Chronic pain

November 27, 2001

Vent all you want Denisa !!! That Helps also !!! You have every reason to be depressed !!! I had Headaches everyday for over twenty years at varying degrees... Until I got the shots in my head I had No relief... Some days were unbearable ( Others were tolerable, but you learn to live with it... When you start getting down the worse, do something that makes you think of anything else but the headache... Take a small walk, breathing techniques, find out what makes You the happiest and try that ) Its just a suggestion ) I tried so many different things in those twenty years... I still get headaches, but Nothing like I used too )

Don't let the Dr's treat you like your stupid ! You are a Person, with medical problems that need to be taken care of !!! I Still say Try and find another Dr. There has to be someone else out there for you !!!

How are you feeling now ??? I'm a little behind in my mail ( Sorry...

{{{ Headache Free Hugs }}}

Helen

I have chronic pain from the cyst inside my skull. in turn, that causes chronic depression. Maybe not causes it, but makes it a little worse. I brought this up to a friend who said she completely understood why I was depressed. My head hurts ALL the time. Sometimes much worse than others Doctors treat me like a stupid woman. I'm on disability and until Friday could not go anywhere without calling someone. Thank goodness my car is fixed Am I just justifying my depression or is it a real reason? I guess I'm just venting.

November 28, 2001

Thanks Helen

Re:Chronic pain

Vent all you want Denisa !!! That Helps also !!! You have every reason to be depressed !!! I had Headaches everyday for over twenty years at varying degrees... Until I got the shots in my head I had No relief... Some days were unbearable ( Others were tolerable, but you learn to live with it... When you start getting down the worse, do something that makes you think of anything else but the headache... Take a small walk, breathing techniques, find out what makes You the happiest and try that ) Its just a suggestion ) I tried so many different things in those twenty years... I still get headaches, but Nothing like I used too ) Don't let the Dr's treat you like your stupid ! You are a Person, with medical problems that need to be taken care of !!! I Still say Try and find another Dr. There has to be someone else out there for you !!! How are you feeling now ??? I'm a little behind in my mail ( Sorry... {{{ Headache Free Hugs }}} Helen I have chronic pain from the cyst inside my skull. in turn, that causes chronic depression. Maybe not causes it, but makes it a little worse. I brought this up to a friend who said she completely understood why I was depressed. My head hurts ALL the time. Sometimes much worse than others Doctors treat me like a stupid woman. I'm on disability and until Friday could not go anywhere without calling someone. Thank goodness my car is fixed Am I just justifying my depression or is it a real reason? I guess I'm just venting. ~~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~~ The Being Sick CommunityMemorial Pagehttp://www.dreamwater.net/lovingmemory/Message Archives and Digest Attachment Pictures:-/messagesChat:- Scheduled Daily Chats at # on IRC DALnet./files/chat.htmBookmarks:-Add a website URL you have found useful./linksPersonal Complaints or problems:-Please contact a moderator email: -owner Subscription Details:-1) Individual email - means that every email sent to the list you receive.2) Daily Digest - sends you 25 messages in one single email for you to browse. This is an excellent option if you receive alot of email.3) Web only/No mail - means that you can pop into eGroups at your convenience and receive no email.To modify your subscription settings please visit:- /joinTo subscribe or unsubscribe please email:--subscribe -unsubscribe ~~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~~“Hold on to what is good, even if it's a handful of earth. Hold on to what you believe, even if it's a tree that stands by itself. Hold on to what you must do even, if it's a long way from here. Hold on to your life, even if it's easier to let go." - Pueblo Prayer~~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~ *** ~~~~

August 24, 2002

In a message dated 8/22/02 11:59:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hrn@...

writes:

Actually, Philip writes:

< I've been on pain killers for years because of my back

and I need them , But I am hooked no dought about it >>

I'd like to comment on Philip's post (I don't know whether it will be to him

or not....since it came from the chronic pain forum)

First Philip, I don't know how many pain killers that you are taking....since

you seem to be worried about something happening to you in the future....or

whether or not you are getting them from your doctor legit, trying to get

more, etc. Have you been having trouble with them? I'll assume your doctor is

currently aware of you situation and can guide you.

I agree with Ray, and I'm taking the liberty of typing a quote from a doctor

that leads a prescription drug addiction forum who writes: " Chronic users of

narcotics become physically dependent, which means that they develop

tolerance (needing more and more as time goes on to derive the same effect)

and withdrawal (they experience a typical syndrome of discomfort when they

abruptly discontinue the medication or reduce their dose. However, so long as

you use the medication as prescribed and work with a " competent " doctor to

determine the most *effective and least harmful* medication regimen, you will

not be technically addicted. Addiction starts when you take matters into your

own hands, and begin to use the narcotic not as prescribed. So make sure you

are working with a doctor who understands both pain and addiction, and you

should be in pretty good shape. " (end quote.)

I would like to add a couple of things from my own personal experience. l.)

Good things can often become bad if we do not have a healthy respect for

them. We all know of stories about a few unscrupulous " doctors? " out there

that thrive on chronic pain patients and this is one of the reasons we are

having doctors all over the country being investigated today. My home state,

Florida (not the only state with problems I might add), had quite a few

doctors that were recently arrested for over prescribing pain medications, by

all accounts they were doing just that...the amounts were outrageous. This

has made it hard for good doctors to address the pain issue. 2.) We should be

very careful about " some " pain clinics and not go searching for them on our

own. My sister's best friend, who had painful RA since childhood (she's 40

now), went to one of these pain clinics in Ohio. She said that her friend

became like a zombie, couldn't think for herself, and did nothing but lay in

bed all day in a semiconscious state....for months on end. This was not

addressing her pain in a proper way. A friend of our family, a registered

nurse, had a terrible auto accident with many surgeries on her face. She was

prescribed vicodin for her pain. She became addicted and she started stealing

the narcotics from the hospital she worked at. She has since gone to a rehab

and is now aware that she has an addictive personality for these types of

substances, but I seriously think that she will have trouble with future

employment as an RN. Others, that we know on past lists had been trying to go

from one doctor to another seeking more of their pain medications. This is

where many can develop problems. If you have these types of problems,

regardless of your legitimate chronic pain needs, please seek help...tell

your doctor so that they can advise you on how to taper the drug and put you

on a more reasonable pain regimen. I'm just addressing the few that may get

into this type of trouble. No one will arrest you for seeking help like our

family friend finally did...even though she was caught, she is now thankful

for this intervention. As I said, the problem with addiction comes with

taking the matter into your own hands...seeking doctor after doctor to

prescribe more and more medication or simply by taking more than has been

prescribed for you without the doctors knowledge and getting into a tight

corner needing emergency help. Many people, who have a legitimate reason for

being prescribed an " addictive or habit forming " medication have become

addicted (in the true sense of this word) to their prescribed narcotics,

sleeping pills, and tranquilizers. There is a reason for the warning on all

these medications WARNING: CAN BE HABIT FORMING/ADDICTIVE. These label

warnings come from the pharmacy/pharmaceutical company/and from the doctor

who is prescribing them to you. In other words, the warning is not to a

family member or someone who may pick up your medication indiscriminately. I

don't think I'm the lone voice out here that believes it is impossible to

become addicted when we are given these type of drugs for our pain, and I

don't think it should be downplayed. Even in the news we know of people that

have come forward telling us of the dangers that narcotic, and/or other

addictive medications can pose. We don't have to be movie stars or famous

people to have this problem. Most of us have to take several habit forming

drugs...like our muscle relaxants, sleeping pill, transqualizers, etc. etc.

Most of these effect the CNS central nervious system and we shouldn't be

poping them like candy or everyday unless we are closely monitored and have

several doctors that agree with this type treatment. I had to be on several

of the above at the same time for a couple of weeks...and I am thoroughly

convinced it set off a lupus drug reaction that lasted for 1 1/2 years. No

sun or light, no hot baths, sick, sick with several different rashes all over

my body. You don't want that....it was worse than the pain I had.

Please don't feel I'm against pain medications, and by no means, are my

comments meant to make anyone feel guilty or fear their use...because I will

tell you up front...I am very THANKFUL that most doctors are addressing

chronic pain with the use of narcotics. To me, and many in our group, pain

medications do permit us to live a " half way " normal life. I am one of the

benefiting benefactors to their use. But, to say that addiction cannot or

that it does not happen to people like us is not being straightforward or do

not aware of the dangers it can pose. The 1% addiction rate for prescription

narcotic drugs is misleading. (sometimes these reports go from one web site

to another without having the documents to show). In many reports it is more

like +16%. I've seen it as high as 23%. It is my personal opinion that the 1%

figure is being promoted by the drug companies and I've heard this same 1%

for several years now. IMHO, I would think that it would be very hard to

definitely find out what that percentage is, and secondly, now that narcotic

use for chronic pain is on the increase for our type of arthritis, especially

for AS, that percentage rate has more likely than not, also increased over

the last few years. My comments are meant to help anyone that has gone " over

the edge " and needs to seek help in a new found problem of addiction. My

heart goes out to anyone that has this problem..I've been to many, many

Narcotics (NA) meetings with a daughter that had this addiction for 20 years.

So I may seem a little prejudice and would like to help anyone with this

problem. For those of us that have no problem...God Bless and pass the

ammunition. After sitting here writing this I need something for horrible

back and neck pain. I'm really going to try to get on the Embrel list....that

will help me get off the vicodin. I have heard so many good reports about it.

I haven't heard if Medicare will except it though. Anyone know?

Jeff, your email about Faces of Pain from the web site Partneragainstpain

sponsored by Purdue Pharma L.P seems to to have (at least in the old days) a

conflict of interest since they are the manufacturers of Oxycontin and other

narcotics. They would love to have EVERYONE on Oxycontin. Talk about

addicting our kids with cigarettes!!!! 16% seems pretty high for chronic pain

patients.. Maybe that includes everyone that is a little neurotic and needs

something to alter there thinking pain, too. I really feel we talk too much

about narcotic pain medicines. (It gives me a pain) I believe many in our

group have had a spondy for a short duration and do not have the need for

these strong medications yet and may never need them. NSAID, some of the

other lesser DMARD, exercise, coping skills are probably enough for now for

most. Not until recently, last few years, have I had the need for narcotics

and I have pretty much a whole fused spine with neck, ribs, hips involvement.

Like someone said, if you start on narcotics in your 20s, what are you going

to be able to take in your late 60s/70s when the pain is the worse, at least

for me? Just another perspective for thought.

Best regards, Connie (granny)

http://www.medhelp.org/forums/addiction/

(After opening above page, click on " Yes, I agree. " Then click on " browse

archives " )

February 19, 2003

Mark,

I don't necessarily think of this as a rebound as much as a very short

training halo effect. The fact that she is experiencing such a dramatic

reduction is very positive. The fact that, after 5 sessions, it's not very

lasting doesn't surprise me too much. Chances are you have someone who has

built this up over a period of many years, and it may take a while to

unwind.

You might try some C3/A1 beta as well, adding it into your T3/T4 session on

the front end to see if that changes anything.

Pete

Chronic Pain

Pete and group:

I am currently treating a young woman for chronic pain. After doing the

assessment, I started with T3/4. During treatment, her pain goes from a

9 on a scale of 1 to 10 to about a 2. When I lower the frequency a half

a hertz the pain goes down to about a 1.

The problem is that shortly after the treatment the pain returns to its

previous intensity. To me this looks like a classic rebound, but I am

wondering if there is something I am missing.

She has done 5 sessions of about 25 minute total training at least twice

a week.

Mark

My address has changed. Please reply to: mail@...

February 19, 2003

Pete:

That's an interesting answer in as much as I added Cz/FZ SMR. The reason

I did it was to get a better handle on the theta. I am finding with my

cross hemispheric clients that Theta is so coherent that adding another

channel lets me operate on it more directly.

What would the Beta at C3 accomplish?

Mark

My address has changed. Please reply to: <mailto:mail@...>

mail@...

Chronic Pain

Pete and group:

I am currently treating a young woman for chronic pain. After doing

the

assessment, I started with T3/4. During treatment, her pain goes from

a

9 on a scale of 1 to 10 to about a 2. When I lower the frequency a

half

a hertz the pain goes down to about a 1.

The problem is that shortly after the treatment the pain returns to

its

previous intensity. To me this looks like a classic rebound, but I am

wondering if there is something I am missing.

She has done 5 sessions of about 25 minute total training at least

twice

a week.

Mark

My address has changed. Please reply to: mail@...

February 19, 2003

Depending on what it already looks like, beta training can activate the

brain to take greater control. SMR training may actually make the client

MORE aware of the pain. Certainly the more theta-stuck a client is, the

more internal their awareness and the " louder " the pain messages may be.

Pete

RE: Chronic Pain

Pete:

That's an interesting answer in as much as I added Cz/FZ SMR. The reason

I did it was to get a better handle on the theta. I am finding with my

cross hemispheric clients that Theta is so coherent that adding another

channel lets me operate on it more directly.

What would the Beta at C3 accomplish?

Mark

---

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May 28, 2003

I completely applaud your article. I suffer from severe RA, degenerative disc

disease, two blown out discs, etc. My husband suffers form such severe

degenerative disc disease has had five surgeries they wanted to cut him front

and

back move his intestines to fill him with a metal cage. He already has one in

his neck. Without pain management we would have no life-we have a 2 year old son

are 39 and 45 respectively and we are not addicts anymore than a diabetic is

an addict to insulin. I am so tired of hearing that we should be able to

function on the typical meds and stay away from the opiates, I say walk a mile

in

my shoes!

May 28, 2003

Louise,

I'm not sure if I'd call this discussion a firestorm. It is a much needed

discussion with so many misunderstandings that even the so called experts

don't get it. and I send in article after article that support the use

of narcotics in chronic pain. We've also sent in many articles that

explain the difference between addiction and dependency. The tides are

turning and hopefully more doctors will learn that treating the pain is more

beneficial to the patient and that the risk of addiction is very low.

Coming from an alcohol dependent family too, I was once afraid of pain

medication and addiction. I've since learned that addiction doesn't happen

to those that use it for pain. I suffered needlessly for many years because

of the misconceptions about pain and narcotics. I believe that secondary

fibromyalgia is a result of untreated constant pain. There is much research

that has been done on untreated pain and the health problems associated with

it.

In many cases such as yours, there is no treatment that can relieve your

pain and there is no choice but to manage the pain the best way they can.

I am very happy for you that you've found someone that takes pain seriously

and is treating it as it should be. We just have to keep hoping that the

misconceptions and fallacies will one day be dealt with. You deserve to

feel the best that you can with whatever the doctors have to offer.

a

> Dear RA Support; I seemed to start a firestorm with my mentioning that I had

> seen a pain specialist. After 10 years of chronic non stop PAIN I had had

> it. I am 51 years old and the only way I am going to have a child is if a

> star appears in the East. Yes there is a BIG difference between dependence

> and addiction. If I am diabetic I am " dependent " on insulin. If I am

> addicted- I would sell my sainted grandmother and myself on the nearest

> street corner for that next high. and do anything to get the next fix. If

> you are in such pain and for so long it is termed " Chronic pain. " Lortab 1O

> does not make me " high " it just takes some of the pain away which has been

> the monkey on my back for 10+ years. I have inoperable lumbar stenosis,a

> congenital defect of the lumbar spine,arthritic spurs inside the vertrbrae

> that are digging into my spinal cord.This has been causing my right leg to

> give out on me un -expectedly. I do not dare try to walk great

> distances(like the supermarket) because I never know when it will give out.I

> use the carts Walmart provides. Rheumatoid

> arhritis,osteoarthritis,osteoporosis,bilateral knee repacements, Peripheral

> neuropathy,my hips need replacing next and I was told to NOT let any surgeon

> operate on my spine because it SO bad as it is would collapse like a house

> of cards.- Had I also mentioned that I had a sympathetic nerve block which

> blocked out SOME of the pain but not all of the pain ( performed by the pain

> specialist).. I sought the expertise of a pain specialist because it is

> available to me and frankly it is MY business. Yes I DO have family members

> who are addicts. They dealt with their problems in a negative way.I am in

> " Chronic Pain " and there is a differnce if I was just having a " bad day " . I

> do not think slugging down a quart of vodka a day like some of my family do

> when they are having a " bad day " is especially positive. However, as a former

> RN (from 1973-1998)I do not think you have the true handle on addiction vs.

> dependence. issue. I am not going to every ER or pharmacy in town to get 12

> scripts of Oxycontin filled.ly It would have been easier to just to

> jack up the drugs but after taking Darvocet and Ultram I refused to ask for

> ANYTHING stronger until I had sought out the pain specialist, BECAUSE of my

> family history..... You are clubbing me with my family history and My

> problem. I do not drink alcohol by choice AND because I take

> methotrexate>>>I do not and will not take medication unless it is

> prescribed. I too have seen people abuse the system. I am NOT one of

> them..Mos tchronic pain patients are like me they want some sort of LIFE

> back.This ONE Doc will be responsible for my pain meds ONLY and I had to

> sign a legal agreement that went into my chart which meant we had discussed

> and agreed to this. THAT was fine with me.(Since the Doc is younger than me

> I don't think he is going to retire soon and/or drop dead. ) I go to ONE

> pharmacy for my meds . I am sure and a could come up with some

> articles to enlighten all of you on the matter. The study of Pain management

> IS a speciality now-Thank God for me and others like me who have suffered

> for years. ly lettng people suffer intractable pain is barbaric. I am

> glad whatever floats your boat works for you and yours.But someday YOU will

> be in the position I am in and I hope you find a board -certified pain

> specialist to assist you. ly I would have sent it to privately

> but I had not kept her E-mail when she was kind enough to first post to me.

> Louise

>

> Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes, then when they get

> mad, they will be a mile away and barefoot -- Sue

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> ----

>

May 28, 2003

Louise,

I very much apologise if my comments were taken personally. I had

NOT intended that at all. My initial post thanked you, for your

post, it does give me hope. I had not intended to for my comments

to perceived as a personal attack on you or anyone else, and

certainly not in any way a comment on family histories. Alcohol is

the very least of my family's piss poor coping mechanisms.

I had hoped that my comments made that clear. I apologise for

the misunderstanding...

I was expressing my very personal concerns in regards to opiate

therapy. That is all, I had not intended to suggest that choices I

live with are the only correct answer

--- In , Louise Neustadter <RNLouise@c...>

wrote:

> Dear RA Support; I seemed to start a firestorm with my mentioning

that I had

> seen a pain specialist. After 10 years of chronic non stop PAIN I

had had

> it. I am 51 years old and the only way I am going to have a child

is if a

> star appears in the East. Yes there is a BIG difference between

dependence

> and addiction. If I am diabetic I am " dependent " on insulin. If I

am

> addicted- I would sell my sainted grandmother and myself on the

nearest

> street corner for that next high. and do anything to get the next

fix. If

> you are in such pain and for so long it is termed " Chronic pain. "

Lortab 1O

> does not make me " high " it just takes some of the pain away which

has been

> the monkey on my back for 10+ years. I have inoperable lumbar

stenosis,a

> congenital defect of the lumbar spine,arthritic spurs inside the

vertrbrae

> that are digging into my spinal cord.This has been causing my

right leg to

> give out on me un -expectedly. I do not dare try to walk great

> distances(like the supermarket) because I never know when it will

give out.I

> use the carts Walmart provides. Rheumatoid

> arhritis,osteoarthritis,osteoporosis,bilateral knee repacements,

Peripheral

> neuropathy,my hips need replacing next and I was told to NOT let

any surgeon

> operate on my spine because it SO bad as it is would collapse

like a house

> of cards.- Had I also mentioned that I had a sympathetic nerve

block which

> blocked out SOME of the pain but not all of the pain ( performed

by the pain

> specialist).. I sought the expertise of a pain specialist because

it is

> available to me and frankly it is MY business. Yes I DO have

family members

> who are addicts. They dealt with their problems in a negative

way.I am in

> " Chronic Pain " and there is a differnce if I was just having

a " bad day " . I

> do not think slugging down a quart of vodka a day like some of my

family do

> when they are having a " bad day " is especially positive. However,

as a former

> RN (from 1973-1998)I do not think you have the true handle on

addiction vs.

> dependence. issue. I am not going to every ER or pharmacy in town

to get 12

> scripts of Oxycontin filled.ly It would have been easier to

just to

> jack up the drugs but after taking Darvocet and Ultram I refused

to ask for

> ANYTHING stronger until I had sought out the pain specialist,

BECAUSE of my

> family history..... You are clubbing me with my family history and

My

> problem. I do not drink alcohol by choice AND because I take

> methotrexate>>>I do not and will not take medication unless it is

> prescribed. I too have seen people abuse the system. I am NOT one

of

> them..Mos tchronic pain patients are like me they want some sort

of LIFE

> back.This ONE Doc will be responsible for my pain meds ONLY and I

had to

> sign a legal agreement that went into my chart which meant we had

discussed

> and agreed to this. THAT was fine with me.(Since the Doc is

younger than me

> I don't think he is going to retire soon and/or drop dead. ) I go

to ONE

> pharmacy for my meds . I am sure and a could come up with

some

> articles to enlighten all of you on the matter. The study of Pain

management

> IS a speciality now-Thank God for me and others like me who have

suffered

> for years. ly lettng people suffer intractable pain is

barbaric. I am

> glad whatever floats your boat works for you and yours.But someday

YOU will

> be in the position I am in and I hope you find a board -certified

pain

> specialist to assist you. ly I would have sent it to

privately

> but I had not kept her E-mail when she was kind enough to first

post to me.

> Louise

>

> Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes, then

when they get

> mad, they will be a mile away and barefoot -- Sue

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

---------

> ----

>

May 28, 2003

OH, my dear I am sorry if I was too quick in my speech..... My husband say's

and rightly so I talk and think later.(I've been working on that for almost

25 years with the help of my beloved gentle Ben like spouse-He is 6 foot

six) It was heaven to find a Doc who listened to How the pain started and

THEN said there was something he could start with. (the sympathetic nerve

block)I was told in 2000 to go home and get in a wheelchair by the

neurosurgeon because my back was such a mess.I have not and will not. What

you don't use you lose as you know. I did not have much-but I knew if I went

into the wheel-chair it would be the end for me. I walk with a cane. I just

want others to realize that Chronic pain is different and now they- the

silent suffering ones have some recourse.At your age I would do everything

to avoid pain meds also. I know how it is to want to have a successful

pregnacy with a wonderful outcome. A beautiful and healthy child.We went

throught the infertility horror show 20+ years ago-not much was available

and affordable- no insurance covered any treatments And we were talking 5000

dollars a menstrual cycle. In the 1980's that was eye popping money! They

could guarantee that I could get pregnant in a petri dish-but the odds of

having the pregnancy go to full term were not real well known back then and

not real good either... We adopted and our is 20 years old now and

everything a Mom and Dad could ask for.We wish you the joy for holding a

baby in your arms and knowing THAT is your child is awesome (as the kids

say)! Whatever way the stork comes for you. Look at Heidi and Jules- they

are rejoicing that they have been blessed with a pregnancy DESPITE the RA

demon. ... My words were too quick I'll gladly swallow some:) GULP GULP!

Have a pain fee day! Love......

Louise

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes, then when get mad,

they will be a mile away and barefoot -- Sue

Re: Chronic Pain

I am forwarding this to you because I very much want to clear up

this misunderstanding. I never intended for my comments to cause

such offense. It appears that I have hurt and offended you, and I

am very sorry that I have.

> Louise,

>

> I very much apologise if my comments were taken personally. I

had

> NOT intended that at all. My initial post thanked you, for your

> post, it does give me hope. I had not intended for my comments

> to perceived as a personal attack on you or anyone else, and

> certainly not in any way a comment on family histories. Alcohol

is

> the very least of my family's piss poor coping mechanisms.

>

> I had hoped that my comments made that clear. I apologise for

> the misunderstanding...

>

> I was expressing my very personal concerns in regards to opiate

> therapy. That is all, I had not intended to suggest that choices

I

> live with are the only correct answer

--- In , Louise Neustadter <RNLouise@c...>

wrote:

> Dear RA Support; I seemed to start a firestorm with my mentioning

that I had

> seen a pain specialist. After 10 years of chronic non stop PAIN I

had had

> it. I am 51 years old and the only way I am going to have a child

is if a

> star appears in the East. Yes there is a BIG difference between

dependence

> and addiction. If I am diabetic I am " dependent " on insulin. If I

am

> addicted- I would sell my sainted grandmother and myself on the

nearest

> street corner for that next high. and do anything to get the next

fix. If

> you are in such pain and for so long it is termed " Chronic pain. "

Lortab 1O

> does not make me " high " it just takes some of the pain away which

has been

> the monkey on my back for 10+ years. I have inoperable lumbar

stenosis,a

> congenital defect of the lumbar spine,arthritic spurs inside the

vertrbrae

> that are digging into my spinal cord.This has been causing my

right leg to

> give out on me un -expectedly. I do not dare try to walk great

> distances(like the supermarket) because I never know when it will

give out.I

> use the carts Walmart provides. Rheumatoid

> arhritis,osteoarthritis,osteoporosis,bilateral knee repacements,

Peripheral

> neuropathy,my hips need replacing next and I was told to NOT let

any surgeon

> operate on my spine because it SO bad as it is would collapse

like a house

> of cards.- Had I also mentioned that I had a sympathetic nerve

block which

> blocked out SOME of the pain but not all of the pain ( performed

by the pain

> specialist).. I sought the expertise of a pain specialist because

it is

> available to me and frankly it is MY business. Yes I DO have

family members

> who are addicts. They dealt with their problems in a negative

way.I am in

> " Chronic Pain " and there is a differnce if I was just having

a " bad day " . I

> do not think slugging down a quart of vodka a day like some of my

family do

> when they are having a " bad day " is especially positive. However,

as a former

> RN (from 1973-1998)I do not think you have the true handle on

addiction vs.

> dependence. issue. I am not going to every ER or pharmacy in town

to get 12

> scripts of Oxycontin filled.ly It would have been easier to

just to

> jack up the drugs but after taking Darvocet and Ultram I refused

to ask for

> ANYTHING stronger until I had sought out the pain specialist,

BECAUSE of my

> family history..... You are clubbing me with my family history and

My

> problem. I do not drink alcohol by choice AND because I take

> methotrexate>>>I do not and will not take medication unless it is

> prescribed. I too have seen people abuse the system. I am NOT one

of

> them..Mos tchronic pain patients are like me they want some sort

of LIFE

> back.This ONE Doc will be responsible for my pain meds ONLY and I

had to

> sign a legal agreement that went into my chart which meant we had

discussed

> and agreed to this. THAT was fine with me.(Since the Doc is

younger than me

> I don't think he is going to retire soon and/or drop dead. ) I go

to ONE

> pharmacy for my meds . I am sure and a could come up with

some

> articles to enlighten all of you on the matter. The study of Pain

management

> IS a speciality now-Thank God for me and others like me who have

suffered

> for years. ly lettng people suffer intractable pain is

barbaric. I am

> glad whatever floats your boat works for you and yours.But someday

YOU will

> be in the position I am in and I hope you find a board -certified

pain

> specialist to assist you. ly I would have sent it to

privately

> but I had not kept her E-mail when she was kind enough to first

post to me.

> Louise

>

> Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes, then

when they get

> mad, they will be a mile away and barefoot -- Sue

>

> -------------------------------------------------------------------

---------

> ----

>

May 28, 2003

I agree, a. I don't see this discussion as a problem. Louise,

, and anyone else: don't worry, this is OK. Maybe there were a

few misunderstandings here and there, but the use of narcotics to treat

nonmalignant chronic pain is a important and emotionally-loaded topic

that we must talk about and try to understand.

Everyone here has a unique set of life experiences and current

circumstances, so it is expected that we won't always see things the

very same way. That's fine. Sometimes the best learning and exchanges

occur in that setting. As long as there are no personal attacks

included, debate is a good thing.

Pain is the most common reason we see physicians, yet, as a group,

doctors are not very good at inquiring about pain, trying to quantify

it, treating it, and monitoring it. It's a crisis. So many people suffer

daily - and needlessly.

Treatment with opioids is not the only solution for chronic pain, but it

should not be automatically excluded from consideration. The typical

reasons doctors give for not using opioids ( " I don't prescribe pain

meds. " ) when they would be appropriate are quite lame.

Everyone should be aware of the possibility of addiction (and know that

it is not the same thing as physical dependence), but also realize that

it occurs very infrequently in those who take opioids long-term for the

treatment of cancer pain or chronic nonmalignant pain. Also,

interestingly enough, it is possible to treat those who have had

substance abuse problems in the past effectively and safely with

narcotics.

As others have said in various ways, there are many drugs that people

take on a daily basis, some of which they become dependent on

physically. We take them every day to feel good, to function well, even

to sustain life. Insulin, prednisone, thyroid replacement hormone,

antidepressants - why is it that taking these daily is OK, but wearing

a fentanyl patch, taking OxyContin, or hydrocodone every day isn't?

Why is it acceptable for doctors to allow patients to live in pain? Why

is it acceptable to allow yourself live in pain that could be treated?

Re: [ ] Chronic Pain

> Louise,

> I'm not sure if I'd call this discussion a firestorm. It is a much

needed

> discussion with so many misunderstandings that even the so called

experts

> don't get it. and I send in article after article that support

the use

> of narcotics in chronic pain. We've also sent in many articles that

> explain the difference between addiction and dependency. The tides

are

> turning and hopefully more doctors will learn that treating the pain

is more

> beneficial to the patient and that the risk of addiction is very low.

> Coming from an alcohol dependent family too, I was once afraid of pain

> medication and addiction. I've since learned that addiction doesn't

happen

> to those that use it for pain. I suffered needlessly for many years

because

> of the misconceptions about pain and narcotics. I believe that

secondary

> fibromyalgia is a result of untreated constant pain. There is much

research

> that has been done on untreated pain and the health problems

associated with

> it.

> In many cases such as yours, there is no treatment that can relieve

your

> pain and there is no choice but to manage the pain the best way they

can.

> I am very happy for you that you've found someone that takes pain

seriously

> and is treating it as it should be. We just have to keep hoping that

the

> misconceptions and fallacies will one day be dealt with. You deserve

to

> feel the best that you can with whatever the doctors have to offer.

> a

>

> > Dear RA Support; I seemed to start a firestorm with my mentioning

that I had

> > seen a pain specialist. After 10 years of chronic non stop PAIN I

had had

> > it. I am 51 years old and the only way I am going to have a child is

if a

> > star appears in the East. Yes there is a BIG difference between

dependence

> > and addiction. If I am diabetic I am " dependent " on insulin. If I am

> > addicted- I would sell my sainted grandmother and myself on the

nearest

> > street corner for that next high. and do anything to get the next

fix. If

> > you are in such pain and for so long it is termed " Chronic pain. "

Lortab 1O

> > does not make me " high " it just takes some of the pain away which

has been

> > the monkey on my back for 10+ years. I have inoperable lumbar

stenosis,a

> > congenital defect of the lumbar spine,arthritic spurs inside the

vertrbrae

> > that are digging into my spinal cord.This has been causing my right

leg to

> > give out on me un -expectedly. I do not dare try to walk great

> > distances(like the supermarket) because I never know when it will

give out.I

> > use the carts Walmart provides. Rheumatoid

> > arhritis,osteoarthritis,osteoporosis,bilateral knee repacements,

Peripheral

> > neuropathy,my hips need replacing next and I was told to NOT let any

surgeon

> > operate on my spine because it SO bad as it is would collapse like

a house

> > of cards.- Had I also mentioned that I had a sympathetic nerve block

which

> > blocked out SOME of the pain but not all of the pain ( performed by

the pain

> > specialist).. I sought the expertise of a pain specialist because it

is

> > available to me and frankly it is MY business. Yes I DO have family

members

> > who are addicts. They dealt with their problems in a negative way.I

am in

> > " Chronic Pain " and there is a differnce if I was just having a " bad

day " . I

> > do not think slugging down a quart of vodka a day like some of my

family do

> > when they are having a " bad day " is especially positive. However, as

a former

> > RN (from 1973-1998)I do not think you have the true handle on

addiction vs.

> > dependence. issue. I am not going to every ER or pharmacy in town to

get 12

> > scripts of Oxycontin filled.ly It would have been easier to

just to

> > jack up the drugs but after taking Darvocet and Ultram I refused to

ask for

> > ANYTHING stronger until I had sought out the pain specialist,

BECAUSE of my

> > family history..... You are clubbing me with my family history and

My

> > problem. I do not drink alcohol by choice AND because I take

> > methotrexate>>>I do not and will not take medication unless it is

> > prescribed. I too have seen people abuse the system. I am NOT one of

> > them..Mos tchronic pain patients are like me they want some sort of

LIFE

> > back.This ONE Doc will be responsible for my pain meds ONLY and I

had to

> > sign a legal agreement that went into my chart which meant we had

discussed

> > and agreed to this. THAT was fine with me.(Since the Doc is younger

than me

> > I don't think he is going to retire soon and/or drop dead. ) I go to

ONE

> > pharmacy for my meds . I am sure and a could come up with

some

> > articles to enlighten all of you on the matter. The study of Pain

management

> > IS a speciality now-Thank God for me and others like me who have

suffered

> > for years. ly lettng people suffer intractable pain is

barbaric. I am

> > glad whatever floats your boat works for you and yours.But someday

YOU will

> > be in the position I am in and I hope you find a board -certified

pain

> > specialist to assist you. ly I would have sent it to

privately

> > but I had not kept her E-mail when she was kind enough to first post

to me.

> > Louise

May 28, 2003

a and ...I agree, this open forum for discussing everyone's views allows

us the ability to

learn other's experiences and gives us a chance to understand different points

of view. That is

what we are all about! Very well said, . Iris

--- <Matsumura_Clan@...> wrote:

> I agree, a. I don't see this discussion as a problem. Louise,

> , and anyone else: don't worry, this is OK. Maybe there were a

> few misunderstandings here and there, but the use of narcotics to treat

> nonmalignant chronic pain is a important and emotionally-loaded topic

> that we must talk about and try to understand.

>

> Everyone here has a unique set of life experiences and current

> circumstances, so it is expected that we won't always see things the

> very same way. That's fine. Sometimes the best learning and exchanges

> occur in that setting. As long as there are no personal attacks

> included, debate is a good thing.

>

> Pain is the most common reason we see physicians, yet, as a group,

> doctors are not very good at inquiring about pain, trying to quantify

> it, treating it, and monitoring it. It's a crisis. So many people suffer

> daily - and needlessly.

>

> Treatment with opioids is not the only solution for chronic pain, but it

> should not be automatically excluded from consideration. The typical

> reasons doctors give for not using opioids ( " I don't prescribe pain

> meds. " ) when they would be appropriate are quite lame.

>

> Everyone should be aware of the possibility of addiction (and know that

> it is not the same thing as physical dependence), but also realize that

> it occurs very infrequently in those who take opioids long-term for the

> treatment of cancer pain or chronic nonmalignant pain. Also,

> interestingly enough, it is possible to treat those who have had

> substance abuse problems in the past effectively and safely with

> narcotics.

>

> As others have said in various ways, there are many drugs that people

> take on a daily basis, some of which they become dependent on

> physically. We take them every day to feel good, to function well, even

> to sustain life. Insulin, prednisone, thyroid replacement hormone,

> antidepressants - why is it that taking these daily is OK, but wearing

> a fentanyl patch, taking OxyContin, or hydrocodone every day isn't?

>

> Why is it acceptable for doctors to allow patients to live in pain? Why

> is it acceptable to allow yourself live in pain that could be treated?

>

> Re: [ ] Chronic Pain

>

> > Louise,

> > I'm not sure if I'd call this discussion a firestorm. It is a much

> needed

> > discussion with so many misunderstandings that even the so called

> experts

> > don't get it. and I send in article after article that support

> the use

> > of narcotics in chronic pain. We've also sent in many articles that

> > explain the difference between addiction and dependency. The tides

> are

> > turning and hopefully more doctors will learn that treating the pain

> is more

> > beneficial to the patient and that the risk of addiction is very low.

> > Coming from an alcohol dependent family too, I was once afraid of pain

> > medication and addiction. I've since learned that addiction doesn't

> happen

> > to those that use it for pain. I suffered needlessly for many years

> because

> > of the misconceptions about pain and narcotics. I believe that

> secondary

> > fibromyalgia is a result of untreated constant pain. There is much

> research

> > that has been done on untreated pain and the health problems

> associated with

> > it.

> > In many cases such as yours, there is no treatment that can relieve

> your

> > pain and there is no choice but to manage the pain the best way they

> can.

> > I am very happy for you that you've found someone that takes pain

> seriously

> > and is treating it as it should be. We just have to keep hoping that

> the

> > misconceptions and fallacies will one day be dealt with. You deserve

> to

> > feel the best that you can with whatever the doctors have to offer.

> > a

> >

> > > Dear RA Support; I seemed to start a firestorm with my mentioning

> that I had

> > > seen a pain specialist. After 10 years of chronic non stop PAIN I

> had had

> > > it. I am 51 years old and the only way I am going to have a child is

> if a

> > > star appears in the East. Yes there is a BIG difference between

> dependence

> > > and addiction. If I am diabetic I am " dependent " on insulin. If I am

> > > addicted- I would sell my sainted grandmother and myself on the

> nearest

> > > street corner for that next high. and do anything to get the next

> fix. If

> > > you are in such pain and for so long it is termed " Chronic pain. "

> Lortab 1O

> > > does not make me " high " it just takes some of the pain away which

> has been

> > > the monkey on my back for 10+ years. I have inoperable lumbar

> stenosis,a

> > > congenital defect of the lumbar spine,arthritic spurs inside the

> vertrbrae

> > > that are digging into my spinal cord.This has been causing my right

> leg to

> > > give out on me un -expectedly. I do not dare try to walk great

> > > distances(like the supermarket) because I never know when it will

> give out.I

> > > use the carts Walmart provides. Rheumatoid

> > > arhritis,osteoarthritis,osteoporosis,bilateral knee repacements,

> Peripheral

> > > neuropathy,my hips need replacing next and I was told to NOT let any

> surgeon

> > > operate on my spine because it SO bad as it is would collapse like

> a house

> > > of cards.- Had I also mentioned that I had a sympathetic nerve block

> which

> > > blocked out SOME of the pain but not all of the pain ( performed by

> the pain

> > > specialist).. I sought the expertise of a pain specialist because it

> is

> > > available to me and frankly it is MY business. Yes I DO have family

> members

> > > who are addicts. They dealt with their problems in a negative way.I

> am in

> > > " Chronic Pain " and there is a differnce if I was just having a " bad

> day " . I

> > > do not think slugging down a quart of vodka a day like some of my

> family do

> > > when they are having a " bad day " is especially positive. However, as

> a former

> > > RN (from 1973-1998)I do not think you have the true handle on

> addiction vs.

> > > dependence. issue. I am not going to every ER or pharmacy in town to

> get 12

> > > scripts of Oxycontin filled.ly It would have been easier to

> just to

> > > jack up the drugs but after taking Darvocet and Ultram I refused to

> ask for

> > > ANYTHING stronger until I had sought out the pain specialist,

> BECAUSE of my

> > > family history..... You are clubbing me with my family history and

> My

> > > problem. I do not drink alcohol by choice AND because I take

> > > methotrexate>>>I do not and will not take medication unless it is

> > > prescribed. I too have seen people abuse the system. I am NOT one of

> > > them..Mos tchronic pain patients are like me they want some sort of

> LIFE

> > > back.This ONE Doc will be responsible for my pain meds ONLY and I

> had to

> > > sign a legal agreement that went into my chart which meant we had

> discussed

> > > and agreed to this. THAT was fine with me.(Since the Doc is younger

> than me

> > > I don't think he is going to retire soon and/or drop dead. ) I go to

> ONE

> > > pharmacy for my meds . I am sure and a could come up with

> some

> > > articles to enlighten all of you on the matter. The study of Pain

> management

> > > IS a speciality now-Thank God for me and others like me who have

> suffered

> > > for years. ly lettng people suffer intractable pain is

> barbaric. I am

> > > glad whatever floats your boat works for you and yours.But someday

> YOU will

> > > be in the position I am in and I hope you find a board -certified

> pain

> > > specialist to assist you. ly I would have sent it to

> privately

> > > but I had not kept her E-mail when she was kind enough to first post

> to me.

> > > Louise

>

May 29, 2003

Dearest Louise,

You've been such a sweet source of support to many of us in the past, and

please know that my support is with you one hundred percent right now. I

know that you have tried not to take the stronger medications, and that you

have wrestled with this decision. I went through the same thing last

January and decided on a long acting medication with percocet for

breakthrough pain, with the help of my compassionate doctor. He said the

same thing you do, almost verbatim, about my not feeling guilty if I were a

diabetic in taking insulin and that if the medication gives me back some

sort of quality of life, then it is well worth it. And I have actually cut

out the long acting pain med (MS-Contin) during periods when I'm feeling

good, and only use it during flares. And I've cut back Percocet and gone to

Lortab for the vast majority of my breakthrough pain. It's nice to have a

doctor who is willing to manage my pain, but I want to be careful. I have

addiction in my family as well. I had a situation where I wondered if I was

addicted to a medication given to me for seizures (Klonipin) and it took a

lot for me to consent to taking these powerful medications. But they have

given me my life back, without a doubt. I don't know what I would do

without them, which scares me too. But I'm in Atlanta right now, taking

care of my mom after her knee and hip replacement two weeks ago. I've been

here for almost three weeks, and if I didn't have medication there is no way

I could have stayed in the hospital with her for three days straight, and

could do all the bending and lifting I'm doing for her right now.

If I had insurance I would seek out a pain specialist to handle my pain, but

my husband decided to self-insure and I have to keep the cost down. I've

been told my two rheumatologists (mine and one from a clinical trial) that

I have moderate to severe RA, and I'm grateful for periods of time where my

pain is controlled. My rheumy said that he would like to do xrays and see

about hip replacements, but since I don't have insurance there is no use.

After seeing how easy the surgery has gone for my mom, I am going to discuss

the insurance issue again with my husband when I get home or apply for

disability. It will still take time, but at least at some point I might get

relief. I could substantially reduce my medication if my hips were better.

The hips are my worst problem, and I can't stand for very long.

Please know that we love you and support you here and let us know how things

go.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Big hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Carol

[ ] Chronic Pain

Dear RA Support; I seemed to start a firestorm with my mentioning that I had

seen a pain specialist. After 10 years of chronic non stop PAIN I had had

it. I am 51 years old and the only way I am going to have a child is if a

star appears in the East. Yes there is a BIG difference between dependence

and addiction. If I am diabetic I am " dependent " on insulin. If I am

addicted- I would sell my sainted grandmother and myself on the nearest

street corner for that next high. and do anything to get the next fix. If

you are in such pain and for so long it is termed " Chronic pain. " Lortab 1O

does not make me " high " it just takes some of the pain away which has been

the monkey on my back for 10+ years. I have inoperable lumbar stenosis,a

congenital defect of the lumbar spine,arthritic spurs inside the vertrbrae

that are digging into my spinal cord.This has been causing my right leg to

give out on me un -expectedly. I do not dare try to walk great

distances(like the supermarket) because I never know when it will give out.I

use the carts Walmart provides. Rheumatoid

arhritis,osteoarthritis,osteoporosis,bilateral knee repacements, Peripheral

neuropathy,my hips need replacing next and I was told to NOT let any surgeon

operate on my spine because it SO bad as it is would collapse like a house

of cards.- Had I also mentioned that I had a sympathetic nerve block which

blocked out SOME of the pain but not all of the pain ( performed by the pain

specialist).. I sought the expertise of a pain specialist because it is

available to me and frankly it is MY business. Yes I DO have family members

who are addicts. They dealt with their problems in a negative way.I am in

" Chronic Pain " and there is a differnce if I was just having a " bad day " . I

do not think slugging down a quart of vodka a day like some of my family do

when they are having a " bad day " is especially positive. However, as a former

RN (from 1973-1998)I do not think you have the true handle on addiction vs.

dependence. issue. I am not going to every ER or pharmacy in town to get 12

scripts of Oxycontin filled.ly It would have been easier to just to

jack up the drugs but after taking Darvocet and Ultram I refused to ask for

ANYTHING stronger until I had sought out the pain specialist, BECAUSE of my

family history..... You are clubbing me with my family history and My

problem. I do not drink alcohol by choice AND because I take

methotrexate>>>I do not and will not take medication unless it is

prescribed. I too have seen people abuse the system. I am NOT one of

them..Mos tchronic pain patients are like me they want some sort of LIFE

back.This ONE Doc will be responsible for my pain meds ONLY and I had to

sign a legal agreement that went into my chart which meant we had discussed

and agreed to this. THAT was fine with me.(Since the Doc is younger than me

I don't think he is going to retire soon and/or drop dead. ) I go to ONE

pharmacy for my meds . I am sure and a could come up with some

articles to enlighten all of you on the matter. The study of Pain management

IS a speciality now-Thank God for me and others like me who have suffered

for years. ly lettng people suffer intractable pain is barbaric. I am

glad whatever floats your boat works for you and yours.But someday YOU will

be in the position I am in and I hope you find a board -certified pain

specialist to assist you. ly I would have sent it to privately

but I had not kept her E-mail when she was kind enough to first post to me.

Louise

Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes, then when they get

mad, they will be a mile away and barefoot -- Sue

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----

May 29, 2003

Well said, !

Love,