Re: What to do while training???

[Guest guest]

HEG is all about " single-pointed focus " .  What do you " do " when paying intense attention to something?  Nothing.  You don't think, you don't " try " , you don't " judge " how well you are doing or any of that.  You just pay attention.  Of course that's one of the hardest things to do, so it's common for trainees to immediately start thinking about what they are doing, trying to do it better or wanting to judge how well they are doing.  All of those are internal or future oriented tasks, so they are the opposite of being focused on an external object in this moment.

Just focus.  If you focus on the graph, notice when it is going up and keep doing that.  Notice when it is going down and shift back to what you were doing when it was going up.Recognize that it is a process of building stamina--changing the brain's physical distribution system for oxygenated blood--so it will require time.  Don't stay on it too long--probably 3 minutes per site in the beginning.  Build up slowly, a minute every 2-3 sessions.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Rex <rextutor@...> wrote:

 

Sun 15 Jul 2012, 9:13 am Good Morning All, I am just beginning self-HEG now, and EEG later on.  I am still a little vague about exactly what one " does "   or thinks about while doing HEG. Concentrating on the red line elevating?  That's it???

 I have some experience with HRV BFB, and so when I find my anatomy is hooked up to a computer in some way,  and I am looking at a graph(ic)  on my screen, I automatically begin to do breath-lengthening, and maybe thinking about relaxation, or sometimes about " space " as in Open Focus, and generally encouraging relaxation. 

 Is this helpful to HEG & EEG, unhelpful, or of no consequence one way or the other? Thanks! RexKhon Kaen, Thailandrextutor@...

[Guest guest]

Pete,Similar to your instructions, Neils Birnbaumer in a YouTube video (link blow) entitled Neils Birbaumer Training Brain Responses' seems to be saying the same thing. He adamantly insists that in training to increase or decrease a particular brain activity, you should not tell the client what to do other than to give general instructions such as 'for this task, please make the screen blue, use what ever you like except movement.' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t349Gx21ZRM & feature=relmfu Pete, am I correct in understanding that you and Neils are saying the same thing? Do your comments apply to HEG only or also to other neurofeedback and biofeedback

modalities? What about HRV training where specific instructions are given.My apologies in advance if it is inappropriate to cross-channel to the pirHEG group. I'd like to hear Jeff Carmen and others' responses alsoHugh FordeThis transmission may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, forwarding, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive for the recipient, please call or

email sender and delete all copies of this message. Also, electronic communication is susceptible to data corruption, interception, tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive electronic communications on the basis that we are not liable for any

such corruption, interception, tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof. Thank you. From: pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:08 AM Subject: Re: What to do while training???

HEG is all about "single-pointed focus". What do you "do" when paying intense attention to something? Nothing. You don't think, you don't "try", you don't "judge" how well you are doing or any of that. You just pay attention. Of course that's one of the hardest things to do, so it's common for trainees to immediately start thinking about what they are doing, trying to do it better or wanting to judge how well they are doing. All of those are internal or future oriented tasks, so they are the opposite of being focused on an external object in this moment.

Just focus. If you focus on the graph, notice when it is going up and keep doing that. Notice when it is going down and shift back to what you were doing when it was going up.Recognize that it is a process of building stamina--changing the brain's physical distribution system for oxygenated blood--so it will require time. Don't stay on it too long--probably 3 minutes per site in the beginning. Build up slowly, a minute every 2-3 sessions.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Rex <rextutor@...> wrote:

Sun 15 Jul 2012, 9:13 am Good Morning All, I am just beginning self-HEG now, and EEG later on. I am still a little vague about exactly what one "does" or thinks about while doing HEG. Concentrating on the red line elevating? That's it???

I have some experience with HRV BFB, and so when I find my anatomy is hooked up to a computer in some way, and I am looking at a graph(ic) on my screen, I automatically begin to do breath-lengthening, and maybe thinking about relaxation, or sometimes about "space" as in Open Focus, and generally encouraging relaxation.

Is this helpful to HEG & EEG, unhelpful, or of no consequence one way or the other? Thanks! RexKhon Kaen, Thailandrextutor@...

[Guest guest]

I stress to all clients that we are NOT training the " mind " .  We are training the brain.  When the client's conscious mind intervenes (as is its wont), it muddles the feedback reaching the brain.  So in all training I tell the client, " don't think, don't try, don't judge.  Just pay attention to what is happening (visual or audio feedback).  

When a client " thinks " , he is inside his own head.  Judging and trying are the same.  When you observe and attend without trying, the information goes straight through to the brain, and the brain is able to better connect what it is doing with what is happening.  I don't usually tell the client what I want in terms of feedback, though the design often does.  If I'm using music feedback, I tell the client " every once in a while you'll hear a chime, and know that's really good.  But don't try to make the chime play, because you can't. "  That helps the brain decide which is the more desirable direction for it to move.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Hugh Forde <drforde1@...> wrote:

 

Pete,Similar to your instructions, Neils Birnbaumer in a YouTube video (link blow) entitled Neils Birbaumer Training Brain Responses' seems to be saying the same thing.  He adamantly insists that in training to increase or decrease a particular brain activity,  you should not tell the client what to do other than to give general instructions such as 'for this task, please make the screen blue, use what ever you like except movement.'   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t349Gx21ZRM & feature=relmfu 

Pete, am I correct in understanding that you and Neils are saying the same thing?  Do your comments apply to HEG only or also to other neurofeedback and biofeedback

modalities?  What about HRV training where specific instructions are given.My apologies in advance if it is inappropriate to cross-channel to the pirHEG group.  I'd like to hear Jeff Carmen and others' responses also

Hugh FordeThis transmission may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s).  Any review, use, retention, forwarding, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive for the recipient, please call or

email sender and delete all copies of this message.  Also, electronic communication is susceptible to data corruption, interception, tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses.  We only send and receive electronic communications on the basis that we are not liable for any

such corruption, interception, tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof.  Thank you.

From: pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...>

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:08 AM

Subject: Re: What to do while training???

 

HEG is all about " single-pointed focus " .  What do you " do " when paying intense attention to something?  Nothing.  You don't think, you don't " try " , you don't " judge " how well you are doing or any of that.  You just pay attention.  Of course that's one of the hardest things to do, so it's common for trainees to immediately start thinking about what they are doing, trying to do it better or wanting to judge how well they are doing.  All of those are internal or future oriented tasks, so they are the opposite of being focused on an external object in this moment.

Just focus.  If you focus on the graph, notice when it is going up and keep doing that.  Notice when it is going down and shift back to what you were doing when it was going up.Recognize that it is a process of building stamina--changing the brain's physical distribution system for oxygenated blood--so it will require time.  Don't stay on it too long--probably 3 minutes per site in the beginning.  Build up slowly, a minute every 2-3 sessions.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Rex <rextutor@...> wrote:

 

Sun 15 Jul 2012, 9:13 am Good Morning All, I am just beginning self-HEG now, and EEG later on.  I am still a little vague about exactly what one " does "   or thinks about while doing HEG. Concentrating on the red line elevating?  That's it???

 I have some experience with HRV BFB, and so when I find my anatomy is hooked up to a computer in some way,  and I am looking at a graph(ic)  on my screen, I automatically begin to do breath-lengthening, and maybe thinking about relaxation, or sometimes about " space " as in Open Focus, and generally encouraging relaxation. 

 Is this helpful to HEG & EEG, unhelpful, or of no consequence one way or the other? Thanks! RexKhon Kaen, Thailandrextutor@...

[Guest guest]

Pete, one thing I've never been clear about -- the relationship between tones and *decreasing* amplitudes. In other words, you are rewarding a calming-down of, say, the EEG activity around the " hot " temporals, with an *increase* in noise stimuli: so that " less " is rewarded with " more " . I don't really get why the brain necessarily *wants* more, and is therefore reinforced with those tones, chimes, beats, etc..( But maybe I speak from my home in New York City, where I crave *less* noise!)

I understand that Pavlov's dog responded to the tone when it was paired with the piece of meat, and then alone, because it was then associated with a piece of meat. But I don't see why the brain will repeat its actions when you pair those actions with those noises. What's so great about hearing beeps? What is rewarding about them?

Liz On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 5:03 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

I stress to all clients that we are NOT training the " mind " .  We are training the brain.  When the client's conscious mind intervenes (as is its wont), it muddles the feedback reaching the brain.  So in all training I tell the client, " don't think, don't try, don't judge.  Just pay attention to what is happening (visual or audio feedback).  

When a client " thinks " , he is inside his own head.  Judging and trying are the same.  When you observe and attend without trying, the information goes straight through to the brain, and the brain is able to better connect what it is doing with what is happening.  I don't usually tell the client what I want in terms of feedback, though the design often does.  If I'm using music feedback, I tell the client " every once in a while you'll hear a chime, and know that's really good.  But don't try to make the chime play, because you can't. "  That helps the brain decide which is the more desirable direction for it to move.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Hugh Forde <drforde1@...> wrote:

 

Pete,Similar to your instructions, Neils Birnbaumer in a YouTube video (link blow) entitled Neils Birbaumer Training Brain Responses' seems to be saying the same thing.  He adamantly insists that in training to increase or decrease a particular brain activity,  you should not tell the client what to do other than to give general instructions such as 'for this task, please make the screen blue, use what ever you like except movement.'   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t349Gx21ZRM & feature=relmfu 

Pete, am I correct in understanding that you and Neils are saying the same thing?  Do your comments apply to HEG only or also to other neurofeedback and biofeedback

modalities?  What about HRV training where specific instructions are given.My apologies in advance if it is inappropriate to cross-channel to the pirHEG group.  I'd like to hear Jeff Carmen and others' responses also

Hugh FordeThis transmission may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s).  Any review, use, retention, forwarding, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive for the recipient, please call or

email sender and delete all copies of this message.  Also, electronic communication is susceptible to data corruption, interception, tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses.  We only send and receive electronic communications on the basis that we are not liable for any

such corruption, interception, tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof.  Thank you.

From: pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...>

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:08 AM

Subject: Re: What to do while training???

 

HEG is all about " single-pointed focus " .  What do you " do " when paying intense attention to something?  Nothing.  You don't think, you don't " try " , you don't " judge " how well you are doing or any of that.  You just pay attention.  Of course that's one of the hardest things to do, so it's common for trainees to immediately start thinking about what they are doing, trying to do it better or wanting to judge how well they are doing.  All of those are internal or future oriented tasks, so they are the opposite of being focused on an external object in this moment.

Just focus.  If you focus on the graph, notice when it is going up and keep doing that.  Notice when it is going down and shift back to what you were doing when it was going up.Recognize that it is a process of building stamina--changing the brain's physical distribution system for oxygenated blood--so it will require time.  Don't stay on it too long--probably 3 minutes per site in the beginning.  Build up slowly, a minute every 2-3 sessions.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Rex <rextutor@...> wrote:

 

Sun 15 Jul 2012, 9:13 am Good Morning All, I am just beginning self-HEG now, and EEG later on.  I am still a little vague about exactly what one " does "   or thinks about while doing HEG. Concentrating on the red line elevating?  That's it???

 I have some experience with HRV BFB, and so when I find my anatomy is hooked up to a computer in some way,  and I am looking at a graph(ic)  on my screen, I automatically begin to do breath-lengthening, and maybe thinking about relaxation, or sometimes about " space " as in Open Focus, and generally encouraging relaxation. 

 Is this helpful to HEG & EEG, unhelpful, or of no consequence one way or the other? Thanks! RexKhon Kaen, Thailandrextutor@...

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Liz,you really need to turn off your conscious mind a bit.  The brain looks for relationships between what it is doing and what is coming back in.  Since we are generally trying to move it in a direction of less energy being used, greater efficiency, that should be a direction that brain would like.

As long as the feedback is consistent, and the client stops thinking and judging and trying to figure it out, most brains will move and the client will reflect the change.Pete

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA'>http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete, one thing I've never been clear about -- the relationship between tones and *decreasing* amplitudes. In other words, you are rewarding a calming-down of, say, the EEG activity around the " hot " temporals, with an *increase* in noise stimuli: so that " less " is rewarded with " more " . I don't really get why the brain necessarily *wants* more, and is therefore reinforced with those tones, chimes, beats, etc..( But maybe I speak from my home in New York City, where I crave *less* noise!)

I understand that Pavlov's dog responded to the tone when it was paired with the piece of meat, and then alone, because it was then associated with a piece of meat. But I don't see why the brain will repeat its actions when you pair those actions with those noises. What's so great about hearing beeps? What is rewarding about them?

Liz On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 5:03 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

I stress to all clients that we are NOT training the " mind " .  We are training the brain.  When the client's conscious mind intervenes (as is its wont), it muddles the feedback reaching the brain.  So in all training I tell the client, " don't think, don't try, don't judge.  Just pay attention to what is happening (visual or audio feedback).  

When a client " thinks " , he is inside his own head.  Judging and trying are the same.  When you observe and attend without trying, the information goes straight through to the brain, and the brain is able to better connect what it is doing with what is happening.  I don't usually tell the client what I want in terms of feedback, though the design often does.  If I'm using music feedback, I tell the client " every once in a while you'll hear a chime, and know that's really good.  But don't try to make the chime play, because you can't. "  That helps the brain decide which is the more desirable direction for it to move.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Hugh Forde <drforde1@...> wrote:

 

Pete,Similar to your instructions, Neils Birnbaumer in a YouTube video (link blow) entitled Neils Birbaumer Training Brain Responses' seems to be saying the same thing.  He adamantly insists that in training to increase or decrease a particular brain activity,  you should not tell the client what to do other than to give general instructions such as 'for this task, please make the screen blue, use what ever you like except movement.'   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t349Gx21ZRM & feature=relmfu 

Pete, am I correct in understanding that you and Neils are saying the same thing?  Do your comments apply to HEG only or also to other neurofeedback and biofeedback

modalities?  What about HRV training where specific instructions are given.My apologies in advance if it is inappropriate to cross-channel to the pirHEG group.  I'd like to hear Jeff Carmen and others' responses also

Hugh FordeThis transmission may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s).  Any review, use, retention, forwarding, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive for the recipient, please call or

email sender and delete all copies of this message.  Also, electronic communication is susceptible to data corruption, interception, tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses.  We only send and receive electronic communications on the basis that we are not liable for any

such corruption, interception, tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof.  Thank you.

From: pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...>

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:08 AM

Subject: Re: What to do while training???

 

HEG is all about " single-pointed focus " .  What do you " do " when paying intense attention to something?  Nothing.  You don't think, you don't " try " , you don't " judge " how well you are doing or any of that.  You just pay attention.  Of course that's one of the hardest things to do, so it's common for trainees to immediately start thinking about what they are doing, trying to do it better or wanting to judge how well they are doing.  All of those are internal or future oriented tasks, so they are the opposite of being focused on an external object in this moment.

Just focus.  If you focus on the graph, notice when it is going up and keep doing that.  Notice when it is going down and shift back to what you were doing when it was going up.Recognize that it is a process of building stamina--changing the brain's physical distribution system for oxygenated blood--so it will require time.  Don't stay on it too long--probably 3 minutes per site in the beginning.  Build up slowly, a minute every 2-3 sessions.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Rex <rextutor@...> wrote:

 

Sun 15 Jul 2012, 9:13 am Good Morning All, I am just beginning self-HEG now, and EEG later on.  I am still a little vague about exactly what one " does "   or thinks about while doing HEG. Concentrating on the red line elevating?  That's it???

 I have some experience with HRV BFB, and so when I find my anatomy is hooked up to a computer in some way,  and I am looking at a graph(ic)  on my screen, I automatically begin to do breath-lengthening, and maybe thinking about relaxation, or sometimes about " space " as in Open Focus, and generally encouraging relaxation. 

 Is this helpful to HEG & EEG, unhelpful, or of no consequence one way or the other? Thanks! RexKhon Kaen, Thailandrextutor@...

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I would like to add something to this discussion which is based on work

(including mine) on imagery.

As most of those working in imagery know that when one is doing imagery one is

actually activating

the brain as if it is doing " actually " the thing. This thing can be anything

from a movement to a brain

state.

Besides doing lots of bipolar interventions, I also use imagey in order to

" train " the brain to

repeat what is doing when is " correcting " itself in the NF intervention. For

exemple, one of the

strategies I use is the on/off reward screens. When the screen is on, thus doing

the NF correction,

I try to orient the client to " note " the situation. When the screen is off I ask

the client to image the

screen the way it was when was on.

What tends to happen is the brain to repeat the state it was during the actual

NF correction state.

Using this strategy the whole NF correction is speed up and tends to spend less

time on the

" trial/error " type os sessions and one has more " in the zone " type of sessions.

It is also quite fun to notice the person becoming more motivated saying things

like " wow I just

imagine and it come back! "

I hope this helps.

Bye for now,

-----

Alvoeiro,Ph.D(Hull,UK),C.Psychol/AFBPsS(BPS,UK)

2000-119 Santarem,

Portugal

E-mail: jorge.alvoeiro@...

http://jorge0alvoeiro.no.sapo.pt/

________________________________

De: em nome de pvdtlc

Enviada: ter 17-07-2012 03:29

Para:

Assunto: Re: What to do while training???

Liz,

you really need to turn off your conscious mind a bit. The brain looks for

relationships between what it is doing and what is coming back in. Since we are

generally trying to move it in a direction of less energy being used, greater

efficiency, that should be a direction that brain would like.

As long as the feedback is consistent, and the client stops thinking and judging

and trying to figure it out, most brains will move and the client will reflect

the change.

Pete

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com <http://www.brain-trainer.com/>

USA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...>

wrote:

Pete,

one thing I've never been clear about -- the relationship between tones and

*decreasing* amplitudes. In other words, you are rewarding a calming-down of,

say, the EEG activity around the " hot " temporals, with an *increase* in noise

stimuli: so that " less " is rewarded with " more " . I don't really get why the

brain necessarily *wants* more, and is therefore reinforced with those tones,

chimes, beats, etc..( But maybe I speak from my home in New York City, where I

crave *less* noise!)

I understand that Pavlov's dog responded to the tone when it was paired with

the piece of meat, and then alone, because it was then associated with a piece

of meat. But I don't see why the brain will repeat its actions when you pair

those actions with those noises. What's so great about hearing beeps? What is

rewarding about them?

Liz

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 5:03 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

I stress to all clients that we are NOT training the " mind " . We are training

the brain. When the client's conscious mind intervenes (as is its wont), it

muddles the feedback reaching the brain. So in all training I tell the client,

" don't think, don't try, don't judge. Just pay attention to what is happening

(visual or audio feedback).

When a client " thinks " , he is inside his own head. Judging and trying are the

same. When you observe and attend without trying, the information goes straight

through to the brain, and the brain is able to better connect what it is doing

with what is happening. I don't usually tell the client what I want in terms of

feedback, though the design often does. If I'm using music feedback, I tell the

client " every once in a while you'll hear a chime, and know that's really good.

But don't try to make the chime play, because you can't. " That helps the brain

decide which is the more desirable direction for it to move.

Pete

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com <http://www.brain-trainer.com/>

USA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Hugh Forde <drforde1@...> wrote:

Pete,

Similar to your instructions, Neils Birnbaumer in a YouTube video (link blow)

entitled Neils Birbaumer Training Brain Responses' seems to be saying the same

thing. He adamantly insists that in training to increase or decrease a

particular brain activity, you should not tell the client what to do other than

to give general instructions such as 'for this task, please make the screen

blue, use what ever you like except movement.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t349Gx21ZRM & feature=relmfu

Pete, am I correct in understanding that you and Neils are saying the same

thing? Do your comments apply to HEG only or also to other neurofeedback and

biofeedback modalities? What about HRV training where specific instructions are

given.

My apologies in advance if it is inappropriate to cross-channel to the pirHEG

group. I'd like to hear Jeff Carmen and others' responses also

Hugh Forde

This transmission may contain confidential and privileged material for the

sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, forwarding,

distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the

intended recipient, or authorized to receive for the recipient, please call or

email sender and delete all copies of this message. Also, electronic

communication is susceptible to data corruption, interception, tampering,

unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive electronic

communications on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption,

interception, tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof. Thank

you.

________________________________

From: pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...>

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:08 AM

Subject: Re: What to do while training???

HEG is all about " single-pointed focus " . What do you " do " when paying

intense attention to something? Nothing. You don't think, you don't " try " , you

don't " judge " how well you are doing or any of that. You just pay attention.

Of course that's one of the hardest things to do, so it's common for trainees to

immediately start thinking about what they are doing, trying to do it better or

wanting to judge how well they are doing. All of those are internal or future

oriented tasks, so they are the opposite of being focused on an external object

in this moment.

Just focus. If you focus on the graph, notice when it is going up and keep

doing that. Notice when it is going down and shift back to what you were doing

when it was going up.

Recognize that it is a process of building stamina--changing the brain's

physical distribution system for oxygenated blood--so it will require time.

Don't stay on it too long--probably 3 minutes per site in the beginning. Build

up slowly, a minute every 2-3 sessions.

Pete

--

Van Deusen

pvdtlc@...

http://www.brain-trainer.com <http://www.brain-trainer.com/>

USA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Rex <rextutor@...> wrote:

Sun 15 Jul 2012, 9:13 am

Good Morning All,

I am just beginning self-HEG now, and EEG later on. I am still a little

vague about exactly what one " does " or thinks about while doing HEG.

Concentrating on the red line elevating? That's it???

I have some experience with HRV BFB, and so when I find my anatomy is hooked

up to a computer in some way, and I am looking at a graph(ic) on my screen, I

automatically begin to do breath-lengthening, and maybe thinking about

relaxation, or sometimes about " space " as in Open Focus, and generally

encouraging relaxation.

Is this helpful to HEG & EEG, unhelpful, or of no consequence one way or the

other?

Thanks!

Rex

Khon Kaen, Thailand

rextutor@...

--

Margoshes, Ph.D.

New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

ok Pete, thank you once again for the info!LizOn Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 10:29 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

Liz,you really need to turn off your conscious mind a bit.  The brain looks for relationships between what it is doing and what is coming back in.  Since we are generally trying to move it in a direction of less energy being used, greater efficiency, that should be a direction that brain would like.

As long as the feedback is consistent, and the client stops thinking and judging and trying to figure it out, most brains will move and the client will reflect the change.

Pete

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA'>http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Margoshes <drmargoshes@...> wrote:

 

Pete, one thing I've never been clear about -- the relationship between tones and *decreasing* amplitudes. In other words, you are rewarding a calming-down of, say, the EEG activity around the " hot " temporals, with an *increase* in noise stimuli: so that " less " is rewarded with " more " . I don't really get why the brain necessarily *wants* more, and is therefore reinforced with those tones, chimes, beats, etc..( But maybe I speak from my home in New York City, where I crave *less* noise!)

I understand that Pavlov's dog responded to the tone when it was paired with the piece of meat, and then alone, because it was then associated with a piece of meat. But I don't see why the brain will repeat its actions when you pair those actions with those noises. What's so great about hearing beeps? What is rewarding about them?

Liz On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 5:03 PM, pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...> wrote:

 

I stress to all clients that we are NOT training the " mind " .  We are training the brain.  When the client's conscious mind intervenes (as is its wont), it muddles the feedback reaching the brain.  So in all training I tell the client, " don't think, don't try, don't judge.  Just pay attention to what is happening (visual or audio feedback).  

When a client " thinks " , he is inside his own head.  Judging and trying are the same.  When you observe and attend without trying, the information goes straight through to the brain, and the brain is able to better connect what it is doing with what is happening.  I don't usually tell the client what I want in terms of feedback, though the design often does.  If I'm using music feedback, I tell the client " every once in a while you'll hear a chime, and know that's really good.  But don't try to make the chime play, because you can't. "  That helps the brain decide which is the more desirable direction for it to move.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Hugh Forde <drforde1@...> wrote:

 

Pete,Similar to your instructions, Neils Birnbaumer in a YouTube video (link blow) entitled Neils Birbaumer Training Brain Responses' seems to be saying the same thing.  He adamantly insists that in training to increase or decrease a particular brain activity,  you should not tell the client what to do other than to give general instructions such as 'for this task, please make the screen blue, use what ever you like except movement.'   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t349Gx21ZRM & feature=relmfu 

Pete, am I correct in understanding that you and Neils are saying the same thing?  Do your comments apply to HEG only or also to other neurofeedback and biofeedback

modalities?  What about HRV training where specific instructions are given.My apologies in advance if it is inappropriate to cross-channel to the pirHEG group.  I'd like to hear Jeff Carmen and others' responses also

Hugh FordeThis transmission may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s).  Any review, use, retention, forwarding, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, or authorized to receive for the recipient, please call or

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From: pvdtlc <pvdtlc@...>

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2012 8:08 AM

Subject: Re: What to do while training???

 

HEG is all about " single-pointed focus " .  What do you " do " when paying intense attention to something?  Nothing.  You don't think, you don't " try " , you don't " judge " how well you are doing or any of that.  You just pay attention.  Of course that's one of the hardest things to do, so it's common for trainees to immediately start thinking about what they are doing, trying to do it better or wanting to judge how well they are doing.  All of those are internal or future oriented tasks, so they are the opposite of being focused on an external object in this moment.

Just focus.  If you focus on the graph, notice when it is going up and keep doing that.  Notice when it is going down and shift back to what you were doing when it was going up.Recognize that it is a process of building stamina--changing the brain's physical distribution system for oxygenated blood--so it will require time.  Don't stay on it too long--probably 3 minutes per site in the beginning.  Build up slowly, a minute every 2-3 sessions.

Pete-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.com

USA 678 224 5895BR 47 3346 6235The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Rex <rextutor@...> wrote:

 

Sun 15 Jul 2012, 9:13 am Good Morning All, I am just beginning self-HEG now, and EEG later on.  I am still a little vague about exactly what one " does "   or thinks about while doing HEG. Concentrating on the red line elevating?  That's it???

 I have some experience with HRV BFB, and so when I find my anatomy is hooked up to a computer in some way,  and I am looking at a graph(ic)  on my screen, I automatically begin to do breath-lengthening, and maybe thinking about relaxation, or sometimes about " space " as in Open Focus, and generally encouraging relaxation. 

 Is this helpful to HEG & EEG, unhelpful, or of no consequence one way or the other? Thanks! RexKhon Kaen, Thailandrextutor@...

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

-- Margoshes, Ph.D.New York State Licensed Psychologist

[Guest guest]

pete,

i can understand that it is best not to try, not to think and just observe. but

to be honest, who can do that? most people start thinking, judging after 2

seconds, that is just how we are, if our mind is not trained.

in my experience, i found nfb to be extremely valuable to let people recognise

more healthy states of mind, or brain activity, because it is so accurate in

describing states of mind. if a person shifts through the feedback in a

different brain activity and you point that out to the client in that moment,

the client widens his mode of brain functioning and thus can do better. often

the client does not recognise that different brain activity as valuable in that

moment.

i have a client with much too much alpha eyes open and eyes closed. i let him

consciously pay attention to the surroundings, as you proposed in a workshop

(similar to the naming excercise). that helped him to be more present, to " let

the outside world touch the inside " as he described it. his alpha went down

about 50%. if i would have just suggested, dont try, dont think, he would have

just spaced out, not being able to control his alpha waves.

so i think there are different ways of how to approach the training, and i think

not everybody is able to stay nonbiased in an alert state of mind. as jorge

pointed out there might be techniques to help fasten the process, until the

client is more able to stay in that alert state of mind.

niels birbaumer suggests that the client does whatever he wants to ( except

muscle tension) to shift his brainwaves, so there is " trying " and " thinking "

involved in the process to get positive feedback. it could also be quite

interesting what kind of strategy the client chooses and discuss that.

michael

> >

> > **

> >

> > Sun 15 Jul 2012, 9:13 am

> >

> > Good Morning All,

> >

> > I am just beginning self-HEG now, and EEG later on. I am still a little

> > vague about exactly what one " does " or thinks about while doing

> > HEG. Concentrating on the red line elevating? That's it???

> >

> > I have some experience with HRV BFB, and so when I find my anatomy is

> > hooked up to a computer in some way, and I am looking at a graph(ic) on

> > my screen, I automatically begin to do breath-lengthening, and maybe

> > thinking about relaxation, or sometimes about " space " as in Open Focus, and

> > generally encouraging relaxation.

> >

> > Is this helpful to HEG & EEG, unhelpful, or of no consequence one way or

> > the other?

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > Rex

> > Khon Kaen, Thailand

> > rextutor@...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I love pete's advice about the pay attention to the surroundings as it dove tails very nicely with my interest in learning more abour NF to develop personalized meditation or attentional exercises.

On the hand, NF approaches which are based on bypassing conscious mediation(val brown, sieg othmer) also work well.

Bruce

Re: What to do while training???

pete,i can understand that it is best not to try, not to think and just observe. but to be honest, who can do that? most people start thinking, judging after 2 seconds, that is just how we are, if our mind is not trained. in my experience, i found nfb to be extremely valuable to let people recognise more healthy states of mind, or brain activity, because it is so accurate in describing states of mind. if a person shifts through the feedback in a different brain activity and you point that out to the client in that moment, the client widens his mode of brain functioning and thus can do better. often the client does not recognise that different brain activity as valuable in that moment. i have a client with much too much alpha eyes open and eyes closed. i let him consciously pay attention to the surroundings, as you proposed in a workshop (similar to the naming excercise). that helped him to be more present, to "let the outside world touch the inside" as he described it. his alpha went down about 50%. if i would have just suggested, dont try, dont think, he would have just spaced out, not being able to control his alpha waves. so i think there are different ways of how to approach the training, and i think not everybody is able to stay nonbiased in an alert state of mind. as jorge pointed out there might be techniques to help fasten the process, until the client is more able to stay in that alert state of mind. niels birbaumer suggests that the client does whatever he wants to ( except muscle tension) to shift his brainwaves, so there is " trying" and "thinking" involved in the process to get positive feedback. it could also be quite interesting what kind of strategy the client chooses and discuss that.michael> >> > **> >> > Sun 15 Jul 2012, 9:13 am> >> > Good Morning All,> >> > I am just beginning self-HEG now, and EEG later on. I am still a little> > vague about exactly what one "does" or thinks about while doing> > HEG. Concentrating on the red line elevating? That's it???> >> > I have some experience with HRV BFB, and so when I find my anatomy is> > hooked up to a computer in some way, and I am looking at a graph(ic) on> > my screen, I automatically begin to do breath-lengthening, and maybe> > thinking about relaxation, or sometimes about "space" as in Open Focus, and> > generally encouraging relaxation.> >> > Is this helpful to HEG & EEG, unhelpful, or of no consequence one way or> > the other?> >> > Thanks!> >> > Rex> > Khon Kaen, Thailand> > rextutor@...> >> >> >> >> > > >>

[Guest guest]

Greetings, All -

Enjoying this discussion, and thought I'd add a few cents to it, for what it's

worth.

Training on myself, early in my NF career, I started with a T3///T4 windowed

squash. About 14 sessions in, an image/state awareness came to me: I am also a

professional musician, and I had this experience of a staff of music being

projected inside my brain, on the occipitals. It was one measure, treble clef,

with a single whole note: G, on the second line from the bottom. But with this

also came the sense that for years - or perhaps my whole life - I had been at a

D (second line from the top). So in other words, my " system " had dropped down a

fifth...relaxing, and releasing.

So, for awhile I called upon this image, and the internal state that accompanied

it, and I could get continuous " beeps " from the brainmaster machine. Pretty

cool. After awhile, that faded. But later I got another image/awareness - of a

liquid of " cool and calming alpha " being poured into my brain at Cz. That

worked for awhile, and faded. And later, the image of light coming in under

the closed door of a darkened room.

These were not efforts of " trying " , but rather image associations that came to

me during periods of awareness of sustained " rewards " .

Interestingly, I haven't found other protocols that I have been able to really

" connect " with at these levels.

Hoping this maybe could give a different example of " not trying " ...but in a

sense being able to " control " outcome...

Take care,

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

, Bruce and Gretchen,Great points all!My answer would probably be more complicated than it was in the email, but after 24 days of traveling in the states ( trying single-handedly to stimulate the US economy) my brain did not look pretty, and I probably glossed over.  Thanks for keeping things honest.

I should say that, in general, when I work with people who are anxious and or obsessive, I do tend to use the " don't think, don't try, don't judge " dictum and feedback (e.g. music) that renders attempts to control and " understanding " almost impossible.  

When we're trying to break out of a slow pattern, as suggested, that can be counter-productive--like trying to train a theta brain into beta by using eyes-closed music feedback.  There I would say, here's the target.  Figure out what keeps the bar below it and see how long you can hold it there.  I would still tell them not to think or try or judge, but there would be a clear desired outcome.

I do agree that I often try to guide people into experiencing the state--though the experience is often more powerful when, like Gretchen, they find it themselves.  I use my hurricane story when trying to help people find alpha--or just ask them to recall a situation when they entered the " zone " where they just did something without thinking or trying.  I often suggest to people with excessive unblocked alpha that focusing their eyes (closed focus vs. open) can help shift them to faster states.

I guess my revised dictum would be, don't " think " (inside your head); don't " try " and (especially) don't " judge " how you are doing.  Pay attention to the feedback and to what is happening in you that connects with it.  Finding the internal state is often an intermediate step to having the state become a natural outcome of changes in the stable energy patterns.

Thanks,pete

-- Van Deusenpvdtlc@...http://www.brain-trainer.comUSA 678 224 5895

BR 47 3346 6235

The Learning Curve, Inc.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Gretchen <blueartcat@...> wrote:

 

Greetings, All -

Enjoying this discussion, and thought I'd add a few cents to it, for what it's worth.

Training on myself, early in my NF career, I started with a T3///T4 windowed squash. About 14 sessions in, an image/state awareness came to me: I am also a professional musician, and I had this experience of a staff of music being projected inside my brain, on the occipitals. It was one measure, treble clef, with a single whole note: G, on the second line from the bottom. But with this also came the sense that for years - or perhaps my whole life - I had been at a D (second line from the top). So in other words, my " system " had dropped down a fifth...relaxing, and releasing.

So, for awhile I called upon this image, and the internal state that accompanied it, and I could get continuous " beeps " from the brainmaster machine. Pretty cool. After awhile, that faded. But later I got another image/awareness - of a liquid of " cool and calming alpha " being poured into my brain at Cz. That worked for awhile, and faded. And later, the image of light coming in under the closed door of a darkened room.

These were not efforts of " trying " , but rather image associations that came to me during periods of awareness of sustained " rewards " .

Interestingly, I haven't found other protocols that I have been able to really " connect " with at these levels.

Hoping this maybe could give a different example of " not trying " ...but in a sense being able to " control " outcome...

Take care,

Gretchen