Re: What is the Matter With People?

[Guest guest]

>

> I said:

>

> " Ever seen a male gym instructor comment on a high school girl's

> developing breasts in a coed swimming class? I have. The girl

narking

> on him did no good. Even the female instructors took his side

because

> they thought she was a " prom queen. "

>

> And just wanted to add that the reason I didn't tell was because

> when some other kid (I was a student in high school at the time)

DID

> threaten to tell on him, the teacher said he'd either get the jocks

> to " pants " his swim trunks for him in front of the girls, or else

> hr'd see to it that the other teachers he knew would give him

> nothing but 'F's for the rest of his high school career.

>

> " And that goes for the girls too " he said.

>

> Not wanting to lose my swim trunks in front of the girls, and

> valuing my grade point average over the self-esteem of this poor

> girl, I regretably kept my mouth shut...as did the rest of the boys

> and girls in class.

>

> All thirty of them or so.

>

> So that is how stuff like this happens.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

Okay now dueling experiences...

I had an 8th grade science teach pull out girls panties and bra and

ask the female students in class who did these belong to? Ask if the

size fitted anyone .... We went to the principals office in horrific

embarassment.. I had a 5th grade teach harrass and abused me because

I was in Catholic school the year before and she hated catholic and

told me my soul would go to hell.. she bought in her minister and

forced religious classes on us in a public school... it was the most

horrible time of my life.. to this day I am against prayer in public

school and will go to my death fighting it from that experience. I

saw two boys being hit by a male coach and one was dragged to the

hallway with the coach telling everyone the boys were having

some " fudge pie " in teh boys shower room.. the boys were

humilitate... Man I have stories that go on and on and on from sexual

abuse by a HS counselor on a fellow student working with me in the

office to physical abuse, drunk teachers yelling at us... there are

injustices and you fight them but not by acting like hoolegans ones

self and hitting and scratching teachers for no reason except to

throw a tantrum. I have been beaten in Catholic school, shaken, kept

so long after school adn not allowed to go to the bathrooom that I

peed in my pants at 6 yrs of age... My OBgyn said my bladder is huge

and asked me if I went to Catholic school because he notcies a

pattern... bladders expand when children have to hold it a long

time... I have a huge bladder. This is only a drop of what has

happened to me, my husband and daughter, in private schools and

public schools... but I will NOT nor will my husband or daugther <

who graduate BTW in 2000 > not act like the very hooligans you

describe as violent unless its self defense. There is no excuse.

One fights through hearings, courts etc... If the school is lousy ,

move the child.... I begged my mother to take me out of public

school..she was very worried.. then the next year I got the best

teacher in the world who knew of the problem. My mom took it to the

principal... that teach teated me fairly and turned out to be one of

the best teachers I ever had... Also my mom, when my brother was in

HS was sexually approached by a principal. She was outraged...

Life happens.. you fight it the right way... not by saying its right

for kids to hit kick scream just because they are afraid.. I

disagree. I was afraid many times and my daughter and my husband and

my many cousins.. but we don't use violence for there use of it..

that makes one no better than those who abuse.. and in all honesty I

would not have any teach my daughter or be her guardian if they

approved of that approach.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I said:

>

> " Ever seen a male gym instructor comment on a high school girl's

> developing breasts in a coed swimming class? I have. The girl

narking

> on him did no good. Even the female instructors took his side

because

> they thought she was a " prom queen. "

>

> And just wanted to add that the reason I didn't tell was because

> when some other kid (I was a student in high school at the time)

DID

> threaten to tell on him, the teacher said he'd either get the jocks

> to " pants " his swim trunks for him in front of the girls, or else

> hr'd see to it that the other teachers he knew would give him

> nothing but 'F's for the rest of his high school career.

>

> " And that goes for the girls too " he said.

>

> Not wanting to lose my swim trunks in front of the girls, and

> valuing my grade point average over the self-esteem of this poor

> girl, I regretably kept my mouth shut...as did the rest of the boys

> and girls in class.

>

> All thirty of them or so.

>

> So that is how stuff like this happens.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

Okay now dueling experiences...

I had an 8th grade science teach pull out girls panties and bra and

ask the female students in class who did these belong to? Ask if the

size fitted anyone .... We went to the principals office in horrific

embarassment.. I had a 5th grade teach harrass and abused me because

I was in Catholic school the year before and she hated catholic and

told me my soul would go to hell.. she bought in her minister and

forced religious classes on us in a public school... it was the most

horrible time of my life.. to this day I am against prayer in public

school and will go to my death fighting it from that experience. I

saw two boys being hit by a male coach and one was dragged to the

hallway with the coach telling everyone the boys were having

some " fudge pie " in teh boys shower room.. the boys were

humilitate... Man I have stories that go on and on and on from sexual

abuse by a HS counselor on a fellow student working with me in the

office to physical abuse, drunk teachers yelling at us... there are

injustices and you fight them but not by acting like hoolegans ones

self and hitting and scratching teachers for no reason except to

throw a tantrum. I have been beaten in Catholic school, shaken, kept

so long after school adn not allowed to go to the bathrooom that I

peed in my pants at 6 yrs of age... My OBgyn said my bladder is huge

and asked me if I went to Catholic school because he notcies a

pattern... bladders expand when children have to hold it a long

time... I have a huge bladder. This is only a drop of what has

happened to me, my husband and daughter, in private schools and

public schools... but I will NOT nor will my husband or daugther <

who graduate BTW in 2000 > not act like the very hooligans you

describe as violent unless its self defense. There is no excuse.

One fights through hearings, courts etc... If the school is lousy ,

move the child.... I begged my mother to take me out of public

school..she was very worried.. then the next year I got the best

teacher in the world who knew of the problem. My mom took it to the

principal... that teach teated me fairly and turned out to be one of

the best teachers I ever had... Also my mom, when my brother was in

HS was sexually approached by a principal. She was outraged...

Life happens.. you fight it the right way... not by saying its right

for kids to hit kick scream just because they are afraid.. I

disagree. I was afraid many times and my daughter and my husband and

my many cousins.. but we don't use violence for there use of it..

that makes one no better than those who abuse.. and in all honesty I

would not have any teach my daughter or be her guardian if they

approved of that approach.

>

[Guest guest]

Tom we don't know who the bully is in that report.. not enough to

make that judgement... that is my point. There are two sides to every

story until we have all the facts.

Tom I alwasy fought back if I was assaulted, unless it was a gang or

had weapons... My husband was a pacifist.. and told our daughter what

your mother told you... I was upset because I knew bullies would be

at school. Our daughter was targeted as a bully as was the daughter

of friends of ours who did the same iwth their daughter... our

daughter was distressed began to have psychological and physical

problems from the taunting..we took her to a child psychologist and

he told my husband FLAT... she feels helpless... This does not mean

attacking anyone anytime you are just " Afraid " ... So we took his

advice which was mine actually from the begining.. and my husband had

pillow fights iwth our daughter to teach her to be assertive... I

cannot tell you how that helped our daughter.. .then I taughter her

more fighting techniques...she took dance.. and we wrestled and

fought around the house so she could empower herself in an actual

physical attack...It worked by the first grade she handled with two

other little first grade girsl those 2nd grade bully boys.. she was

NOT afraid to get hit and she HIT back hard and help save the little

boy.. I cannnot tell you how many parents came to me to tell my how

they love my daughter for being a good friend to other children. I

can also tell how how many parents were not worthy nor good parents.

It was a lesson well learned to my husband that children need to feel

empowered so at the right time, their wits are about them and they

will know when they use self defense.. my daughter took kick boxing

in college and does not fear an equal matched opponent today... as

for bullies... I look to the home.... I can see them to this day in

teh neighborhood in the making and I can tell you it comes from the

home. My cousin was bullied by his sibling and I saw it as a kid..

he and talked about it... He asked me if his brothers ever attacked

me.. I said yes and their face ended up in the mud crying uncle... I

never hit anyone unless they hit me or someone smaller first who was

an innocent victim.. My problem is I became a rescuer type and I had

to get away from always saving victims of bullies.

>

> " My statement was called for and needs to be called for more often.

> Hysterical violent parents and guardians often encourage such

> behavior in their children. if one can't right , then be wrong in a

> loud voice. Perhaps the teachers and support staff are right.. I

> only volunteered and saw all this as a volunteer mom, and as student

> myself. I don't like violent bullies from staff , students or

parents

> and will call them on it...No matter who they are. I am not nor will

> ever be afraid of bullies nor have my opinions changed by bullies.

> Bullying begins in the home, spreads to the neighborhood, and then

to

> the school. I have seen the cycle. "

>

> Yes, but the question is, are you mis-identifying the bully?

> Sometimes we judge a situation by what we see, not by what hasn't

> been seen.

>

> I was personally bullied as a kid, and rarely fought back because

my

> mom told me that Christian boys shouldn't fight, even if provoked.

> But one day I hit a bully back.

>

> Wouldn't you know it? The Vice Principal had glanced casually out

> the window at me and saw me hit the fellow who had just hit me in

> the stomach more than a dozen times.

>

> I got three detentions from that. The bully got nothing, and after

> each detention the bully and his friends caught me and beat me up.

>

> It wasn't until a gym teacher cottoned on to this and gave me free

> license to fight back that I was able to get them off my back.

>

> So in this case, the Vice Principal was wrong in his perceptions

> that I was the bully, and the gym teacher rightly identified the

> bully and allowed me to defend myself.

>

> Personally, I feel that the gym teacher's approach is the correct

> way to handle the problem.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

Tom we don't know who the bully is in that report.. not enough to

make that judgement... that is my point. There are two sides to every

story until we have all the facts.

Tom I alwasy fought back if I was assaulted, unless it was a gang or

had weapons... My husband was a pacifist.. and told our daughter what

your mother told you... I was upset because I knew bullies would be

at school. Our daughter was targeted as a bully as was the daughter

of friends of ours who did the same iwth their daughter... our

daughter was distressed began to have psychological and physical

problems from the taunting..we took her to a child psychologist and

he told my husband FLAT... she feels helpless... This does not mean

attacking anyone anytime you are just " Afraid " ... So we took his

advice which was mine actually from the begining.. and my husband had

pillow fights iwth our daughter to teach her to be assertive... I

cannot tell you how that helped our daughter.. .then I taughter her

more fighting techniques...she took dance.. and we wrestled and

fought around the house so she could empower herself in an actual

physical attack...It worked by the first grade she handled with two

other little first grade girsl those 2nd grade bully boys.. she was

NOT afraid to get hit and she HIT back hard and help save the little

boy.. I cannnot tell you how many parents came to me to tell my how

they love my daughter for being a good friend to other children. I

can also tell how how many parents were not worthy nor good parents.

It was a lesson well learned to my husband that children need to feel

empowered so at the right time, their wits are about them and they

will know when they use self defense.. my daughter took kick boxing

in college and does not fear an equal matched opponent today... as

for bullies... I look to the home.... I can see them to this day in

teh neighborhood in the making and I can tell you it comes from the

home. My cousin was bullied by his sibling and I saw it as a kid..

he and talked about it... He asked me if his brothers ever attacked

me.. I said yes and their face ended up in the mud crying uncle... I

never hit anyone unless they hit me or someone smaller first who was

an innocent victim.. My problem is I became a rescuer type and I had

to get away from always saving victims of bullies.

>

> " My statement was called for and needs to be called for more often.

> Hysterical violent parents and guardians often encourage such

> behavior in their children. if one can't right , then be wrong in a

> loud voice. Perhaps the teachers and support staff are right.. I

> only volunteered and saw all this as a volunteer mom, and as student

> myself. I don't like violent bullies from staff , students or

parents

> and will call them on it...No matter who they are. I am not nor will

> ever be afraid of bullies nor have my opinions changed by bullies.

> Bullying begins in the home, spreads to the neighborhood, and then

to

> the school. I have seen the cycle. "

>

> Yes, but the question is, are you mis-identifying the bully?

> Sometimes we judge a situation by what we see, not by what hasn't

> been seen.

>

> I was personally bullied as a kid, and rarely fought back because

my

> mom told me that Christian boys shouldn't fight, even if provoked.

> But one day I hit a bully back.

>

> Wouldn't you know it? The Vice Principal had glanced casually out

> the window at me and saw me hit the fellow who had just hit me in

> the stomach more than a dozen times.

>

> I got three detentions from that. The bully got nothing, and after

> each detention the bully and his friends caught me and beat me up.

>

> It wasn't until a gym teacher cottoned on to this and gave me free

> license to fight back that I was able to get them off my back.

>

> So in this case, the Vice Principal was wrong in his perceptions

> that I was the bully, and the gym teacher rightly identified the

> bully and allowed me to defend myself.

>

> Personally, I feel that the gym teacher's approach is the correct

> way to handle the problem.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

as for forcibly confine and charged.... The police were right. If one

does not obey the laws and attack others with no justification, they

will be confined and charged... If that little girl hit my daughter

during her wild rampage..I would insist on the charges and the

confinement to the police station. We have no idea what the facts were,

why the child acted like she did.. Being afraid is NOT enough. I would

look to the home as well as the school. There are not enough facts in

teh report to make up all these opinions about police school or

parents.... or the child...

[Guest guest]

Raven you said you have a child with aspergers, do you have aspergers

too?

>

> , there's no talking with you. You want me to believe that

you

> know everything and that it's obvious the child in question is

being

> poorly parented. You are comparing schooling from 50 years ago to

> schooling nowadays. You are comparing being a parent of a school

aged

> child (in the 70s and 80s perhaps) to schooling now (20 to 30 years

> later). You are making the same sorts of rude assumptions that I

have

> seen made often over the years and thinking that you are right and

all

> children should just suck it up when they are abused.

>

> So, since there's no talking with you, I won't talk with you. I

will

> no longer respond to your inappropriate, generalized posts that

have no

> foundation in fact but plenty of discriminatory conjecture.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks .. I agree

>

> Ok. I was excited when I signed on and saw all these posts and after

reading

> the first one or two I was going to respond with some of the things

that

> have happened at my mother's school.

>

> However, this has gotten far too heated, so this thread is closed.

>

>

>

>

>

> ************************************** See what's free at

http://www.aol.com.

>

[Guest guest]

" No. She will most likely be afraid to be herself for the rest of

her life because things this big that happen early in life tend to

stay with the child the rest of his/her life and to shape how the

child interacts with the world as a child, as a teen and as an adult. "

I learnt from a young age that my emotions and how I felt about

things did not matter. It was detrimental to show any emotion or let

people know how I felt - so I rarely showed any emotions and then I

get accused of being 'cold and emotionless' just because I can

contain my emotions for the most - basically can't win.

Now I have gotten older I realise what went wrong - I was meant to

use a display of emotion to be socially manipulative like

the 'normal' socially adept children did - however I never 'got it'

as a child and now as an adult I am pleased that I am not what is

considered 'normal'

" Nothing is wrong with them. I feel the police

handled

> the situation fine. The last time I saw this happening with a child

on

> tv... It was videoed. the girl was out of control because the mother

> lacked parenting skills and encouraged such behavior.... Nothing

wrong

> with handcuffs if the child is kicking and scratching out of a

tantrum..

> If the child was scared of handcuffs because of her behavior.. then

she

> learned.. you cannot act like that . I suspect the mother is not a

very

> good mother IMHO and the mother needs some parenting classes. "

>

> Really? Perhaps you'll change your mind when you read the POLICE

REPORT

> and see the CHARGES that were laid against this child.

>

> Here's how SCARY DANGEROUS this little 6 year old was according to

> witnesses and the police. I have taken the time to type out the

police

> report (I have a jpg of the report and transcribed it directly).

The

> bolding and colouring are mine.

>

> POLICE REPORT

>

> On the above date and time I responded to the Avon Elementary

School at

> 705 W Winthrop Street, Avon Park, 33625 for a disruptive student,

> Desre's . was upset and crying and wailing and would

not

> leave the classroom to let them study causing a disruption of the

normal

> class activities.

>

> Ms. Elder was called to remove her from the classroom, at which she

> began to hit and kick Ms. Elder. She had to be carried to the front

> office at which time she continued to wail and cry and refused to

> communicate in anyway or to calm down.

>

> When I arrived was still carrying on and would not calm down.

> When I approached her she crawled under the table, at which I had to

> crawl and get her and she began to try to pull her legs away to try

to

> get away from me.

>

> When I finally got her clear she began to pull and try to run away

from

> me. I tried several times to get her to calm down and she began to

wail

> louder. I placed her in handcuffs to keep her from hitting and she

still

> kept trying to get away.

>

> Upon placing her into the back of the police vehicle she kept

unbuckling

> and trying to get out by placing her foot in the doorway to prevent

it

> from closing.

>

> I had to have Officer ride in the back with her to the

> police department. The parent was still unreachable. She was

transported

> to the Highlands County Jail.

>

> Hmmmmm, sounds like a normal reaction from a very scared little

girl.

> It certainly doesn't sound like anything that warrants police

> involvement at all.

>

> And what are the charges against this SCARY DANGEROUS child? Let me

> tell you, they certainly threw the book at her.

>

> THE CHARGES

>

> 1. Disruption of School Function 877.13(1a) Misdemeanor 2

> 2. Battery on School Employee 784.081 Felony 3

> 3. Resisting without Violence 843-02 Misdemeanor 1

>

> Holy moley! She was charged for Resisting without Violence because

she

> reacted like any 6 year old scared out of her wits? Come on! And

> charged with Disruption of School Function because she was acting

out in

> class like any 6 year old does from time to time? Battery on a

School

> Employee because she wanted to be heard instead of treated like a

lesser

> being?

>

> Did this Ms. Elder get charged with Forcible Confinement? How about

> Assault on a Minor?

>

> And you know those witnesses (because every Police Report needs

> witnesses for charges to be laid) who gave their names so the

> Prosecuting Attorney has people to call on to recount the events of

that

> day at school when the SCARY DANGEROUS 6 year old attacked? They

are 28

> years old, 38 years old and 44 years old. We're not talking about

> people who are near retirement age; we're talking adults who are in

> their prime for the most part ... people who could certainly take

care

> of a 6 year old in an appropriate fashion rather than resorting to

this

> sort of emotional and psychological abuse.

>

> Does anyone really think that this little girl will ever be able to

> attend school without being terrified that someone will have her

charged

> for reacting in a way that is age appropriate? No. She will most

> likely be afraid to be herself for the rest of her life because

things

> this big that happen early in life tend to stay with the child the

rest

> of his/her life and to shape how the child interacts with the world

as a

> child, as a teen and as an adult.

>

> Nice work there, Avon Elementary School in Highlands County,

Florida!

> <extreme sarcasm>

>

> Raven

> Co-Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

" No. She will most likely be afraid to be herself for the rest of

her life because things this big that happen early in life tend to

stay with the child the rest of his/her life and to shape how the

child interacts with the world as a child, as a teen and as an adult. "

I learnt from a young age that my emotions and how I felt about

things did not matter. It was detrimental to show any emotion or let

people know how I felt - so I rarely showed any emotions and then I

get accused of being 'cold and emotionless' just because I can

contain my emotions for the most - basically can't win.

Now I have gotten older I realise what went wrong - I was meant to

use a display of emotion to be socially manipulative like

the 'normal' socially adept children did - however I never 'got it'

as a child and now as an adult I am pleased that I am not what is

considered 'normal'

" Nothing is wrong with them. I feel the police

handled

> the situation fine. The last time I saw this happening with a child

on

> tv... It was videoed. the girl was out of control because the mother

> lacked parenting skills and encouraged such behavior.... Nothing

wrong

> with handcuffs if the child is kicking and scratching out of a

tantrum..

> If the child was scared of handcuffs because of her behavior.. then

she

> learned.. you cannot act like that . I suspect the mother is not a

very

> good mother IMHO and the mother needs some parenting classes. "

>

> Really? Perhaps you'll change your mind when you read the POLICE

REPORT

> and see the CHARGES that were laid against this child.

>

> Here's how SCARY DANGEROUS this little 6 year old was according to

> witnesses and the police. I have taken the time to type out the

police

> report (I have a jpg of the report and transcribed it directly).

The

> bolding and colouring are mine.

>

> POLICE REPORT

>

> On the above date and time I responded to the Avon Elementary

School at

> 705 W Winthrop Street, Avon Park, 33625 for a disruptive student,

> Desre's . was upset and crying and wailing and would

not

> leave the classroom to let them study causing a disruption of the

normal

> class activities.

>

> Ms. Elder was called to remove her from the classroom, at which she

> began to hit and kick Ms. Elder. She had to be carried to the front

> office at which time she continued to wail and cry and refused to

> communicate in anyway or to calm down.

>

> When I arrived was still carrying on and would not calm down.

> When I approached her she crawled under the table, at which I had to

> crawl and get her and she began to try to pull her legs away to try

to

> get away from me.

>

> When I finally got her clear she began to pull and try to run away

from

> me. I tried several times to get her to calm down and she began to

wail

> louder. I placed her in handcuffs to keep her from hitting and she

still

> kept trying to get away.

>

> Upon placing her into the back of the police vehicle she kept

unbuckling

> and trying to get out by placing her foot in the doorway to prevent

it

> from closing.

>

> I had to have Officer ride in the back with her to the

> police department. The parent was still unreachable. She was

transported

> to the Highlands County Jail.

>

> Hmmmmm, sounds like a normal reaction from a very scared little

girl.

> It certainly doesn't sound like anything that warrants police

> involvement at all.

>

> And what are the charges against this SCARY DANGEROUS child? Let me

> tell you, they certainly threw the book at her.

>

> THE CHARGES

>

> 1. Disruption of School Function 877.13(1a) Misdemeanor 2

> 2. Battery on School Employee 784.081 Felony 3

> 3. Resisting without Violence 843-02 Misdemeanor 1

>

> Holy moley! She was charged for Resisting without Violence because

she

> reacted like any 6 year old scared out of her wits? Come on! And

> charged with Disruption of School Function because she was acting

out in

> class like any 6 year old does from time to time? Battery on a

School

> Employee because she wanted to be heard instead of treated like a

lesser

> being?

>

> Did this Ms. Elder get charged with Forcible Confinement? How about

> Assault on a Minor?

>

> And you know those witnesses (because every Police Report needs

> witnesses for charges to be laid) who gave their names so the

> Prosecuting Attorney has people to call on to recount the events of

that

> day at school when the SCARY DANGEROUS 6 year old attacked? They

are 28

> years old, 38 years old and 44 years old. We're not talking about

> people who are near retirement age; we're talking adults who are in

> their prime for the most part ... people who could certainly take

care

> of a 6 year old in an appropriate fashion rather than resorting to

this

> sort of emotional and psychological abuse.

>

> Does anyone really think that this little girl will ever be able to

> attend school without being terrified that someone will have her

charged

> for reacting in a way that is age appropriate? No. She will most

> likely be afraid to be herself for the rest of her life because

things

> this big that happen early in life tend to stay with the child the

rest

> of his/her life and to shape how the child interacts with the world

as a

> child, as a teen and as an adult.

>

> Nice work there, Avon Elementary School in Highlands County,

Florida!

> <extreme sarcasm>

>

> Raven

> Co-Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

I am aware that there are many bad parents out there, that just don't

care - however it would be wrong to assume that every child that 'acts

out' is a product of bad parenting - things are not always that simple

and assumptions can cause a lot of problems and no solutions.

What worries me most about this particular story is that no one seemed

to care that the child was obviously in distress and upset- did anyone

try to comfort her?, also perhaps it would have been better to have

called the girls mother rather than the police?

>

> Nothing is wrong with them. I feel the police handled the situation

> fine. The last time I saw this happening with a child on tv... It

> was videoed. the girl was out of control because the mother lacked

> parenting skills and encouraged such behavior.... Nothing wrong with

> handcuffs if the child is kicking and scratching out of a tantrum..

> If the child was scared of handcuffs because of her behavior.. then

> she learned.. you cannot act like that . I suspect the mother is not

> a very good mother IMHO and the mother needs some parenting classes.

>

[Guest guest]

I am aware that there are many bad parents out there, that just don't

care - however it would be wrong to assume that every child that 'acts

out' is a product of bad parenting - things are not always that simple

and assumptions can cause a lot of problems and no solutions.

What worries me most about this particular story is that no one seemed

to care that the child was obviously in distress and upset- did anyone

try to comfort her?, also perhaps it would have been better to have

called the girls mother rather than the police?

>

> Nothing is wrong with them. I feel the police handled the situation

> fine. The last time I saw this happening with a child on tv... It

> was videoed. the girl was out of control because the mother lacked

> parenting skills and encouraged such behavior.... Nothing wrong with

> handcuffs if the child is kicking and scratching out of a tantrum..

> If the child was scared of handcuffs because of her behavior.. then

> she learned.. you cannot act like that . I suspect the mother is not

> a very good mother IMHO and the mother needs some parenting classes.

>

[Guest guest]

" That was NOT repeat NOT a normal reaction from a very scared little

girl. That was a reaction from an out of control child who grew up in

a home thinking this is how to behave. I think the need to have

social services to check into the child's homelife. "

Although I am not aware of all the facts of this particular story

(like who here is?) I have to disagree with your assumption that this

was the 'reaction from an out of control child who grew up in

a home thinking this is how to behave'. Do you know this for certain?

As for so called 'normal' I understand that many children on the

spectrum (and we do not know whether this girl has any disabilies)

have difficulties dealing with thier emotions - crawling under a desk

as this girl did is a clear indication of wanting to escape, being

scared basically.

When my son was younger he used to go under tables, desks etc when he

felt scared and threatened - as did I - another escape strategy my

son sometimes uses when feeling the need to escape is climbing as did

I when I was younger. Do I think doing such things are appropriate? -

no not really that is why I found other coping strategies for my son,

such as 'time outs', not being locked in rooms btw, but somewhere

quiet he can go to calm down - classical music also helps.

Also some children that have communication problems (and I don't know

whether this child has and I don't like to assume) can sometimes 'act

out' due to the frustration of not being able to communicate

effectively - and even for children that are verbal (my son is) some

just do not listen. Hey even I get frustrated when people just don't

listen and don't care, but no I do not resort to violence and neither

do I encourage my son to do so - although he can be violent at times -

so where did he get this behaviour from ? Am I a bad mother? I

spend a lot of time working with my son and others who work with him

to find stratagies to deal with his difficulties; and guess what?

When people work with my son and not agaisnt him there is much more

progress.

I am not a mother who doesn't care and neither am I a mother that

says such things as 'oh no not my precious little angel', I am aware

of what my son is capable of both good and bad - unfortunately I have

had similar experiences to Raven's and I am also aware of just what

bad some adults are capable of towards and at children that are

undeserving of such treatment - a little humanity would not go astray.

What I have to question with this story is were there strategies for

calming down a distressed child in place and if so were they applied?

>

> No.. does not change my mind. Policeofficers are also peace

> officers. The child was uncontrollable.. They tried to contact the

> mother (no telling where she was) and they took her into safe

custody

> so she would not harm herself or others.. Police officers are nice

> people. They are NOT Darth Vador... The child's welfare was also a

> concern. Why would anyone be afraid of their child being in a

police

> car or with the police? If my child were acting that way at 6, and

> they could not find me... I would go to the police station and find

> out what happened. No big thing.. If my child was upset because she

> got into trouble for her actions... then she learned... especially

> after we had a long talk about it.

>

> That was NOT repeat NOT a normal reaction from a very scared

little

> girl. That was a reaction from an out of control child who grew up

in

> a home thinking this is how to behave. I think the need to have

> social services to check into the child's homelife.

>

[Guest guest]

I am in the UK and the state of schools here in the area I

live are appalling and that is including the special schools.

Some of the practices that go on in schools seriously beggars belief -

but unfortunately they do happen and I am aware of such from

reliable sources, sometimes even the teachers themselves.

Yes there are some horrible children out there that are the product

of horrible parenting - but yet again I must specify that not all

children that 'act out' are products of bad parenting - again I have

to point out 'assumptions' and 'generalizing' do not help only hinder.

>

>

> Great work Avon Elementary and no sarcasm here.

> More parents need to learn how to be parents and teach manners,

> cooperation, and behavior with their children. Perhaps we should

have

> arrested the parents as well for poor parenting. I would like to

see

> more of that.. .In UK, teachers now ticket parents whose children

do

> not come to school. Michigan also filed criminal charges on

parents

> whose child was out of control and breaking the law. Its starts at

> home! The reason we don't have children with manners is because

> their parents don't have manners.

>

>

> " When I die, I want to die healthy "

[Guest guest]

I am in the UK and the state of schools here in the area I

live are appalling and that is including the special schools.

Some of the practices that go on in schools seriously beggars belief -

but unfortunately they do happen and I am aware of such from

reliable sources, sometimes even the teachers themselves.

Yes there are some horrible children out there that are the product

of horrible parenting - but yet again I must specify that not all

children that 'act out' are products of bad parenting - again I have

to point out 'assumptions' and 'generalizing' do not help only hinder.

>

>

> Great work Avon Elementary and no sarcasm here.

> More parents need to learn how to be parents and teach manners,

> cooperation, and behavior with their children. Perhaps we should

have

> arrested the parents as well for poor parenting. I would like to

see

> more of that.. .In UK, teachers now ticket parents whose children

do

> not come to school. Michigan also filed criminal charges on

parents

> whose child was out of control and breaking the law. Its starts at

> home! The reason we don't have children with manners is because

> their parents don't have manners.

>

>

> " When I die, I want to die healthy "

[Guest guest]

I am in the UK and the state of schools here in the area I

live are appalling and that is including the special schools.

Some of the practices that go on in schools seriously beggars belief -

but unfortunately they do happen and I am aware of such from

reliable sources, sometimes even the teachers themselves.

Yes there are some horrible children out there that are the product

of horrible parenting - but yet again I must specify that not all

children that 'act out' are products of bad parenting - again I have

to point out 'assumptions' and 'generalizing' do not help only hinder.

>

>

> Great work Avon Elementary and no sarcasm here.

> More parents need to learn how to be parents and teach manners,

> cooperation, and behavior with their children. Perhaps we should

have

> arrested the parents as well for poor parenting. I would like to

see

> more of that.. .In UK, teachers now ticket parents whose children

do

> not come to school. Michigan also filed criminal charges on

parents

> whose child was out of control and breaking the law. Its starts at

> home! The reason we don't have children with manners is because

> their parents don't have manners.

>

>

> " When I die, I want to die healthy "

[Guest guest]

" Your comments are very much like the comments I have heard from

teachers and support staff in school settings who, even knowing that

a child has an autism spectrum diagnosis, insist that the child must

be growing up in a terrible home with terrible role models and no

discipline whatsoever.

Raven "

What is even scarier is that due to such attitudes children have been

taken away from good parents and doing such has caused often

irreparable damage :-(

Also at the moment a respite care place in the UK is under

investigation due to the fact they physically abused my son, using

inappropriate force and causing serious bruising to my son. Now I am

sure if I had battered my son to the extent they did, my son would

likely have been taken off me - however because a care worker did

this there seems to me to be little repercussion's - infact I know

this care worker is still working at present.

" ... <snip> ... That was a reaction from an out of

> control child who grew up in a home thinking this is how to behave.

I

> think the need to have social services to check into the child's

> homelife. "

>

> And that statement is uncalled for, , since you are making an

> inappropriate judgment on the child and the child's homelife without

> considering any other possibilities like the possibility that the

child

> has an undiagnosed autism spectrum disorder.

>

> Your comments are very much like the comments I have heard from

teachers

> and support staff in school settings who, even knowing that a child

has

> an autism spectrum diagnosis, insist that the child must be growing

up

> in a terrible home with terrible role models and no discipline

> whatsoever.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

" Your comments are very much like the comments I have heard from

teachers and support staff in school settings who, even knowing that

a child has an autism spectrum diagnosis, insist that the child must

be growing up in a terrible home with terrible role models and no

discipline whatsoever.

Raven "

What is even scarier is that due to such attitudes children have been

taken away from good parents and doing such has caused often

irreparable damage :-(

Also at the moment a respite care place in the UK is under

investigation due to the fact they physically abused my son, using

inappropriate force and causing serious bruising to my son. Now I am

sure if I had battered my son to the extent they did, my son would

likely have been taken off me - however because a care worker did

this there seems to me to be little repercussion's - infact I know

this care worker is still working at present.

" ... <snip> ... That was a reaction from an out of

> control child who grew up in a home thinking this is how to behave.

I

> think the need to have social services to check into the child's

> homelife. "

>

> And that statement is uncalled for, , since you are making an

> inappropriate judgment on the child and the child's homelife without

> considering any other possibilities like the possibility that the

child

> has an undiagnosed autism spectrum disorder.

>

> Your comments are very much like the comments I have heard from

teachers

> and support staff in school settings who, even knowing that a child

has

> an autism spectrum diagnosis, insist that the child must be growing

up

> in a terrible home with terrible role models and no discipline

> whatsoever.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

" Your comments are very much like the comments I have heard from

teachers and support staff in school settings who, even knowing that

a child has an autism spectrum diagnosis, insist that the child must

be growing up in a terrible home with terrible role models and no

discipline whatsoever.

Raven "

What is even scarier is that due to such attitudes children have been

taken away from good parents and doing such has caused often

irreparable damage :-(

Also at the moment a respite care place in the UK is under

investigation due to the fact they physically abused my son, using

inappropriate force and causing serious bruising to my son. Now I am

sure if I had battered my son to the extent they did, my son would

likely have been taken off me - however because a care worker did

this there seems to me to be little repercussion's - infact I know

this care worker is still working at present.

" ... <snip> ... That was a reaction from an out of

> control child who grew up in a home thinking this is how to behave.

I

> think the need to have social services to check into the child's

> homelife. "

>

> And that statement is uncalled for, , since you are making an

> inappropriate judgment on the child and the child's homelife without

> considering any other possibilities like the possibility that the

child

> has an undiagnosed autism spectrum disorder.

>

> Your comments are very much like the comments I have heard from

teachers

> and support staff in school settings who, even knowing that a child

has

> an autism spectrum diagnosis, insist that the child must be growing

up

> in a terrible home with terrible role models and no discipline

> whatsoever.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

I understand wanting to continue posts like this, given that I had a problem like this some months back. Since then, Tom has asked me to keep a tighter rein on that kind of thing and that's what I intend to do. That a few posts continued is understandable, given how people read posts and the order they might come through via emails. However, posts came up that my calls to desist were heard. Yet it continues. One or two posts wouldn't have been so bad, but 20?

That pisses me off.

When I was growing up, if the animals wouldn't stop fighting over something, we'd turn the hose on them or throw a bucket of water on them. That did the trick. On here, we have moderation. Now, I would rather things settle down before it comes to that.

In understand how hard a heated argument is to walk away from. Just don't read the damn posts! Not doing that is what got me in trouble so I've been not reading some threads that I know would have gotten under my skin, trusting the others would and would keep a handle on things.

So, aside from Tom, who said he would make another couple of posts after reviewing this thread, I expect the hostilities to end.

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

wrote: " Tom we don't know who the bully is in that report.. not

enough to make that judgement... that is my point. There are two sides

to every story until we have all the facts "

No, you continually posted yesterday evening that the girl was the

bully and that the parents were poor parents. Therefore, you make one

claim and then pretend to have made another. I am glad your posts

remain as they are for others to see this sort of fence jumping.

As for your comment that you didn't post when your child attended

school and that I had assumed it, I asked hence the use of PERHAPS in

my previous post. And since you claim to have attended school in the

1950s, it would make sense to ask if PERHAPS your child attended school

some 20 to 30 years after YOU attended school.

PERHAPS you should read other people's posts more closely and PERHAPS

you should pay closer attention to what you post so you do not

contradict yourself.

Raven

[Guest guest]

" It's amazing how much success people can have when they actually

come from compassion and understanding and good hearts rather than

coming from judgment and callousness and discrimination.

Raven "

Most definitely agree and I have seen just what positives results

such can have. One does the work, one gets the results, but it is sad

to say there are still many out there that would try and tear down

such good results, because basically they don't care and don't want

to put the effort in.

" ... <snip> ... Its starts at home! The reason we

> don't have children with manners is because their parents don't

have

> manners ... <snip> ... "

>

> In many cases, it's because outside influences have no manners and

no

> compassion and they insist on abusing our children on the autism

> spectrum rather than work with the parents and work with the

children.

>

> It's amazing how much success people can have when they actually

come

> from compassion and understanding and good hearts rather than

coming

> from judgment and callousness and discrimination.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

" It's amazing how much success people can have when they actually

come from compassion and understanding and good hearts rather than

coming from judgment and callousness and discrimination.

Raven "

Most definitely agree and I have seen just what positives results

such can have. One does the work, one gets the results, but it is sad

to say there are still many out there that would try and tear down

such good results, because basically they don't care and don't want

to put the effort in.

" ... <snip> ... Its starts at home! The reason we

> don't have children with manners is because their parents don't

have

> manners ... <snip> ... "

>

> In many cases, it's because outside influences have no manners and

no

> compassion and they insist on abusing our children on the autism

> spectrum rather than work with the parents and work with the

children.

>

> It's amazing how much success people can have when they actually

come

> from compassion and understanding and good hearts rather than

coming

> from judgment and callousness and discrimination.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

" It's amazing how much success people can have when they actually

come from compassion and understanding and good hearts rather than

coming from judgment and callousness and discrimination.

Raven "

Most definitely agree and I have seen just what positives results

such can have. One does the work, one gets the results, but it is sad

to say there are still many out there that would try and tear down

such good results, because basically they don't care and don't want

to put the effort in.

" ... <snip> ... Its starts at home! The reason we

> don't have children with manners is because their parents don't

have

> manners ... <snip> ... "

>

> In many cases, it's because outside influences have no manners and

no

> compassion and they insist on abusing our children on the autism

> spectrum rather than work with the parents and work with the

children.

>

> It's amazing how much success people can have when they actually

come

> from compassion and understanding and good hearts rather than

coming

> from judgment and callousness and discrimination.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

wrote: " as for forcibly confine and charged.... The police were

right. If one does not obey the laws and attack others with no

justification, they will be confined and charged... "

Ah, weren't you the one who just posted that everything was not known

in this situation and that judgments were being made? You just made

another one yourself against the child. You are also deciding that the

STAFF at the school did nothing. My point was that if charges are to e

laid, they should be laid properly across the board and this would

include charges against STAFF involved in behaviour that broke the law.

wrote: " If that little girl hit my daughter during her wild

rampage..I would insist on the charges and the confinement to the

police station. We have no idea what the facts were, why the child

acted like she did.. "

No where in the police report did it state that she was harming OTHER

CHILDREN. In fact, it states clearly that she was charged with

disrupting the school. The only 'attack' charge was resisting arrest

and that would have been against the police officer. Notice that there

are no assault charges for attacks on any school staff. Kicking is not

enough for an assault charge on school staff against this child in the

police officer's estimation. THAT says a lot about what went on.

: " Being afraid is NOT enough. "

Remember that the next time there's a home invasion in your home,

. Don't fight back. Just remind yourself that being afraid is

NOT enough to warrant an attack. After all, they won't be hurting YOU

directly. They'll only be tying you up to keep you safe from yourself

so you don't harm them with kicking and scratching while they

intimidate the daylights out of you. <wink>

wrote: " I would look to the home as well as the school. There

are not enough facts in teh report to make up all these opinions about

police school or parents.... or the child... "

Face it, , you HAVE formed a very negative impression and

promoted that negative impression about the child and her mother as

well as her home life. You can't have it both ways ... appearing to be

fair and non-judgmental while being insultingly judgmental towards one

party involved in the situation.

Thank God you aren't a judge because it's obvious you are an excellent

lawyer as you fight for your side as opposed to what's fair and

equitable.

Raven

[Guest guest]

wrote: " as for forcibly confine and charged.... The police were

right. If one does not obey the laws and attack others with no

justification, they will be confined and charged... "

Ah, weren't you the one who just posted that everything was not known

in this situation and that judgments were being made? You just made

another one yourself against the child. You are also deciding that the

STAFF at the school did nothing. My point was that if charges are to e

laid, they should be laid properly across the board and this would

include charges against STAFF involved in behaviour that broke the law.

wrote: " If that little girl hit my daughter during her wild

rampage..I would insist on the charges and the confinement to the

police station. We have no idea what the facts were, why the child

acted like she did.. "

No where in the police report did it state that she was harming OTHER

CHILDREN. In fact, it states clearly that she was charged with

disrupting the school. The only 'attack' charge was resisting arrest

and that would have been against the police officer. Notice that there

are no assault charges for attacks on any school staff. Kicking is not

enough for an assault charge on school staff against this child in the

police officer's estimation. THAT says a lot about what went on.

: " Being afraid is NOT enough. "

Remember that the next time there's a home invasion in your home,

. Don't fight back. Just remind yourself that being afraid is

NOT enough to warrant an attack. After all, they won't be hurting YOU

directly. They'll only be tying you up to keep you safe from yourself

so you don't harm them with kicking and scratching while they

intimidate the daylights out of you. <wink>

wrote: " I would look to the home as well as the school. There

are not enough facts in teh report to make up all these opinions about

police school or parents.... or the child... "

Face it, , you HAVE formed a very negative impression and

promoted that negative impression about the child and her mother as

well as her home life. You can't have it both ways ... appearing to be

fair and non-judgmental while being insultingly judgmental towards one

party involved in the situation.

Thank God you aren't a judge because it's obvious you are an excellent

lawyer as you fight for your side as opposed to what's fair and

equitable.

Raven