Guest guest Posted June 12, 2012 Report Share Posted June 12, 2012 ,Wow! You reminded me of why I do TLC's instead Q's. You have a ton of data points but no real recognizable pattern. Everything is pretty much related to how it compares with the normative database. A quick primer of sleep issues as I understand them.A. Insomnia--sleep onset problems resulting in a person lying in bed unable to fall asleep--or staying up till all hours until he is so exhausted that he falls asleep. This is generally related to one of two patterns: 1. Low levels of SMR (12-15Hz) in the eyes-open EEG at C4 or Cz usually indicate a brain that is unable to move from stage 1 (eyes closed, relaxed, ready to go to sleep) to stage 2 (asleep). Sleep spindles and K-complexes both relate to sustained relaxation of the muscles, which appears to be an important element in this transition. People with low SMR also often show lots of movement in bed when sleeping, restless leg, bruxism, etc. Training to reduce overall activity and increase SMR can be helpful (side note: SMR frequency in children may not be 12-15Hz, based on what the peak alpha frequency in the parietals/occipitals is). 2. a " hot " right-posterior quadrant (P4, T6, O2) with low levels of delta/theta relative to the amount of beta/high-beta. When beta levels are higher on the right than left in homologous sites and/or higher in the back than the front, this often relates to anxiety and (when alpha is low) sleep-onset insomnia. I often train 2 channels at P4/A2 and Oz/A2, inhibiting 19-38 or 23-38 and rewarding 6-13 or 9-13 depending on how much 6-8 Hz activity is attenuated. Movement is not so much an issue here as anxiety. B. Terminal Insomnia--client falls asleep okay but then awakens after several hours and cannot return to sleep. This is usually related to the pattern in A.2. above.C. Multiple awakening during the night--I usually see this with high levels of beta/high-beta with eyes closed. The brain moves down through stages 1 and 2 into stage 3 (delta) then starts up into REM, where it is producing an EEG almost exactly like a full waking EEG. However the excessive beta can pop the brain out of the sleep state. Many clients can return to sleep fairly quickly--or barely recall that they woke up--but they don't get the psychologically restorative benefit of full REM cycles and are often tired. D. Sleeping through the night but never feeling rested. This can also be related to extremely slow brain activity with little capacity to produce beta. The client goes down into stage 3 sleep and is unable to cycle up into REM. Bed-wetting is often related to this pattern. Some clients experience that they wake up multiple times during the night and fall back to sleep quickly (a bit more beta). Speeding up the brain often resolves these issues. Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@... http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Wed, Jun 6, 2012 at 12:45 PM, Malone <mmalone.01@...> wrote: Dear Pete and Listmates, I, too, am working with a client, age 54, with severe sleep issues. She takes Ambien almost nightly, and has for several years. She says that even with the Ambien she usually does not get to sleep until 5am, and then sleeps for just a few hours. Of note in her eyes closed brain maps is global significantly reduced alpha magnitude, along with significantly reduced posterior theta and mildly reduced parietal delta. Beta is mildly reduced at Cz and C4, with normal dominant frequency. Beta is high in magnitude at Pz, with too fast dominant frequency at all parietal sites, and high beta is high at Pz and P4, too fast at Pz. Her eyes open maps are similar in many ways, but also indicate moderate to significantly increased delta midline and frontal, normal beta at C sites but too fast at C3. High beta is significantly high at Pz, and too fast dominant frequency. Given these beta characteristics, SMR training at central sites is clearly not contraindicated. My question is this. I am wondering if the virtual absence of alpha just about anywhere in this brain would change the recommendation to train SMR at C sites to support sleep. I have been training alpha up at P4, eyes closed. It is very difficult for her to get alpha going during training, though she has had some success and even more so usually gets the high beta to come down somewhat. I have also supplemented with HRV training, which she really likes, and 10 hz visual entrainment using a PAL. I am aware that many in the field, and it seems increasingly so, view the dropout of alpha as the sign of a possible metabolic issue, possibly related to adrenals. Though I am not a TLC user, I have long been a follower and big fan of this list, and have learned much from Pete and so many others on the list over the years. For that, and in advance for your thoughts, I thank you. Malone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Hi, I also have a client with a sleep problems, depression and anxiety. Have been successful with depression by training F3 @15-20 hz but during the last 3 sessions she began to fall asleep almost immediately, getting to what looks like REM - the brain looks normal and she reports having images after she wakes up - something she normally cannot attain. I am not clear on how to proceed. Do I let her sleep through the entire session? Any suggestions.? Thank you Irina Kerdman > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Dear Pete and listmates, > > > > > > I am working with a 31 year old woman who began to experience severe > > > insomnia about 2 years ago. She takes lunesta PLUS magnesium in order to > > > get to sleep. She describes getting to that twilight state (7hz) and then > > > stays stuck there the entire night unless she takes the lunesta --which > > > alone does not work. She alternates the lunesta and magnesium and melatonin > > > with just magnesium and melatonin. She had hot temporals so I trained that > > > (5x)-- no improvement, I did an alpha theta with her and she said that > > > moved her to the state that she stays in all night -- and she had lots and > > > lots and lots of crossover. > > > > > > Pete-- what would you recommend. I think I'd like to start her on alpha > > > theta and then change the " cross over " to the hertz that would follow the > > > twilight state. Do you know what this would be? What would you recommend? > > > > > > Many thanks in advance for your response(s) > > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Sleep deprived brains actually try to make up their lost REM cycles as quickly as possible. Sounds like that's what's happening. Let the client " sleep " and keep the training going. Eventually she'll be able to train awake. Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc. On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:29 AM, IDK <irinadkphd@...> wrote: Hi, I also have a client with a sleep problems, depression and anxiety. Have been successful with depression by training F3 @15-20 hz but during the last 3 sessions she began to fall asleep almost immediately, getting to what looks like REM - the brain looks normal and she reports having images after she wakes up - something she normally cannot attain. I am not clear on how to proceed. Do I let her sleep through the entire session? Any suggestions.? Thank you Irina Kerdman > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Dear Pete and listmates, > > > > > > I am working with a 31 year old woman who began to experience severe > > > insomnia about 2 years ago. She takes lunesta PLUS magnesium in order to > > > get to sleep. She describes getting to that twilight state (7hz) and then > > > stays stuck there the entire night unless she takes the lunesta --which > > > alone does not work. She alternates the lunesta and magnesium and melatonin > > > with just magnesium and melatonin. She had hot temporals so I trained that > > > (5x)-- no improvement, I did an alpha theta with her and she said that > > > moved her to the state that she stays in all night -- and she had lots and > > > lots and lots of crossover. > > > > > > Pete-- what would you recommend. I think I'd like to start her on alpha > > > theta and then change the " cross over " to the hertz that would follow the > > > twilight state. Do you know what this would be? What would you recommend? > > > > > > Many thanks in advance for your response(s) > > > > > > Warm regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 Thanks Sharrie I really appreciate your help. Unfortunately I do not have, nor do I have training in the AVE..... Hope you enjoy your week and thank you again for all of your help! -- Warm Regards, Lindsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.