Re: What is the Matter With People?

[Guest guest]

wrote: " as for forcibly confine and charged.... The police were

right. If one does not obey the laws and attack others with no

justification, they will be confined and charged... "

Ah, weren't you the one who just posted that everything was not known

in this situation and that judgments were being made? You just made

another one yourself against the child. You are also deciding that the

STAFF at the school did nothing. My point was that if charges are to e

laid, they should be laid properly across the board and this would

include charges against STAFF involved in behaviour that broke the law.

wrote: " If that little girl hit my daughter during her wild

rampage..I would insist on the charges and the confinement to the

police station. We have no idea what the facts were, why the child

acted like she did.. "

No where in the police report did it state that she was harming OTHER

CHILDREN. In fact, it states clearly that she was charged with

disrupting the school. The only 'attack' charge was resisting arrest

and that would have been against the police officer. Notice that there

are no assault charges for attacks on any school staff. Kicking is not

enough for an assault charge on school staff against this child in the

police officer's estimation. THAT says a lot about what went on.

: " Being afraid is NOT enough. "

Remember that the next time there's a home invasion in your home,

. Don't fight back. Just remind yourself that being afraid is

NOT enough to warrant an attack. After all, they won't be hurting YOU

directly. They'll only be tying you up to keep you safe from yourself

so you don't harm them with kicking and scratching while they

intimidate the daylights out of you. <wink>

wrote: " I would look to the home as well as the school. There

are not enough facts in teh report to make up all these opinions about

police school or parents.... or the child... "

Face it, , you HAVE formed a very negative impression and

promoted that negative impression about the child and her mother as

well as her home life. You can't have it both ways ... appearing to be

fair and non-judgmental while being insultingly judgmental towards one

party involved in the situation.

Thank God you aren't a judge because it's obvious you are an excellent

lawyer as you fight for your side as opposed to what's fair and

equitable.

Raven

[Guest guest]

wrote: " Ok. I was excited when I signed on and saw all these

posts and after reading the first one or two I was going to respond

with some of the things that have happened at my mother's school.

However, this has gotten far too heated, so this thread is closed. "

I just got to your post, , and I will respectfully stop posting

to this thread.

Raven

[Guest guest]

I disagree... we dont' know why she acted up... Chances are she

will learn to behave since her mother and father did not teach her

that acting up doesn't get ones way.... I have had abuse by

teachers and it never stopped me from reporting them or fighting back

through the system. In fact, it gives me focus and impetus to do it

the right way...

As for afraid to show emotions... I am the same.. I learned from an

abusive family not to show emotion. It is also apart of aspergers

too... Women who are aspergian are often accused of being cold and

too logical. Aspergian women who are logical are often seen and

accused of this....I have been accused of not showing emotion when I

don't put on an hysterical show.

" Nothing is wrong with them. I feel the police

> handled

> > the situation fine. The last time I saw this happening with a

child

> on

> > tv... It was videoed. the girl was out of control because the

mother

> > lacked parenting skills and encouraged such behavior.... Nothing

> wrong

> > with handcuffs if the child is kicking and scratching out of a

> tantrum..

> > If the child was scared of handcuffs because of her behavior..

then

> she

> > learned.. you cannot act like that . I suspect the mother is not

a

> very

> > good mother IMHO and the mother needs some parenting classes. "

> >

> > Really? Perhaps you'll change your mind when you read the POLICE

> REPORT

> > and see the CHARGES that were laid against this child.

> >

> > Here's how SCARY DANGEROUS this little 6 year old was according to

> > witnesses and the police. I have taken the time to type out the

> police

> > report (I have a jpg of the report and transcribed it directly).

> The

> > bolding and colouring are mine.

> >

> > POLICE REPORT

> >

> > On the above date and time I responded to the Avon Elementary

> School at

> > 705 W Winthrop Street, Avon Park, 33625 for a disruptive student,

> > Desre's . was upset and crying and wailing and would

> not

> > leave the classroom to let them study causing a disruption of the

> normal

> > class activities.

> >

> > Ms. Elder was called to remove her from the classroom, at which

she

> > began to hit and kick Ms. Elder. She had to be carried to the

front

> > office at which time she continued to wail and cry and refused to

> > communicate in anyway or to calm down.

> >

> > When I arrived was still carrying on and would not calm

down.

> > When I approached her she crawled under the table, at which I had

to

> > crawl and get her and she began to try to pull her legs away to

try

> to

> > get away from me.

> >

> > When I finally got her clear she began to pull and try to run

away

> from

> > me. I tried several times to get her to calm down and she began

to

> wail

> > louder. I placed her in handcuffs to keep her from hitting and

she

> still

> > kept trying to get away.

> >

> > Upon placing her into the back of the police vehicle she kept

> unbuckling

> > and trying to get out by placing her foot in the doorway to

prevent

> it

> > from closing.

> >

> > I had to have Officer ride in the back with her to

the

> > police department. The parent was still unreachable. She was

> transported

> > to the Highlands County Jail.

> >

> > Hmmmmm, sounds like a normal reaction from a very scared little

> girl.

> > It certainly doesn't sound like anything that warrants police

> > involvement at all.

> >

> > And what are the charges against this SCARY DANGEROUS child? Let

me

> > tell you, they certainly threw the book at her.

> >

> > THE CHARGES

> >

> > 1. Disruption of School Function 877.13(1a) Misdemeanor 2

> > 2. Battery on School Employee 784.081 Felony 3

> > 3. Resisting without Violence 843-02 Misdemeanor 1

> >

> > Holy moley! She was charged for Resisting without Violence

because

> she

> > reacted like any 6 year old scared out of her wits? Come on! And

> > charged with Disruption of School Function because she was acting

> out in

> > class like any 6 year old does from time to time? Battery on a

> School

> > Employee because she wanted to be heard instead of treated like a

> lesser

> > being?

> >

> > Did this Ms. Elder get charged with Forcible Confinement? How

about

> > Assault on a Minor?

> >

> > And you know those witnesses (because every Police Report needs

> > witnesses for charges to be laid) who gave their names so the

> > Prosecuting Attorney has people to call on to recount the events

of

> that

> > day at school when the SCARY DANGEROUS 6 year old attacked? They

> are 28

> > years old, 38 years old and 44 years old. We're not talking about

> > people who are near retirement age; we're talking adults who are

in

> > their prime for the most part ... people who could certainly take

> care

> > of a 6 year old in an appropriate fashion rather than resorting

to

> this

> > sort of emotional and psychological abuse.

> >

> > Does anyone really think that this little girl will ever be able

to

> > attend school without being terrified that someone will have her

> charged

> > for reacting in a way that is age appropriate? No. She will most

> > likely be afraid to be herself for the rest of her life because

> things

> > this big that happen early in life tend to stay with the child

the

> rest

> > of his/her life and to shape how the child interacts with the

world

> as a

> > child, as a teen and as an adult.

> >

> > Nice work there, Avon Elementary School in Highlands County,

> Florida!

> > <extreme sarcasm>

> >

> > Raven

> > Co-Administrator

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I disagree... we dont' know why she acted up... Chances are she

will learn to behave since her mother and father did not teach her

that acting up doesn't get ones way.... I have had abuse by

teachers and it never stopped me from reporting them or fighting back

through the system. In fact, it gives me focus and impetus to do it

the right way...

As for afraid to show emotions... I am the same.. I learned from an

abusive family not to show emotion. It is also apart of aspergers

too... Women who are aspergian are often accused of being cold and

too logical. Aspergian women who are logical are often seen and

accused of this....I have been accused of not showing emotion when I

don't put on an hysterical show.

" Nothing is wrong with them. I feel the police

> handled

> > the situation fine. The last time I saw this happening with a

child

> on

> > tv... It was videoed. the girl was out of control because the

mother

> > lacked parenting skills and encouraged such behavior.... Nothing

> wrong

> > with handcuffs if the child is kicking and scratching out of a

> tantrum..

> > If the child was scared of handcuffs because of her behavior..

then

> she

> > learned.. you cannot act like that . I suspect the mother is not

a

> very

> > good mother IMHO and the mother needs some parenting classes. "

> >

> > Really? Perhaps you'll change your mind when you read the POLICE

> REPORT

> > and see the CHARGES that were laid against this child.

> >

> > Here's how SCARY DANGEROUS this little 6 year old was according to

> > witnesses and the police. I have taken the time to type out the

> police

> > report (I have a jpg of the report and transcribed it directly).

> The

> > bolding and colouring are mine.

> >

> > POLICE REPORT

> >

> > On the above date and time I responded to the Avon Elementary

> School at

> > 705 W Winthrop Street, Avon Park, 33625 for a disruptive student,

> > Desre's . was upset and crying and wailing and would

> not

> > leave the classroom to let them study causing a disruption of the

> normal

> > class activities.

> >

> > Ms. Elder was called to remove her from the classroom, at which

she

> > began to hit and kick Ms. Elder. She had to be carried to the

front

> > office at which time she continued to wail and cry and refused to

> > communicate in anyway or to calm down.

> >

> > When I arrived was still carrying on and would not calm

down.

> > When I approached her she crawled under the table, at which I had

to

> > crawl and get her and she began to try to pull her legs away to

try

> to

> > get away from me.

> >

> > When I finally got her clear she began to pull and try to run

away

> from

> > me. I tried several times to get her to calm down and she began

to

> wail

> > louder. I placed her in handcuffs to keep her from hitting and

she

> still

> > kept trying to get away.

> >

> > Upon placing her into the back of the police vehicle she kept

> unbuckling

> > and trying to get out by placing her foot in the doorway to

prevent

> it

> > from closing.

> >

> > I had to have Officer ride in the back with her to

the

> > police department. The parent was still unreachable. She was

> transported

> > to the Highlands County Jail.

> >

> > Hmmmmm, sounds like a normal reaction from a very scared little

> girl.

> > It certainly doesn't sound like anything that warrants police

> > involvement at all.

> >

> > And what are the charges against this SCARY DANGEROUS child? Let

me

> > tell you, they certainly threw the book at her.

> >

> > THE CHARGES

> >

> > 1. Disruption of School Function 877.13(1a) Misdemeanor 2

> > 2. Battery on School Employee 784.081 Felony 3

> > 3. Resisting without Violence 843-02 Misdemeanor 1

> >

> > Holy moley! She was charged for Resisting without Violence

because

> she

> > reacted like any 6 year old scared out of her wits? Come on! And

> > charged with Disruption of School Function because she was acting

> out in

> > class like any 6 year old does from time to time? Battery on a

> School

> > Employee because she wanted to be heard instead of treated like a

> lesser

> > being?

> >

> > Did this Ms. Elder get charged with Forcible Confinement? How

about

> > Assault on a Minor?

> >

> > And you know those witnesses (because every Police Report needs

> > witnesses for charges to be laid) who gave their names so the

> > Prosecuting Attorney has people to call on to recount the events

of

> that

> > day at school when the SCARY DANGEROUS 6 year old attacked? They

> are 28

> > years old, 38 years old and 44 years old. We're not talking about

> > people who are near retirement age; we're talking adults who are

in

> > their prime for the most part ... people who could certainly take

> care

> > of a 6 year old in an appropriate fashion rather than resorting

to

> this

> > sort of emotional and psychological abuse.

> >

> > Does anyone really think that this little girl will ever be able

to

> > attend school without being terrified that someone will have her

> charged

> > for reacting in a way that is age appropriate? No. She will most

> > likely be afraid to be herself for the rest of her life because

> things

> > this big that happen early in life tend to stay with the child

the

> rest

> > of his/her life and to shape how the child interacts with the

world

> as a

> > child, as a teen and as an adult.

> >

> > Nice work there, Avon Elementary School in Highlands County,

> Florida!

> > <extreme sarcasm>

> >

> > Raven

> > Co-Administrator

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I disagree... we dont' know why she acted up... Chances are she

will learn to behave since her mother and father did not teach her

that acting up doesn't get ones way.... I have had abuse by

teachers and it never stopped me from reporting them or fighting back

through the system. In fact, it gives me focus and impetus to do it

the right way...

As for afraid to show emotions... I am the same.. I learned from an

abusive family not to show emotion. It is also apart of aspergers

too... Women who are aspergian are often accused of being cold and

too logical. Aspergian women who are logical are often seen and

accused of this....I have been accused of not showing emotion when I

don't put on an hysterical show.

" Nothing is wrong with them. I feel the police

> handled

> > the situation fine. The last time I saw this happening with a

child

> on

> > tv... It was videoed. the girl was out of control because the

mother

> > lacked parenting skills and encouraged such behavior.... Nothing

> wrong

> > with handcuffs if the child is kicking and scratching out of a

> tantrum..

> > If the child was scared of handcuffs because of her behavior..

then

> she

> > learned.. you cannot act like that . I suspect the mother is not

a

> very

> > good mother IMHO and the mother needs some parenting classes. "

> >

> > Really? Perhaps you'll change your mind when you read the POLICE

> REPORT

> > and see the CHARGES that were laid against this child.

> >

> > Here's how SCARY DANGEROUS this little 6 year old was according to

> > witnesses and the police. I have taken the time to type out the

> police

> > report (I have a jpg of the report and transcribed it directly).

> The

> > bolding and colouring are mine.

> >

> > POLICE REPORT

> >

> > On the above date and time I responded to the Avon Elementary

> School at

> > 705 W Winthrop Street, Avon Park, 33625 for a disruptive student,

> > Desre's . was upset and crying and wailing and would

> not

> > leave the classroom to let them study causing a disruption of the

> normal

> > class activities.

> >

> > Ms. Elder was called to remove her from the classroom, at which

she

> > began to hit and kick Ms. Elder. She had to be carried to the

front

> > office at which time she continued to wail and cry and refused to

> > communicate in anyway or to calm down.

> >

> > When I arrived was still carrying on and would not calm

down.

> > When I approached her she crawled under the table, at which I had

to

> > crawl and get her and she began to try to pull her legs away to

try

> to

> > get away from me.

> >

> > When I finally got her clear she began to pull and try to run

away

> from

> > me. I tried several times to get her to calm down and she began

to

> wail

> > louder. I placed her in handcuffs to keep her from hitting and

she

> still

> > kept trying to get away.

> >

> > Upon placing her into the back of the police vehicle she kept

> unbuckling

> > and trying to get out by placing her foot in the doorway to

prevent

> it

> > from closing.

> >

> > I had to have Officer ride in the back with her to

the

> > police department. The parent was still unreachable. She was

> transported

> > to the Highlands County Jail.

> >

> > Hmmmmm, sounds like a normal reaction from a very scared little

> girl.

> > It certainly doesn't sound like anything that warrants police

> > involvement at all.

> >

> > And what are the charges against this SCARY DANGEROUS child? Let

me

> > tell you, they certainly threw the book at her.

> >

> > THE CHARGES

> >

> > 1. Disruption of School Function 877.13(1a) Misdemeanor 2

> > 2. Battery on School Employee 784.081 Felony 3

> > 3. Resisting without Violence 843-02 Misdemeanor 1

> >

> > Holy moley! She was charged for Resisting without Violence

because

> she

> > reacted like any 6 year old scared out of her wits? Come on! And

> > charged with Disruption of School Function because she was acting

> out in

> > class like any 6 year old does from time to time? Battery on a

> School

> > Employee because she wanted to be heard instead of treated like a

> lesser

> > being?

> >

> > Did this Ms. Elder get charged with Forcible Confinement? How

about

> > Assault on a Minor?

> >

> > And you know those witnesses (because every Police Report needs

> > witnesses for charges to be laid) who gave their names so the

> > Prosecuting Attorney has people to call on to recount the events

of

> that

> > day at school when the SCARY DANGEROUS 6 year old attacked? They

> are 28

> > years old, 38 years old and 44 years old. We're not talking about

> > people who are near retirement age; we're talking adults who are

in

> > their prime for the most part ... people who could certainly take

> care

> > of a 6 year old in an appropriate fashion rather than resorting

to

> this

> > sort of emotional and psychological abuse.

> >

> > Does anyone really think that this little girl will ever be able

to

> > attend school without being terrified that someone will have her

> charged

> > for reacting in a way that is age appropriate? No. She will most

> > likely be afraid to be herself for the rest of her life because

> things

> > this big that happen early in life tend to stay with the child

the

> rest

> > of his/her life and to shape how the child interacts with the

world

> as a

> > child, as a teen and as an adult.

> >

> > Nice work there, Avon Elementary School in Highlands County,

> Florida!

> > <extreme sarcasm>

> >

> > Raven

> > Co-Administrator

> >

>

[Guest guest]

As it is wrong to assume the teach , school and police were bad. It

works both ways. Base things on facts... A report was made and a

poster decided to be judge and jury based on her own imagination and

false facts...... trying to create a witch trial.

Comfort her? we dont' know the facts do we? I believe they did call

the mother and could not locate her...

If we stay to the report and not add our imagination it would be

better.. Lets read over the report again and carefully.

> >

> > Nothing is wrong with them. I feel the police handled the

situation

> > fine. The last time I saw this happening with a child on tv...

It

> > was videoed. the girl was out of control because the mother

lacked

> > parenting skills and encouraged such behavior.... Nothing wrong

with

> > handcuffs if the child is kicking and scratching out of a

tantrum..

> > If the child was scared of handcuffs because of her behavior..

then

> > she learned.. you cannot act like that . I suspect the mother is

not

> > a very good mother IMHO and the mother needs some parenting

classes.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Exactly . My post was a response to Raven who was creating a

story not based on facts of the report.. I simply brought up another

scenario which could have happened... and I consistantly stated we

don't have the facts.... It is all too easy to become defensive and

apply some scenario our children or we went through as children and

place those into a new report which did not give us the facts... Like

I said.. I and my family have suffered such attacks but I will not

allow someone take a report and start using it to place their own

life withint that report and not using facts.... I simply gave

another side to show there are many things that could have happened

including the child being the cause of the problem. Assuming the

teachers, school, and police were at fault is doing everyone and

society an injustice.

> >

> > No.. does not change my mind. Policeofficers are also peace

> > officers. The child was uncontrollable.. They tried to contact

the

> > mother (no telling where she was) and they took her into safe

> custody

> > so she would not harm herself or others.. Police officers are

nice

> > people. They are NOT Darth Vador... The child's welfare was also

a

> > concern. Why would anyone be afraid of their child being in a

> police

> > car or with the police? If my child were acting that way at 6,

and

> > they could not find me... I would go to the police station and

find

> > out what happened. No big thing.. If my child was upset because

she

> > got into trouble for her actions... then she learned...

especially

> > after we had a long talk about it.

> >

> > That was NOT repeat NOT a normal reaction from a very scared

> little

> > girl. That was a reaction from an out of control child who grew

up

> in

> > a home thinking this is how to behave. I think the need to have

> > social services to check into the child's homelife.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Exactly . My post was a response to Raven who was creating a

story not based on facts of the report.. I simply brought up another

scenario which could have happened... and I consistantly stated we

don't have the facts.... It is all too easy to become defensive and

apply some scenario our children or we went through as children and

place those into a new report which did not give us the facts... Like

I said.. I and my family have suffered such attacks but I will not

allow someone take a report and start using it to place their own

life withint that report and not using facts.... I simply gave

another side to show there are many things that could have happened

including the child being the cause of the problem. Assuming the

teachers, school, and police were at fault is doing everyone and

society an injustice.

> >

> > No.. does not change my mind. Policeofficers are also peace

> > officers. The child was uncontrollable.. They tried to contact

the

> > mother (no telling where she was) and they took her into safe

> custody

> > so she would not harm herself or others.. Police officers are

nice

> > people. They are NOT Darth Vador... The child's welfare was also

a

> > concern. Why would anyone be afraid of their child being in a

> police

> > car or with the police? If my child were acting that way at 6,

and

> > they could not find me... I would go to the police station and

find

> > out what happened. No big thing.. If my child was upset because

she

> > got into trouble for her actions... then she learned...

especially

> > after we had a long talk about it.

> >

> > That was NOT repeat NOT a normal reaction from a very scared

> little

> > girl. That was a reaction from an out of control child who grew

up

> in

> > a home thinking this is how to behave. I think the need to have

> > social services to check into the child's homelife.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Exactly . My post was a response to Raven who was creating a

story not based on facts of the report.. I simply brought up another

scenario which could have happened... and I consistantly stated we

don't have the facts.... It is all too easy to become defensive and

apply some scenario our children or we went through as children and

place those into a new report which did not give us the facts... Like

I said.. I and my family have suffered such attacks but I will not

allow someone take a report and start using it to place their own

life withint that report and not using facts.... I simply gave

another side to show there are many things that could have happened

including the child being the cause of the problem. Assuming the

teachers, school, and police were at fault is doing everyone and

society an injustice.

> >

> > No.. does not change my mind. Policeofficers are also peace

> > officers. The child was uncontrollable.. They tried to contact

the

> > mother (no telling where she was) and they took her into safe

> custody

> > so she would not harm herself or others.. Police officers are

nice

> > people. They are NOT Darth Vador... The child's welfare was also

a

> > concern. Why would anyone be afraid of their child being in a

> police

> > car or with the police? If my child were acting that way at 6,

and

> > they could not find me... I would go to the police station and

find

> > out what happened. No big thing.. If my child was upset because

she

> > got into trouble for her actions... then she learned...

especially

> > after we had a long talk about it.

> >

> > That was NOT repeat NOT a normal reaction from a very scared

> little

> > girl. That was a reaction from an out of control child who grew

up

> in

> > a home thinking this is how to behave. I think the need to have

> > social services to check into the child's homelife.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

by the same token..my daughter lived in the UK for 3 years and

during that time i visited many areas and had the opportunity to talk

to social workers, teachers, and doctors as well as see reports on

the BBC about truancy etc...I even experience a protest against

America and the war in Oxford and it was filled with school age

children who left school with painted cheeks as if the protest was a

festival... The government was asking parents to not have the

children leave school for things like this... One mother came on the

BBC and said it was her right as a mother to let her child do what he

wants. She was an American transplant to UK. According to the

social worker I talked with he said the familial challenges in UK are

the same as the USA. He was quite up with US problems with famlies

and children. I am aware not all children act up out of bad

parenting.. but to assume it was the school from the report given is

wrong. The facts are not there to justify the first accusation by

Raven that it was the school and police fault esp with teh cry " Way

to go Avon " <scarcastic> There were no facts to assume it was the

school, teacher, police, child or willie WOnka who was the challenge.

Raven created a false scenario without facts.. I objected with a

similar assumption to the other way hoping people would see all this

wwas not based on the report. Raven has attacked me personally and it

seems like this is proof is one can't be right, be wrong in a loud

voice and start bullying the person who disagrees. This alone proves

where bullying comes from.

I wonder how many children see parents act like this.. Making up

false things , throw tamtrums themselves attack other people

personally when they cannot be credible with facts and the children

emulate them. I think this exchange is a good example of where

children learn such behavior. If parents take a report , throw in

facts, create a witch hunt against school, teachers, police....

children will do the same...by example.

Who took a simple report and interjected their own assumptions and

and created a witch hunt in the first place.? This backs up what I

was saying all along.. it comes from the home.

> >

> >

> > Great work Avon Elementary and no sarcasm here.

> > More parents need to learn how to be parents and teach manners,

> > cooperation, and behavior with their children. Perhaps we should

> have

> > arrested the parents as well for poor parenting. I would like to

> see

> > more of that.. .In UK, teachers now ticket parents whose children

> do

> > not come to school. Michigan also filed criminal charges on

> parents

> > whose child was out of control and breaking the law. Its starts

at

> > home! The reason we don't have children with manners is because

> > their parents don't have manners.

> >

> >

> > " When I die, I want to die healthy "

>

[Guest guest]

By the same token many children were left in homes where they were

murdered by the parents, abused even further and there is little

society can do. Yes there are teachers and schools who misdiagnose

and have horrific staff..but that is not what was in the report.. now

we are all straying to another situation completely...

I can come up with all kinds scenarios..

Like the crime on campus with the man who murdered all the college

students.. apparantly he was reported by social workers and nothing

could be done..... this young man was allowed to continue to get to

the point of killing so many young people slaughtered. More often

than not , today, authorities cannot touch biological families until

something like this happens ..

Talking with the social worker in UK, he said like the USA .. there

is so little he can do.. He has names of families where the children

must be pulled out but he cannot do so unless he has proof and even

then the parents whine and accuse and get away with horrific

parenting.. he, too, said it basically came from the home iwth how

the parents were raising their child with or without emotional

challenges.

" ... <snip> ... That was a reaction from an out of

> > control child who grew up in a home thinking this is how to

behave.

> I

> > think the need to have social services to check into the child's

> > homelife. "

> >

> > And that statement is uncalled for, , since you are making

an

> > inappropriate judgment on the child and the child's homelife

without

> > considering any other possibilities like the possibility that the

> child

> > has an undiagnosed autism spectrum disorder.

> >

> > Your comments are very much like the comments I have heard from

> teachers

> > and support staff in school settings who, even knowing that a

child

> has

> > an autism spectrum diagnosis, insist that the child must be

growing

> up

> > in a terrible home with terrible role models and no discipline

> > whatsoever.

> >

> > Raven

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Tell us and Raven. How would you have prevented the student at

Virgina Tech from getting to the point he did? Apparantly , reports

with facts are not needed.. Tell us how the schools, system, teachers

were wrong and caused the murders themselves. Where were the parents

of this young man? We can do this with any situation where a young

person has acted up or committed murder. Children can also be

wrong... and make up things . Children can lie like adults and if its

exemplified at home by the parent they will do so... There are just

as many cases as parents who will yell, cry , fight screem, because

they do not want to take responsibility for their own bad parenting.

" ... <snip> ... Its starts at home! The reason we

> > don't have children with manners is because their parents don't

> have

> > manners ... <snip> ... "

> >

> > In many cases, it's because outside influences have no manners

and

> no

> > compassion and they insist on abusing our children on the autism

> > spectrum rather than work with the parents and work with the

> children.

> >

> > It's amazing how much success people can have when they actually

> come

> > from compassion and understanding and good hearts rather than

> coming

> > from judgment and callousness and discrimination.

> >

> > Raven

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Raven i responded to your posts which went on and on about how

horrible the school was ..read back.... " Way to go AVON " <sarcastic>

you wrote.... ALso you said you would not respond to any more of my

posts... then you tell william you just got to his post.. when his

was right after mine....This says a lot..

Raven I suggest i read them very carefully.. what makes you think

people born in the 50s have kids who go to school in 70s and 80s?

Some of us are over 30 when we had children, not 19. it was a false

assumption like your original post which you are now trying to back

away from.

Your original post was not stating two sides... you assumed it was

the school. Not until I brought up the other side did you FINALLY

realize other people see things differently... then you attacked me

personally. Then you said you would not respond to my posts and then

you told you just came to his post when he posted after mine

last night. How are these facts wrong?

Have you answered my question... do you have asperger's like your

child? I have asked you before.. did I miss your answer?

Raven take responsibility for your own posts which you made first..

do you want me to show the date and time of your initial posts where

you went on and on about teachers, schools , police and became judge

and jury and the time when I responded with another side of the coin?

You trying to side step will not work with the facts of your posts on

the subject and the time they were made... I just got in from my

ranch spending a few days with my cousin who has aspergers and OCD

like I do.

Don't try to find a scapegoat. That is bullying.

" Tom we don't know who the bully is in that report..

not

> enough to make that judgement... that is my point. There are two

sides

> to every story until we have all the facts "

>

> No, you continually posted yesterday evening that the girl was the

> bully and that the parents were poor parents. Therefore, you make

one

> claim and then pretend to have made another. I am glad your posts

> remain as they are for others to see this sort of fence jumping.

>

> As for your comment that you didn't post when your child attended

> school and that I had assumed it, I asked hence the use of PERHAPS

in

> my previous post. And since you claim to have attended school in

the

> 1950s, it would make sense to ask if PERHAPS your child attended

school

> some 20 to 30 years after YOU attended school.

>

> PERHAPS you should read other people's posts more closely and

PERHAPS

> you should pay closer attention to what you post so you do not

> contradict yourself.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

" So? there are abusive people in all walks of life. I judge people

by their character not their occupation, race, colour, religion, sex,

etc etc... I have worked in the criminal justice system, the

university system, been a parent of and a student of private and

public schools. I have seen abuse in many places by many people.. by

the same token I have seen parents who do not take responsibility for

their roles as parents, sometimes encourage bad behavior by overtly

teaching such or through example or both, and the parents came from

all socio/economic backgrounds. Its about individual character. "

Good morning!

Sory I was not able to reply to your posts last night. I had a

Scrabble game that beckoned me, and then, to bed.

I am going to go through the posts in order as I usually do when I

get online.

In answer to this one, my point was merely that most people assume

that those in authority are good people who are instructed on how to

do their jobs.

This assumption can sometimes be a poor one.

My background is in psychology, educational psychology, and

educational measurement. I am an AS advocate and also a pen-pal of

Donna and some other reputable people in the autistic

community.

In my time as advocate I have seen quite a bit of corruption and

incompetence in the school system, the government, and in the

medical community. My experience has been that the more a person is

liked, the less incompetent they are, but they have achieved high

positions of authority through charm, personality, lies, greed, and

deception.

Therefore to assume that the parent is at fault for what this child

did is equally as dangerous as assuming that the teacher was at

fault. We simply do not know what caused this child's outburst.

However, since we know that it is quite unlikely that a child would

simply " freak out " for no apparent reason and put herself at risk to

unknown consequences which might be worse than anything she was

enduring before the outburst, it seems likely to me that she was

either provoked or dealt with in an extremely poor manner.

Tom

Admninistrator

[Guest guest]

" Seems like you want people to read the report the way you do...I

read

the report and don't see half of what you are claiming., and IF we

disagree, you claim there is no talking with a person. "

You are correct when you state that you cannot read anything in a

report that is not overtly stated. However, experience gives one

insight. That charges of felony and misdemeanor were brought againt

this child (aged 6) seem rather silly in light of the fact that this

child, whether she was mentally ill or out of her mind, could have

no real understanding of what a felony and misdemeanor are OR of the

possible consequences that may ensue from having them laid against

her. If the child is incapable of understanding the charges leveled

against her, then shouldn't the child have been taken to a hospital

for admittance until such time that she could be stabilized and the

parent(s) called?

This is standard procedure in most schools and most police districts

when activities of this nature occur. So why wasn't it done here?

Police incompetence do to poor training is the most probable answer

with a secondary answer being a poor police policy if arrest is

mandated. After all, if the child IS in fact a danger to herself, or

if she is suffering some sort of violent outburst due to seizure,

then she may have been in medical jeopardy, and she would not be

getting appropriate medical treatment whilst in jail.

Thus we can readily see that this police officer, or police policy,

was possibly further jeopardizing this child's medical and mental

welfare by the handling of the situation.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

I hear what you are saying, but I disagree with you respectfully.

Whgen one is being abused, I really don't think that person ought to

allow themselves to be subjected to that abuse out of manners,

ettiquette, and decorum and then afterwards sue the people who

abused them. Isn't it to one's advantage to try to avoid the abuse

as best one can and THEN sue afterwards?

At any rate, most children at the age of 6 opporate like Skinner Box

lab rats. Stimulus response. Also, Newton's law seems to apply. For

every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. So if you

provoke a child in any way, they will respond accordingly. That the

reaction that this girl has had appears over the top to US means

nothing. It may be a natural reaction to her. And if indeed she

constantly over-reacts, then what is she doing in this classroom as

opposed to one that meets her needs? Obviously she needs a medical

evaluation as well as a pedogogical one to mae sure that she gets

proper medical treatment and proper placement within the school

system.

More balls dropped obviously. But this is a common occurence.

Tom

Administrator

This is only a drop of what has happened to me, my husband and

daughter, in private schools and public schools... but I will NOT

nor will my husband or daugther < who graduate BTW in 2000 > not act

like the very hooligans you describe as violent unless its self

defense. There is no excuse.

One fights through hearings, courts etc... If the school is lousy ,

move the child.... I begged my mother to take me out of public

school..she was very worried.. then the next year I got the best

teacher in the world who knew of the problem. My mom took it to the

principal... that teach teated me fairly and turned out to be one of

the best teachers I ever had... Also my mom, when my brother was in

HS was sexually approached by a principal. She was outraged...

Life happens.. you fight it the right way... not by saying its right

for kids to hit kick scream just because they are afraid.. I

disagree. I was afraid many times and my daughter and my husband and

my many cousins.. but we don't use violence for there use of it..

that makes one no better than those who abuse.. and in all honesty I

would not have any teach my daughter or be her guardian if they

approved of that approach.

[Guest guest]

Tom I have experience abuse from teachers, other parents, and other

students. People in authority have more weight in many ways, but I

have seen equal abuse by students and parents.... as a student

myself, as a mother, volunteer in school, and college professor. To

me its case by case... I don't assume.. I look at the facts. Hence I

agree that assumptions of any kind are dangerous...

when people stray from facts of a report and interject their own

prejudices, this creates conflicts on all sides. There are always two

sides to a coin. I learned this in court system eons ago, where I

worked for 11 yrs.

I do not care for teachers unions and feel this is a big problem.

There are many teachers who try to get rid of other teachers,

especially good teachers theya re jealous of, or someone they see as

an easy scapegoat.

My daughter had a teacher from h*ll in teh second grade.. to this day

I would not speak to that teacher. She had a teacher who was on

drugs and I exposed her through facts tothe school. She was taken

outof the system... we had to negotiate the entire class grades

because the students were left to learn on their own.

I have seen incompetant teachers and administrators and do not

support them as I do not support parents who are equally responsible

for abusing the system and their child.

In court I have seen 13 yr old madams who ran 16 yr old prostitutes..

where is Mom? Running her own women... Parents who seem lovely on

the outside to the public but behind the scenes are raping or having

their children raped for profit.... animal abuse, child abuse etc.. I

have seen all spectrums of child abuse from school, neighborhood, and

family.

I do not like nor will I support a witch hunt against schools,

teachers, parents or anything for the sake of venting over a report

where fiction was interjected with facts... Assumptions made over

facts...

I do not have a degree in psychology, but I can tell you I have ahd

enough courses and experiences to have my own learned opinion. I also

experienced sexual abuse by a psychologist and this is the realm of

trusted authority. Such misbehavior and abuse can be found everywhere

if left unchecked.

>

> " So? there are abusive people in all walks of life. I judge people

> by their character not their occupation, race, colour, religion,

sex,

> etc etc... I have worked in the criminal justice system, the

> university system, been a parent of and a student of private and

> public schools. I have seen abuse in many places by many people.. by

> the same token I have seen parents who do not take responsibility

for

> their roles as parents, sometimes encourage bad behavior by overtly

> teaching such or through example or both, and the parents came from

> all socio/economic backgrounds. Its about individual character. "

>

> Good morning!

>

> Sory I was not able to reply to your posts last night. I had a

> Scrabble game that beckoned me, and then, to bed.

>

> I am going to go through the posts in order as I usually do when I

> get online.

>

> In answer to this one, my point was merely that most people assume

> that those in authority are good people who are instructed on how

to

> do their jobs.

>

> This assumption can sometimes be a poor one.

>

> My background is in psychology, educational psychology, and

> educational measurement. I am an AS advocate and also a pen-pal of

> Donna and some other reputable people in the autistic

> community.

>

> In my time as advocate I have seen quite a bit of corruption and

> incompetence in the school system, the government, and in the

> medical community. My experience has been that the more a person is

> liked, the less incompetent they are, but they have achieved high

> positions of authority through charm, personality, lies, greed, and

> deception.

>

> Therefore to assume that the parent is at fault for what this child

> did is equally as dangerous as assuming that the teacher was at

> fault. We simply do not know what caused this child's outburst.

>

> However, since we know that it is quite unlikely that a child would

> simply " freak out " for no apparent reason and put herself at risk

to

> unknown consequences which might be worse than anything she was

> enduring before the outburst, it seems likely to me that she was

> either provoked or dealt with in an extremely poor manner.

>

> Tom

> Admninistrator

>

[Guest guest]

Tom do you have the facts in front of you? DO you know she is

mentally ill for a fact? How do you know where she was placed? Why

are you assuming these charges meant she did not have a person taking

care of her until her parent/s arrived? Again these are all

assumptions. At 6, I knew right from wrong when I kicked, or hit,

scratched or screamed. If it was self defense it was right.. if it

was to get my way it was wrong.. and I have OCD and aspergers... if

the child had a mental illness it will be discussed in court, with

psycholgists (child) on all sides.

>

> " Seems like you want people to read the report the way you do...I

> read

> the report and don't see half of what you are claiming., and IF we

> disagree, you claim there is no talking with a person. "

>

> You are correct when you state that you cannot read anything in a

> report that is not overtly stated. However, experience gives one

> insight. That charges of felony and misdemeanor were brought againt

> this child (aged 6) seem rather silly in light of the fact that

this

> child, whether she was mentally ill or out of her mind, could have

> no real understanding of what a felony and misdemeanor are OR of

the

> possible consequences that may ensue from having them laid against

> her. If the child is incapable of understanding the charges leveled

> against her, then shouldn't the child have been taken to a hospital

> for admittance until such time that she could be stabilized and the

> parent(s) called?

>

> This is standard procedure in most schools and most police

districts

> when activities of this nature occur. So why wasn't it done here?

>

> Police incompetence do to poor training is the most probable answer

> with a secondary answer being a poor police policy if arrest is

> mandated. After all, if the child IS in fact a danger to herself,

or

> if she is suffering some sort of violent outburst due to seizure,

> then she may have been in medical jeopardy, and she would not be

> getting appropriate medical treatment whilst in jail.

>

> Thus we can readily see that this police officer, or police policy,

> was possibly further jeopardizing this child's medical and mental

> welfare by the handling of the situation.

>

> Tom

> Administrator

>

[Guest guest]

wrote: " ... <snip> ... Raven has attacked me personally and it

seems like this is proof is one can't be right, be wrong in a loud

voice and start bullying the person who disagrees. This alone proves

where bullying comes from ... <snip> ... "

Oh really? Trolls have a way of behaving in similar fashion as you

behave, ... claiming that things were posted that were not

posted, twisting what was posted in order to make themselves look like

the victim.

Read the police report word for word. You will see that the child was

not the little monster that you are painting her to be and nowhere does

it say that she is the product of poor parenting. It does, however,

speak loudly to the school's inability to react appropriately to a 6-

year-old.

Raven

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/18/2007 1:51:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TxArt@... writes:

I agree especially when people resort to personal attacks which are not a part of the issue being discussed. In the future I will not respond to people who attack me personally or my family, especially when people do not have Aspergers...its plain bullying.

I appreciate the sentiments. However, comments like this don't help. They only serve to perpetuate the hostilities. In cases like this, it is better just to say nothing else.

See what's free at AOL.com.

[Guest guest]

I never stated one had to be subjected to abuse physically.. I stated

one can use physical attacks for protection.. did you not read all

that I wrote about my daughter and myself?

Self defense is always warranted. You do not know if the girl was

abused. Show me in the report where she was being physically abused

or bullied.

Yes, this girl needs to be evaluated.... hence the charges.... that

will be a part of the process.... the girl was out of hand enough so

that the state needs to interceed to see what is happening not only

at the school but in the home. That is the part of this entire

process.

If the child is normal(we do not know one way or the other), She has

a certain level of knowledge of right from wrong, even at 6. I have

aspergers and OCD and I knew the basic components of right from wrong

at that age.. unless one is defending themselves, it is wrong to hit,

scream, disrupt, and scratch with no provocation. Hence you have so

many 6 yr old which have to deal with children who did not get the

proper development for social situations by the parents. Where is

the mother?

Lets follow this case and see what emerges from this cases. I would

lke to know all that went on in the class , from the other students,

and the homelife and emotional well being of this 6 yr old.

To assume anyoutbreak , without facts, means the child is not

invovled in misbehavior is as false as to assume the teacher or

school at fault. IT works both ways.... Children are not above lying

like anyone else.

We had many cases in court where the children were caught lying and

harming adults from such lies...

>

> This is only a drop of what has happened to me, my husband and

> daughter, in private schools and public schools... but I will NOT

> nor will my husband or daugther < who graduate BTW in 2000 > not

act

> like the very hooligans you describe as violent unless its self

> defense. There is no excuse.

>

> One fights through hearings, courts etc... If the school is lousy ,

> move the child.... I begged my mother to take me out of public

> school..she was very worried.. then the next year I got the best

> teacher in the world who knew of the problem. My mom took it to the

> principal... that teach teated me fairly and turned out to be one of

> the best teachers I ever had... Also my mom, when my brother was in

> HS was sexually approached by a principal. She was outraged...

>

> Life happens.. you fight it the right way... not by saying its right

> for kids to hit kick scream just because they are afraid.. I

> disagree. I was afraid many times and my daughter and my husband and

> my many cousins.. but we don't use violence for there use of it..

> that makes one no better than those who abuse.. and in all honesty I

> would not have any teach my daughter or be her guardian if they

> approved of that approach.

>

[Guest guest]

" as for bullies... I look to the home.... I can see them to this day

in

teh neighborhood in the making and I can tell you it comes from the

home. "

There is some validity to this.

However...

The American Psychological Association has some good facts on the

causes of bullying. They say:

" Children who regularly bully their peers tend to be impulsive,

easily frustrated, dominant in personality, have difficulty

conforming to rules, view violence positively and are more likely to

have friends who are also bullies. Boys who bully are usually

physically stronger than their peers.

" Moreover, several risk factors have been associated with bullying,

including individual, family, peer, school, and community factors.

With respect to family factors, children are more likely to bully if

there is a lack of warmth and parent involvement, lack of parental

supervision, and harsh corporal discipline. Some research suggests a

link between bullying behavior and child maltreatment. Also, schools

that lack adequate adult supervision tend to have more instances of

bullying. "

http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/bullying.html

Here the APA agrees with you on the parenting issue, so quite

possibly you are correct. And yet there are many other causative

factors as well, including schools that lack adequate adult

supervision.

Ergo, without further investigation, one cannot blame the parents

outright for bullying behavior.

At the moment, I am composing an extensive podcast on bullying, and

the research is quite startling.

Further studies indicate that bullying could be the result of

defective genes, too much testosterone in the system, watching too

much TV, having a diagnosed difference or disorder, and even being

tall.

Adults and children alike who have any one of the above criteria may

be a bully. Children, when faced with situations they deem

inescapable, may indeed respond to them in the manner in which this

6 year old did.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

" as for forcibly confine and charged.... The police were right. If

one

does not obey the laws and attack others with no justification, they

will be confined and charged... "

The operative words in the above comment are " with no justification. "

" If that little girl hit my daughter during her wild rampage..I

would insist on the charges and the confinement to the police

station. We have no idea what the facts were, why the child acted

like she did.. Being afraid is NOT enough. I would look to the home

as well as the school. There are not enough facts in teh report to

make up all these opinions about police school or parents.... or the

child... "

In my opinion, since I cannot know what preceded the incident

without witnessing it, I would, as the arresting officer, be forced

to arrest both your daughter and the assaulting child and charge

them both. The child on the grounds that she may have struck the

child, and for " resisting arrest " and your daughter based on the

possibility that she may have struck the main offender first.

Alternatively, I could have simply mentored both children by talking

to them, listening to them, comforting them, and letting them go.

It all depends on departmental policy.

But I think you would agree that I would prejudicing myself in favor

of your daughter if I did not acknowledge her possible role in the

affair and arrest her on grounds of suspicion of violence and bodily

harm to the other child.

Tom

Administrator

[Guest guest]

Raven do you call people who disagree with you trolls? Do you call

people you have attacked personally when you cannot discuss an issue,

trolls? I have tried to discuss this case but you took it to a

personal level by attacking me personally. This is a board about

Aspergers.. are you or are you not a person who has aspergers or are

you a parent of a child who has aspergers or both?

Why are you refusing to answer if you have aspergers or not?

" ... <snip> ... Raven has attacked me personally and

it

> seems like this is proof is one can't be right, be wrong in a loud

> voice and start bullying the person who disagrees. This alone

proves

> where bullying comes from ... <snip> ... "

>

> Oh really? Trolls have a way of behaving in similar fashion as you

> behave, ... claiming that things were posted that were not

> posted, twisting what was posted in order to make themselves look

like

> the victim.

>

> Read the police report word for word. You will see that the child

was

> not the little monster that you are painting her to be and nowhere

does

> it say that she is the product of poor parenting. It does,

however,

> speak loudly to the school's inability to react appropriately to a

6-

> year-old.

>

> Raven

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I will have to review subsequent posts to see what's going on

since people tend to reespond in the order in which posts are made.

I may respond to some of them in order to facilitate better relations

between members.

Tom

Administrator

Ok. I was excited when I signed on and saw all these posts and after

reading the first one or two I was going to respond with some of the

things that have happened at my mother's school.

However, this has gotten far too heated, so this thread is closed.