Delta and although it has a softer effect on me, I have yet to see

what it does to my EEG. I'll get back to the group when I do.

Bruce

>

> Liz, that's not quite fair. Even patented items have trade secrets attached.

Large companies have all kinds of secrets (Coca-Cola's recipe, for example).

>

> Please, everyone, let's stop attacking idea and people on this list. I think

we tend to forget that most of what we do that we consider mainstream

neurofeedback is considered to be lunatic fringe or junk science by others.

>

> Tamera

>