diet

February 15, 2002

Hi Dennis,

I'm not sure that there is a definitive NT food pyramid. I

understand that Tom Cowan, an MD who along with Sally Fallon is

instrumental in the Weston Price Foundation (www.westonaprice.org),

has produced a food pyramid that tries to answer that need. Nobody

seems to have it at the moment, but it has been requested from him.

Hopefully he'll get a chance to redo it.

I produced my own attempt at a pyramid that kind of encapsulated some

major points since I've never seen the pyramid Dr Cowan did. You can

view my pyramid by clicking on this link:

native-

nutrition/files/Kroyer_pyramid.jpg

As a concession to Chi, you can draw in another box on it saying

something to the effect of " Make every effort to identify foods from

a producer who you know to have high quality soil. " I seriously may

add something to that effect when I rework it, which I feel I need to

do anyway because I think the current incarnation underemphasizes the

enormous importance of dietary fats.

Minneapolis

--- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...>

wrote:

> What is the " food pyramid " according to NT? I'm assuming it's

> much different than USDA's. I bought NT to try fermented drinks

> hoping to stop drinking sodas. And upon reading NT I'm sure I'm

> eating way too many carbohydrates, both simple and complex.

> Apparently NT promotes lots of protein and fats. What are the

basics

> per NT? Dennis

February 15, 2002

Dennis,

I'm sure you'll get a bunch of help on this so I'll keep this

short. Its much less about fats and proteins and much more about

real food properly prepared. Bottom line as I see it and certainly

Sally would be the final authority on this, however bottom line is

Lots and lots of veggetables, along with plenty of high quality fats

and proteins all of which depends on how and where it was grown, and

proper preparation. This is certainly the cliff notes version.

DMM

--- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...>

wrote:

> What is the " food pyramid " according to NT? I'm assuming it's

> much different than USDA's. I bought NT to try fermented drinks

> hoping to stop drinking sodas. And upon reading NT I'm sure I'm

> eating way too many carbohydrates, both simple and complex.

> Apparently NT promotes lots of protein and fats. What are the

basics

> per NT? Dennis

February 15, 2002

Hey ,

I tried to look at your prymid but words came out a " garbage " . Can

you take a look at it and see what's wrong?

I'm new to the list and really enjoying it!

February 15, 2002

>Its much less about fats and proteins and much more about

>real food properly prepared.

Hmm, I'd have to partly disagree with that. I'm not saying it's not about

eating real food and preparing it properly, because they're both essential

do-or-die elements of a healthy diet. But at least for some people, the

basic composition of their diet -- the ratios and types of protein, carbs

and fats -- is also very, very important. Sick people in particular can

often benefit greatly from cutting way back on carbs, especially grains and

legumes, and eating lots of the right fats and proteins. The glycemic

indices of different foods can be very indicators for constructing a

healthy, healing diet.

-

February 15, 2002

No kidding . He asked for the " basics " of NT not a diet

specifically prescribed for him. NT does not recommend removing

carbs, only to prepare them properly and not to refine them. If he

wants specific dietary information for him I'd need an awful lot more

info than was posted.

DMM

>

> >Its much less about fats and proteins and much more about

> >real food properly prepared.

>

> Hmm, I'd have to partly disagree with that. I'm not saying it's

not about

> eating real food and preparing it properly, because they're both

essential

> do-or-die elements of a healthy diet. But at least for some

people, the

> basic composition of their diet -- the ratios and types of protein,

carbs

> and fats -- is also very, very important. Sick people in

particular can

> often benefit greatly from cutting way back on carbs, especially

grains and

> legumes, and eating lots of the right fats and proteins. The

glycemic

> indices of different foods can be very indicators for constructing

a

> healthy, healing diet.

>

> -

February 15, 2002

From: lisamc8898 [mailto:lisamc8898@...]

> I tried to look at your prymid but words came out a " garbage " .

> Can you take a look at it and see what's wrong?

Try this: after clicking on the link and letting the image load, go to the

file menu and select " save as. " Select a location to save it to -- desktop

would probably be a good spot. Once it is saved to the desktop, try opening

it using an image program such as Microsoft Photo Editor or something. My

best guess as to why it didn't work for you is that Internet Explorer is

scaling it down for you. That would cause the image to lose detail and look

somewhat garbled.

If you still can't get that to work, let me know and I'll try to come up

with something else for you.

Minneapolis

February 15, 2002

>He asked for the " basics " of NT not a diet

>specifically prescribed for him. NT does not recommend removing

>carbs, only to prepare them properly and not to refine them.

True enough, but if, as he says, he's been eating way too many carbs, it's

probably a good idea to emphasize the fats -- which is what he was asking

about.

Also, I wonder how many people succanat is really good for. To be sure,

it's not even in the same ballpark with plain sugar, but the more I read,

the more I wonder whether we shouldn't avoid everything except certain

genuinely raw honeys.

-

February 15, 2002

wrote:

> Also, I wonder how many people succanat is really good for.

> To be sure, it's not even in the same ballpark with plain sugar,

> but the more I read, the more I wonder whether we shouldn't

> avoid everything except certain genuinely raw honeys.

,

My general philosophy on this subject is this: Unless someone is having

trouble keeping a healthy amount of weight on or they work a pretty physical

job, their food choices should be as nutrient dense and as low on the

glycemic index as possible. That pretty much precludes all sweeteners

including honey as anything but treats. However, as far as I'm concerned, a

treat is a treat. It's not there to be healthy. It's there to provide

pleasure which can be every bit as nourishing as any other nutrient. As

long as it's not toxic (hydrogenated, full of chemicals, etc), I don't

really care that much about such a small portion of my diet. I make every

effort to use sucanat, honey, malt, etc for things where it's not going to

destroy the flavor of whatever I'm using it in, but I will still use refined

sugar (albeit usually organic) when it's critical to the outcome. I believe

even the NT recipe for Kombucha calls specifically for white sugar.

And darn it, if somebody offers me a hershey's kiss, I'm going to take it!

:-)

Minneapolis

February 15, 2002

Sorry as to your point I am lost.

I strongly disagree with the notion that NT is a low carb approach.

Read the book there are tons of opportunity for carb consumption.

For sure it is a no refined carb approach, however it does not stress

carb reduction per se. The carb reduction aspect is a case by case

issue your thoughts on increasing fat and decreasing carbs may be

accurate for him and at the same time may very well not be. I simply

was not and still am not willing to make that assumption just based

on the 3 sentences he posted.

And what the heck you are referring to regarding the sweetners I have

no clue.

DMM

>

> >He asked for the " basics " of NT not a diet

> >specifically prescribed for him. NT does not recommend removing

> >carbs, only to prepare them properly and not to refine them.

>

> True enough, but if, as he says, he's been eating way too many

carbs, it's

> probably a good idea to emphasize the fats -- which is what he was

asking

> about.

>

> Also, I wonder how many people succanat is really good for. To be

sure,

> it's not even in the same ballpark with plain sugar, but the more I

read,

> the more I wonder whether we shouldn't avoid everything except

certain

> genuinely raw honeys.

>

> -

February 15, 2002

While I would agree that NT is not a low carb approach, it is ceratinly

sprinkled throughout the book in many of the sidebars. If you wanted to

take that approach you certainly could walk away from NT with plenty of

ammunition.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:41:41 -0000 " drmichaelmarasco "

<mmarasco@...> writes:

Sorry as to your point I am lost.

I strongly disagree with the notion that NT is a low carb approach.

Read the book there are tons of opportunity for carb consumption.

For sure it is a no refined carb approach, however it does not stress

carb reduction per se. The carb reduction aspect is a case by case

issue your thoughts on increasing fat and decreasing carbs may be

accurate for him and at the same time may very well not be. I simply

was not and still am not willing to make that assumption just based

on the 3 sentences he posted.

And what the heck you are referring to regarding the sweetners I have

no clue.

DMM

>

> >He asked for the " basics " of NT not a diet

> >specifically prescribed for him. NT does not recommend removing

> >carbs, only to prepare them properly and not to refine them.

>

> True enough, but if, as he says, he's been eating way too many

carbs, it's

> probably a good idea to emphasize the fats -- which is what he was

asking

> about.

>

> Also, I wonder how many people succanat is really good for. To be

sure,

> it's not even in the same ballpark with plain sugar, but the more I

read,

> the more I wonder whether we shouldn't avoid everything except

certain

> genuinely raw honeys.

>

> -

February 15, 2002

No doubt Bianca. I agree.

This issue all began with me responding to one specific request and I

am confident that my statements on this topic are being over

analyzed. So my recommendation is this. See my post # 4215 and

insert NT low carb vs. not for the soy vs. soil and enjoy the rest of

your evening and weekend. :-))))))

DMM

> >

> > >He asked for the " basics " of NT not a diet

> > >specifically prescribed for him. NT does not recommend removing

> > >carbs, only to prepare them properly and not to refine them.

> >

> > True enough, but if, as he says, he's been eating way too many

> carbs, it's

> > probably a good idea to emphasize the fats -- which is what he

was

> asking

> > about.

> >

> > Also, I wonder how many people succanat is really good for. To

be

> sure,

> > it's not even in the same ballpark with plain sugar, but the more

I

> read,

> > the more I wonder whether we shouldn't avoid everything except

> certain

> > genuinely raw honeys.

> >

> > -

>

February 15, 2002

I will enjoy the rest of my weekend! Thanks!!

By the way I do agree with you that the low carb approach is a case by

case issue. For me I have adopted an approach generically known as the

cyclical ketogenic diet. In a nutshell my carbs are very low during the

week and very high on the weekend (which fits fine with my lifestyle

anyway). This allows me to maintain my body weight rather effortlessly

without the deprivation problem. It has been a godsend.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 23:23:15 -0000 " drmichaelmarasco "

<mmarasco@...> writes:

No doubt Bianca. I agree.

This issue all began with me responding to one specific request and I

am confident that my statements on this topic are being over

analyzed. So my recommendation is this. See my post # 4215 and

insert NT low carb vs. not for the soy vs. soil and enjoy the rest of

your evening and weekend. :-))))))

DMM

> While I would agree that NT is not a low carb approach, it is

ceratinly

> sprinkled throughout the book in many of the sidebars. If you

wanted to

> take that approach you certainly could walk away from NT with

plenty of

> ammunition.

>

> On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 21:41:41 -0000 " drmichaelmarasco "

> <mmarasco@c...> writes:

> Sorry as to your point I am lost.

> I strongly disagree with the notion that NT is a low carb approach.

>

> Read the book there are tons of opportunity for carb consumption.

> For sure it is a no refined carb approach, however it does not

stress

> carb reduction per se. The carb reduction aspect is a case by case

> issue your thoughts on increasing fat and decreasing carbs may be

> accurate for him and at the same time may very well not be. I

simply

> was not and still am not willing to make that assumption just based

> on the 3 sentences he posted.

>

> And what the heck you are referring to regarding the sweetners I

have

> no clue.

>

> DMM

>

February 15, 2002

Bianca,

Could you direct me to any literature about the cyclical ketogenic approach?

Thanks!

Minneapolis

February 16, 2002

>For me I have adopted an approach generically known as the

>cyclical ketogenic diet. In a nutshell my carbs are very low during the

>week and very high on the weekend (which fits fine with my lifestyle

>anyway).

While I know nothing about the cyclical ketogenic diet specifically, I

would worry that yo-yoing of that sort could potentially stress your

insulin response and ultimately contribute to hyperinsulinemia. Of course,

providing you're doing your carbs NT-style, there's probably less reason to

worry about that than with the standard American diet, but still, maybe

it's something to think about.

-

February 16, 2002

>I strongly disagree with the notion that NT is a low carb approach.

Oh, I didn't say it was. There's a lot of information in NT to buttress

the low-carb approach, and relative to a low-fat diet it's at least a

lower-carb diet, but it isn't by itself low-carb.

>Read the book there are tons of opportunity for carb consumption.

Quite. In fact, one could potentially put together a very sweet, very

high-carb diet from the book by selectively picking recipes. Not that

anyone would advocate that, just a point.

>And what the heck you are referring to regarding the sweetners I have

>no clue.

Just referring to the fact that I think many people should be very careful

with *all* sweeteners, even healthier (or less unhealthy) ones like

sucanat, which NT recommends.

-

February 16, 2002

Hi ,

I hope some of these links help.

This has found some guarded popularity in the bodybuilding community

because it is seen as a way to burn fat and spare muscle (ala Atkins,

Eades, etc) and yet build muscle without succumbing to the fat storing

properties of insulin, which is considered anabolic as well.

Of course most of the establishment thinks stuff of this nature is

dangerous because of its high protein high fat nature but then again most

of the establishment thinks Sally Fallon and all followers of traditional

dietary patterns nuts as well.

http://www.davedraper.com/ketogenic-diet-book.html

The point is you have to filter through a lot of stuff that would not be

related to a group like native nutrition. Nevertheless I have found it

useful modified to meet my own health parameters.

http://www.metabolicdiet.com/index2.htm#

You can find a series of abstracts here detailing the cyclical keto

diets:

http://www.solid.net/lowcarb/lylemcd/cyclic1.htm

http://www.solid.net/lowcarb/lylemcd/cyclic2.htm

http://www.solid.net/lowcarb/lylemcd/cyclic3.htm

Like I said all this is much more complicated than it needs to be for my

purposes. Most folks aren't bodybuilders but with a little common sense

it can be adapted easily for a lay person if they so choose.

Hope this helps.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 17:43:36 -0600 Kroyer

<skroyer@...> writes:

Bianca,

Could you direct me to any literature about the cyclical ketogenic

approach?

Thanks!

Minneapolis

February 16, 2002

-

>I believe

>even the NT recipe for Kombucha calls specifically for white sugar.

That's true, though the theory is that the kombucha culture consumes all

the sugar in turning the sweetened tea into kombucha. (I just got a

kombucha culture from GEM, and my first batch never diminished that much in

sweetness -- the tartness just came on top of a thick, syruppy

sweetness. So my second batch is incubating with less sugar.)

>And darn it, if somebody offers me a hershey's kiss, I'm going to take it!

I've found, unfortunately, that as much as my health has improved on a

natural-foods/NT/low-carb diet, I'm still hyper-sensitive to bad stuff, so

if I indulge in a desert, I'm basically screwed. That hasn't entirely

stopped me, but it has given me pause. <g>

-

February 16, 2002

I'm suspicious of the question. It sure looks to me like there are

healthy people all over the world, eating all sorts of things. As I

read the book, price, and other things, the point seems to be:

1. Eat food that has been prepared and grown properly.

2. A lot of cuisines use soups and a central point of those soups is

the broths. (no mystery, if you look at cookbooks about some places

in the world)

3. animal products are not things to be afraid of, but, perhaps, not

overdone.

Soren

--- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...>

wrote:

> What is the " food pyramid " according to NT? I'm assuming it's

> much different than USDA's. I bought NT to try fermented drinks

> hoping to stop drinking sodas. And upon reading NT I'm sure I'm

> eating way too many carbohydrates, both simple and complex.

> Apparently NT promotes lots of protein and fats. What are the

basics

> per NT? Dennis

February 16, 2002

I asked that question directly about 6 months ago. Answer was that

Weston A. Price Foundation has not taken an official position on the

issue of percentage of fats, protiens and carbs, except to say that

30% of calories from fat should be the minimum daily consumption, not

the maximum as the low fat proponents will have you believe. Then

went on to caution that many people, for example diabetics, need much

more fat and much less carbs. Also you will see in NT Sally does say

that many people do not do well on grains or gain weight eating a lot

of grains. So despite the USDA saying everyone should eat a lot of

grains, and Dr. Atkins saying everyone should avoid grains, it all

comes down to individual requirements. For example I remember one

message about a year ago on the alt.support.diet.low-carb news group

in which a couple had been on Atkins diet for 90 days. The family

doctor encouraged the husband to contiunue Atkins, but strongly

cautioned the wife drop Atkins. Same doctor, different patients. That

doctor was not influenced by the negative hype against Atkins and the

positive spin of the food pyramid, the the actual results in front of

him. Although, I must admit the doctor's decision had a lot to do

with the different cholesterol and trigylceride results of the two

individuals, plus the fact the wife didn't lose as well as the

husband, it is a lot better than most doctors who just by into the

protein is bad for you myth.

--- In @y..., " dkemnitz2000 " <dkemnitz2000@y...>

wrote:

> What is the " food pyramid " according to NT? I'm assuming it's

> much different than USDA's. I bought NT to try fermented drinks

> hoping to stop drinking sodas. And upon reading NT I'm sure I'm

> eating way too many carbohydrates, both simple and complex.

> Apparently NT promotes lots of protein and fats. What are the

basics

> per NT? Dennis

February 16, 2002

It turns out I end up doing this only once or twice a month, when I

deviate from my nearly 100% raw and low carb diet. Or as I like to call

it, Atkins with some cheat days. Only my cheat days consist of NT style

carbs and only on a rare rare ocassion the bad stuff. Nevertheless my

body continues to burn fat for fuel during these times and doesn't have

any problems with insulin, which is the basis behind the CKD in the first

place.

On Fri, 15 Feb 2002 19:34:23 -0500 Idol <Idol@...>

writes:

>For me I have adopted an approach generically known as the

>cyclical ketogenic diet. In a nutshell my carbs are very low during the

>week and very high on the weekend (which fits fine with my lifestyle

>anyway).

While I know nothing about the cyclical ketogenic diet specifically, I

would worry that yo-yoing of that sort could potentially stress your

insulin response and ultimately contribute to hyperinsulinemia. Of

course,

providing you're doing your carbs NT-style, there's probably less reason

to

worry about that than with the standard American diet, but still, maybe

it's something to think about.

-

February 16, 2002

You are probably using Microsoft Internet Explorer. The pyramid looks

fine with Netscape (both old 4.7 and new 6.2.1). It is also readable

with Opera, www.opera.com

Another thing you can do is back up one level to:

/files/ and then scroll

down and find the file name. Right click your mouse and select " Save

Target As. " When you have it downloaded to your computer you can use

another file viewer to look at it. Even Microsoft Photo Editor works

if you have the magnification set to 100%

> Hey ,

>

> I tried to look at your prymid but words came out a " garbage " . Can

> you take a look at it and see what's wrong?

>

> I'm new to the list and really enjoying it!

February 17, 2002

Thanks. I was able to open it. It was trying to see it as really,

really tiny text. No wonder I could not read it. It does look

different than the FDA one - better I'd say! It's going on the frig!

Thanks again,

February 18, 2002

To all,

I think we are hung up on the notion of a pyramid. Why do our food

guildelines need to be in the shape of a pyramid? Sally

February 18, 2002

Hi Sally,

I think the pyramid is good because it acts as an easily grasped

counterpoint to the government pyramid. People have a fairly established

sense of how the establishment is telling them to eat, and that sense is

closely tied to the " official " pyramid for many. I see the pyramid as a

tool to help them understand how this differs. In my experience thus far,

many people express interest in how we're eating, but they don't initially

have sufficient interest to read the intro to your book much less all of

Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. The pyramid is a tool for giving them

the cliff-notes version. I also think that many people need visual

respresentation of things; it could be a square, pie-chart, or octagon...but

they're familiar with the pyramid paradigm already so it's somewhat of a

natural, I think.

You're right that people are hung up on the pyramid, which is why I chose to

make a pyramid. When I'm talking to people about how I'm eating, I'm

already hitting them with a massive dietary paradigm shift, anything that

will make it more familiar and easy to relate to their current diet eases

the introduction. A big danger, of course, is oversimplification and

misdirected emphasis. I already discovered that with my first version that

I posted here; I'd like to think that issues like that can be " tweaked " to

be more accurate, though. To that end, any suggestions for changes to my

current version would be appreciated...

As a final note, I don't really see it as much of a valuable tool for people

who are already familiar with NT or Weston Price...unless maybe at the very

beginning. It's almost more of a marketing tool...

Minneapolis (WAPF lucky member # 2000 :-) )

Sally wrote:

> I think we are hung up on the notion of a pyramid. Why

> do our food guildelines need to be in the shape of a pyramid?

Sally

February 18, 2002

>I see the pyramid as a

>tool to help them understand how this differs.

One other factor here is we have been told all our lives how much of each food

group to eat. Many on this list have wondered what area they should eat more and

what areas less. I do not think it matters really. I remember hearing Sally at

an acres conference and she gave examples of Dr Price's findings in many

different cultures and some diets were high in vegetables, others high in milk

products, and still others high in meat. It did not seem to matter, they were

all healthy.

I have wondered though if different people should eat different ways, as

expressed by some here on this list, maybe our heritage really does matter and

we should eat closer to how our ancestors would have eaten. Or if where we live

is the factor in this and we should eat more locally and focus on adaptation

instead. The only problem with locally is the salt issue and fish oils. Salt and

fish oils are lot located in every portion on the world, especially to the

nutritional standards we can find only in certain places of the world.

Grace,

a Augustine

I wish you enough sun to keep your attitude bright.

I wish you enough rain to appreciate the sun more.

I wish you enough happiness to keep your spirit alive.

I wish you enough pain so that the smallest joys in life appear much bigger.

I wish you enough gain to satisfy your wanting.

I wish you enough loss to appreciate all that you possess.

I wish you enough ''Hello's " to get you through the final goodbye.

--anonymous

----- Original Message -----

From: Kroyer

' '

Sent: Monday, February 18, 2002 3:46 PM

Subject: RE: Re: diet