Re: metallthionein

[Guest guest]

Hi Trina,

We live in MN, and Phiefffer comes here twice a year. There are big group of

parents, they are using Phieffer treatment.I do not. What they usually find

in the autistic kids is abnormal zinc/ cooper ratio, elevated level of

histamine and bunch of other stuff. There are parents that likes it and

dislike it as well.

Without any relation to Phieffer, in this business we can not serve more

that one lord, I mean we have to choose one method and follow the treatment.

I think Dr.Goldberg does the best treatment, he treats not the symptoms, but

the cause.

Regina

metallthionein

Hey everyone,

How does Dr. Goldberg and this group feel about the metallthionein theory

and the use of MT promotor for our kiddo's? Look at the Phieffer website,

www.hriptc.org to read about it.

Trina

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[Guest guest]

I too have called Pfieffer since we are less than an hour away...they said

they would NOT run just the test for metallathionein(sp) so we have not taken

our kids there. I know they are a business and businesses exist to make

money, but it certainly is not good practice to bundle one specific test with

many others that someone is not interested in having done.

[Guest guest]

Hi Trina,

I have looked at it before. I'm sure their theory is appealing to those who

believe the mercury theory. That is not what I believe but I am not going

to get into that whole discussion again.

What I will point out is that if the children have an abnormal copper/zinc

ratio, there are alternative explanations for that. Chronic illness is one

of the references they list. To interpret that as indicating they have a MT

problem is a bit of a stretch. To determine whether there was a problem with

the MT gene there would need to be genetic research which I don't think is

their area of expertise. There is also a conflict of interest because they

are selling the vitamins that their research paper says will help.

Cheryl

>From: " Trina Montgomery " <boymom_4@...>

>Reply-

>

>Subject: metallthionein

>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:19:15 -0600

>

>Hey everyone,

>

>How does Dr. Goldberg and this group feel about the metallthionein theory

>and the use of MT promotor for our kiddo's? Look at the Phieffer website,

>www.hriptc.org to read about it.

>

>Trina

>

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[Guest guest]

Are you talking about the Pfeiffer Institute in Illinois? If you are,

when I called to make an appointment for my son they automatically told

me how much the supplements would cost. When I pointed out that we

didn't know if he needed supplements yet she informed me that everyone

who is tested needs one supplement or another. Sounded kind of fishy to

me, so I never ended up making the appointment.

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:16:37 -0800 " Cheryl B " <clbro66@...>

writes:

> Hi Trina,

> I have looked at it before. I'm sure their theory is appealing to

> those who

> believe the mercury theory. That is not what I believe but I am not

> going

> to get into that whole discussion again.

>

> What I will point out is that if the children have an abnormal

> copper/zinc

> ratio, there are alternative explanations for that. Chronic illness

> is one

> of the references they list. To interpret that as indicating they

> have a MT

> problem is a bit of a stretch. To determine whether there was a

> problem with

> the MT gene there would need to be genetic research which I don't

> think is

> their area of expertise. There is also a conflict of interest

> because they

> are selling the vitamins that their research paper says will help.

> Cheryl

>

>

> >From: " Trina Montgomery " <boymom_4@...>

> >Reply-

> >

> >Subject: metallthionein

> >Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:19:15 -0600

> >

> >Hey everyone,

> >

> >How does Dr. Goldberg and this group feel about the metallthionein

> theory

> >and the use of MT promotor for our kiddo's? Look at the Phieffer

> website,

> >www.hriptc.org to read about it.

> >

> >Trina

> >

>

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at

> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I'm new to the group, my interest is autism in particular, but also nephrotic

syndrome. I have twin boys, one autistic and the other with NS. I'm on other

lists, and keep busy but just popped in for a nose. I hope you don't mind.

In the few days I have been looking in I have seen a number of interesting

postings, and this in particular grabbed my attention:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheryl, you wrote:

" Chronic illness is one of the references they list. To interpret that as

indicating they have a MT problem is a bit of a stretch. "

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It might not be:

" The IDO (indoleamine 2,3, dioxygenase) promoter contains a diverse collection

of motifs together with the IFN-γ response elements. These include motifs for

transcription factors that bind to collagenase and elastase genes and motifs for

the transcription factor MEP-1, which regulates transcription from the

stromelysin-1 (MMP-3) and metallothionein genes "

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-2091/2/5 (Publishing peer-reviewed original

research papers with open access)

There is plenty of research to suggest the tryptophan pathway is out of kilter

in autism.

Besides; Mad Hatter's disease could be described as a chronic illness couldn't

it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not altogether convinced that MT is all that it is cracked up to be either,

but maybe it should be considered as one of many factors that are evidence of

immune dysfunction. What canned it for me was reading that mercury too, induces

MT expression, and I figure that it is not likely that using zinc to augment MT

will succeed where mercury failed.

I understand that Bill Walsh (from Pfeiffer) has more recently taken a more

flexible approach to toxicity issues. Previously he did not support chelation

therapy, and this may have changed.

Not wishing to open a can of worms, but may I ask you Cheryl? Is there no room

for the profound effects of toxic elements on the immune system in ?

For the record; I do support there being chronic immune activation behind

autism.

Jon.

metallthionein

>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:19:15 -0600

>

>Hey everyone,

>

>How does Dr. Goldberg and this group feel about the metallthionein theory

>and the use of MT promotor for our kiddo's? Look at the Phieffer website,

>www.hriptc.org to read about it.

>

>Trina

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jon,

I always appreciate good research papers. This one explains in a more

detailed way the point I was trying to make. Many different aspects of the

immune system are covered. They point out how viruses, bacteria,

inflammation cause activation that leads to catabolism of tryptophan, and

other metabolic effects.

The paper really backs what Dr. Goldberg tries to stress with . When

the immune system is off then all these other things can come into play.

If a person is sensitive to metals then they can have an immune reaction to

that. There is credible research that acknowledges that some people react

to thimerosol, nickel, etc. There are also people that have allergic

reactions to medications. That wouldn't mean that they had toxic levels,

but a reactive immune system. Once you are in this reactive state, the body

may be metabolically off and not able to rid itself of things as well. Once

the immune system settles down the body will safely detox on its own.

If there are children with elevated mercury levels they should have no

problem being treated at one of the major universities. The levels would

need to be high enough to justify the risks of chelation. So far I haven't

read about children with " autism " showing above average levels of mercury.

It's always possible if there is some type of environmental exposure going

on. I think Dr. G. did find one child that had elevated lead.

These are the symptoms for Mad Hatter's and another disorder that is

frequently mentioned. I haven't been around any children that match the

descriptions of mercury poisoning.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The " Mad Hatter, " a character in the book Alice in Wonderland, was based on

the brain disease that commonly affected hat makers who used liquid mercury

as a treatment for hat felt. Early nonspecific signs include insomnia,

forgetfulness, loss of appetite, and mild tremor and may be misdiagnosed as

psychiatric illness. Continued exposure leads to progressive tremor and

erethism, a syndrome characterized by red palms, emotional lability, and

memory impairment. Salivation, excessive sweating, and hemoconcentration are

accompanying autonomic signs. Mercury also accumulates in kidney tissues,

directly causing renal toxicity, including proteinuria or nephrotic

syndrome. Isolated renal effects may also be immunologic in origin.

In the Minamata Bay disaster and the Iraq epidemic, mothers who were

asymptomatic or showed mild toxic effects gave birth to severely affected

infants. Typically, infants appeared normal at birth, but psychomotor

retardation, blindness, deafness, and seizures developed throughout time.

>From: " Jon " <jerseybean@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: metallthionein

>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:43:36 -0000

>

>Hi all,

>

>I'm new to the group, my interest is autism in particular, but also

>nephrotic syndrome. I have twin boys, one autistic and the other with NS.

>I'm on other lists, and keep busy but just popped in for a nose. I hope you

>don't mind.

>

>In the few days I have been looking in I have seen a number of interesting

>postings, and this in particular grabbed my attention:

>

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-

>Cheryl, you wrote:

> " Chronic illness is one of the references they list. To interpret that as

>indicating they have a MT problem is a bit of a stretch. "

>

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-

>

>It might not be:

>

> " The IDO (indoleamine 2,3, dioxygenase) promoter contains a diverse

>collection of motifs together with the IFN-γ response elements. These

>include motifs for transcription factors that bind to collagenase and

>elastase genes and motifs for the transcription factor MEP-1, which

>regulates transcription from the stromelysin-1 (MMP-3) and metallothionein

>genes "

>http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-2091/2/5 (Publishing peer-reviewed

>original research papers with open access)

>

>There is plenty of research to suggest the tryptophan pathway is out of

>kilter in autism.

>

>Besides; Mad Hatter's disease could be described as a chronic illness

>couldn't it?

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

-

>

>I'm not altogether convinced that MT is all that it is cracked up to be

>either, but maybe it should be considered as one of many factors that are

>evidence of immune dysfunction. What canned it for me was reading that

>mercury too, induces MT expression, and I figure that it is not likely that

>using zinc to augment MT will succeed where mercury failed.

>

>I understand that Bill Walsh (from Pfeiffer) has more recently taken a more

>flexible approach to toxicity issues. Previously he did not support

>chelation therapy, and this may have changed.

>

>Not wishing to open a can of worms, but may I ask you Cheryl? Is there no

>room for the profound effects of toxic elements on the immune system in

>?

>

>For the record; I do support there being chronic immune activation behind

>autism.

>

>Jon.

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[Guest guest]

Jon,

I ran across something that I thought might interest you. Not necessarily

for the acetaminophen part but the infection,

immune,metabolic,immunometallic, nephrotic connection.

Am J Ther 2002 Mar-Apr;9(2):149-56 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

Important Role of Prodromal Viral Infections Responsible for Inhibition of

Xenobiotic Metabolizing Enzymes in the Pathomechanism of Idiopathic Reye's

Syndrome, s- Syndrome, Autoimmune Hepatitis, and Hepatotoxicity

of the Therapeutic Doses of Acetaminophen Used in Genetically Predisposed

Persons.

Prandota J.

Department of Pediatrics, Korczak Memorial Children's Hospital, Wroclaw,

Poland.

Upper respiratory tract febrile illnesses caused by various viruses,

mycoplasma, chlamydia infections, and/or inflammatory diseases are usually

observed a few days to a few (several) weeks before the onset of Reye's

syndrome, s- syndrome, autoimmune hepatitis (hepatotropic virus

infections), or hepatotoxicity associated with therapeutic administration of

acetaminophen in persons with varying degrees of deficits of important

enzymatic activity. Activation of systemic host defense mechanisms by

inflammatory component(s) results in depression of various induced and

constitutive isoforms of cytochrome P-450 mixed-function oxidase system

superfamily enzymes in the liver and most other tissues of the body. Because

several cytochrome P-450 enzymes activities important for biotransformation

of many endogenous and egzogenous substances show considerable variability

between individuals, in some genetically predisposed persons, even the

administration of therapeutic doses of a drug may result in serious clinical

mishaps, if an important concomitant risk factor (eg, acute viral infection)

is involved. Several inflammatory cytokines, such as interleukins,

transforming growth factor beta1, human hepatocyte growth factor, and

lymphotoxin, downregulate gene expression of major cytochrome P-450 enzymes

with the specific effects on mRNA levels, protein expression, and enzyme

activity observed with a given cytokine varying for each P-450 studied, thus

eventually leading to metabolite-mediated adverse drug reactions and

immunometallic diseases which sometimes result in tissue injury beyond the

site(s) where metabolic bioactivation takes place. On the other hand, it

must be emphasized that inhibition of metabolism of several drugs, as well

as influence on the concentration and/or ratio of various cytokines in

inflamed tissues, may exert beneficial effects in patients with different

diseases, thus opening new therapeutic possibilities. Clinically relevant

interactions may be exemplified by the effects of some fluoroquinolone

antibiotics, such as pefloxacin and ciprofloxacin, which probably have a

steroid-sparing effect in some patients with frequently relapsing nephrotic

syndrome, and an increased bioavailability of several drugs following

concomitant intake with freshly pressed grapefruit juice, eventually caused

by inhibition of their metabolism, mediated mainly by CYP3A and specifically

inhibited by naturally occurring flavonoids.

PMID: 11897929 [PubMed - in process]

>From: " Jon " <jerseybean@...>

>Reply-

>< >

>Subject: Re: metallthionein

>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:43:36 -0000

>

>Hi all,

>

>I'm new to the group, my interest is autism in particular, but also

>nephrotic syndrome. I have twin boys, one autistic and the other with NS.

>I'm on other lists, and keep busy but just popped in for a nose. I hope you

>don't mind.

>

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Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Cheryl,

Thanks for the abstract, though I am not sure that it actually applies immunology directly to nephrotic syndrome if at all. What it seems to be implying is that if you overload, or inhibit a major detoxification pathway, you can thereby augment levels of substrates of that pathway, and they use steroids as an example of one that ordinarily would use it. I'm not sure about the term "immunometallic", it seemsto be a translation error. With a bit of imagination the term might have some use, but it seemingly was used in a context where "immuno-metabolic" would perhaps have fitted better.

The fluoroquinolone antimicrobials mentioned strike the fear of God into me. They do have their place, don't get me wrong, but given the choice between steroids and Cipro for example; Steroids would win hands down (for the purpose of steroid treatment).

The toxicity of Fluoride is perhaps an issue for another list, I include just one abstract below to give some idea, but in connection with the neuro-immune theme on this list, you might like to have a look at:

http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/dose_is_the_poison/thy.htm regarding thymus/immune.

http://www.rvi.net/~fluoride/dose_is_the_poison/gpr.htm regarding G-proteins/neurotransmission.

(All referenced material, and not trying to sell anything)

I'm not trying to switch the discussion to the ill-effects of fluoride, but just wanted to bring it to your attention.

This abstract is an example of my other concerns re: fluoroquinolone antimicrobials.

1: Photochem Photobiol 1998 Apr;67(4):399-403

Fluoroquinolone antimicrobials: singlet oxygen, superoxide and phototoxicity.ez LJ, Sik RH, Chignell CF.Laboratory of Pharmacology and Chemistry, National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, National Institutes of Health, Research Triangle Park, NC, USA.The fluoroquinolone antibacterial agents possess photosensitizing properties that lead to phototoxic responses in both human and animal subjects. The phototoxicity order reported in humans is: fleroxacin > lomefloxacin, pefloxacin >> ciprofloxacin > enoxacin, norfloxacin and ofloxacin. Studies both in vivo and in vitro have related this phototoxicity to the generation of reactive oxygen species including hydrogen peroxide and the hydroxyl radical. We determined the quantum yields of singlet oxygen generation (phi delta) by detection of the singlet oxygen (1O2) luminescence at 1270 nm for several fluoroquinolones, naphthyridines and other structurally related compounds. All the fluoroquinolones examined have low phi delta values ranging from 0.06 to 0.09 in phosphate buffer at pD 7.5. We also determined the 1O2 quenching constants for these compounds and their values were on the order of 10(6) M-1 s-1, except for lomefloxacin whose rate constant was 1.8 x 10(7) M-1 s-1. The phi delta values were significantly decreased in a solvent of lower polarity such as methanol (0.007 < or = phi delta < or = 0.02). The production of 1O2 by these antibiotics did not correlate with the order reported for their phototoxicity. We also measured the photogeneration (lambda > 300 nm) of superoxide by these antibacterials in dimethylsulfoxide using electron paramagnetic resonance and the spin trap 5,5-dimethyl-1-pyrroline N-oxide. Although there is not a one-to-one correspondence between the relative rates of superoxide generation and the phototoxicity ranking of the fluoroquinolones, the more phototoxic compounds tended to produce superoxide at a faster rate. Nevertheless, the magnitudes of the observed differences do not appear sufficient to explain the range of fluoroquinolone phototoxicity potencies in human and animal subjects in general and the high activity of fleroxacin and lomefloxacin in particular. For these latter drugs the photoinduced loss of the F8 atom as fluoride and the concomitant generation of a highly reactive carbene at C-8 provide a more plausible mechanism for their potent phototoxic and photocarcinogenic properties.PMID: 9559584 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Another issue they discussed was flavonoids, and true they have their good points, but ability to impair sulphurtransferase activity (this in the context of autism though) does not make them apealing to me. You probably know about the findings Dr Waring has made re: sulphurtransferase deficiencies in autism.

I respectfully ask again: Is there no room for the profound effects of toxic elements on the immune system in ?

Jon.

Re: metallthionein>Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:43:36 -0000>>Hi all,>>I'm new to the group, my interest is autism in particular, but also >nephrotic syndrome. I have twin boys, one autistic and the other with NS. >I'm on other lists, and keep busy but just popped in for a nose. I hope you >don't mind.>_________________________________________________________________Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.comResponsibility for the content of this message lies strictly with the original author, and is not necessarily endorsed by or the opinion of the Research Institute.