Re: My Checkup and a Question

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/27/04 2:12:16 PM, blackdogshaven@... writes:

In addition, just because a

particular therapy is dated, does not mean it is not effective.

True.

Just wanted people to know it was not a "new "breakthrough, but an old breakthrough.

There has been time for many studies to have been done on it.

I spent a year on the AP (antibiotic therapy) list and I am not very convinced.

They just call seem to call their flares "herxes" instead of flares, heh heh.

But again, I may try it myself someday.

Pris

The book for the extreme pig person -

This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.

Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips.

"Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"

www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/27/04 5:38:48 PM, saludo@... writes:

The important thing for everyone to remember is that if alternative medicine had a "cure," everyone would be on it. You can find "support" for almost anything you come up with, somewhere on the net, but those are anecdotal stories and not solid research. A lot of "feeling better" has to do with expectations and frame of mind. When well-designed studies are unable to show results, you might begin to wonder exactly what the effect of a treatment is -- how much of it is psychological? And if that's the case, maybe changing your attitude toward the disease would have just as much of an effect.

You said it better than I could have...

Pris

The book for the extreme pig person -

This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.

Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips.

"Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"

www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/27/04 7:32:01 PM, hvantuyl@... writes:

I think some people achieve clinical remission (call it a cure if you like) with Western medicine, Chinese medicine, diet and nutrition, or antibiotic therapy while others on the same regimen get no benefit. 

I think if you believe in the scientific method, you will not have much hope for antibiotic therapy or magenetic bracelets .

But it is important to read the actual studies yourself (not a "conclusion")..

Do a search for them on google....

Pris

The book for the extreme pig person -

This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.

Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips.

"Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"

www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

The important thing for everyone to remember is that if alternative medicine had a "cure," everyone would be on it. You can find "support" for almost anything you come up with, somewhere on the net, but those are anecdotal stories and not solid research. A lot of "feeling better" has to do with expectations and frame of mind. When well-designed studies are unable to show results, you might begin to wonder exactly what the effect of a treatment is -- how much of it is psychological? And if that's the case, maybe changing your attitude toward the disease would have just as much of an effect.

A healthy diet, exercise, enough sleep, and a positive outlook can go a long way towards making one feel better, no matter what the problem is.

----- Original Message ----- From: NELLIESTAR@...

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:28 PM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

In a message dated 6/27/04 2:12:16 PM, blackdogshaven@... writes:

In addition, just because aparticular therapy is dated, does not mean it is not effective. True.Just wanted people to know it was not a "new "breakthrough, but an old breakthrough.There has been time for many studies to have been done on it.I spent a year on the AP (antibiotic therapy) list and I am not very convinced.They just call seem to call their flares "herxes" instead of flares, heh heh.But again, I may try it myself someday.PrisThe book for the extreme pig person -This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips."Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/27/04 7:42:06 PM, Siwelyak@... writes:

There is no incentive for clinical trials with cheap drugs or with drugs that do not produce a patent type protection. 

Generic mino. is not supposed to work...

only the expensive patented drug.

Pris

The book for the extreme pig person -

This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.

Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips.

"Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"

www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately a clinical trial acceptable to the medical community costs a lot of money and the government doesn't pay for them. They are funded by the drug companies in hopes of getting patent protection on a drug that will return the cost of the trials plus the cost of trials that don't pan out plus a profit for the company. There is no incentive for clinical trials with cheap drugs or with drugs that do not produce a patent type protection. I agree that a lot of garbage is available to support copper bracelets and equally worthless "cures" but just because some anecdotal information is garbage does not mean that all of it is. I think some people achieve clinical remission (call it a cure if you like) with Western medicine, Chinese medicine, diet and nutrition, or antibiotic therapy while others on the same regimen get no benefit. Within Western medicine some people achieve clinical remission with plaquenil, sulfasalazine, methotrexate, arava, Enbrel, Kineret, Remicade, Humira or other medicines while others on the same medicines get no relief at all. Just because a treatment is not successful for some does not mean it will not be effective for others. My point is that we should rejoice in what is successful for us and not knock what is successful for others. God bless.

----- Original Message -----

From: Hasenstab

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 5:37 PM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

The important thing for everyone to remember is that if alternative medicine had a "cure," everyone would be on it. You can find "support" for almost anything you come up with, somewhere on the net, but those are anecdotal stories and not solid research. A lot of "feeling better" has to do with expectations and frame of mind. When well-designed studies are unable to show results, you might begin to wonder exactly what the effect of a treatment is -- how much of it is psychological? And if that's the case, maybe changing your attitude toward the disease would have just as much of an effect.

A healthy diet, exercise, enough sleep, and a positive outlook can go a long way towards making one feel better, no matter what the problem is.

----- Original Message ----- From: NELLIESTAR@...

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:28 PM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

In a message dated 6/27/04 2:12:16 PM, blackdogshaven@... writes:

In addition, just because aparticular therapy is dated, does not mean it is not effective. True.Just wanted people to know it was not a "new "breakthrough, but an old breakthrough.There has been time for many studies to have been done on it.I spent a year on the AP (antibiotic therapy) list and I am not very convinced.They just call seem to call their flares "herxes" instead of flares, heh heh.But again, I may try it myself someday.PrisThe book for the extreme pig person -This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips."Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

,

Go girl,, well put! I am your biggest cheerleader here and living

proof antibiotic therapy DOES work.

Seven year fighter of RA and VERY, VERY functional working fulltime

and taking care of family and house,.

Kay

----- Original Message -----

From: " karen fonseca " <blackdogshaven@...>

<Rheumatoid Arthritis >

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 4:15 PM

Subject: My Checkup and a Question

> > I spoke to my rheumie about this.

> > She said she will be glad to put me on it, but so far the studies do not

> > prove it works (more than the " placebo effect " )..

> > She has several patients on it.

> > I believe the therapy concept is pretty dated... Dr. Brown is long dead,

> I

> > think...

> > But if nothing else works, WHY NOT?

> > Pris

>

> Hi Pris,

>

> I chose antibiotic therapy before trying anything else for a number of

good

> reasons. First, the side effects are almost non-existent and at worst

> minimal and second, it made sense. Since an infection triggered my RA,

> possibly an antibiotic is what is needed.

>

> Also, just because the placebo effect does not work for this type of

> therapy does not mean that it is still not a valid therapy. From what I

> have read the main problem with AT is that since it works differently on

> everyone, including the length of time that it takes to work, it is hard

to

> measure with these types of studies. In addition, just because a

> particular therapy is dated, does not mean it is not effective. The

> Chinese have used acupuncture for 3500 years in basically the same manner

> in which it is used today. It is still a highly effective therapy for

many

> ailments, including pain management for osteoarthritis. I have personally

> used acupuncture a number of times and the results are astounding.

>

> I am not in way trying to be arbitrary here, but just because a particular

> therapy is not the latest popular drug being handed out, does not make it

> ineffective at all, and many doctors refuse to think out of the box.

>

> Dr.Brown may be long gone, but there are many following in his footsteps.

>

> Finally, if the folks at the Road Back Foundation were not on to

something,

> why would a medical researcher from Harvard Medical School (where they are

> studying AT) agree to be their honorary advisor. I am very new to this

> disease, but I am doing my homework. I have talked to a few people

> connected with road back who are on AT. It took enormous patience, but

> they have gotten results.

>

> I will keep everyone posted on my progress.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Harold,

That was very well put and I hope for less pain and some good relief for all,

Kay

----- Original Message -----

From: Harold Van Tuyl

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 9:06 PM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

Unfortunately a clinical trial acceptable to the medical community costs a lot of money and the government doesn't pay for them. They are funded by the drug companies in hopes of getting patent protection on a drug that will return the cost of the trials plus the cost of trials that don't pan out plus a profit for the company. There is no incentive for clinical trials with cheap drugs or with drugs that do not produce a patent type protection. I agree that a lot of garbage is available to support copper bracelets and equally worthless "cures" but just because some anecdotal information is garbage does not mean that all of it is. I think some people achieve clinical remission (call it a cure if you like) with Western medicine, Chinese medicine, diet and nutrition, or antibiotic therapy while others on the same regimen get no benefit. Within Western medicine some people achieve clinical remission with plaquenil, sulfasalazine, methotrexate, arava, Enbrel, Kineret, Remicade, Humira or other medicines while others on the same medicines get no relief at all. Just because a treatment is not successful for some does not mean it will not be effective for others. My point is that we should rejoice in what is successful for us and not knock what is successful for others. God bless.

----- Original Message -----

From: Hasenstab

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 5:37 PM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

The important thing for everyone to remember is that if alternative medicine had a "cure," everyone would be on it. You can find "support" for almost anything you come up with, somewhere on the net, but those are anecdotal stories and not solid research. A lot of "feeling better" has to do with expectations and frame of mind. When well-designed studies are unable to show results, you might begin to wonder exactly what the effect of a treatment is -- how much of it is psychological? And if that's the case, maybe changing your attitude toward the disease would have just as much of an effect.

A healthy diet, exercise, enough sleep, and a positive outlook can go a long way towards making one feel better, no matter what the problem is.

----- Original Message ----- From: NELLIESTAR@...

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:28 PM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

In a message dated 6/27/04 2:12:16 PM, blackdogshaven@... writes:

In addition, just because aparticular therapy is dated, does not mean it is not effective. True.Just wanted people to know it was not a "new "breakthrough, but an old breakthrough.There has been time for many studies to have been done on it.I spent a year on the AP (antibiotic therapy) list and I am not very convinced.They just call seem to call their flares "herxes" instead of flares, heh heh.But again, I may try it myself someday.PrisThe book for the extreme pig person -This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips."Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

I am a firm believer in the scientific method because I was a research scientist and before I retired I had up to about 20 PhDs working for me doing both basic and applied research. The conclusions of the study in the final report are not nearly as important as the methodology used in the investigation. If much is discarded in setting up a study the study has limited value no matter how well written the final document is.

----- Original Message -----

From: NELLIESTAR@...

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:49 PM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

In a message dated 6/27/04 7:32:01 PM, hvantuyl@... writes:

I think some people achieve clinical remission (call it a cure if you like) with Western medicine, Chinese medicine, diet and nutrition, or antibiotic therapy while others on the same regimen get no benefit. I think if you believe in the scientific method, you will not have much hope for antibiotic therapy or magenetic bracelets .But it is important to read the actual studies yourself (not a "conclusion")..Do a search for them on google....PrisThe book for the extreme pig person -This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips."Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/28/04 5:18:17 AM, saludo@... writes:

I began taking fish oil(Coromega) two months ago.

,

how much are you taking per day?

I agree with your post.

It's called "cause and effect".

People get a flu shot and if they come down with something (like the measles) they blame it on the flu shot, although there is no evidence that it causes that.

Or, their arthritis gets better so they think drinking apple juice is a cure!

Pris

The book for the extreme pig person -

This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.

Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips.

"Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"

www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

Before we really start bickering, let's remember that there have been some well-designed studies done on many of the alternative methods. If there are no significant results, that does not mean the study was flawed. The bottom line is that we *all* need to check the research and try not to present alternative treatments, i.e. antibiotic therapy, diet, copper bracelets, as "miracle" cures. It gives false hope to people and exhausts the savings of those who are on limited incomes. And it's cruel.

I began taking fish oil(Coromega) two months ago. Concurrently, I experienced about six weeks of almost no symptoms whatsoever -- more mobility than I've had in years. I'm having a flare right now -- who knows? Coincidence? Very easily could be. I'm not about to post here and tell everyone to run out and buy it so that they too can be symptom free. There are at least ten variables in there that could affect it either way. Until you learn how to control variables and measure changes, using yourself as an informal research subject just isn't accurate.

Because "a" happens when you do "b" does not mean that "b" is the cause of "a."

----- Original Message ----- From: Harold Van Tuyl

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 12:29 AM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

I am a firm believer in the scientific method because I was a research scientist and before I retired I had up to about 20 PhDs working for me doing both basic and applied research. The conclusions of the study in the final report are not nearly as important as the methodology used in the investigation. If much is discarded in setting up a study the study has limited value no matter how well written the final document is.

----- Original Message -----

From: NELLIESTAR@...

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:49 PM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

In a message dated 6/27/04 7:32:01 PM, hvantuyl@... writes:

I think some people achieve clinical remission (call it a cure if you like) with Western medicine, Chinese medicine, diet and nutrition, or antibiotic therapy while others on the same regimen get no benefit. I think if you believe in the scientific method, you will not have much hope for antibiotic therapy or magenetic bracelets .But it is important to read the actual studies yourself (not a "conclusion")..Do a search for them on google....PrisThe book for the extreme pig person -This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips."Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

I think what some are missing is AT *is* traditional therapy. While

I am not one to poo poo a particular modality, ie, homeoapthy or

other alternative care such as magnetic or copper bracelets as I

think what Harold said is true what works for some may not work for

others. However, AT does not fit in there. There are

Rheumatologists practicing AT all over the country.

If AT does not work for me, I may have to go to the more powerful

drugs and am fully prepared to do that. It is just that I felt I

would go with the traditional therapy that did the least harm first

and hope for results.

I too believe as others have said that attitude towards this disease

means very much. I had my initial pity parties and then stopped. I

think the more positive I can be mentally, the more positive I will

be physically. I try not to even think about having RA at all. I

love to do home remodel projects and have continued to do so. If my

hands hurt, oh well. I tell myself to get over it.

I also agree that diet and exercise are critical.

[Guest guest]

It comes in little packets, and I take just one a day. It's in an orange creamy base, and doesn't have any fishy taste at all, and no after taste, either. You'll probably have to do a 'net search on 'Coromega' to see who carries it in your area. You can't find it everywhere.

The only thing I can say is that when I eat a lot, I get fatter. There seems to be a direct correlation there, but it might take more experimentation. I'm in the middle of a study right now.

----- Original Message ----- From: NELLIESTAR@...

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 10:58 AM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

In a message dated 6/28/04 5:18:17 AM, saludo@... writes:

I began taking fish oil(Coromega) two months ago.,how much are you taking per day?I agree with your post.It's called "cause and effect".People get a flu shot and if they come down with something (like the measles) they blame it on the flu shot, although there is no evidence that it causes that.Or, their arthritis gets better so they think drinking apple juice is a cure!PrisThe book for the extreme pig person -This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips."Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

Very true. And we all know that what works for one may not work for another.

Look at diets as a good example...

Hugs, Jacy

~Sacred cows make the best hamburger

jacymail@...IM: jacygal - ICQ: 96949087www.geocities.com/mtn_rose

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-----Original Message-----From: Hasenstab [mailto:saludo@...]Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 06:09Rheumatoid Arthritis Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

Before we really start bickering, let's remember that there have been some well-designed studies done on many of the alternative methods. If there are no significant results, that does not mean the study was flawed. The bottom line is that we *all* need to check the research and try not to present alternative treatments, i.e. antibiotic therapy, diet, copper bracelets, as "miracle" cures. It gives false hope to people and exhausts the savings of those who are on limited incomes. And it's cruel.

I began taking fish oil(Coromega) two months ago. Concurrently, I experienced about six weeks of almost no symptoms whatsoever -- more mobility than I've had in years. I'm having a flare right now -- who knows? Coincidence? Very easily could be. I'm not about to post here and tell everyone to run out and buy it so that they too can be symptom free. There are at least ten variables in there that could affect it either way. Until you learn how to control variables and measure changes, using yourself as an informal research subject just isn't accurate.

Because "a" happens when you do "b" does not mean that "b" is the cause of "a."

----- Original Message ----- From: Harold Van Tuyl

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 12:29 AM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

I am a firm believer in the scientific method because I was a research scientist and before I retired I had up to about 20 PhDs working for me doing both basic and applied research. The conclusions of the study in the final report are not nearly as important as the methodology used in the investigation. If much is discarded in setting up a study the study has limited value no matter how well written the final document is.

----- Original Message -----

From: NELLIESTAR@...

Rheumatoid Arthritis

Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:49 PM

Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

In a message dated 6/27/04 7:32:01 PM, hvantuyl@... writes:

I think some people achieve clinical remission (call it a cure if you like) with Western medicine, Chinese medicine, diet and nutrition, or antibiotic therapy while others on the same regimen get no benefit. I think if you believe in the scientific method, you will not have much hope for antibiotic therapy or magenetic bracelets .But it is important to read the actual studies yourself (not a "conclusion")..Do a search for them on google....PrisThe book for the extreme pig person -This is not Pighood 101, it's a step beyond "how to" books.Color photos, problem solving, tricks, aggression tips."Potbellied Pig Behavior and Training"www.valentinesperformingpigs.com

[Guest guest]

said: The only thing I can say is that when I eat a lot, I get fatter. There seems to be a direct correlation there, but it might take more experimentation. I'm in the middle of a study right now.

Now that's funny!

Hugs, Jacy

~Sacred cows make the best hamburger

jacymail@...IM: jacygal - ICQ: 96949087www.geocities.com/mtn_rose

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Want a signature like this?

-----Original Message-----From: Hasenstab [mailto:saludo@...]Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 09:09Rheumatoid Arthritis Subject: Re: My Checkup and a Question

It comes in little packets, and I take just one a day. It's in an orange creamy base, and doesn't have any fishy taste at all, and no after taste, either. You'll probably have to do a 'net search on 'Coromega' to see who carries it in your area. You can't find it everywhere.

The only thing I can say is that when I eat a lot, I get fatter. There seems to be a direct correlation there, but it might take more experimentation. I'm in the middle of a study right now.

[Guest guest]

Hi Pris,

> It's called " cause and effect " .

> People get a flu shot and if they come down with something (like

the measles) they blame it on the flu shot, although there is no

evidence that it causes

> that.>

Ahhh, but there can easily be a correlation between the two. When a

flu shot or any other form of vaccine is given, it requires an immune

response to fight the flu that is being given to the body from the

shot. When an already compromised immune system is given a flu shot,

that individual can become ill. It can and does happen. Does it

happen all the time, of course not. But it can.

So, to go back to your example, the individual who contracts measles

immediately after getting a flu shot *may* already have a compromised

immune system or one that is not functioning at its best thereby

opening the door for the person to contract measles or a cold or

whatever. This is not alternative thinking at all.

< Or, their arthritis gets better so they think drinking apple juice

is a cure!>

While I certainly agree apple juice curing arthritis is a stretch, I

think that the more we educate ourselves, the better off we are.

Just like 's fish oil. Will it cure RA, I sincerely doubt it.

But, sources high in Omega3s (such as Salmon, Mackeral and other fish

body oils) are natural anti-inflammatories. So, they certainly may

*help* with inflammation. I also take fish oil, 2000mg 2 times

daily, with food as it can cause gastric upset.